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On January 22 2025 04:25 Balnazza wrote:Show nested quote +On January 22 2025 04:18 Telephone wrote:
But how can he be the GOAT if he gets stomped in the finals of the biggest tournament of the season by someone not even on the GOAT list? How can Maru be the GOAT if he constantly gets stomped by someone who got stomped in one tournament by someone who is not even on the GOAT list?
I mean... that's the point of his comment as I understood it. The argument that Maru can't be the Goat because he loses vs Serral is as reasonable as the argument Serral can't be the Goat because he lost 5-0 to Clem.
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As a fan, I've felt a strange calm come over me haha. Glad to see credit where it's due. Maru is great, but Serral is the GOAT. At least, for now.
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For me personally, feels about right. I was always conflicted about not having Dark on the list--definitely doesn't feel like he had the absolute mega-peak that some others reached, but he's been so consistent for so long.
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On January 22 2025 05:40 Charoisaur wrote:Show nested quote +On January 22 2025 04:25 Balnazza wrote:On January 22 2025 04:18 Telephone wrote:
But how can he be the GOAT if he gets stomped in the finals of the biggest tournament of the season by someone not even on the GOAT list? How can Maru be the GOAT if he constantly gets stomped by someone who got stomped in one tournament by someone who is not even on the GOAT list? I mean... that's the point of his comment as I understood it. The argument that Maru can't be the Goat because he loses vs Serral is as reasonable as the argument Serral can't be the Goat because he lost 5-0 to Clem.
I get the point, doesn't change that it is not particularly convincing...
Because he won 4 GSLs in a row and is still winning tournaments 6 years later.
And Serral has won a World Championship title, did it again, is still winning tournaments 7 years later...this is the entire debate all over again. With the difference, that in the last year Serral has only gathered more points towards his claim, while Maru did not (in comparison to Serral). Also doesn't help, though I don't think Miz factored that in very much, that Marus performance in MC8 was...lacking, to be careful. And he didn't particularly blow it out of the water at HSC either.
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United States33499 Posts
you're welcome content creators for some stuff to fill the gap after MC8 & LiuLi Cup 
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On January 21 2025 21:55 Charoisaur wrote:
Hmm I disagree that a Code S win in 2024 should boost someone from 11 to 7.
But 7 is way more appropriate for Dark anyway, so it works out. Seems like Miz realizing his mistake
I honestly had dark conmfortablly over soO even before 2024
Maybe it’s just me?
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I'm probably in search of controversy (i.e. fun) for an update that is frankly not likely to be very controversial, but I do wonder--given the respective 2024s Maru and Dark had--how Dark could gain four slots while Maru could lose one. I mean, I don't really wonder, but I want people to wonder 
A more interesting--and not totally unrelated--conceptual question is the one Miz kinda posed with his Clem analysis. At what point are the prior eras of competition so much more fierce than today's such that current results should matter very little or not at all? If the scene were literally just crowdfunded Clem v. MaxPax showmatches I think we'd all know we've arrived, but this is feeling like a bridge to you-know-where paved with good intentions. At some point maybe you just gotta call it?
I don't know how I feel about Rain getting bumped from this GOAT list. Like actually I don't know. But part of me doesn't really like it. I don't think I can accept an understanding in which Reynor, Clem, Trap, Zoun, etc. win so much in 2025, 2026, 2027, etc. that they start sniping GOATs on the heels of Aligulac inflation and recency bias. Part of me feels like if you didn't win in SC2's most competitive era, you can't be a GOAT. You can be a BOAT (Best of All Time), just not a GOAT.
I've gone through phases feeling like Serral, Maru, and Rogue are the GOAT, and I think I might be in a phase now where I feel like Mvp is the GOAT. But even when I'm not in that mood, I think we need some of us to remind us all of the days in which hundreds and even thousands of players competed for all the glory to be the best gamer in the world. Not a couple dozen competing for the biggest bag from the Saudis.
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Northern Ireland26218 Posts
On January 22 2025 05:40 Charoisaur wrote:Show nested quote +On January 22 2025 04:25 Balnazza wrote:On January 22 2025 04:18 Telephone wrote:
But how can he be the GOAT if he gets stomped in the finals of the biggest tournament of the season by someone not even on the GOAT list? How can Maru be the GOAT if he constantly gets stomped by someone who got stomped in one tournament by someone who is not even on the GOAT list? I mean... that's the point of his comment as I understood it. The argument that Maru can't be the Goat because he loses vs Serral is as reasonable as the argument Serral can't be the Goat because he lost 5-0 to Clem.
I’m not a big fan of head-to-heads, generally it’s how you do versus the overall field that’s more important by far.
But I think it can become meaningful, even if it’s a tie-breaker. Player A with very similar achievements to B otherwise wins off H2H as a tiebreaker.
I don’t think Serral’s winning H2H necessarily is that tiebreaker, but I do think it’s indicative of why he’s the greater player, for me.
If you can’t be the all-conquering, dominant player, well another path to greatness is peaking when it counts, it’s those underdog wins, it’s you set planning to conquer the superior foe on paper.
Maru’s overall performance I think is better than some give
him credit for, for me he’s comfortably been the second best player in the world overall for the past half-decadish. But it’s been a long time since he pulled out the latter from his locker.
It would be one thing if the match H2H was as it is now, but it’s full of all-time great series that could have gone either way. Mostly he’s just been battered over a long period of time, playing much the same way. Hey old man Mvp ultimately lost to Life, but his greatness rep was still enhanced for even getting there, testing Life to his limits despite injury really hampering his game.
Lower stakes tournament sure, but Serral in recent times lost his first ZvP in forever in a patch Zergs aren’t enjoying the matchup on to out it mildly. Then another one immediately. Then come Masters Colosseum a few days later he loses to MaxPax. A day to sleep on it and make a few tweaks and he comes back and batters both him and herO to win the thing.
I think it’s quite illustrative of their relative strengths and weaknesses
I will add the caveat that I’m judging Maru incredibly harshly only because it’s the top end of the GOAT ranking, he’s an incredibly talented player and a pleasure to watch.
But is he clutch? Can he grind it out to get over the line on the rare occasions he isn’t more skilled than an opponent? Sure, sometimes. But I’ve long thought JAGW papered over the very few cracks in his game and in this era you’re seeing them. Cracks Serral just doesn’t have.
It is also worth noting that Serral still has a winning record against Clem overall, from quite a few encounters.
It’s a shame the scene is as it is now because for me the two most intriguing storylines are, ‘can Clem maintain that level?’ and ‘can Serral figure out a way to live with that Clem?’ and we may never get an answer to that which is a crying shame.
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On January 22 2025 08:23 WombaT wrote:Show nested quote +On January 22 2025 05:40 Charoisaur wrote:On January 22 2025 04:25 Balnazza wrote:On January 22 2025 04:18 Telephone wrote:
But how can he be the GOAT if he gets stomped in the finals of the biggest tournament of the season by someone not even on the GOAT list? How can Maru be the GOAT if he constantly gets stomped by someone who got stomped in one tournament by someone who is not even on the GOAT list? I mean... that's the point of his comment as I understood it. The argument that Maru can't be the Goat because he loses vs Serral is as reasonable as the argument Serral can't be the Goat because he lost 5-0 to Clem. I’m not a big fan of head-to-heads, generally it’s how you do versus the overall field that’s more important by far. But I think it can become meaningful, even if it’s a tie-breaker. Player A with very similar achievements to B otherwise wins off H2H as a tiebreaker. I don’t think Serral’s winning H2H necessarily is that tiebreaker, but I do think it’s indicative of why he’s the greater player, for me. If you can’t be the all-conquering, dominant player, well another path to greatness is peaking when it counts, it’s those underdog wins, it’s you set planning to conquer the superior foe on paper. Maru’s overall performance I think is better than some give him credit for, for me he’s comfortably been the second best player in the world overall for the past half-decadish. But it’s been a long time since he pulled out the latter from his locker. It would be one thing if the match H2H was as it is now, but it’s full of all-time great series that could have gone either way. Mostly he’s just been battered over a long period of time, playing much the same way. Hey old man Mvp ultimately lost to Life, but his greatness rep was still enhanced for even getting there, testing Life to his limits despite injury really hampering his game. Lower stakes tournament sure, but Serral in recent times lost his first ZvP in forever in a patch Zergs aren’t enjoying the matchup on to out it mildly. Then another one immediately. Then come Masters Colosseum a few days later he loses to MaxPax. A day to sleep on it and make a few tweaks and he comes back and batters both him and herO to win the thing. I think it’s quite illustrative of their relative strengths and weaknesses I will add the caveat that I’m judging Maru incredibly harshly only because it’s the top end of the GOAT ranking, he’s an incredibly talented player and a pleasure to watch. But is he clutch? Can he grind it out to get over the line on the rare occasions he isn’t more skilled than an opponent? Sure, sometimes. But I’ve long thought JAGW papered over the very few cracks in his game and in this era you’re seeing them. Cracks Serral just doesn’t have. It is also worth noting that Serral still has a winning record against Clem overall, from quite a few encounters. It’s a shame the scene is as it is now because for me the two most intriguing storylines are, ‘can Clem maintain that level?’ and ‘can Serral figure out a way to live with that Clem?’ and we may never get an answer to that which is a crying shame.
I'm curious if you would feel this way if you felt Maru was underperforming due to either being injured or past his prime (no pun intended)...or both.
I feel a bit about this like I feel about watching Kobe compete against MJ or Djokovic compete against Federer in the later years. Interesting but in the end not very illustrative.
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On January 22 2025 08:23 WombaT wrote:Show nested quote +On January 22 2025 05:40 Charoisaur wrote:On January 22 2025 04:25 Balnazza wrote:On January 22 2025 04:18 Telephone wrote:
But how can he be the GOAT if he gets stomped in the finals of the biggest tournament of the season by someone not even on the GOAT list? How can Maru be the GOAT if he constantly gets stomped by someone who got stomped in one tournament by someone who is not even on the GOAT list? I mean... that's the point of his comment as I understood it. The argument that Maru can't be the Goat because he loses vs Serral is as reasonable as the argument Serral can't be the Goat because he lost 5-0 to Clem. I’m not a big fan of head-to-heads, generally it’s how you do versus the overall field that’s more important by far. But I think it can become meaningful, even if it’s a tie-breaker. Player A with very similar achievements to B otherwise wins off H2H as a tiebreaker. I don’t think Serral’s winning H2H necessarily is that tiebreaker, but I do think it’s indicative of why he’s the greater player, for me. If you can’t be the all-conquering, dominant player, well another path to greatness is peaking when it counts, it’s those underdog wins, it’s you set planning to conquer the superior foe on paper. Maru’s overall performance I think is better than some give him credit for, for me he’s comfortably been the second best player in the world overall for the past half-decadish. But it’s been a long time since he pulled out the latter from his locker. It would be one thing if the match H2H was as it is now, but it’s full of all-time great series that could have gone either way. Mostly he’s just been battered over a long period of time, playing much the same way. Hey old man Mvp ultimately lost to Life, but his greatness rep was still enhanced for even getting there, testing Life to his limits despite injury really hampering his game. Lower stakes tournament sure, but Serral in recent times lost his first ZvP in forever in a patch Zergs aren’t enjoying the matchup on to out it mildly. Then another one immediately. Then come Masters Colosseum a few days later he loses to MaxPax. A day to sleep on it and make a few tweaks and he comes back and batters both him and herO to win the thing. I think it’s quite illustrative of their relative strengths and weaknesses I will add the caveat that I’m judging Maru incredibly harshly only because it’s the top end of the GOAT ranking, he’s an incredibly talented player and a pleasure to watch. But is he clutch? Can he grind it out to get over the line on the rare occasions he isn’t more skilled than an opponent? Sure, sometimes. But I’ve long thought JAGW papered over the very few cracks in his game and in this era you’re seeing them. Cracks Serral just doesn’t have. It is also worth noting that Serral still has a winning record against Clem overall, from quite a few encounters. It’s a shame the scene is as it is now because for me the two most intriguing storylines are, ‘can Clem maintain that level?’ and ‘can Serral figure out a way to live with that Clem?’ and we may never get an answer to that which is a crying shame.
I see where you're coming from but Maru is now already in his 16th year as a fulltime pro and I don't think it's fair to judge his career by his losses to Serral at this stage of his career, he may just lack the drive now to overcome the problem after such a long time in the business.
The much better argument against him imo is the lack of a world championship, which he could win at no stage in his career. Had Maru won at least one I'd still back him as the Goat, but with Serrals continous success I agree that he finally has surpassed Maru due to the latters failure to succeed in this particular domain.
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Northern Ireland26218 Posts
On January 22 2025 09:02 Charoisaur wrote:Show nested quote +On January 22 2025 08:23 WombaT wrote:On January 22 2025 05:40 Charoisaur wrote:On January 22 2025 04:25 Balnazza wrote:On January 22 2025 04:18 Telephone wrote:
But how can he be the GOAT if he gets stomped in the finals of the biggest tournament of the season by someone not even on the GOAT list? How can Maru be the GOAT if he constantly gets stomped by someone who got stomped in one tournament by someone who is not even on the GOAT list? I mean... that's the point of his comment as I understood it. The argument that Maru can't be the Goat because he loses vs Serral is as reasonable as the argument Serral can't be the Goat because he lost 5-0 to Clem. I’m not a big fan of head-to-heads, generally it’s how you do versus the overall field that’s more important by far. But I think it can become meaningful, even if it’s a tie-breaker. Player A with very similar achievements to B otherwise wins off H2H as a tiebreaker. I don’t think Serral’s winning H2H necessarily is that tiebreaker, but I do think it’s indicative of why he’s the greater player, for me. If you can’t be the all-conquering, dominant player, well another path to greatness is peaking when it counts, it’s those underdog wins, it’s you set planning to conquer the superior foe on paper. Maru’s overall performance I think is better than some give him credit for, for me he’s comfortably been the second best player in the world overall for the past half-decadish. But it’s been a long time since he pulled out the latter from his locker. It would be one thing if the match H2H was as it is now, but it’s full of all-time great series that could have gone either way. Mostly he’s just been battered over a long period of time, playing much the same way. Hey old man Mvp ultimately lost to Life, but his greatness rep was still enhanced for even getting there, testing Life to his limits despite injury really hampering his game. Lower stakes tournament sure, but Serral in recent times lost his first ZvP in forever in a patch Zergs aren’t enjoying the matchup on to out it mildly. Then another one immediately. Then come Masters Colosseum a few days later he loses to MaxPax. A day to sleep on it and make a few tweaks and he comes back and batters both him and herO to win the thing. I think it’s quite illustrative of their relative strengths and weaknesses I will add the caveat that I’m judging Maru incredibly harshly only because it’s the top end of the GOAT ranking, he’s an incredibly talented player and a pleasure to watch. But is he clutch? Can he grind it out to get over the line on the rare occasions he isn’t more skilled than an opponent? Sure, sometimes. But I’ve long thought JAGW papered over the very few cracks in his game and in this era you’re seeing them. Cracks Serral just doesn’t have. It is also worth noting that Serral still has a winning record against Clem overall, from quite a few encounters. It’s a shame the scene is as it is now because for me the two most intriguing storylines are, ‘can Clem maintain that level?’ and ‘can Serral figure out a way to live with that Clem?’ and we may never get an answer to that which is a crying shame. I see where you're coming from but Maru is now already in his 16th year as a fulltime pro and I don't think it's fair to judge his career by his losses to Serral at this stage of his career, he may just lack the drive now to overcome the problem after such a long time in the business. The much better argument against him imo is the lack of a world championship, which he could win at no stage in his career. Had Maru won at least one I'd still back him as the Goat, but with Serrals continous success I agree that he finally has surpassed Maru due to the latters failure to succeed in this particular domain.
Maru’s claim is also hugely predicated on his longevity and what he’s accumulated from it. Which yeah 100% you have to give credit for. But what if Inno didn’t lose motivation, or what if other of Maru’s peers didn’t have to go to military?
I’m not judging him on the head to head itself as I think I said, but if not I’ll make it more clear. It’s that it exposes the weaknesses he has that have seen him unable to take a WC.
Oliveira was a crazy run, and an underdog and Maru was nigh-on impregnable in TvT at the time. He’s had Reynor on the ropes and thrown it away. In GSL we’ve seen Rogue a fair while ago, or Dark more recently come up with game plans to snipe a Maru who’s been consistently better than them at those times.
Players have upset the odds, came up with gameplans to counter Maru in the last few years. But Maru has singularly failed to do so on the rare case where he’s the underdog versus Serral. It’s not about that head to head really to me, it’s that it showcases his inability to replicate the kind of snipes he sometimes suffers from, against someone else.
Hey he’s still a lock for the upper GOAT echelons, but I think most of his honours come from his sheer talent and skill and being better than opponents at that time. When he doesn’t have that buffer I think you see some of the results come from there.
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Northern Ireland26218 Posts
On January 22 2025 08:49 rwala wrote:Show nested quote +On January 22 2025 08:23 WombaT wrote:On January 22 2025 05:40 Charoisaur wrote:On January 22 2025 04:25 Balnazza wrote:On January 22 2025 04:18 Telephone wrote:
But how can he be the GOAT if he gets stomped in the finals of the biggest tournament of the season by someone not even on the GOAT list? How can Maru be the GOAT if he constantly gets stomped by someone who got stomped in one tournament by someone who is not even on the GOAT list? I mean... that's the point of his comment as I understood it. The argument that Maru can't be the Goat because he loses vs Serral is as reasonable as the argument Serral can't be the Goat because he lost 5-0 to Clem. I’m not a big fan of head-to-heads, generally it’s how you do versus the overall field that’s more important by far. But I think it can become meaningful, even if it’s a tie-breaker. Player A with very similar achievements to B otherwise wins off H2H as a tiebreaker. I don’t think Serral’s winning H2H necessarily is that tiebreaker, but I do think it’s indicative of why he’s the greater player, for me. If you can’t be the all-conquering, dominant player, well another path to greatness is peaking when it counts, it’s those underdog wins, it’s you set planning to conquer the superior foe on paper. Maru’s overall performance I think is better than some give him credit for, for me he’s comfortably been the second best player in the world overall for the past half-decadish. But it’s been a long time since he pulled out the latter from his locker. It would be one thing if the match H2H was as it is now, but it’s full of all-time great series that could have gone either way. Mostly he’s just been battered over a long period of time, playing much the same way. Hey old man Mvp ultimately lost to Life, but his greatness rep was still enhanced for even getting there, testing Life to his limits despite injury really hampering his game. Lower stakes tournament sure, but Serral in recent times lost his first ZvP in forever in a patch Zergs aren’t enjoying the matchup on to out it mildly. Then another one immediately. Then come Masters Colosseum a few days later he loses to MaxPax. A day to sleep on it and make a few tweaks and he comes back and batters both him and herO to win the thing. I think it’s quite illustrative of their relative strengths and weaknesses I will add the caveat that I’m judging Maru incredibly harshly only because it’s the top end of the GOAT ranking, he’s an incredibly talented player and a pleasure to watch. But is he clutch? Can he grind it out to get over the line on the rare occasions he isn’t more skilled than an opponent? Sure, sometimes. But I’ve long thought JAGW papered over the very few cracks in his game and in this era you’re seeing them. Cracks Serral just doesn’t have. It is also worth noting that Serral still has a winning record against Clem overall, from quite a few encounters. It’s a shame the scene is as it is now because for me the two most intriguing storylines are, ‘can Clem maintain that level?’ and ‘can Serral figure out a way to live with that Clem?’ and we may never get an answer to that which is a crying shame. I'm curious if you would feel this way if you felt Maru was underperforming due to either being injured or past his prime (no pun intended)...or both. I feel a bit about this like I feel about watching Kobe compete against MJ or Djokovic compete against Federer in the later years. Interesting but in the end not very illustrative.
37 year old Djokovic beat Carlos Alcaraz in the Australian open like yesterday to make the Ro4. I’m a giant Federer fanboy but I have to concede Djokovic is the GOAT, the ultimate competitor. Got battered in the Wimbledon final but won the Olympics against the same opponent.
Transplant that to SC2 and it’s basically the same. Perhaps Maru can’t do it every time, but do it sometime you know? Djokovic isn’t dominating the ATP tour anymore, but he’s still got a Grand Slam run in him.
If injuries were the issue, and I know they are an issue fair enough but it doesn’t really fit Maru’s performance profile for the last few years. He’s still putting in basically incredible results against everyone not called Serral.
They’re a factor, but IMO they’re not the issue really, least there. Mvp dropped off from jetting all over the place and winning, to those results dropping off and him having a GSL run playing a totally different style. Taeja’s results just declined and declined.
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On January 22 2025 05:40 Charoisaur wrote:Show nested quote +On January 22 2025 04:25 Balnazza wrote:On January 22 2025 04:18 Telephone wrote:
But how can he be the GOAT if he gets stomped in the finals of the biggest tournament of the season by someone not even on the GOAT list? How can Maru be the GOAT if he constantly gets stomped by someone who got stomped in one tournament by someone who is not even on the GOAT list? I mean... that's the point of his comment as I understood it. The argument that Maru can't be the Goat because he loses vs Serral is as reasonable as the argument Serral can't be the Goat because he lost 5-0 to Clem.
What if since Serral bops Maru, Clem bops Serral (recently), and Gumiho bops Clem, we concluded Gumiho = Goat and all went home happy?
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The only thing I didn't agree in the original ranking was the omission of Dark and Serral/Maru debate. Glad to see both things fixed.
Respect for Miz to update the ranking. I can imagine how hard it is to walk back on your position after defending it for a whole year. But it's for the best.
I wonder how often the Serral/Maru situation happens in any sports. Imagine Jordan and LeBron plays in the same era, both had the same decorated career but never meet in the finals, and when they finally meet MJ sweeps LeBron two years straight. That's basically what happens in SC2 in 2024.
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This year was disappointing as a Maru fan. On one hand he had unbelievable consistency and won yet another GSL and Stars War and made 3 other finals. But the one sided beat down Serral put on him in so many consecutive maps over a bunch of events was crazy. Especially since TvZ has been pretty balanced last year. At least in 2022 when Serral beat him a few times it was obvious Zerg was the best race and their lifetime h2h wasn't that one sided yet.
I still think if Maru had won a Blizzcon or Kato at any point in his career he would be the goat despite the poor h2h vs Serral but unfortunately he just couldn't do it despite being the favorite many times.
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Any list without TaeJa is bunk. So don't waste time on this.
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On January 22 2025 13:52 ZerOCoolSC2 wrote:
Any list without TaeJa is bunk. So don't waste time on this.
He said, wasting time on this.
But in all honesty: These kind of comments always remind me of a meme-list I once saw. It was about "ten mild inconveniences that are the worst", with No. 10 being "your mild inconvenience that is the worst not being on this list, making this list a mild inconvenience that is just the worst"
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On January 22 2025 14:35 Balnazza wrote:Show nested quote +On January 22 2025 13:52 ZerOCoolSC2 wrote:
Any list without TaeJa is bunk. So don't waste time on this. He said, wasting time on this. But in all honesty: These kind of comments always remind me of a meme-list I once saw. It was about "ten mild inconveniences that are the worst", with No. 10 being "your mild inconvenience that is the worst not being on this list, making this list a mild inconvenience that is just the worst"
TaeJa is nowhere near the GOAT discussion. You can debate if he is #9/10 or whatever.. but to invalidate a list just because you like someone that peaked for barely 2 years.. to each their own I guess.
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On January 22 2025 08:03 rwala wrote:I'm probably in search of controversy (i.e. fun) for an update that is frankly not likely to be very controversial, but I do wonder--given the respective 2024s Maru and Dark had--how Dark could gain four slots while Maru could lose one. I mean, I don't really wonder, but I want people to wonder
I thought the same, but took Miz' own word "reviewing" as perhaps re-calibrating his weightings. But we can only guess, as he never exactly showed the weightings (which perhaps was a good choice, looking at how people were arguing about weighing metrics, that wouldn't have made any difference in the end, differently when I published my list).
On January 22 2025 08:23 WombaT wrote:Show nested quote +On January 22 2025 05:40 Charoisaur wrote:On January 22 2025 04:25 Balnazza wrote:On January 22 2025 04:18 Telephone wrote:
But how can he be the GOAT if he gets stomped in the finals of the biggest tournament of the season by someone not even on the GOAT list? How can Maru be the GOAT if he constantly gets stomped by someone who got stomped in one tournament by someone who is not even on the GOAT list? I mean... that's the point of his comment as I understood it. The argument that Maru can't be the Goat because he loses vs Serral is as reasonable as the argument Serral can't be the Goat because he lost 5-0 to Clem. I’m not a big fan of head-to-heads, generally it’s how you do versus the overall field that’s more important by far. But I think it can become meaningful, even if it’s a tie-breaker. Player A with very similar achievements to B otherwise wins off H2H as a tiebreaker. I don’t think Serral’s winning H2H necessarily is that tiebreaker, but I do think it’s indicative of why he’s the greater player, for me. If you can’t be the all-conquering, dominant player, well another path to greatness is peaking when it counts, it’s those underdog wins, it’s you set planning to conquer the superior foe on paper. Maru’s overall performance I think is better than some give him credit for, for me he’s comfortably been the second best player in the world overall for the past half-decadish. But it’s been a long time since he pulled out the latter from his locker. It would be one thing if the match H2H was as it is now, but it’s full of all-time great series that could have gone either way. Mostly he’s just been battered over a long period of time, playing much the same way. Hey old man Mvp ultimately lost to Life, but his greatness rep was still enhanced for even getting there, testing Life to his limits despite injury really hampering his game. Lower stakes tournament sure, but Serral in recent times lost his first ZvP in forever in a patch Zergs aren’t enjoying the matchup on to out it mildly. Then another one immediately. Then come Masters Colosseum a few days later he loses to MaxPax. A day to sleep on it and make a few tweaks and he comes back and batters both him and herO to win the thing. I think it’s quite illustrative of their relative strengths and weaknesses I will add the caveat that I’m judging Maru incredibly harshly only because it’s the top end of the GOAT ranking, he’s an incredibly talented player and a pleasure to watch. But is he clutch? Can he grind it out to get over the line on the rare occasions he isn’t more skilled than an opponent? Sure, sometimes. But I’ve long thought JAGW papered over the very few cracks in his game and in this era you’re seeing them. Cracks Serral just doesn’t have. It is also worth noting that Serral still has a winning record against Clem overall, from quite a few encounters. It’s a shame the scene is as it is now because for me the two most intriguing storylines are, ‘can Clem maintain that level?’ and ‘can Serral figure out a way to live with that Clem?’ and we may never get an answer to that which is a crying shame.
I agree with your takes. Even if we look at rather subjective metrics, Maru for the most part of his career was never considered the best (probably mostly around 2018 when Serral's long lasting emergence wasn't clear yet).
And I totally agree with your last part... I very much hope that they will face at LiuLi and if Serral can't do it then, that we are able to witness another adaption of Serral at some other future tournament versus Clem.
On January 22 2025 15:56 onPHYRE wrote:Show nested quote +On January 22 2025 14:35 Balnazza wrote:On January 22 2025 13:52 ZerOCoolSC2 wrote:
Any list without TaeJa is bunk. So don't waste time on this. He said, wasting time on this. But in all honesty: These kind of comments always remind me of a meme-list I once saw. It was about "ten mild inconveniences that are the worst", with No. 10 being "your mild inconvenience that is the worst not being on this list, making this list a mild inconvenience that is just the worst" TaeJa is nowhere near the GOAT discussion. You can debate if he is #9/10 or whatever.. but to invalidate a list just because you like someone that peaked for barely 2 years.. to each their own I guess.
Focusing on a Top 10 bring exactly such issues with itself. My idea was to circumvent such discussions, by focusing on 4 contenders that checked certain metrics, after pre-analyzing around 16 players. But even then people were mad that some of the 16 didn't make it in the Top 4 :D
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On January 22 2025 06:36 Waxangel wrote:you're welcome content creators for some stuff to fill the gap after MC8 & LiuLi Cup
Liuli cup is just getting started 
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EPT
