EPTNow there is something fresh to argue about!
Flash
Serral
Faker
N0tail
S1imple?
Greatest Players of All Time: 2025 Update - Page 10
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Harris1st
Germany7044 Posts
Now there is something fresh to argue about! Flash Serral Faker N0tail S1imple? | ||
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Argonauta
Spain4959 Posts
On July 29 2025 15:59 Harris1st wrote: I do like that the discussion is shifting from Serral beeing the GOAT (which at this point even the most thickheaded numbskulls know) to Serral beeing one of the most successful video game players of all time. Now there is something fresh to argue about! Flash Serral Faker N0tail S1imple? That is just your opinion, dont treat it as a reality. Also I think that if you want to discuss cross game topics, I think this is not the space to do so. | ||
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PremoBeats
539 Posts
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Poopi
France12907 Posts
On July 29 2025 15:59 Harris1st wrote: I do like that the discussion is shifting from Serral beeing the GOAT (which at this point even the most thickheaded numbskulls know) to Serral beeing one of the most successful video game players of all time. Now there is something fresh to argue about! Flash Serral Faker N0tail S1imple? I wouldn't be so sure everyone thinks he is the GOAT in sc2, but comparing him to Flash and especially Faker doesn't make any sense lmao. Dunno who N0tail is, but I started following counter strike and s1mple is one of the GOAT candidates, but another one is ZyWOo who is still on top of his game, playing for the best team in the world, while s1mple was on the bench and has now been recruited by a tier 3 team, so ZyWOo will probably be #1 GOAT for sure, but those two ain't in the same ballpark as Flash and even less than Faker. Like Faker is the GOAT of video games at this point, being so far up the competition in the most popular esport game, still going on winning Worlds and finishing 2nd at MSI (huge international tournament, only better tourney is Worlds) when the players against / with him in his first titles are now retired. So yeah, winning stuff in a virtually niche scene when there are barely enough top players to have the equivalent of 2 LoL pro teams (10 players) doesn't really improve your case about video game players overall. I would say someone like Formal who won stuff across two series of titles (CoD and Halo) might have a better shot, but afaik he isn't even the GOAT in either game (but still one of the greats in both). edit: I would even go as far as say that when Faker retires, LoL esports will take a real hit, while no other player for other games is bigger than his game | ||
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LennX
4564 Posts
On July 29 2025 23:58 Poopi wrote: [...] Dunno who N0tail is, but I started following counter strike and s1mple is one of the GOAT candidates, but another one is ZyWOo who is still on top of his game, playing for the best team in the world, while s1mple was on the bench and has now been recruited by a tier 3 team, so ZyWOo will probably be #1 GOAT for sure, but those two ain't in the same ballpark as Flash and even less than Faker. Like Faker is the GOAT of video games at this point, being so far up the competition in the most popular esport game, still going on winning Worlds and finishing 2nd at MSI (huge international tournament, only better tourney is Worlds) when the players against / with him in his first titles are now retired. So yeah, winning stuff in a virtually niche scene when there are barely enough top players to have the equivalent of 2 LoL pro teams (10 players) doesn't really improve your case about video game players overall. I would say someone like Formal who won stuff across two series of titles (CoD and Halo) might have a better shot, but afaik he isn't even the GOAT in either game (but still one of the greats in both). edit: I would even go as far as say that when Faker retires, LoL esports will take a real hit, while no other player for other games is bigger than his game https://liquipedia.net/dota2/N0tail He is the player with the highest tournament earnings in Dota 2. https://liquipedia.net/dota2/Portal:Statistics#By_player Other than that, yes I agree with Faker being the most important eSports player currently | ||
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WombaT
Northern Ireland26225 Posts
On July 29 2025 15:59 Harris1st wrote: I do like that the discussion is shifting from Serral beeing the GOAT (which at this point even the most thickheaded numbskulls know) to Serral beeing one of the most successful video game players of all time. Now there is something fresh to argue about! Flash Serral Faker N0tail S1imple? I wish I knew more about other eSports to have much of an opinion! I assume, but may be wrong that in team eSports you tend to see that the best talents, also end up with the best supporting cast over time? Or does that not end up being the case commonly? If player x is maybe like say, 1% better than player y, so ends up on a team that’s 5% better, you maybe end up seeing a narrow gap in skill growing in terms of results. But as I said, I don’t know such things, so I’m just asking questions! I like Flash is an obvious lock. Huge game, 1v1 so it’s all on his shoulders come match time, and he’s got a sizeable gap on his biggest competition. And a crazy difficult game to play at that level mechanically. Serral for me, not an absolute lock but definitely in the conversation. I just don’t know enough about who other contenders are and what their claims are like. But he’s playing a 1v1 game that’s still crazy mechanically difficult, even if a little less, and his results are pretty remarkable. With the added narrative bonus of breaking the foreigner glass ceiling. | ||
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Balnazza
Germany1254 Posts
On July 30 2025 00:58 WombaT wrote: I wish I knew more about other eSports to have much of an opinion! I assume, but may be wrong that in team eSports you tend to see that the best talents, also end up with the best supporting cast over time? Or does that not end up being the case commonly? If player x is maybe like say, 1% better than player y, so ends up on a team that’s 5% better, you maybe end up seeing a narrow gap in skill growing in terms of results. But as I said, I don’t know such things, so I’m just asking questions! I like Flash is an obvious lock. Huge game, 1v1 so it’s all on his shoulders come match time, and he’s got a sizeable gap on his biggest competition. And a crazy difficult game to play at that level mechanically. Serral for me, not an absolute lock but definitely in the conversation. I just don’t know enough about who other contenders are and what their claims are like. But he’s playing a 1v1 game that’s still crazy mechanically difficult, even if a little less, and his results are pretty remarkable. With the added narrative bonus of breaking the foreigner glass ceiling. It is of course hard to be the GOAT in a teamgame, but especially with Faker he is clearly beyond reproach. Guy carried (SKT) T1 to I think four or five World Championships in three or four iterations. In a game as highly competitive as LoL to be considered the best in your position for 10+ years is just crazy. And he is still so competitive and hungry. Last year he made a bit of a scene when after a loss he smashed his head repeatedly against a wall, so hard his teammates actually had to stop him. But you don't become the "Unstoppable Demon King" for nothing. S1mple would be another example. He was in a great team (NaVi), but still had to drag their asses along for some periods. I guess that is why people pick him over dev1ce, which would probably be my GOAT-pick. Then you have players in CS like NiKo who is widely considered to be atleast a Top 3 Rifler of all time, but he always manages to be in teams that don't deliver, so he is still missing that biggest of trophies. Some other GOATs I would mention: Moon, Sky, Grubby or Happy, depending on who you pick for WC3 TheViper in AoE 2 Styla/Hero, the Schellhase-twins of FIFA (no idea if they are considered GOATs tbh, FIFA/EAFC is way too volatile for me to keep up) Rapha in Quake I guess? (so I will always cheer for my german boy k1llsen) And of course: Jonas Neubauer, the sadly deceased record world champion of Tetris Classic  Ranking Serral (or whoever you pick for SC2) in all this is hard. I would put him above the Schellhase-Twins or TheViper for sure, but quite a lot under Faker for example. But in the end: You can't really compare GOATs, because the title of GOAT is clearly defined in the limitation and specifications of each discipline. Yes, TheViper dominated a game that was much less competitive than WC3 or SC2 for example. But while other people may say it is super-easy to do - he actually did it. And that still demands a lot of respect for his success. | ||
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WombaT
Northern Ireland26225 Posts
On July 30 2025 02:25 Balnazza wrote: It is of course hard to be the GOAT in a teamgame, but especially with Faker he is clearly beyond reproach. Guy carried (SKT) T1 to I think four or five World Championships in three or four iterations. In a game as highly competitive as LoL to be considered the best in your position for 10+ years is just crazy. And he is still so competitive and hungry. Last year he made a bit of a scene when after a loss he smashed his head repeatedly against a wall, so hard his teammates actually had to stop him. But you don't become the "Unstoppable Demon King" for nothing. S1mple would be another example. He was in a great team (NaVi), but still had to drag their asses along for some periods. I guess that is why people pick him over dev1ce, which would probably be my GOAT-pick. Then you have players in CS like NiKo who is widely considered to be atleast a Top 3 Rifler of all time, but he always manages to be in teams that don't deliver, so he is still missing that biggest of trophies. Some other GOATs I would mention: Moon, Sky, Grubby or Happy, depending on who you pick for WC3 TheViper in AoE 2 Styla/Hero, the Schellhase-twins of FIFA (no idea if they are considered GOATs tbh, FIFA/EAFC is way too volatile for me to keep up) Rapha in Quake I guess? (so I will always cheer for my german boy k1llsen) And of course: Jonas Neubauer, the sadly deceased record world champion of Tetris Classic Ranking Serral (or whoever you pick for SC2) in all this is hard. I would put him above the Schellhase-Twins or TheViper for sure, but quite a lot under Faker for example. But in the end: You can't really compare GOATs, because the title of GOAT is clearly defined in the limitation and specifications of each discipline. Yes, TheViper dominated a game that was much less competitive than WC3 or SC2 for example. But while other people may say it is super-easy to do - he actually did it. And that still demands a lot of respect for his success. Oh shit Jonas Neubauer passed? Man that sucks. I know of Faker’s reputation, I just hate MOBAs (no shade, personal preference), but to have his reputation I imagine he routinely does things that other players just can’t do in his position? To an outsider like me to be so venerated to a degree I know who he is, he must be capable of crazy shit and it’s just not a case of his trophy cabinet and actual tangible accomplishments, would I be correct in assuming that? I’d consider speed runners, or a Tetris high score in a different category, it’s man or woman against game, as opposed to man or woman against game but also directly against other humans. Your competition can’t directly influence your gameplay If we’re talking straight up greatest gamers, there’s definitely some speed runners I’d have up there | ||
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Balnazza
Germany1254 Posts
On July 30 2025 02:53 WombaT wrote: Oh shit Jonas Neubauer passed? Man that sucks. I know of Faker’s reputation, I just hate MOBAs (no shade, personal preference), but to have his reputation I imagine he routinely does things that other players just can’t do in his position? To an outsider like me to be so venerated to a degree I know who he is, he must be capable of crazy shit and it’s just not a case of his trophy cabinet and actual tangible accomplishments, would I be correct in assuming that? I’d consider speed runners, or a Tetris high score in a different category, it’s man or woman against game, as opposed to man or woman against game but also directly against other humans. Your competition can’t directly influence your gameplay If we’re talking straight up greatest gamers, there’s definitely some speed runners I’d have up there There are definetly some "Air Jordan"-moments of Faker, but even more so it is just his consistency and ability to deliver in the tensest of moments. Also his incredibly deep Champion pool, it is basically not possible to outban him. Doing the little things perfect each and every time might not be as flashy, but it is certainly better compared to doing something extraordinary once and then never again. I was considering some speedrunners, though that comes down to preference, game and setting. For example, one of my alltime-favorite GOATs in speedrunning will forever be 360Chrism, just because of his crazy 0 Star SM64-run at GDQ - the first human to actually do a 0 Star run successfully in a marathon setting. ...we will get whacked by Waxangel soon, won't we? Sorry... | ||
Mizenhauer
United States1911 Posts
On July 29 2025 21:35 PremoBeats wrote: Back on topic: Miz, in regards to the 4 time zones you established: In no particular order... who were the top 3 (4 or 5 is also ok, if you can't nail it down to 3) players of each? Here they are. Remember that in my process, the players are first compared to their peers before being measured against players from other time periods. I'm not gonna wrack my brain for a top three for each stretch of time, but I'll name some of the players that would have a chance of being considered top 3/were emblematic of the period. 2010-2012: Wings of Liberty three year prime: NesTea, Mvp, MC, MMA, DRG and MKP 2010-2015:: Extended five year prime for WoL players: MC, MMA and DRG 2013-2015: KeSPA/Heart of the Swarm three year prime: Rain, Zest, soO, INnoVation, sOs, Maru, PartinG, herO and Classic 2013-2017: Extended five year prime for Hots player: Zest, soO, INnoVation, sOs, herO, Classic and Maru 2016-2018: Legacy of the Void three year prime: Dark, TY, Maru, Rogue, Stats and Serral 2018-2020: Three year prime and five year primes from 2016: Maru, Serral, Rogue, Dark, Reynor, Trap and TY 2016-2021: Extended five year prime: Dark, Rogue, TY, Maru, Trap, Stats, Serral and Reynor 2018-Present*: Extended five prime prime from 2018: Maru, Serral, Rogue, herO, Reynor and Clem *I started working on the articles in 2023 so that worked out really well since I was hoping to use a 2018-2013 time period, but as time went on (the articles didn't come out until 2024) it was easier to use the term present. I continue to tracking this stuff to this day. There's a huge amount of information in the goat articles and I like to add to them as time passes. | ||
BisuDagger
Bisutopia19302 Posts
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WombaT
Northern Ireland26225 Posts
On July 30 2025 06:12 BisuDagger wrote: I’d say it’s hard to argue Serral is above Soulkey given his level of success across two games. I think comparing their greatness is a pretty good debate to be had. Perhaps, but there’s no realistic path for Serral to be great at Brood War either. Like how would he possibly make that jump? I’ve actually argued that a University project where you take someone like Serral and coach him to being a top BW player would be absolutely lit and bring in foreign interest at the same time. But such a pathway doesn’t exist. Even gifted Korean talents can’t break through to ASL contention Serral is definitely better than Soulkey in such a consideration IMO. Serral has basically been the guy for 7 years. Soulkey had some impressive early SC2 results but went back to BW pretty quick. | ||
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BisuDagger
Bisutopia19302 Posts
On July 30 2025 06:42 WombaT wrote: Perhaps, but there’s no realistic path for Serral to be great at Brood War either. Like how would he possibly make that jump? I’ve actually argued that a University project where you take someone like Serral and coach him to being a top BW player would be absolutely lit and bring in foreign interest at the same time. But such a pathway doesn’t exist. Even gifted Korean talents can’t break through to ASL contention Serral is definitely better than Soulkey in such a consideration IMO. Serral has basically been the guy for 7 years. Soulkey had some impressive early SC2 results but went back to BW pretty quick. I mean more of, when discussing GOATs across all sports, I would say Serral is at the same rank as Soulkey on that list in my book. And I put Soulkey at that level cause of his multi game success, age while still being successful, and overcoming/surviving a massive scam. | ||
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WombaT
Northern Ireland26225 Posts
On July 30 2025 08:14 BisuDagger wrote: I mean more of, when discussing GOATs across all sports, I would say Serral is at the same rank as Soulkey on that list in my book. And I put Soulkey at that level cause of his multi game success, age while still being successful, and overcoming/surviving a massive scam. He’s nowhere near being the GOAT in either game, although his accomplishments are extremely impressive. I’m not even sure he’s even the best dual StarCraft player. Jaedong had actually pretty damn good results, a Blizzcon final, while of course also being Jaedong in BW. Rain hasn’t quite managed Soulkey’s BW record, but still has titles. And he was a considerably better SC2 player. Flash as an SC2 player was only ever considered underwhelming because of his name. He was very solid in Proleague and tournaments in general and won a Premier international as well, alongside being Flash in BW | ||
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TeamMamba
170 Posts
On July 30 2025 00:46 LennX wrote: https://liquipedia.net/dota2/N0tail He is the player with the highest tournament earnings in Dota 2. https://liquipedia.net/dota2/Portal:Statistics#By_player Other than that, yes I agree with Faker being the most important eSports player currently It might be just me, but any team related games should not be included in any overall esport goat talks. I put 1v1 competition way above games such as lol dota etc (even though they are way popular games) Fighting gamers > dota or lol gamers in term of skills | ||
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WombaT
Northern Ireland26225 Posts
On July 30 2025 13:35 TeamMamba wrote: It might be just me, but any team related games should not be included in any overall esport goat talks. I put 1v1 competition way above games such as lol dota etc (even though they are way popular games) Fighting gamers > dota or lol gamers in term of skills I dunno about less skilled, there’s a lot of additional stuff to worry about in MOBAs, team strats and coordination come into play as well. I do agree that they’re very hard to compare though. You could see this if you imagined team modes were just as balanced and became the norm in SC2. If a player had a spectacular, flashy late game, but frequently died trying to get there through weaknesses like being greedy, and bad reads, they could get a teammate who covers those gaps. I imagine most fans watching would see the spectacular lategame monster and rate them as the GOAT, but they mightn’t be able to do what they do without their teammate and their less flashy skillset | ||
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Poopi
France12907 Posts
On July 30 2025 13:35 TeamMamba wrote: It might be just me, but any team related games should not be included in any overall esport goat talks. I put 1v1 competition way above games such as lol dota etc (even though they are way popular games) Fighting gamers > dota or lol gamers in term of skills Probably rage bait / troll like most of your posts, but do you Even watch games from both genres? I watch / watched SSBM extensively (One of the most demanding fighter games) and LoL regularly (the most popular esport game on the planet, with the fiercest competition with players from all over the world trying hard etc), and even though it is difficult to compare team games and 1v1 games, it’s pretty silly to think team gamers are less skilled than 1v1 gamers. You could put any player from RTS / fighting games and he would have very Little chances of reaching the very top in a MOBA. If those players were more skilled, they could gather and win easy money in the team games, right? Wonder why they don’t / you don’t hear about them? Because some tried, at least from the sc2 WoL scene since LoL became popular around the time Sc2 WoL was at its peak. None of them became successful. They were all former sc2 / BW pros, very difficult 1v1 games. Edit: to further add to my point, we can see that if more skilled players come to another game, they are able to dominate / hang along the previous top players. The best example would be the retired sc2 players favorite RTS: AoE4. Mid tier EU players or former pros / streamers such as MarineLord, Leenock, TOP, Demuslim, etc. came to play AoE 4 and were very successful in the game. So if you are as skilled / more skilled as other players, you should be able to come to their game and dominate or hang along. The fact that nobody does it from 1v1 to games like LoL is simple: LoL pros aren’t less skilled, and since the game is so popular, most talents will choose to play the game, so Even if you are a skilled 1v1 player, you won’t be particularly better than the other LoL pros. If LoL didn’t exist in KR, maybe some current KR LoL pros would have picked up sc2 or BW or whatever, and they would have been the new blood in this scene. | ||
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dave4reborn
14 Posts
Serral is of course #1 and has been for between 5-7 years depending who u ask. Personally i can see both sides but am a bit hesitant to give credit over the full 7 year bonjwa period I will lean on the 5 years conservative estimate. But understamd if others think its more like 7 years and starts in his 2018 peak that was well beyond all historic prior performances. User was banned for this post. | ||
Kreuger
Sweden805 Posts
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jodljodl
176 Posts
I don't think there's merit in looking for a goat of esports. Same as there's little merit in discussing who's the best ball sports player or the goat when it comes to sliding down a snowy mountain. Yes, there are games that are very, very similiar. It maybe makes sense to disscuss who's the goat of a set of very similiar games. E.g. sc2 and bw. But I believe you need a very different skill set to become very successful in eg. lol or sc2, as eg Wombat already mentioned above. Doesn't mean those skill sets don't overlap. However, the complement 'lol skill set without sc2 skill set' is definitely not empty. I'm not so sure about the reverse though. How would one compare such games that require different skills, or their players? To do that, one would have to start weighting different skills, wouldn't they? Honestly, just the thought of it already feels strange; which abilities of a person are more valuable... Sc2/bw stand out in the esports scene because they're just insanely hard mechanically, I think. And i guess about every game requires a minimum amount of mechanical skill. This allows me to mount my high horse and look down on any other esport. What I do, if I'm completely honest with myself. Yes, lol or w/e is hard. But sc2 is harder. And I play sc2. I can see this as a reason why people propose the goat of sc2 as the goat of esports. And of course they are right. Because sc2 is harder  | ||
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