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On June 27 2026 19:24 Athenau wrote:Show nested quote +On June 27 2026 12:31 BluemoonSC wrote:On June 27 2026 12:05 tigera6 wrote:On June 27 2026 05:37 BluemoonSC wrote:On June 26 2026 14:42 tigera6 wrote:On June 26 2026 13:42 BluemoonSC wrote:
I understand what the larva change means.
But being upset that youre forced to push the zerg so they cant play as greedy (no matter what the margins are) is a crazy take.
That would be true of any race that is wearing the pants during a given balance patch. You are not addressing my point, I am not upset that other races have to play aggressive against Zerg, I am confused they have to make the patch such that its now HARDER to do so. And giving Zerg an easier time with all those buff, not just the larvae change with also cheaper Carapace, better and quicker Microbial Shroud. I wasn't addressing your point because I was addressing someone claiming zerg can max out by 7:30 on live. but if you insist. I am not 100% convinced that the larva change on live is as bad as people are making it out to be. It's not as bad as PTR, Queens are still 175, hatches are back to 300, and they still have to spend a drone to make structures. I also don't think that the "it'll be the same builds but 30s slower" crowd is entirely correct because it seems to me that people are not applying enough pressure to zergs, allowing them to freely drone, when they should be pressuring z into make something other than drones. We'll see continued evolution of XvZ openers until build orders get ironed out with the changes. Especially while protoss figure out new timings. I'm personally looking forward to watching the meta develop. Its easy to say "people should apply more pressure" without telling how to do it better, all I know is that Zerg has an easier time to survive past the midgame with the balance change, Protoss has to re-learn their entire early build (could be better or worse) while Terran stay relatively the same. Also the timing is weird, we have the Final 4 of a 20k tournament about in start in less than 12hrs but lets ask the pro to "figure the meta", sure thanks. I don't disagree with you that its frustrating to have to relearn your entire economy and production as protoss (i pointed this out as a major issue accompanying economic changes early in the ptr) but in all of the gameplay on live that I've watched, ive seen greedy, prior patch builds by p/t against Zerg. Literally today, Heromarine went reactor hellion, 3cc, cloaked banshee, +1/+1 bio and was upset that the zerg had 6 mutas out by the time he did all that and switched in to 8 rax marine production (he scouted the spire before it was completed). He still parried the mutas and won the game with only a few worker differential by the time mutas were out. Transport me back into a time before 12 workers and I'd say it would be crazy for a terran to be able to tech and expand so aggressively without being punished. All I'm saying is I am not 100% convinced that the larva is "broken" quite yet based on what I've been watching - it is definitely strong though! Have you seen different experiences on live? Two things can be true too - both tournaments should probably be using a mod to bring things back to the previous patch and not play on live bc it is unreasonable to expect they are prepared enough to play their best starcraft. This is the most sc2 fppov ive watched in a decade though, so I am here for all of this. I'm curious as to why non-Zerg players should have to "adjust" to solve a problem that Blizzard created while Zerg players can blithely continue doing what they were doing before, except now they do it better relative to everyone else.
because that is how the game has always worked.
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SoCal8922 Posts
On June 27 2026 19:24 Athenau wrote:Show nested quote +On June 27 2026 12:31 BluemoonSC wrote:On June 27 2026 12:05 tigera6 wrote:On June 27 2026 05:37 BluemoonSC wrote:On June 26 2026 14:42 tigera6 wrote:On June 26 2026 13:42 BluemoonSC wrote:
I understand what the larva change means.
But being upset that youre forced to push the zerg so they cant play as greedy (no matter what the margins are) is a crazy take.
That would be true of any race that is wearing the pants during a given balance patch. You are not addressing my point, I am not upset that other races have to play aggressive against Zerg, I am confused they have to make the patch such that its now HARDER to do so. And giving Zerg an easier time with all those buff, not just the larvae change with also cheaper Carapace, better and quicker Microbial Shroud. I wasn't addressing your point because I was addressing someone claiming zerg can max out by 7:30 on live. but if you insist. I am not 100% convinced that the larva change on live is as bad as people are making it out to be. It's not as bad as PTR, Queens are still 175, hatches are back to 300, and they still have to spend a drone to make structures. I also don't think that the "it'll be the same builds but 30s slower" crowd is entirely correct because it seems to me that people are not applying enough pressure to zergs, allowing them to freely drone, when they should be pressuring z into make something other than drones. We'll see continued evolution of XvZ openers until build orders get ironed out with the changes. Especially while protoss figure out new timings. I'm personally looking forward to watching the meta develop. Its easy to say "people should apply more pressure" without telling how to do it better, all I know is that Zerg has an easier time to survive past the midgame with the balance change, Protoss has to re-learn their entire early build (could be better or worse) while Terran stay relatively the same. Also the timing is weird, we have the Final 4 of a 20k tournament about in start in less than 12hrs but lets ask the pro to "figure the meta", sure thanks. I don't disagree with you that its frustrating to have to relearn your entire economy and production as protoss (i pointed this out as a major issue accompanying economic changes early in the ptr) but in all of the gameplay on live that I've watched, ive seen greedy, prior patch builds by p/t against Zerg. Literally today, Heromarine went reactor hellion, 3cc, cloaked banshee, +1/+1 bio and was upset that the zerg had 6 mutas out by the time he did all that and switched in to 8 rax marine production (he scouted the spire before it was completed). He still parried the mutas and won the game with only a few worker differential by the time mutas were out. Transport me back into a time before 12 workers and I'd say it would be crazy for a terran to be able to tech and expand so aggressively without being punished. All I'm saying is I am not 100% convinced that the larva is "broken" quite yet based on what I've been watching - it is definitely strong though! Have you seen different experiences on live? Two things can be true too - both tournaments should probably be using a mod to bring things back to the previous patch and not play on live bc it is unreasonable to expect they are prepared enough to play their best starcraft. This is the most sc2 fppov ive watched in a decade though, so I am here for all of this. I'm curious as to why non-Zerg players should have to "adjust" to solve a problem that Blizzard created while Zerg players can blithely continue doing what they were doing before, except now they do it better relative to everyone else.
The entire game of starcraft is about problem solving, especially when a new patch comes out.
You could make this argument about any one balance patch/change. Zerg has had plenty of these "adjustment" moments throughout starcraft history as well.
Ill also say that after some ladder last night, zerg players need to adjust too. Hatch first isnt "free" anymore.
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On June 28 2026 01:31 BluemoonSC wrote:Show nested quote +On June 27 2026 19:24 Athenau wrote:On June 27 2026 12:31 BluemoonSC wrote:On June 27 2026 12:05 tigera6 wrote:On June 27 2026 05:37 BluemoonSC wrote:On June 26 2026 14:42 tigera6 wrote:On June 26 2026 13:42 BluemoonSC wrote:
I understand what the larva change means.
But being upset that youre forced to push the zerg so they cant play as greedy (no matter what the margins are) is a crazy take.
That would be true of any race that is wearing the pants during a given balance patch. You are not addressing my point, I am not upset that other races have to play aggressive against Zerg, I am confused they have to make the patch such that its now HARDER to do so. And giving Zerg an easier time with all those buff, not just the larvae change with also cheaper Carapace, better and quicker Microbial Shroud. I wasn't addressing your point because I was addressing someone claiming zerg can max out by 7:30 on live. but if you insist. I am not 100% convinced that the larva change on live is as bad as people are making it out to be. It's not as bad as PTR, Queens are still 175, hatches are back to 300, and they still have to spend a drone to make structures. I also don't think that the "it'll be the same builds but 30s slower" crowd is entirely correct because it seems to me that people are not applying enough pressure to zergs, allowing them to freely drone, when they should be pressuring z into make something other than drones. We'll see continued evolution of XvZ openers until build orders get ironed out with the changes. Especially while protoss figure out new timings. I'm personally looking forward to watching the meta develop. Its easy to say "people should apply more pressure" without telling how to do it better, all I know is that Zerg has an easier time to survive past the midgame with the balance change, Protoss has to re-learn their entire early build (could be better or worse) while Terran stay relatively the same. Also the timing is weird, we have the Final 4 of a 20k tournament about in start in less than 12hrs but lets ask the pro to "figure the meta", sure thanks. I don't disagree with you that its frustrating to have to relearn your entire economy and production as protoss (i pointed this out as a major issue accompanying economic changes early in the ptr) but in all of the gameplay on live that I've watched, ive seen greedy, prior patch builds by p/t against Zerg. Literally today, Heromarine went reactor hellion, 3cc, cloaked banshee, +1/+1 bio and was upset that the zerg had 6 mutas out by the time he did all that and switched in to 8 rax marine production (he scouted the spire before it was completed). He still parried the mutas and won the game with only a few worker differential by the time mutas were out. Transport me back into a time before 12 workers and I'd say it would be crazy for a terran to be able to tech and expand so aggressively without being punished. All I'm saying is I am not 100% convinced that the larva is "broken" quite yet based on what I've been watching - it is definitely strong though! Have you seen different experiences on live? Two things can be true too - both tournaments should probably be using a mod to bring things back to the previous patch and not play on live bc it is unreasonable to expect they are prepared enough to play their best starcraft. This is the most sc2 fppov ive watched in a decade though, so I am here for all of this. I'm curious as to why non-Zerg players should have to "adjust" to solve a problem that Blizzard created while Zerg players can blithely continue doing what they were doing before, except now they do it better relative to everyone else. The entire game of starcraft is about problem solving, especially when a new patch comes out. You could make this argument about any one balance patch/change. Zerg has had plenty of these "adjustment" moments throughout starcraft history as well. Ill also say that after some ladder last night, zerg players need to adjust too. Hatch first isnt "free" anymore.
Balance patches don't happen for no reason. They exist to address a problem, either real or perceived. So what problem is being addressed with this change?
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France12953 Posts
On June 28 2026 02:44 Athenau wrote:Show nested quote +On June 28 2026 01:31 BluemoonSC wrote:On June 27 2026 19:24 Athenau wrote:On June 27 2026 12:31 BluemoonSC wrote:On June 27 2026 12:05 tigera6 wrote:On June 27 2026 05:37 BluemoonSC wrote:On June 26 2026 14:42 tigera6 wrote:On June 26 2026 13:42 BluemoonSC wrote:
I understand what the larva change means.
But being upset that youre forced to push the zerg so they cant play as greedy (no matter what the margins are) is a crazy take.
That would be true of any race that is wearing the pants during a given balance patch. You are not addressing my point, I am not upset that other races have to play aggressive against Zerg, I am confused they have to make the patch such that its now HARDER to do so. And giving Zerg an easier time with all those buff, not just the larvae change with also cheaper Carapace, better and quicker Microbial Shroud. I wasn't addressing your point because I was addressing someone claiming zerg can max out by 7:30 on live. but if you insist. I am not 100% convinced that the larva change on live is as bad as people are making it out to be. It's not as bad as PTR, Queens are still 175, hatches are back to 300, and they still have to spend a drone to make structures. I also don't think that the "it'll be the same builds but 30s slower" crowd is entirely correct because it seems to me that people are not applying enough pressure to zergs, allowing them to freely drone, when they should be pressuring z into make something other than drones. We'll see continued evolution of XvZ openers until build orders get ironed out with the changes. Especially while protoss figure out new timings. I'm personally looking forward to watching the meta develop. Its easy to say "people should apply more pressure" without telling how to do it better, all I know is that Zerg has an easier time to survive past the midgame with the balance change, Protoss has to re-learn their entire early build (could be better or worse) while Terran stay relatively the same. Also the timing is weird, we have the Final 4 of a 20k tournament about in start in less than 12hrs but lets ask the pro to "figure the meta", sure thanks. I don't disagree with you that its frustrating to have to relearn your entire economy and production as protoss (i pointed this out as a major issue accompanying economic changes early in the ptr) but in all of the gameplay on live that I've watched, ive seen greedy, prior patch builds by p/t against Zerg. Literally today, Heromarine went reactor hellion, 3cc, cloaked banshee, +1/+1 bio and was upset that the zerg had 6 mutas out by the time he did all that and switched in to 8 rax marine production (he scouted the spire before it was completed). He still parried the mutas and won the game with only a few worker differential by the time mutas were out. Transport me back into a time before 12 workers and I'd say it would be crazy for a terran to be able to tech and expand so aggressively without being punished. All I'm saying is I am not 100% convinced that the larva is "broken" quite yet based on what I've been watching - it is definitely strong though! Have you seen different experiences on live? Two things can be true too - both tournaments should probably be using a mod to bring things back to the previous patch and not play on live bc it is unreasonable to expect they are prepared enough to play their best starcraft. This is the most sc2 fppov ive watched in a decade though, so I am here for all of this. I'm curious as to why non-Zerg players should have to "adjust" to solve a problem that Blizzard created while Zerg players can blithely continue doing what they were doing before, except now they do it better relative to everyone else. The entire game of starcraft is about problem solving, especially when a new patch comes out. You could make this argument about any one balance patch/change. Zerg has had plenty of these "adjustment" moments throughout starcraft history as well. Ill also say that after some ladder last night, zerg players need to adjust too. Hatch first isnt "free" anymore. Balance patches don't happen for no reason. They exist to address a problem, either real or perceived. So what problem is being addressed with this change?
Yeah, this patch wasn’t asked for and they didn’t listen to feed-back anyways. It just made the game very bad -> builds don’t feel smooth at all with 8 worker start (at least with terran, didn’t try with other races), like there is no build where you don’t have to cut something (like 1 gas rax expand or 2gas, everything was smooth)
Even simple supply rax gas there is some downtime / worker cut
Never seen such a badly thought out patch
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SoCal8922 Posts
On June 28 2026 02:44 Athenau wrote:Show nested quote +On June 28 2026 01:31 BluemoonSC wrote:On June 27 2026 19:24 Athenau wrote:On June 27 2026 12:31 BluemoonSC wrote:On June 27 2026 12:05 tigera6 wrote:On June 27 2026 05:37 BluemoonSC wrote:On June 26 2026 14:42 tigera6 wrote:On June 26 2026 13:42 BluemoonSC wrote:
I understand what the larva change means.
But being upset that youre forced to push the zerg so they cant play as greedy (no matter what the margins are) is a crazy take.
That would be true of any race that is wearing the pants during a given balance patch. You are not addressing my point, I am not upset that other races have to play aggressive against Zerg, I am confused they have to make the patch such that its now HARDER to do so. And giving Zerg an easier time with all those buff, not just the larvae change with also cheaper Carapace, better and quicker Microbial Shroud. I wasn't addressing your point because I was addressing someone claiming zerg can max out by 7:30 on live. but if you insist. I am not 100% convinced that the larva change on live is as bad as people are making it out to be. It's not as bad as PTR, Queens are still 175, hatches are back to 300, and they still have to spend a drone to make structures. I also don't think that the "it'll be the same builds but 30s slower" crowd is entirely correct because it seems to me that people are not applying enough pressure to zergs, allowing them to freely drone, when they should be pressuring z into make something other than drones. We'll see continued evolution of XvZ openers until build orders get ironed out with the changes. Especially while protoss figure out new timings. I'm personally looking forward to watching the meta develop. Its easy to say "people should apply more pressure" without telling how to do it better, all I know is that Zerg has an easier time to survive past the midgame with the balance change, Protoss has to re-learn their entire early build (could be better or worse) while Terran stay relatively the same. Also the timing is weird, we have the Final 4 of a 20k tournament about in start in less than 12hrs but lets ask the pro to "figure the meta", sure thanks. I don't disagree with you that its frustrating to have to relearn your entire economy and production as protoss (i pointed this out as a major issue accompanying economic changes early in the ptr) but in all of the gameplay on live that I've watched, ive seen greedy, prior patch builds by p/t against Zerg. Literally today, Heromarine went reactor hellion, 3cc, cloaked banshee, +1/+1 bio and was upset that the zerg had 6 mutas out by the time he did all that and switched in to 8 rax marine production (he scouted the spire before it was completed). He still parried the mutas and won the game with only a few worker differential by the time mutas were out. Transport me back into a time before 12 workers and I'd say it would be crazy for a terran to be able to tech and expand so aggressively without being punished. All I'm saying is I am not 100% convinced that the larva is "broken" quite yet based on what I've been watching - it is definitely strong though! Have you seen different experiences on live? Two things can be true too - both tournaments should probably be using a mod to bring things back to the previous patch and not play on live bc it is unreasonable to expect they are prepared enough to play their best starcraft. This is the most sc2 fppov ive watched in a decade though, so I am here for all of this. I'm curious as to why non-Zerg players should have to "adjust" to solve a problem that Blizzard created while Zerg players can blithely continue doing what they were doing before, except now they do it better relative to everyone else. The entire game of starcraft is about problem solving, especially when a new patch comes out. You could make this argument about any one balance patch/change. Zerg has had plenty of these "adjustment" moments throughout starcraft history as well. Ill also say that after some ladder last night, zerg players need to adjust too. Hatch first isnt "free" anymore. Balance patches don't happen for no reason. They exist to address a problem, either real or perceived. So what problem is being addressed with this change?
I cant and wont pretend that this patch was "asked for." No one asked for the cyclone changes either IIRC.
But it went live and here we are.
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On June 28 2026 02:44 Athenau wrote:Show nested quote +On June 28 2026 01:31 BluemoonSC wrote:On June 27 2026 19:24 Athenau wrote:On June 27 2026 12:31 BluemoonSC wrote:On June 27 2026 12:05 tigera6 wrote:On June 27 2026 05:37 BluemoonSC wrote:On June 26 2026 14:42 tigera6 wrote:On June 26 2026 13:42 BluemoonSC wrote:
I understand what the larva change means.
But being upset that youre forced to push the zerg so they cant play as greedy (no matter what the margins are) is a crazy take.
That would be true of any race that is wearing the pants during a given balance patch. You are not addressing my point, I am not upset that other races have to play aggressive against Zerg, I am confused they have to make the patch such that its now HARDER to do so. And giving Zerg an easier time with all those buff, not just the larvae change with also cheaper Carapace, better and quicker Microbial Shroud. I wasn't addressing your point because I was addressing someone claiming zerg can max out by 7:30 on live. but if you insist. I am not 100% convinced that the larva change on live is as bad as people are making it out to be. It's not as bad as PTR, Queens are still 175, hatches are back to 300, and they still have to spend a drone to make structures. I also don't think that the "it'll be the same builds but 30s slower" crowd is entirely correct because it seems to me that people are not applying enough pressure to zergs, allowing them to freely drone, when they should be pressuring z into make something other than drones. We'll see continued evolution of XvZ openers until build orders get ironed out with the changes. Especially while protoss figure out new timings. I'm personally looking forward to watching the meta develop. Its easy to say "people should apply more pressure" without telling how to do it better, all I know is that Zerg has an easier time to survive past the midgame with the balance change, Protoss has to re-learn their entire early build (could be better or worse) while Terran stay relatively the same. Also the timing is weird, we have the Final 4 of a 20k tournament about in start in less than 12hrs but lets ask the pro to "figure the meta", sure thanks. I don't disagree with you that its frustrating to have to relearn your entire economy and production as protoss (i pointed this out as a major issue accompanying economic changes early in the ptr) but in all of the gameplay on live that I've watched, ive seen greedy, prior patch builds by p/t against Zerg. Literally today, Heromarine went reactor hellion, 3cc, cloaked banshee, +1/+1 bio and was upset that the zerg had 6 mutas out by the time he did all that and switched in to 8 rax marine production (he scouted the spire before it was completed). He still parried the mutas and won the game with only a few worker differential by the time mutas were out. Transport me back into a time before 12 workers and I'd say it would be crazy for a terran to be able to tech and expand so aggressively without being punished. All I'm saying is I am not 100% convinced that the larva is "broken" quite yet based on what I've been watching - it is definitely strong though! Have you seen different experiences on live? Two things can be true too - both tournaments should probably be using a mod to bring things back to the previous patch and not play on live bc it is unreasonable to expect they are prepared enough to play their best starcraft. This is the most sc2 fppov ive watched in a decade though, so I am here for all of this. I'm curious as to why non-Zerg players should have to "adjust" to solve a problem that Blizzard created while Zerg players can blithely continue doing what they were doing before, except now they do it better relative to everyone else. The entire game of starcraft is about problem solving, especially when a new patch comes out. You could make this argument about any one balance patch/change. Zerg has had plenty of these "adjustment" moments throughout starcraft history as well. Ill also say that after some ladder last night, zerg players need to adjust too. Hatch first isnt "free" anymore. Balance patches don't happen for no reason. They exist to address a problem, either real or perceived. So what problem is being addressed with this change?
The problem this patch addresses is that SC2 was dropped from ESL. The game in its previous state was not a viable esport, so they opted to blow it up in a Hail Mary to attempt to revitalize it.
Will it work? I don't know, but I am very glad they are doing something.
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