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On June 30 2026 10:42 BluemoonSC wrote:Show nested quote +On June 30 2026 10:04 ProTech wrote:On June 30 2026 09:59 WombaT wrote:
Wow almost like he was a teenager not playing full time pro or something… soO had already called him as a great talent before LoTV even dropped
In your games? In 17 years? Maybe people got better? Maybe your ceiling isn’t actually that high and you got overtaken?
Maybe strategic divergence got squashed simply because an iteration of the game has existed for over a decade, and much longer than its forebears?
I think your position is overall nonsensical and you seem to be cramming everything into a pre-determined position you’re immovable on but what I can tell you as a player who has no race bias as i am a random player, I can very clearly see skill expression returning to the game on average With all due respect, any time I've tuned into your stream in the last few days, as a terran youve done nothing but 2 rax reaper. If we cant keep this thread on track, ill go ahead and lock it. There are other places to debate the 12 worker start.
I play plenty of macro games, just gotta be tuned in at the right time.
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Northern Ireland27070 Posts
On June 30 2026 13:00 Poopi wrote:
What do you mean asking AI to estimate the playerbase?
I can’t come up with something as bad to do so
The numbers are purely and simply made up
Yesterday tournaments were pretty clear though, it seems that Z>P=T (or >T, but we need more data)
Several results were dubious
Yeah the auld Zoigs still feel a bit overtuned production wise even with the larvae rate being cut a bit again for this live patch
I’m not against a bit of a boost to make things work with the eco changes, but it’s pretty obvious not enough time was given to find the sweet spot, and aside from those changes more time in general was needed to work out the kinks of this patch.
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On June 30 2026 02:10 deacon.frost wrote:Show nested quote +On June 29 2026 22:34 Creager wrote:On June 29 2026 20:45 Poopi wrote:On June 29 2026 20:32 ProTech wrote:On June 29 2026 20:04 Harris1st wrote:On June 29 2026 17:30 ProTech wrote:On June 29 2026 17:20 Agh wrote:On June 29 2026 14:38 ProTech wrote:
LoTV econ created an atmosphere that would typically turn metas into not only a pretty boring playing experience, but also a very very boring viewing experience. Take is pretty useless since it's subjective -- playing there is no impact, however It's hard to argue the viewing experience not suffering as it's not only painfully slow but the build orders are more telegraphed to boot. On June 29 2026 14:38 ProTech wrote:
IMO players were just able to gain too much information, and defenders advantage was way too strong because of the blown up eco, thus creating the situation we had for 11 years. ???. Your reasoning is contradictory. We have almost complete information now since viable opening are more limited in comparison. Throw that on top of the abundant overlord perches, innate hallucination, reaper & worker paths and nobody is getting surprised. I think defending is the easiest it has even been in the history of the game. We have lower unit counts and responsibilities with the ability to fine tailor reactions based on scouting. This is pretty much entirely in direct correlation with reduced worker start. I'd be genuinely curious if anyone else believes that a higher worker somehow makes defending easier. The only thing this patch added was a handful of committed all-ins/cheeses that really only punish openers which are more or less not even viable. Pressuring and harassment builds now generally require much deeper investment (both initial and transition), and the opportunity cost doesn't really align with what players are able to scout and infer in a 16 year old game. I find it pretty amusing how mixed the reactions are to the patch. I personally have always thought the game was too fast, and I think most people share that sentiment on both sides, especially those adamantly for the lower count. Everyone got too lost in the sauce of warpgate and larva changes to play around with the idea of perhaps a fractionally slower game speed or perhaps even a nerf to mining be it speed or value. because everyone is still using LoTV builds, in Wol/hots economy. Everyone is raging, and I'm over here having a blast because I'm using old WoL/HoTS playstyle, and it's working. It won't be until the playerbase figures out how to actually play this eco setting before you really start to understand the ramifications that high eco had on the game. Regardless, there really is no point in complaining about it because the playerbase numbers have it an all-time low, there is no choice but the change the game, if you even want an attempt at restoring its playerbase or esport/twitch viewership numbers. catering to the ragers is probably the absolute worst thing they could do right now, because all the players who used to like starcraft have left. Where are you even getting your numbers from? As far as I can tell, all your number for player base are "trust me bro" to support whatever you are argueing for or against https://nonapa.com/teamsSeason 2 of LoTV was the previous all time low up until a few seasons ago where it had a new all-time low. What's funny about that is that any coherent thinker would be able to discern from those numbers that the worker change was not in anyway accepted by the wol/hots playerbase. It’s very naïve to think that the playerbase shrank because of worker change. If anything, LotV was a better game than WoL/HotS in virtually any patch (yeah tankivacs were silly and fun, much better than late WoL or basically the entire HotS with either swarm host snoozefests, boring mech meta or broken blink stalkers) This is such an arrogant statement to make... If anything, LotV became a faster game, which allowed players to enter the midgame basically instantly for bigger army interactions at an earlier timing, but 'better' is not really the way I'd frame it. I personally prefer slower build-up, turtling and mech. That puts me in a tiny minority, I suppose, but the game allowing me to express my preferred playstyle to a certain degree is objectively speaking a better game, since it gives players more distinct identities. Streamlining everything to the extend LotV did (and still does with some QoL "improvements") makes shit "boring" just the same. Every god damn expansion got faster than the previous, more harassment options, more options to nuke mineral lines, more AOEs. SC2 wont get slower and lowering the starting numbers of workers is just a placebo, especially considering casual viewers dont like that. (Winter talked about how he saw improved viewer numbers when his videos started 2minutes into the game(pre-patch))
I know that we live in a different landscape today and that popularity is the most important metric many people care about, but I personally don't believe in viewership as a reliable indicator of the health OR quality of a game, because they have no direct correlation, especially when the game is in year 16 of it's lifecycle AND especially when bringing up casual viewers in this context.
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On June 29 2026 23:21 WombaT wrote:Show nested quote +On June 29 2026 22:34 Creager wrote:On June 29 2026 20:45 Poopi wrote:On June 29 2026 20:32 ProTech wrote:On June 29 2026 20:04 Harris1st wrote:On June 29 2026 17:30 ProTech wrote:On June 29 2026 17:20 Agh wrote:On June 29 2026 14:38 ProTech wrote:
LoTV econ created an atmosphere that would typically turn metas into not only a pretty boring playing experience, but also a very very boring viewing experience. Take is pretty useless since it's subjective -- playing there is no impact, however It's hard to argue the viewing experience not suffering as it's not only painfully slow but the build orders are more telegraphed to boot. On June 29 2026 14:38 ProTech wrote:
IMO players were just able to gain too much information, and defenders advantage was way too strong because of the blown up eco, thus creating the situation we had for 11 years. ???. Your reasoning is contradictory. We have almost complete information now since viable opening are more limited in comparison. Throw that on top of the abundant overlord perches, innate hallucination, reaper & worker paths and nobody is getting surprised. I think defending is the easiest it has even been in the history of the game. We have lower unit counts and responsibilities with the ability to fine tailor reactions based on scouting. This is pretty much entirely in direct correlation with reduced worker start. I'd be genuinely curious if anyone else believes that a higher worker somehow makes defending easier. The only thing this patch added was a handful of committed all-ins/cheeses that really only punish openers which are more or less not even viable. Pressuring and harassment builds now generally require much deeper investment (both initial and transition), and the opportunity cost doesn't really align with what players are able to scout and infer in a 16 year old game. I find it pretty amusing how mixed the reactions are to the patch. I personally have always thought the game was too fast, and I think most people share that sentiment on both sides, especially those adamantly for the lower count. Everyone got too lost in the sauce of warpgate and larva changes to play around with the idea of perhaps a fractionally slower game speed or perhaps even a nerf to mining be it speed or value. because everyone is still using LoTV builds, in Wol/hots economy. Everyone is raging, and I'm over here having a blast because I'm using old WoL/HoTS playstyle, and it's working. It won't be until the playerbase figures out how to actually play this eco setting before you really start to understand the ramifications that high eco had on the game. Regardless, there really is no point in complaining about it because the playerbase numbers have it an all-time low, there is no choice but the change the game, if you even want an attempt at restoring its playerbase or esport/twitch viewership numbers. catering to the ragers is probably the absolute worst thing they could do right now, because all the players who used to like starcraft have left. Where are you even getting your numbers from? As far as I can tell, all your number for player base are "trust me bro" to support whatever you are argueing for or against https://nonapa.com/teamsSeason 2 of LoTV was the previous all time low up until a few seasons ago where it had a new all-time low. What's funny about that is that any coherent thinker would be able to discern from those numbers that the worker change was not in anyway accepted by the wol/hots playerbase. It’s very naïve to think that the playerbase shrank because of worker change. If anything, LotV was a better game than WoL/HotS in virtually any patch (yeah tankivacs were silly and fun, much better than late WoL or basically the entire HotS with either swarm host snoozefests, boring mech meta or broken blink stalkers) This is such an arrogant statement to make... If anything, LotV became a faster game, which allowed players to enter the midgame basically instantly for bigger army interactions at an earlier timing, but 'better' is not really the way I'd frame it. I personally prefer slower build-up, turtling and mech. That puts me in a tiny minority, I suppose, but the game allowing me to express my preferred playstyle to a certain degree is objectively speaking a better game, since it gives players more distinct identities. Streamlining everything to the extend LotV did (and still does with some QoL "improvements") makes shit "boring" just the same. I wouldn’t say Poopi’s statement is arrogant. I personally preferred the eco and pacing pre-Legacy, but equally there were some awful, frustrating metas in those games too that are worth acknowledging I think the arrogance I’ve encountered is people saying ‘the thing I dislike is definitely the reason for player counts dropping’ while lacking the receipts to make such claims.
Fair point, I suppose, I just heavily disliked the patronizing phrasing in the post, hence my wording. All in all I agree with you and ZG and everybody else that argued that things have to be viewed in context, of course. I also don't want to further derail the thread, but I just wanted to clarify this.
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SoCal8930 Posts
Larva spawn rate going from 9.5 to 9.9 with the hotfix patch.
Hopefully we're closer to putting this conversation to bed so that we can determine what else needs to be looked at with the economy changes.
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Of course it was a hotfix, any rational human who actually plays the game at a decent level could see that it was beyond broken.
There was so much rage with that and im over rolling my eyes, its not something to rage about with how comical it was.
I can also tell you that the hotfix will not be enough and it will need to be tweaked again.
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EPT
