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On June 28 2026 01:31 BluemoonSC wrote:Show nested quote +On June 27 2026 19:24 Athenau wrote:On June 27 2026 12:31 BluemoonSC wrote:On June 27 2026 12:05 tigera6 wrote:On June 27 2026 05:37 BluemoonSC wrote:On June 26 2026 14:42 tigera6 wrote:On June 26 2026 13:42 BluemoonSC wrote:
I understand what the larva change means.
But being upset that youre forced to push the zerg so they cant play as greedy (no matter what the margins are) is a crazy take.
That would be true of any race that is wearing the pants during a given balance patch. You are not addressing my point, I am not upset that other races have to play aggressive against Zerg, I am confused they have to make the patch such that its now HARDER to do so. And giving Zerg an easier time with all those buff, not just the larvae change with also cheaper Carapace, better and quicker Microbial Shroud. I wasn't addressing your point because I was addressing someone claiming zerg can max out by 7:30 on live. but if you insist. I am not 100% convinced that the larva change on live is as bad as people are making it out to be. It's not as bad as PTR, Queens are still 175, hatches are back to 300, and they still have to spend a drone to make structures. I also don't think that the "it'll be the same builds but 30s slower" crowd is entirely correct because it seems to me that people are not applying enough pressure to zergs, allowing them to freely drone, when they should be pressuring z into make something other than drones. We'll see continued evolution of XvZ openers until build orders get ironed out with the changes. Especially while protoss figure out new timings. I'm personally looking forward to watching the meta develop. Its easy to say "people should apply more pressure" without telling how to do it better, all I know is that Zerg has an easier time to survive past the midgame with the balance change, Protoss has to re-learn their entire early build (could be better or worse) while Terran stay relatively the same. Also the timing is weird, we have the Final 4 of a 20k tournament about in start in less than 12hrs but lets ask the pro to "figure the meta", sure thanks. I don't disagree with you that its frustrating to have to relearn your entire economy and production as protoss (i pointed this out as a major issue accompanying economic changes early in the ptr) but in all of the gameplay on live that I've watched, ive seen greedy, prior patch builds by p/t against Zerg. Literally today, Heromarine went reactor hellion, 3cc, cloaked banshee, +1/+1 bio and was upset that the zerg had 6 mutas out by the time he did all that and switched in to 8 rax marine production (he scouted the spire before it was completed). He still parried the mutas and won the game with only a few worker differential by the time mutas were out. Transport me back into a time before 12 workers and I'd say it would be crazy for a terran to be able to tech and expand so aggressively without being punished. All I'm saying is I am not 100% convinced that the larva is "broken" quite yet based on what I've been watching - it is definitely strong though! Have you seen different experiences on live? Two things can be true too - both tournaments should probably be using a mod to bring things back to the previous patch and not play on live bc it is unreasonable to expect they are prepared enough to play their best starcraft. This is the most sc2 fppov ive watched in a decade though, so I am here for all of this. I'm curious as to why non-Zerg players should have to "adjust" to solve a problem that Blizzard created while Zerg players can blithely continue doing what they were doing before, except now they do it better relative to everyone else. The entire game of starcraft is about problem solving, especially when a new patch comes out. You could make this argument about any one balance patch/change. Zerg has had plenty of these "adjustment" moments throughout starcraft history as well. Ill also say that after some ladder last night, zerg players need to adjust too. Hatch first isnt "free" anymore.
First assertion, that starcraft is about problem solving is factually wrong. It is more a mechanical game than anything else, which has little to do with problem solving.
Zergs never had their core production mechanic (inject), removed or made it so that only in the late game it would make sense to press it (or make it cost money once / queen). It is completely ridiculous what happened with warpgate tech. Protoss is the new terran in terms of production style and this benefits only Clem and demolishes years of muscle memory for protosses.
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On June 29 2026 12:36 Xsnac1 wrote:Show nested quote +On June 28 2026 01:31 BluemoonSC wrote:On June 27 2026 19:24 Athenau wrote:On June 27 2026 12:31 BluemoonSC wrote:On June 27 2026 12:05 tigera6 wrote:On June 27 2026 05:37 BluemoonSC wrote:On June 26 2026 14:42 tigera6 wrote:On June 26 2026 13:42 BluemoonSC wrote:
I understand what the larva change means.
But being upset that youre forced to push the zerg so they cant play as greedy (no matter what the margins are) is a crazy take.
That would be true of any race that is wearing the pants during a given balance patch. You are not addressing my point, I am not upset that other races have to play aggressive against Zerg, I am confused they have to make the patch such that its now HARDER to do so. And giving Zerg an easier time with all those buff, not just the larvae change with also cheaper Carapace, better and quicker Microbial Shroud. I wasn't addressing your point because I was addressing someone claiming zerg can max out by 7:30 on live. but if you insist. I am not 100% convinced that the larva change on live is as bad as people are making it out to be. It's not as bad as PTR, Queens are still 175, hatches are back to 300, and they still have to spend a drone to make structures. I also don't think that the "it'll be the same builds but 30s slower" crowd is entirely correct because it seems to me that people are not applying enough pressure to zergs, allowing them to freely drone, when they should be pressuring z into make something other than drones. We'll see continued evolution of XvZ openers until build orders get ironed out with the changes. Especially while protoss figure out new timings. I'm personally looking forward to watching the meta develop. Its easy to say "people should apply more pressure" without telling how to do it better, all I know is that Zerg has an easier time to survive past the midgame with the balance change, Protoss has to re-learn their entire early build (could be better or worse) while Terran stay relatively the same. Also the timing is weird, we have the Final 4 of a 20k tournament about in start in less than 12hrs but lets ask the pro to "figure the meta", sure thanks. I don't disagree with you that its frustrating to have to relearn your entire economy and production as protoss (i pointed this out as a major issue accompanying economic changes early in the ptr) but in all of the gameplay on live that I've watched, ive seen greedy, prior patch builds by p/t against Zerg. Literally today, Heromarine went reactor hellion, 3cc, cloaked banshee, +1/+1 bio and was upset that the zerg had 6 mutas out by the time he did all that and switched in to 8 rax marine production (he scouted the spire before it was completed). He still parried the mutas and won the game with only a few worker differential by the time mutas were out. Transport me back into a time before 12 workers and I'd say it would be crazy for a terran to be able to tech and expand so aggressively without being punished. All I'm saying is I am not 100% convinced that the larva is "broken" quite yet based on what I've been watching - it is definitely strong though! Have you seen different experiences on live? Two things can be true too - both tournaments should probably be using a mod to bring things back to the previous patch and not play on live bc it is unreasonable to expect they are prepared enough to play their best starcraft. This is the most sc2 fppov ive watched in a decade though, so I am here for all of this. I'm curious as to why non-Zerg players should have to "adjust" to solve a problem that Blizzard created while Zerg players can blithely continue doing what they were doing before, except now they do it better relative to everyone else. The entire game of starcraft is about problem solving, especially when a new patch comes out. You could make this argument about any one balance patch/change. Zerg has had plenty of these "adjustment" moments throughout starcraft history as well. Ill also say that after some ladder last night, zerg players need to adjust too. Hatch first isnt "free" anymore. First assertion, that starcraft is about problem solving is factually wrong. It is more a mechanical game than anything else, which has little to do with problem solving. Zergs never had their core production mechanic (inject), removed or made it so that only in the late game it would make sense to press it (or make it cost money once / queen). It is completely ridiculous what happened with warpgate tech. Protoss is the new terran in terms of production style and this benefits only Clem and demolishes years of muscle memory for protosses.
Real time strategy absolutely involved problem solving, and it always did, up until 12 workers.
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LOTV economy and 12 worker start absolutely turned the game into a crazy mechanics fest rather than a strategical game no clue how people are so blind to this
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On June 29 2026 14:30 Artemis2 wrote:
LOTV economy and 12 worker start absolutely turned the game into a crazy mechanics fest rather than a strategical game no clue how people are so blind to this
Kind of sort of, it's a little weird to talk about.
LoTV econ created an atmosphere that would typically turn metas into not only a pretty boring playing experience, but also a very very boring viewing experience.
IMO players were just able to gain too much information, and defenders advantage was way too strong because of the blown up eco, thus creating the situation we had for 11 years.
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France12957 Posts
On June 29 2026 14:13 ProTech wrote:Show nested quote +On June 29 2026 12:36 Xsnac1 wrote:On June 28 2026 01:31 BluemoonSC wrote:On June 27 2026 19:24 Athenau wrote:On June 27 2026 12:31 BluemoonSC wrote:On June 27 2026 12:05 tigera6 wrote:On June 27 2026 05:37 BluemoonSC wrote:On June 26 2026 14:42 tigera6 wrote:On June 26 2026 13:42 BluemoonSC wrote:
I understand what the larva change means.
But being upset that youre forced to push the zerg so they cant play as greedy (no matter what the margins are) is a crazy take.
That would be true of any race that is wearing the pants during a given balance patch. You are not addressing my point, I am not upset that other races have to play aggressive against Zerg, I am confused they have to make the patch such that its now HARDER to do so. And giving Zerg an easier time with all those buff, not just the larvae change with also cheaper Carapace, better and quicker Microbial Shroud. I wasn't addressing your point because I was addressing someone claiming zerg can max out by 7:30 on live. but if you insist. I am not 100% convinced that the larva change on live is as bad as people are making it out to be. It's not as bad as PTR, Queens are still 175, hatches are back to 300, and they still have to spend a drone to make structures. I also don't think that the "it'll be the same builds but 30s slower" crowd is entirely correct because it seems to me that people are not applying enough pressure to zergs, allowing them to freely drone, when they should be pressuring z into make something other than drones. We'll see continued evolution of XvZ openers until build orders get ironed out with the changes. Especially while protoss figure out new timings. I'm personally looking forward to watching the meta develop. Its easy to say "people should apply more pressure" without telling how to do it better, all I know is that Zerg has an easier time to survive past the midgame with the balance change, Protoss has to re-learn their entire early build (could be better or worse) while Terran stay relatively the same. Also the timing is weird, we have the Final 4 of a 20k tournament about in start in less than 12hrs but lets ask the pro to "figure the meta", sure thanks. I don't disagree with you that its frustrating to have to relearn your entire economy and production as protoss (i pointed this out as a major issue accompanying economic changes early in the ptr) but in all of the gameplay on live that I've watched, ive seen greedy, prior patch builds by p/t against Zerg. Literally today, Heromarine went reactor hellion, 3cc, cloaked banshee, +1/+1 bio and was upset that the zerg had 6 mutas out by the time he did all that and switched in to 8 rax marine production (he scouted the spire before it was completed). He still parried the mutas and won the game with only a few worker differential by the time mutas were out. Transport me back into a time before 12 workers and I'd say it would be crazy for a terran to be able to tech and expand so aggressively without being punished. All I'm saying is I am not 100% convinced that the larva is "broken" quite yet based on what I've been watching - it is definitely strong though! Have you seen different experiences on live? Two things can be true too - both tournaments should probably be using a mod to bring things back to the previous patch and not play on live bc it is unreasonable to expect they are prepared enough to play their best starcraft. This is the most sc2 fppov ive watched in a decade though, so I am here for all of this. I'm curious as to why non-Zerg players should have to "adjust" to solve a problem that Blizzard created while Zerg players can blithely continue doing what they were doing before, except now they do it better relative to everyone else. The entire game of starcraft is about problem solving, especially when a new patch comes out. You could make this argument about any one balance patch/change. Zerg has had plenty of these "adjustment" moments throughout starcraft history as well. Ill also say that after some ladder last night, zerg players need to adjust too. Hatch first isnt "free" anymore. First assertion, that starcraft is about problem solving is factually wrong. It is more a mechanical game than anything else, which has little to do with problem solving. Zergs never had their core production mechanic (inject), removed or made it so that only in the late game it would make sense to press it (or make it cost money once / queen). It is completely ridiculous what happened with warpgate tech. Protoss is the new terran in terms of production style and this benefits only Clem and demolishes years of muscle memory for protosses. Real time strategy absolutely involved problem solving, and it always did, up until 12 workers.
Even in HotS and WoL the game was a test of mechanical ability rather than strategical (outside the very beginning of patches maybe), as it should
The number of workers didn’t change that fact
Sure you could get away with lesser mechanics like sOs, but it had more to do with protoss than the extension, albeit it was indeed exacerbated in LotV (which is a good thing, being fast and precise is what StarCraft is about, if you want pure strategy play chess and go)
But it’s a very good thing that the game is about mechanics -> everyone can be « strateg1cal!! », it does not take a special person in terms of talent
Whereas the mechanicals gods like Clem / Reynor / Serral and the top KR players are mythical creatures with a lot of training + talent to achieve the mechanical excellence to shine in as good of a game as sc2 (LotV, WoL quickly became horrible with BL infestor and HotS started with the most boring competitive games ever with swarm host)
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On June 29 2026 15:11 Poopi wrote:Show nested quote +On June 29 2026 14:13 ProTech wrote:On June 29 2026 12:36 Xsnac1 wrote:On June 28 2026 01:31 BluemoonSC wrote:On June 27 2026 19:24 Athenau wrote:On June 27 2026 12:31 BluemoonSC wrote:On June 27 2026 12:05 tigera6 wrote:On June 27 2026 05:37 BluemoonSC wrote:On June 26 2026 14:42 tigera6 wrote:On June 26 2026 13:42 BluemoonSC wrote:
I understand what the larva change means.
But being upset that youre forced to push the zerg so they cant play as greedy (no matter what the margins are) is a crazy take.
That would be true of any race that is wearing the pants during a given balance patch. You are not addressing my point, I am not upset that other races have to play aggressive against Zerg, I am confused they have to make the patch such that its now HARDER to do so. And giving Zerg an easier time with all those buff, not just the larvae change with also cheaper Carapace, better and quicker Microbial Shroud. I wasn't addressing your point because I was addressing someone claiming zerg can max out by 7:30 on live. but if you insist. I am not 100% convinced that the larva change on live is as bad as people are making it out to be. It's not as bad as PTR, Queens are still 175, hatches are back to 300, and they still have to spend a drone to make structures. I also don't think that the "it'll be the same builds but 30s slower" crowd is entirely correct because it seems to me that people are not applying enough pressure to zergs, allowing them to freely drone, when they should be pressuring z into make something other than drones. We'll see continued evolution of XvZ openers until build orders get ironed out with the changes. Especially while protoss figure out new timings. I'm personally looking forward to watching the meta develop. Its easy to say "people should apply more pressure" without telling how to do it better, all I know is that Zerg has an easier time to survive past the midgame with the balance change, Protoss has to re-learn their entire early build (could be better or worse) while Terran stay relatively the same. Also the timing is weird, we have the Final 4 of a 20k tournament about in start in less than 12hrs but lets ask the pro to "figure the meta", sure thanks. I don't disagree with you that its frustrating to have to relearn your entire economy and production as protoss (i pointed this out as a major issue accompanying economic changes early in the ptr) but in all of the gameplay on live that I've watched, ive seen greedy, prior patch builds by p/t against Zerg. Literally today, Heromarine went reactor hellion, 3cc, cloaked banshee, +1/+1 bio and was upset that the zerg had 6 mutas out by the time he did all that and switched in to 8 rax marine production (he scouted the spire before it was completed). He still parried the mutas and won the game with only a few worker differential by the time mutas were out. Transport me back into a time before 12 workers and I'd say it would be crazy for a terran to be able to tech and expand so aggressively without being punished. All I'm saying is I am not 100% convinced that the larva is "broken" quite yet based on what I've been watching - it is definitely strong though! Have you seen different experiences on live? Two things can be true too - both tournaments should probably be using a mod to bring things back to the previous patch and not play on live bc it is unreasonable to expect they are prepared enough to play their best starcraft. This is the most sc2 fppov ive watched in a decade though, so I am here for all of this. I'm curious as to why non-Zerg players should have to "adjust" to solve a problem that Blizzard created while Zerg players can blithely continue doing what they were doing before, except now they do it better relative to everyone else. The entire game of starcraft is about problem solving, especially when a new patch comes out. You could make this argument about any one balance patch/change. Zerg has had plenty of these "adjustment" moments throughout starcraft history as well. Ill also say that after some ladder last night, zerg players need to adjust too. Hatch first isnt "free" anymore. First assertion, that starcraft is about problem solving is factually wrong. It is more a mechanical game than anything else, which has little to do with problem solving. Zergs never had their core production mechanic (inject), removed or made it so that only in the late game it would make sense to press it (or make it cost money once / queen). It is completely ridiculous what happened with warpgate tech. Protoss is the new terran in terms of production style and this benefits only Clem and demolishes years of muscle memory for protosses. Real time strategy absolutely involved problem solving, and it always did, up until 12 workers. Even in HotS and WoL the game was a test of mechanical ability rather than strategical (outside the very beginning of patches maybe), as it should The number of workers didn’t change that fact Sure you could get away with lesser mechanics like sOs, but it had more to do with protoss than the extension, albeit it was indeed exacerbated in LotV (which is a good thing, being fast and precise is what StarCraft is about, if you want pure strategy play chess and go) But it’s a very good thing that the game is about mechanics -> everyone can be « strateg1cal!! », it does not take a special person in terms of talent Whereas the mechanicals gods like Clem / Reynor / Serral and the top KR players are mythical creatures with a lot of training + talent to achieve the mechanical excellence to shine in as good of a game as sc2 (LotV, WoL quickly became horrible with BL infestor and HotS started with the most boring competitive games ever with swarm host)
you realize that koreans dominated the scene in starcraft from 1998 to 12 worker change right? IMO 12 workers was the grossest exaggeration of skill i've ever seen in any RTS i've ever played.
when I say problem solving, I mean breaking a contain, or playing in a split map scenario. Watching MvP play a split map scenario was beautiful, and literally nothing compares to LoTV concept.
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On June 29 2026 14:13 ProTech wrote:Show nested quote +On June 29 2026 12:36 Xsnac1 wrote:On June 28 2026 01:31 BluemoonSC wrote:On June 27 2026 19:24 Athenau wrote:On June 27 2026 12:31 BluemoonSC wrote:On June 27 2026 12:05 tigera6 wrote:On June 27 2026 05:37 BluemoonSC wrote:On June 26 2026 14:42 tigera6 wrote:On June 26 2026 13:42 BluemoonSC wrote:
I understand what the larva change means.
But being upset that youre forced to push the zerg so they cant play as greedy (no matter what the margins are) is a crazy take.
That would be true of any race that is wearing the pants during a given balance patch. You are not addressing my point, I am not upset that other races have to play aggressive against Zerg, I am confused they have to make the patch such that its now HARDER to do so. And giving Zerg an easier time with all those buff, not just the larvae change with also cheaper Carapace, better and quicker Microbial Shroud. I wasn't addressing your point because I was addressing someone claiming zerg can max out by 7:30 on live. but if you insist. I am not 100% convinced that the larva change on live is as bad as people are making it out to be. It's not as bad as PTR, Queens are still 175, hatches are back to 300, and they still have to spend a drone to make structures. I also don't think that the "it'll be the same builds but 30s slower" crowd is entirely correct because it seems to me that people are not applying enough pressure to zergs, allowing them to freely drone, when they should be pressuring z into make something other than drones. We'll see continued evolution of XvZ openers until build orders get ironed out with the changes. Especially while protoss figure out new timings. I'm personally looking forward to watching the meta develop. Its easy to say "people should apply more pressure" without telling how to do it better, all I know is that Zerg has an easier time to survive past the midgame with the balance change, Protoss has to re-learn their entire early build (could be better or worse) while Terran stay relatively the same. Also the timing is weird, we have the Final 4 of a 20k tournament about in start in less than 12hrs but lets ask the pro to "figure the meta", sure thanks. I don't disagree with you that its frustrating to have to relearn your entire economy and production as protoss (i pointed this out as a major issue accompanying economic changes early in the ptr) but in all of the gameplay on live that I've watched, ive seen greedy, prior patch builds by p/t against Zerg. Literally today, Heromarine went reactor hellion, 3cc, cloaked banshee, +1/+1 bio and was upset that the zerg had 6 mutas out by the time he did all that and switched in to 8 rax marine production (he scouted the spire before it was completed). He still parried the mutas and won the game with only a few worker differential by the time mutas were out. Transport me back into a time before 12 workers and I'd say it would be crazy for a terran to be able to tech and expand so aggressively without being punished. All I'm saying is I am not 100% convinced that the larva is "broken" quite yet based on what I've been watching - it is definitely strong though! Have you seen different experiences on live? Two things can be true too - both tournaments should probably be using a mod to bring things back to the previous patch and not play on live bc it is unreasonable to expect they are prepared enough to play their best starcraft. This is the most sc2 fppov ive watched in a decade though, so I am here for all of this. I'm curious as to why non-Zerg players should have to "adjust" to solve a problem that Blizzard created while Zerg players can blithely continue doing what they were doing before, except now they do it better relative to everyone else. The entire game of starcraft is about problem solving, especially when a new patch comes out. You could make this argument about any one balance patch/change. Zerg has had plenty of these "adjustment" moments throughout starcraft history as well. Ill also say that after some ladder last night, zerg players need to adjust too. Hatch first isnt "free" anymore. First assertion, that starcraft is about problem solving is factually wrong. It is more a mechanical game than anything else, which has little to do with problem solving. Zergs never had their core production mechanic (inject), removed or made it so that only in the late game it would make sense to press it (or make it cost money once / queen). It is completely ridiculous what happened with warpgate tech. Protoss is the new terran in terms of production style and this benefits only Clem and demolishes years of muscle memory for protosses. Real time strategy absolutely involved problem solving, and it always did, up until 12 workers.
Can't tell if satire or not.
After the fruit dealer era (when people had no idea of most of things, e.g. that overlord ability to slow upgrade was used, and a lot of other creative play was possible), there was no more "oh this guy won code S but he aint good mechanically, he just treats every game as solving a problem".
RTS will never be Schrodinger equation in different potentials.
It is funny however, for exampe David Kim latest interview stresses how there is nothing in between:
a)pure mechnical/reaction gameplay i.e. Starcraft 2
b) pure strategy i.e. hs battlegrounds.
Implying that there is little strategy in starcraft (oh well who could have tell).
With this being said, I understand that some people whose life depend on RTS, to make it seem like moving hands implies big brains but yeah (a counter example would be hupsya /not).
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France12957 Posts
On June 29 2026 16:24 ProTech wrote:Show nested quote +On June 29 2026 15:11 Poopi wrote:On June 29 2026 14:13 ProTech wrote:On June 29 2026 12:36 Xsnac1 wrote:On June 28 2026 01:31 BluemoonSC wrote:On June 27 2026 19:24 Athenau wrote:On June 27 2026 12:31 BluemoonSC wrote:On June 27 2026 12:05 tigera6 wrote:On June 27 2026 05:37 BluemoonSC wrote:On June 26 2026 14:42 tigera6 wrote:
[quote]
You are not addressing my point, I am not upset that other races have to play aggressive against Zerg, I am confused they have to make the patch such that its now HARDER to do so. And giving Zerg an easier time with all those buff, not just the larvae change with also cheaper Carapace, better and quicker Microbial Shroud. I wasn't addressing your point because I was addressing someone claiming zerg can max out by 7:30 on live. but if you insist. I am not 100% convinced that the larva change on live is as bad as people are making it out to be. It's not as bad as PTR, Queens are still 175, hatches are back to 300, and they still have to spend a drone to make structures. I also don't think that the "it'll be the same builds but 30s slower" crowd is entirely correct because it seems to me that people are not applying enough pressure to zergs, allowing them to freely drone, when they should be pressuring z into make something other than drones. We'll see continued evolution of XvZ openers until build orders get ironed out with the changes. Especially while protoss figure out new timings. I'm personally looking forward to watching the meta develop. Its easy to say "people should apply more pressure" without telling how to do it better, all I know is that Zerg has an easier time to survive past the midgame with the balance change, Protoss has to re-learn their entire early build (could be better or worse) while Terran stay relatively the same. Also the timing is weird, we have the Final 4 of a 20k tournament about in start in less than 12hrs but lets ask the pro to "figure the meta", sure thanks. I don't disagree with you that its frustrating to have to relearn your entire economy and production as protoss (i pointed this out as a major issue accompanying economic changes early in the ptr) but in all of the gameplay on live that I've watched, ive seen greedy, prior patch builds by p/t against Zerg. Literally today, Heromarine went reactor hellion, 3cc, cloaked banshee, +1/+1 bio and was upset that the zerg had 6 mutas out by the time he did all that and switched in to 8 rax marine production (he scouted the spire before it was completed). He still parried the mutas and won the game with only a few worker differential by the time mutas were out. Transport me back into a time before 12 workers and I'd say it would be crazy for a terran to be able to tech and expand so aggressively without being punished. All I'm saying is I am not 100% convinced that the larva is "broken" quite yet based on what I've been watching - it is definitely strong though! Have you seen different experiences on live? Two things can be true too - both tournaments should probably be using a mod to bring things back to the previous patch and not play on live bc it is unreasonable to expect they are prepared enough to play their best starcraft. This is the most sc2 fppov ive watched in a decade though, so I am here for all of this. I'm curious as to why non-Zerg players should have to "adjust" to solve a problem that Blizzard created while Zerg players can blithely continue doing what they were doing before, except now they do it better relative to everyone else. The entire game of starcraft is about problem solving, especially when a new patch comes out. You could make this argument about any one balance patch/change. Zerg has had plenty of these "adjustment" moments throughout starcraft history as well. Ill also say that after some ladder last night, zerg players need to adjust too. Hatch first isnt "free" anymore. First assertion, that starcraft is about problem solving is factually wrong. It is more a mechanical game than anything else, which has little to do with problem solving. Zergs never had their core production mechanic (inject), removed or made it so that only in the late game it would make sense to press it (or make it cost money once / queen). It is completely ridiculous what happened with warpgate tech. Protoss is the new terran in terms of production style and this benefits only Clem and demolishes years of muscle memory for protosses. Real time strategy absolutely involved problem solving, and it always did, up until 12 workers. Even in HotS and WoL the game was a test of mechanical ability rather than strategical (outside the very beginning of patches maybe), as it should The number of workers didn’t change that fact Sure you could get away with lesser mechanics like sOs, but it had more to do with protoss than the extension, albeit it was indeed exacerbated in LotV (which is a good thing, being fast and precise is what StarCraft is about, if you want pure strategy play chess and go) But it’s a very good thing that the game is about mechanics -> everyone can be « strateg1cal!! », it does not take a special person in terms of talent Whereas the mechanicals gods like Clem / Reynor / Serral and the top KR players are mythical creatures with a lot of training + talent to achieve the mechanical excellence to shine in as good of a game as sc2 (LotV, WoL quickly became horrible with BL infestor and HotS started with the most boring competitive games ever with swarm host) you realize that koreans dominated the scene in starcraft from 1998 to 12 worker change right? IMO 12 workers was the grossest exaggeration of skill i've ever seen in any RTS i've ever played. when I say problem solving, I mean breaking a contain, or playing in a split map scenario. Watching MvP play a split map scenario was beautiful, and literally nothing compares to LoTV concept.
Breaking a contain solution is known in advance: pull scv and stim a click with a good arc to kill units with as Little loss as possible.
Split map is also about mechanical skill
And Mvp was also a mechanically dominant player, that’s why he had so much trouble once affected by his health, and had to go in lesser regions to compete
StarCraft 2 has always been about mechanics -> you don’t come up with solutions on the fly, it’s always either you know the answer or you don’t, but the hardest part is the execution
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On June 29 2026 14:38 ProTech wrote:
LoTV econ created an atmosphere that would typically turn metas into not only a pretty boring playing experience, but also a very very boring viewing experience.
Take is pretty useless since it's subjective -- playing there is no impact, however It's hard to argue the viewing experience not suffering as it's not only painfully slow but the build orders are more telegraphed to boot.
On June 29 2026 14:38 ProTech wrote:
IMO players were just able to gain too much information, and defenders advantage was way too strong because of the blown up eco, thus creating the situation we had for 11 years.
???. Your reasoning is contradictory. We have almost complete information now since viable opening are more limited in comparison. Throw that on top of the abundant overlord perches, innate hallucination, reaper & worker paths and nobody is getting surprised.
I think defending is the easiest it has even been in the history of the game. We have lower unit counts and responsibilities with the ability to fine tailor reactions based on scouting. This is pretty much entirely in direct correlation with reduced worker start.
I'd be genuinely curious if anyone else believes that a higher worker somehow makes defending easier.
The only thing this patch added was a handful of committed all-ins/cheeses that really only punish openers which are more or less not even viable.
Pressuring and harassment builds now generally require much deeper investment (both initial and transition), and the opportunity cost doesn't really align with what players are able to scout and infer in a 16 year old game.
I find it pretty amusing how mixed the reactions are to the patch. I personally have always thought the game was too fast, and I think most people share that sentiment on both sides, especially those adamantly for the lower count. Everyone got too lost in the sauce of warpgate and larva changes to play around with the idea of perhaps a fractionally slower game speed or perhaps even a nerf to mining be it speed or value.
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On June 29 2026 17:20 Agh wrote:Show nested quote +On June 29 2026 14:38 ProTech wrote:
LoTV econ created an atmosphere that would typically turn metas into not only a pretty boring playing experience, but also a very very boring viewing experience. Take is pretty useless since it's subjective -- playing there is no impact, however It's hard to argue the viewing experience not suffering as it's not only painfully slow but the build orders are more telegraphed to boot. Show nested quote +On June 29 2026 14:38 ProTech wrote:
IMO players were just able to gain too much information, and defenders advantage was way too strong because of the blown up eco, thus creating the situation we had for 11 years. ???. Your reasoning is contradictory. We have almost complete information now since viable opening are more limited in comparison. Throw that on top of the abundant overlord perches, innate hallucination, reaper & worker paths and nobody is getting surprised. I think defending is the easiest it has even been in the history of the game. We have lower unit counts and responsibilities with the ability to fine tailor reactions based on scouting. This is pretty much entirely in direct correlation with reduced worker start. I'd be genuinely curious if anyone else believes that a higher worker somehow makes defending easier. The only thing this patch added was a handful of committed all-ins/cheeses that really only punish openers which are more or less not even viable. Pressuring and harassment builds now generally require much deeper investment (both initial and transition), and the opportunity cost doesn't really align with what players are able to scout and infer in a 16 year old game. I find it pretty amusing how mixed the reactions are to the patch. I personally have always thought the game was too fast, and I think most people share that sentiment on both sides, especially those adamantly for the lower count. Everyone got too lost in the sauce of warpgate and larva changes to play around with the idea of perhaps a fractionally slower game speed or perhaps even a nerf to mining be it speed or value.
because everyone is still using LoTV builds, in Wol/hots economy.
Everyone is raging, and I'm over here having a blast because I'm using old WoL/HoTS playstyle, and it's working. It won't be until the playerbase figures out how to actually play this eco setting before you really start to understand the ramifications that high eco had on the game.
Regardless, there really is no point in complaining about it because the playerbase numbers have it an all-time low, there is no choice but the change the game, if you even want an attempt at restoring its playerbase or esport/twitch viewership numbers.
catering to the ragers is probably the absolute worst thing they could do right now, because all the players who used to like starcraft have left.
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On June 29 2026 17:30 ProTech wrote:Show nested quote +On June 29 2026 17:20 Agh wrote:On June 29 2026 14:38 ProTech wrote:
LoTV econ created an atmosphere that would typically turn metas into not only a pretty boring playing experience, but also a very very boring viewing experience. Take is pretty useless since it's subjective -- playing there is no impact, however It's hard to argue the viewing experience not suffering as it's not only painfully slow but the build orders are more telegraphed to boot. On June 29 2026 14:38 ProTech wrote:
IMO players were just able to gain too much information, and defenders advantage was way too strong because of the blown up eco, thus creating the situation we had for 11 years. ???. Your reasoning is contradictory. We have almost complete information now since viable opening are more limited in comparison. Throw that on top of the abundant overlord perches, innate hallucination, reaper & worker paths and nobody is getting surprised. I think defending is the easiest it has even been in the history of the game. We have lower unit counts and responsibilities with the ability to fine tailor reactions based on scouting. This is pretty much entirely in direct correlation with reduced worker start. I'd be genuinely curious if anyone else believes that a higher worker somehow makes defending easier. The only thing this patch added was a handful of committed all-ins/cheeses that really only punish openers which are more or less not even viable. Pressuring and harassment builds now generally require much deeper investment (both initial and transition), and the opportunity cost doesn't really align with what players are able to scout and infer in a 16 year old game. I find it pretty amusing how mixed the reactions are to the patch. I personally have always thought the game was too fast, and I think most people share that sentiment on both sides, especially those adamantly for the lower count. Everyone got too lost in the sauce of warpgate and larva changes to play around with the idea of perhaps a fractionally slower game speed or perhaps even a nerf to mining be it speed or value. because everyone is still using LoTV builds, in Wol/hots economy. Everyone is raging, and I'm over here having a blast because I'm using old WoL/HoTS playstyle, and it's working. It won't be until the playerbase figures out how to actually play this eco setting before you really start to understand the ramifications that high eco had on the game. Regardless, there really is no point in complaining about it because the playerbase numbers have it an all-time low, there is no choice but the change the game, if you even want an attempt at restoring its playerbase or esport/twitch viewership numbers. catering to the ragers is probably the absolute worst thing they could do right now, because all the players who used to like starcraft have left.
dunno what playstyle you dream of, but 4 gate (with gate opened) was the first build invented in sc2. to not have gates was unheard of until 1 week ago. stop projecting alternative realities
final edit: it just struck me, the only build where you don't open gates is 2 proxy gate. ah ok thats how you manage now. it all makes sense.
p.s. a bigger shake would have been just to add units like dota 2 does, OR change all units across the board.
p.s.s.changing production mechanic of one race is the most not smart way to shake up the game.
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EPT
