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On July 13 2024 14:03 tigera6 wrote:Show nested quote +On July 13 2024 13:49 Gantz023 wrote:
Dont get me wrong... u prepare against someone knowing his weakness, as example they have mentioned Reynor has been very open in saying what are the things he has problems dealing with. Serral on the other hand (apparently) has no problem going to the Late game... or mech... no problem... how do you prepare against that? first u must find the weakness to prepare against. Can anyone tell how to prepare against that?
In the interview with Hero he said it clearly... when he thinks he can find a small Rift and take advantage to win a game... when he plays against Serral in a tournament he is simply another beast. He feels like he can't do anything.
In a game where 95% of the games are standard......the master of the standards will be the favorite.
Personally I LOVE Reynor but... he is far from achieving the consistency in his game, scout, even build preparation that Serral has. I wouldnt say herO is an example of playing the prep build, he just decide on whatever build he feels like it at the moment. Having said that, the issue with prepped against Serral is that there is no Zerg playing like Serral at the moment, and I doubt any Zerg would switch their playstyle just to help other players to practice against Serral even if they were teammate. Dark is the closest one what can match certain aspect of Serral playstyle, but hes not on any team, and I doubt he would try to help any other players by practicing with them and also allow them to prep for Dark himself. So basically to prep against Serral, you have to play a bunch of games against Serral himself. And thats why the 2 guys who have given Serral a good run for his money are Clem and Oliveira. Clem plays against Serral on ladder a bunch of time, so he got pretty used to it by now, and Oliveira has been Serral practice partner in recent time. Imo Maru has the mechanics to play even against Serral but his in-game decision making has been terrible, not just against Serral but also against Dark in the GSL Final. And its not helping that Maru teammate is Solar, playing the almost opposite Zerg style as Serral/Dark in ZvT.
to say that hero is not a player who is considered to be Prep his games against his opponents....don't you think that is a bit contradictory??... because if he reaches the semi-finals of the GSL, a tournament that everyone says Prep is "the most important")
If Hero reaches the final it is because other things are more important than preparation... Consistency, Scout, understanding of the game, reading the plays with minimal information, quick decisions in the game, adaptability, you can keep in mind making a build , but if the circumstances do not exist, be able to adapt.
Let's not lie to ourselves... SC2 is an old game, little is seen of new plays... 95% is standard and known.
For the second point... I ask a question... how do you improve and push yourself to the limits in SC2... well there are no secrets here, just playing against better players that you will improve. So basically you are saying that Serral is a better player and only by playing against him Korean players could raise their level. I don't know if Serral is willing to do this either...
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I dont think herO prepping for any particular opponent, he likes to dictate the pace early and play his own aggressive style no matter who hes playing against. But herO has a good variety of build so he can just pick one at any moment in time and its probably looking good.
And like I said, if you want to prep against someone, you need to plan a specific strategy against that player base on his build and timing. Its not just about getting better overall, its about getting into the rhythm and be able to make the correct decision base on the plan. I am saying that if KR players want to beat Serral, they need to practice more against his style, which is virtually different from every other Zerg from the planet, outside of Dark who also doesnt want to practice much against his potential opponents neither.
Back in the StarLeague day, I think most teams have players that was specialized in playing the build from others and become practice partner for teammate. But I dont think we have seen that or heard about it in recent times for KR scene.
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On July 14 2024 01:02 tigera6 wrote:
I dont think herO prepping for any particular opponent, he likes to dictate the pace early and play his own aggressive style no matter who hes playing against. But herO has a good variety of build so he can just pick one at any moment in time and its probably looking good.
And like I said, if you want to prep against someone, you need to plan a specific strategy against that player base on his build and timing. Its not just about getting better overall, its about getting into the rhythm and be able to make the correct decision base on the plan. I am saying that if KR players want to beat Serral, they need to practice more against his style, which is virtually different from every other Zerg from the planet, outside of Dark who also doesnt want to practice much against his potential opponents neither.
Back in the StarLeague day, I think most teams have players that was specialized in playing the build from others and become practice partner for teammate. But I dont think we have seen that or heard about it in recent times for KR scene.
And Which is that Style Serral that "that Diferent from the other zerg " ???..... BTW It is Serral that demonstrated Prep... the games between Oliveira-Serral and Maru-Serral... They were totally different and a masterclass on how to destroy Maru's style of play. and Maru on the other hand, the God of the GSL of preparation, without being able to adapt, without showing flexibility, without knowing how to read the attacks.
We are going to pray that we don't have such an overwhelming final and that it is a good show... Maru has had 6 months to study Serral's style. and EVERYONE KNOWS (and I think there is no debate at this point) that if they want to win the tournament they will have to beat Serral at one time or another.
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Northern Ireland26265 Posts
Yeah it seems unlikely that with double elim, some quite long series that whoever wins can hope to avoid Serral. The most consistent player around and a format that seems to reward consistency pretty heavily
Still, stranger things have happened.
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On July 14 2024 01:23 Gantz023 wrote:Show nested quote +On July 14 2024 01:02 tigera6 wrote:
I dont think herO prepping for any particular opponent, he likes to dictate the pace early and play his own aggressive style no matter who hes playing against. But herO has a good variety of build so he can just pick one at any moment in time and its probably looking good.
And like I said, if you want to prep against someone, you need to plan a specific strategy against that player base on his build and timing. Its not just about getting better overall, its about getting into the rhythm and be able to make the correct decision base on the plan. I am saying that if KR players want to beat Serral, they need to practice more against his style, which is virtually different from every other Zerg from the planet, outside of Dark who also doesnt want to practice much against his potential opponents neither.
Back in the StarLeague day, I think most teams have players that was specialized in playing the build from others and become practice partner for teammate. But I dont think we have seen that or heard about it in recent times for KR scene.
And Which is that Style Serral that "that Diferent from the other zerg " ???..... BTW It is Serral that demonstrated Prep... the games between Oliveira-Serral and Maru-Serral... They were totally different and a masterclass on how to destroy Maru's style of play. and Maru on the other hand, the God of the GSL of preparation, without being able to adapt, without showing flexibility, without knowing how to read the attacks. We are going to pray that we don't have such an overwhelming final and that it is a good show... Maru has had 6 months to study Serral's style. and EVERYONE KNOWS (and I think there is no debate at this point) that if they want to win the tournament they will have to beat Serral at one time or another.
Serral recently plays a lower econ build, less Drone count and prioritize getting out more units earlier. That means he will have less of a bank to work with in the mid-game but incredibly safe to most early Terran push, and he can decide to unload all of those army units onto the opponent if they slip up. Meanwhile Maru TvZ has been hyper greedy in the mid-game, hes going double upgrade, Ghost and 4th CC while on 90 worker and as the result was never maxed out against the Zerg army attack. I dont think he was showing any specific prepped build against Serral in the last 2 Grand Final that they met, and get bopped as expected. Not sure if he has learned anything from that, but thats just what I have seen.
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[/QUOTE]
Serral recently plays a lower econ build, less Drone count and prioritize getting out more units earlier. That means he will have less of a bank to work with in the mid-game but incredibly safe to most early Terran push, and he can decide to unload all of those army units onto the opponent if they slip up. Meanwhile Maru TvZ has been hyper greedy in the mid-game, hes going double upgrade, Ghost and 4th CC while on 90 worker and as the result was never maxed out against the Zerg army attack. I dont think he was showing any specific prepped build against Serral in the last 2 Grand Final that they met, and get bopped as expected. Not sure if he has learned anything from that, but thats just what I have seen.
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It's a good read of the games. completely agree.
But when analyzing Serral he is just playing safe and is comfortable going into the late game as long as he doesn't take significant damage in the early-mid. Of course, if he sees that he has the opportunity to punish you for being greedy (Maru's problem), he doesn't hesitate to do so. Therefore, if you are not able to kill him, you are forced to go to the late area where he apparently feels comfortable and you have to prevent him from mining your part of the map. and you just have to be better at this part of the game. which I repeat, IS THE STANDAR. where Serral is the favorite. and every other Zerg has trouble in this part of the game.
Prepare against that is really hard. dunno what koreans must do it, even if he plays a Bo3 or some games in the GSL... we will see something similar. I wouldn't expect anything radically different. And if someone tries it, it's probably just an all-in that can be solved with a good Scout. that is what serral usual do when he si the favourite, just play safe.
anything can happen. Maybe Serral is not the champion. I just hope to see good games.
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Is there a group of death, dismemberment, and dissolution in acid?
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On July 14 2024 06:52 b0lt wrote:
Is there a group of death, dismemberment, and dissolution in acid?
There's only 2 groups of 8 players, so no. That being said, the lower half of Group B has my vote for the most consistent high-skill and evenly matched players
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I actually don't see serral as the favorite here. You can check his ladder account and he's been passed by Clem. Also some uncharacteristic losses recently. You can say it's just ladder but Serral doesn't meme or troll on ladder. I think it is a sign of things to come. herO or Classic have to be the tournament favorites.
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On July 14 2024 12:58 CicadaSC wrote:
I actually don't see serral as the favorite here. You can check his ladder account and he's been passed by Clem. Also some uncharacteristic losses recently. You can say it's just ladder but Serral doesn't meme or troll on ladder. I think it is a sign of things to come. herO or Classic have to be the tournament favorites.
Two Toss being the favorites when a Toss hasn't won a premier event in nearly 3 years is a bold prediction. Especially when a lot of those premiers had weaker T/Z lineups and stronger P lineups than this one and they still lost. I'm tempted to say it's impossible for Toss to win a premier with all top players present in the current game state but would love to be proven wrong. They've lost how many premiers in a row now though?
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I think Serral will win, but would love a protoss to finally win a big tournament  i wish for a top 4 of: clem (or maru), classic, hero and serral.
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On July 14 2024 12:58 CicadaSC wrote:
I actually don't see serral as the favorite here. You can check his ladder account and he's been passed by Clem. Also some uncharacteristic losses recently. You can say it's just ladder but Serral doesn't meme or troll on ladder. I think it is a sign of things to come. herO or Classic have to be the tournament favorites.
Hasn't Clem had higher MMR than Serral before? Ability to play your best in studio is more important than ladder skill, which Serral has shown very often and Clem has shown once.
Even if Serral doesn't troll on ladder that doesn't mean he's 100% all the time. His practice games with the likes of Oliveira (which we don't get to see) would be far more indicative of his level.
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On July 14 2024 12:58 CicadaSC wrote:
I actually don't see serral as the favorite here. You can check his ladder account and he's been passed by Clem. Also some uncharacteristic losses recently. You can say it's just ladder but Serral doesn't meme or troll on ladder. I think it is a sign of things to come. herO or Classic have to be the tournament favorites.
You worry about Serrals ladder-stats and then declare a player to be a favorite who has lost maps to trigger and Ryung recently and didn't even make it into GSL or StarsWar?
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When real money is on the line Protoss is never the favourite. They might win some online tournament with most of the greats, when zergs and terrans try to play straight up, but when it really matters, T and Z will bring out all of the overpowered bullshit builds that P isn't able to hold, because they can't be ready for everything.
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I didn’t think there was much debate that Reynor is probably the closest approximation to playing versus Serral that there is.. Dark is far too aggressive and sadly Rogue, DRG, SHIN just don’t have the speed required to be at a championship level these days. Solar plays more similar to the other Korean Zergs while Reynor is the second best EU Zerg and has a lot of similar tendencies to Serral. He just lacks a bit on decision making in those intense moments compared to Serral (he still does it better than almost anyone in the world except maybe Clem, Maru, MaxPax and Serral still).
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Northern Ireland26265 Posts
On July 16 2024 18:52 onPHYRE wrote:
I didn’t think there was much debate that Reynor is probably the closest approximation to playing versus Serral that there is.. Dark is far too aggressive and sadly Rogue, DRG, SHIN just don’t have the speed required to be at a championship level these days. Solar plays more similar to the other Korean Zergs while Reynor is the second best EU Zerg and has a lot of similar tendencies to Serral. He just lacks a bit on decision making in those intense moments compared to Serral (he still does it better than almost anyone in the world except maybe Clem, Maru, MaxPax and Serral still).
Yeah pretty much.
For me the key difference is Reynor is less safe with his greed, he’s just not quite as good at reading his opponents as Serral is.
I think the overall gameplan and styles and strengths are pretty similar, although there are ofc differences. But both play largely very high-eco styles that explode in the mid-late game, both are comfortable doing that and both of them are the two best Zergs mechanically too, which is partly why they’re so comfortable playing that way.
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Bot edit.
User was banned for this post.
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On July 13 2024 02:24 lokol4890 wrote:Show nested quote +On July 13 2024 02:12 Blitzball04 wrote:On July 12 2024 14:18 radracer wrote:On July 12 2024 13:47 Gantz023 wrote:
well....Koreans have enought time to prepare against Serral ...... OH WAIT !!!, prepare is only for GSL... im so stupid xD.
Good games are coming !!!! :D Aww it's ok little guy, you'll figure out the difference between a weekend tournament and a league one day! In all seriousness, you have to dedicate prep for an entire bracket vs a small number of matches, or even one. No one thinks there is "Zero prep" for a weekender, it's a different kind of prep. But somehow people post and actually think that the argument is zero prep vs concentrated prep, then make silly premises like this, which is baffling. Even when we have so many examples of how hard it is for non GSL regulars to perform in GSL. Lol GSL prep build is a myth. There has no prep build since 2017 every game is standard meta game. Once in a blue moon there might be a weird prep build. No one cares for GSL for years now, cause those Korean pros cares fighting for that 3K first place prize lol. The hardest tournaments to win are the ones with Serral Without caring they still keep kicking reynor out in the group stages, the same guy who's won plenty of tournaments that serral has attended
Maru who won plenty of GSLs was smashed in international tournaments where Serral attend.
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On July 16 2024 23:04 njleslu2024 wrote:Show nested quote +On July 13 2024 02:24 lokol4890 wrote:On July 13 2024 02:12 Blitzball04 wrote:On July 12 2024 14:18 radracer wrote:On July 12 2024 13:47 Gantz023 wrote:
well....Koreans have enought time to prepare against Serral ...... OH WAIT !!!, prepare is only for GSL... im so stupid xD.
Good games are coming !!!! :D Aww it's ok little guy, you'll figure out the difference between a weekend tournament and a league one day! In all seriousness, you have to dedicate prep for an entire bracket vs a small number of matches, or even one. No one thinks there is "Zero prep" for a weekender, it's a different kind of prep. But somehow people post and actually think that the argument is zero prep vs concentrated prep, then make silly premises like this, which is baffling. Even when we have so many examples of how hard it is for non GSL regulars to perform in GSL. Lol GSL prep build is a myth. There has no prep build since 2017 every game is standard meta game. Once in a blue moon there might be a weird prep build. No one cares for GSL for years now, cause those Korean pros cares fighting for that 3K first place prize lol. The hardest tournaments to win are the ones with Serral Without caring they still keep kicking reynor out in the group stages, the same guy who's won plenty of tournaments that serral has attended Maru who won plenty of GSLs was smashed in international tournaments where Serral attend.
Maru has won plenty of tournaments that serral has attended, just fyi, also in what universe is getting back to back second places at iem and dallas getting "smashed." Do you really not see a difference between maru losing in the grandfinals and reynor getting kicked out in groups?
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On July 17 2024 02:37 lokol4890 wrote:Show nested quote +On July 16 2024 23:04 njleslu2024 wrote:On July 13 2024 02:24 lokol4890 wrote:On July 13 2024 02:12 Blitzball04 wrote:On July 12 2024 14:18 radracer wrote:On July 12 2024 13:47 Gantz023 wrote:
well....Koreans have enought time to prepare against Serral ...... OH WAIT !!!, prepare is only for GSL... im so stupid xD.
Good games are coming !!!! :D Aww it's ok little guy, you'll figure out the difference between a weekend tournament and a league one day! In all seriousness, you have to dedicate prep for an entire bracket vs a small number of matches, or even one. No one thinks there is "Zero prep" for a weekender, it's a different kind of prep. But somehow people post and actually think that the argument is zero prep vs concentrated prep, then make silly premises like this, which is baffling. Even when we have so many examples of how hard it is for non GSL regulars to perform in GSL. Lol GSL prep build is a myth. There has no prep build since 2017 every game is standard meta game. Once in a blue moon there might be a weird prep build. No one cares for GSL for years now, cause those Korean pros cares fighting for that 3K first place prize lol. The hardest tournaments to win are the ones with Serral Without caring they still keep kicking reynor out in the group stages, the same guy who's won plenty of tournaments that serral has attended Maru who won plenty of GSLs was smashed in international tournaments where Serral attend. Maru has won plenty of tournaments that serral has attended, just fyi, also in what universe is getting back to back second places at iem and dallas getting "smashed." Do you really not see a difference between maru losing in the grandfinals and reynor getting kicked out in groups?
Maru had pretty poor performances in the past. Reynor participated...how often in GSL? Two times? Three? One of these times he was in a big slump (this year). People always pretend like Reynor played the last five years non-stop GSL and never managed to go beyond the group stage...
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EPT
