EPTEWC Starting Brackets Revealed - Page 5
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radracer
United States70 Posts
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WombaT
Northern Ireland25085 Posts
On July 18 2024 11:33 Balnazza wrote: Out of the 27 different GSL-winners according to Liquipedia (I excluded Serral, sOs and Trap since they didn't win Code S and Life because it's Life), 19 did win Premier-listed weekenders. Though I didn't particularly check what kind of weekenders, from WCS Global Finals over HomeStory Cups to RedBull Battlegrounds or even GSL vs. the World everything is an option. Therefore eight players (NesTea, Cure, GuMiho, FruitDealer, Jjkaji, RorO, Seed and Sniper) did not manage to win a "weekender". If you think SSL should be rated as Code S, then this list would need to include soO, I think every other SSL-winner also won a Code S at some point. In reverse, if my count is correct (just expect a +/-1 here), 63 players have won a "weekender" (or in general a non-Code S), without ever winning a Code S. Again, the definition what exactly a "Premier"-event is, is not consistent on Liquipedia, so all of this should be considered a rough estimation. But these are the raw stats: 19 GSL Champions have won a weekender Premier of any kind. 8 GSL Champions have not won a weekender Premier of any kind. 63 weekender Premier Champions of any kind have not won GSL. I'm not sure how many GSL Code S there have been exactly (since the Medal-Ranking on Liquipedia mushes together Code S, vs. the World and Super Tournament), I think I did count 47, though feel free to check on that. In comparison, there are 311 Premier events in total (so 264 events that aren't Code S). Just for the sake of easy numbers, lets pretend that there are five-times as many Weekenders than Code S. So just for fun, lets pretend that there are as many GSL Code S as there are Weekenders - and the distribution of champions in Code S stays the same as before. Meaning, if we take it times 5, 95 GSL Champs would have won a weekender, 40 would have not, while 63 Weekender Champs would not have won GSL. So yes, if this construct, that I can only assume breaks atleast a few rules of statistics, would hold, we could say that more players win weekenders and not Code S than vice versa. Though just to point out one flaw, this of course ignores the amount of actual wins players get and the fact that not all players who won Weekenders also participated in Code S (Serral being of course the most noteworthy, but there are others). So there are your numbers, maybe you can make better assumptions based on them than I did. ...also, Note to myself, great way to waste an hour... Thanks for doing the legwork sir! I feel this issue is immeasurably complicated by the evolution of the weekender over time to what we have now. At various junctures you simply didn’t get all of Korea’s, and at the time the world’s best players at most weekenders. Whereas nowadays you tend to get most of the world’s best at most events. Plus of course the development of foreignland to also be contributing some of the world’s absolute best, some of whom don’t regularly play Code S complicates it yet further haha | ||
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njleslu2024
57 Posts
On July 18 2024 07:08 radracer wrote: You're not doing a very good job of that- you'd fail a debate 100 class the way you're going about it. Saying "Maru got SMASHED" in tournaments where he gets 2nd place is hyperbolic and hurts your argument. Maru getting #1 in GSL and #2 in big weekenders is less of a variance than Reynor getting 0-4'ed in GSL and doing whatever 5-8th in weekenders. I'd be interested in this exercise: How many weekender champs have never won a GSL. (INCLUDING Koreans, since there aren't enough foreign entrants to GSL) vs how many GSL champs have won weekenders. I'm not going to do the work/research though, lol. My guess is advantage goes to more GSL champs have also been weekender champs. Am I in a debating competition? you pick up fight with me regarding “ohh how dare you not including some key words and downplayed Maru’s achievement by mistake?” So funny! And your Math teacher will be mad since you simply ignored the fact that GSL is the only choice to win in one set and “all weekenders” contains far more tournaments. The sample sizes are not even comparable so even if more people won weekenders but not GSL than the number who won GSL but not weekenders, doesn’t give you conclusion of GSL is harder, understand? Also if you need example your idle Maru is just a perfect one, who never won global final or IEM Katowice (yes they are weekenders) but won a bunch of GSL | ||
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radracer
United States70 Posts
Am I in a debating competition? you pick up fight with me regarding “ohh how dare you not including some key words and downplayed Maru’s achievement by mistake?” So funny! And your Math teacher will be mad since you simply ignored the fact that GSL is the only choice to win in one set and “all weekenders” contains far more tournaments. The sample sizes are not even comparable so even if more people won weekenders but not GSL than the number who won GSL but not weekenders, doesn’t give you conclusion of GSL is harder, understand? Also if you need example your idle Maru is just a perfect one, who never won global final or IEM Katowice (yes they are weekenders) but won a bunch of GSL I didn't pick any fight nor did I originally bring up the argument, that was someone else. But I observed this, and you're in a discussion, so yeah. If you want to have a good one, that's a suggestion. It seems like you're taking it super personally, and are invested rather than just enjoying the discussion. "My idle Maru" well He's not my idol or even my favorite player, I hate Terran in SC1, lol. I haven't had a favorite player for a while now, since probably HuK. Still a SC fan first and foremost, & always will be. Anyways clearly this is your assumption due to the aforementioned personal biases. Not everything is a Maru vs Serral Debate. That aside, Maru has won weekenders, high level / premiere ones at that. Regardless of the the "world championship" label the tournaments are of the same quality players. Would be sick to see if Serral could win a GSL even in the weaker korean scene due to lack of interest, but who knows if he will ever have that desire. <edited out some flaming/trash talk, not really productive> | ||
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Harris1st
Germany6906 Posts
On July 18 2024 07:08 radracer wrote: You're not doing a very good job of that- you'd fail a debate 100 class the way you're going about it. Saying "Maru got SMASHED" in tournaments where he gets 2nd place is hyperbolic and hurts your argument. Maru getting #1 in GSL and #2 in big weekenders is less of a variance than Reynor getting 0-4'ed in GSL and doing whatever 5-8th in weekenders. I'd be interested in this exercise: How many weekender champs have never won a GSL. (INCLUDING Koreans, since there aren't enough foreign entrants to GSL) vs how many GSL champs have won weekenders. I'm not going to do the work/research though, lol. My guess is advantage goes to more GSL champs have also been weekender champs. With Serral winning like half of the weekenders and not participating in GSL, this exercise is doomed to fail  On July 17 2024 15:43 WombaT wrote: I think Serral is in a different category entirely and could conceivably go and Royal Road it, he’s just so resilient and consistent. . He'd do it with a ridiculous mapscore while at it. | ||
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jodljodl
158 Posts
"EWC starting brackets revealed" Holy smokes. That looks like a big fat chunk of awesome sc2. gonna be an interesting tournament for certain. hooray for sc2. hooray for us. Now back on topic, where was I? ah right. F*** everybody who cannot see the truth for what it is that serral is the GOAT. OBVIOUSLY. Them fools talk about maru when serral is b****slapping him every chance he gets. Also, f*** everyone who even dares to think serral is the GOAT. yea, sure, he's pretty good. but he didn't even win 1 singular GSL. not 1. ZERO. Didn't even attend one. But if you look at these stats and assume this and that and also stand upside down one can clearly see that my proof that tournament xyz and tournament types k,l and m are about as hard as gsl. if not even harder. and since grubby played orc back in the day and ud was super underpowered all his tournament wins don't really matter because fov was clearly the superior player. and fov liked his mum's food so much. that's why he's a bit chubby, he said. or was it MC? anyway, since MC's chubbyness is way cuter than fovs according to aligulac his mum is the better cook. obviously. last but not least. every cs iteration is way harder than bw or sc2 because you have to coordinate with your teammates. a skill which is way harder to learn than anything else in the world as recent studies have shown. | ||
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sc2turtlepants
34 Posts
On July 18 2024 21:08 jodljodl wrote: let's make every thread about who's better, koreans or foreigners, who's the GOAT, maru or serral, what's more tasty, pasta or noodles, shall we? "EWC starting brackets revealed" Holy smokes. That looks like a big fat chunk of awesome sc2. gonna be an interesting tournament for certain. hooray for sc2. hooray for us. Now back on topic, where was I? ah right. F*** everybody who cannot see the truth for what it is that serral is the GOAT. OBVIOUSLY. Them fools talk about maru when serral is b****slapping him every chance he gets. Also, f*** everyone who even dares to think serral is the GOAT. yea, sure, he's pretty good. but he didn't even win 1 singular GSL. not 1. ZERO. Didn't even attend one. But if you look at these stats and assume this and that and also stand upside down one can clearly see that my proof that tournament xyz and tournament types k,l and m are about as hard as gsl. if not even harder. and since grubby played orc back in the day and ud was super underpowered all his tournament wins don't really matter because fov was clearly the superior player. and fov liked his mum's food so much. that's why he's a bit chubby, he said. or was it MC? anyway, since MC's chubbyness is way cuter than fovs according to aligulac his mum is the better cook. obviously. last but not least. every cs iteration is way harder than bw or sc2 because you have to coordinate with your teammates. a skill which is way harder to learn than anything else in the world as recent studies have shown. I appreciate you. | ||
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Gantz023
31 Posts
On July 18 2024 07:08 radracer wrote: You're not doing a very good job of that- you'd fail a debate 100 class the way you're going about it. Saying "Maru got SMASHED" in tournaments where he gets 2nd place is hyperbolic and hurts your argument. Maru getting #1 in GSL and #2 in big weekenders is less of a variance than Reynor getting 0-4'ed in GSL and doing whatever 5-8th in weekenders. I'd be interested in this exercise: How many weekender champs have never won a GSL. (INCLUDING Koreans, since there aren't enough foreign entrants to GSL) vs how many GSL champs have won weekenders. I'm not going to do the work/research though, lol. My guess is advantage goes to more GSL champs have also been weekender champs. I can tell you why Maru has won weekend tournaments and Serral has not won a GSL. 1.- Going on a weekend is not a big sacrifice to earn 30,000 dollars. 2.- go live for 2 months in a completely different country, far from your family, a language that you could not understand in 2 months of practice, where the cost of living is extremely expensive for a prize of 3,000 dollars for winning the entire event xd. Anyone who can do the math realizes why Koreans go out to play on the weekends and "foreigners" don't go in large numbers to compete in GSL. Can you imagine if the GSL were played in Europe? same prize money, same preparation times, how many Koreans would we see traveling???? I assure you... none... because IT IS NOT PROFITABLE. We, as fans, ... would love to see Serral Go... but for him it means nothing at all... only financial losses and loss of valuable time with his family and his people. It is a healthy, mature and prudent decision. | ||
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JJH777
United States4403 Posts
On July 19 2024 11:27 Gantz023 wrote: I can tell you why Maru has won weekend tournaments and Serral has not won a GSL. 1.- Going on a weekend is not a big sacrifice to earn 30,000 dollars. 2.- go live for 2 months in a completely different country, far from your family, a language that you could not understand in 2 months of practice, where the cost of living is extremely expensive for a prize of 3,000 dollars for winning the entire event xd. Anyone who can do the math realizes why Koreans go out to play on the weekends and "foreigners" don't go in large numbers to compete in GSL. Can you imagine if the GSL were played in Europe? same prize money, same preparation times, how many Koreans would we see traveling???? I assure you... none... because IT IS NOT PROFITABLE. We, as fans, ... would love to see Serral Go... but for him it means nothing at all... only financial losses and loss of valuable time with his family and his people. It is a healthy, mature and prudent decision. Most weekend tournaments don't pay 30k. GSL used to pay a lot more. It paid the most besides world championships and WESG by a decent margin actually. GSL being played in Europe is pretty much what happened with the WCS region split from ~2013-~2016 before the hard region lock was implemented and a ton of Koreans went to EU and NA. So many that they had to implement hard region lock because the soft lock of them having to be on the continent for their matches and not being allowed to play in GSL wasn't strict enough. | ||
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radracer
United States70 Posts
On July 19 2024 11:27 Gantz023 wrote: I can tell you why Maru has won weekend tournaments and Serral has not won a GSL. 1.- Going on a weekend is not a big sacrifice to earn 30,000 dollars. 2.- go live for 2 months in a completely different country, far from your family, a language that you could not understand in 2 months of practice, where the cost of living is extremely expensive for a prize of 3,000 dollars for winning the entire event xd. Anyone who can do the math realizes why Koreans go out to play on the weekends and "foreigners" don't go in large numbers to compete in GSL. Can you imagine if the GSL were played in Europe? same prize money, same preparation times, how many Koreans would we see traveling???? I assure you... none... because IT IS NOT PROFITABLE. We, as fans, ... would love to see Serral Go... but for him it means nothing at all... only financial losses and loss of valuable time with his family and his people. It is a healthy, mature and prudent decision. This argument has been debunked so many times, someone already beat me to it. But I'd also like to add that competitors go play in the Olympics for no pay, it's a desire to compete. Why'd Reynor go? And why have so many other foreigners gone in the past? Coming up for real world excuses for the guy is so silly and fanboy-ish. | ||
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radracer
United States70 Posts
On July 18 2024 20:27 Harris1st wrote: With Serral winning like half of the weekenders and not participating in GSL, this exercise is doomed to fail He'd do it with a ridiculous mapscore while at it. It looks like most GSL champs have won weekenders, but not vice versa. Pretty good exercise to me. Also, Serral hasn't won half the weekenders in SC2, maybe he has since you've been watching? IDK Chances Serral royal rotors it will get better the longer he delays going to GSL, but there's also a good chance he 0-4's out like Reynor, no one knows. So far his competitive drive hasn't taken him to Korea. | ||
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Harris1st
Germany6906 Posts
On July 19 2024 16:58 radracer wrote: It looks like most GSL champs have won weekenders, but not vice versa. Pretty good exercise to me. Also, Serral hasn't won half the weekenders in SC2, maybe he has since you've been watching? IDK Chances Serral royal rotors it will get better the longer he delays going to GSL, but there's also a good chance he 0-4's out like Reynor, no one knows. So far his competitive drive hasn't taken him to Korea. Since his uprising in 2018 I quickly counted 62 participations, 26 wins. 42% Also the GSL / Weekenders thing has been chewed so many times. Obviously flying out somewhere for a week is easier than uprooting your whole life for 3 month+ "there's also a good chance he 0-4's out" Whaaat? I'm not sure what you've been smoking... There is a very very very slim chance he's out 0-4. Like less than 1% While there is at least a 20%+ chance he would be royal roading | ||
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WombaT
Northern Ireland25085 Posts
On July 19 2024 16:55 radracer wrote: This argument has been debunked so many times, someone already beat me to it. But I'd also like to add that competitors go play in the Olympics for no pay, it's a desire to compete. Why'd Reynor go? And why have so many other foreigners gone in the past? Coming up for real world excuses for the guy is so silly and fanboy-ish. The Olympics is the pinnacle of many a sport, and you’re making absolute bank in sponsorship and commercials if you take home a gold in many a country. While it’s ostensibly amateur, you can absolutely make bank from triumphing. Nobody in the UK regularly would follow the regular heptathlon circuit, but Jessica Ennis wins a gold medal and hey she’s the face of Muller yoghurts for half a decade, is doing the chat shows etc. Football most notably, which is an under-23s tournament with a few overaged players allowed and golf and tennis, would be some exceptions. People do go mostly for glory there, but in the latter two it’s also a chance to compete under your nation’s banner in sports that are largely very individual affairs. If you go to an Olympics as part of a big nation, you’ll be in a camp with possibly hundreds of your own nationality. Many choose to partake in this and really soak up the atmosphere and camaraderie of the event. But, you don’t have to. Indeed most events don’t stretch over even a week. If you’re a pro cyclist recovering from the Tour de France and competing in the Olympic Road Race or Time Trials, those events are one-shots that last a day. You can pop over for a few days, practice the route and do the event and be done in a few days. While there are some similarities between the Olympics and Serral’s current situation, there are also a fair few pretty big differences. | ||
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WombaT
Northern Ireland25085 Posts
On July 19 2024 18:43 Harris1st wrote: Since his uprising in 2018 I quickly counted 62 participations, 26 wins. 42% Also the GSL / Weekenders thing has been chewed so many times. Obviously flying out somewhere for a week is easier than uprooting your whole life for 3 month+ "there's also a good chance he 0-4's out" Whaaat? I'm not sure what you've been smoking... There is a very very very slim chance he's out 0-4. Like less than 1% While there is at least a 20%+ chance he would be royal roading I guess we’ve few tournaments outside the GSL that use that format, so can’t really assess a direct comparison. When is the last time Serral even went out at the group stage, or first stage of a tournament possible for him to exit? Like I’ve scoured his record a few times for various stats, haven’t fully deep-dived but even from that bit of browsing I think it’s likely to be pre-2018 Him going 0-4 feels almost unfathomably unlikely. For him to exit at the group stage wouldn’t be impossible, but you’d probably need a ridiculously stacked group and even then he’s probably still winning at least one match, never mind a single set. | ||
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rwala
282 Posts
On July 19 2024 23:08 WombaT wrote: I guess we’ve few tournaments outside the GSL that use that format, so can’t really assess a direct comparison. When is the last time Serral even went out at the group stage, or first stage of a tournament possible for him to exit? Like I’ve scoured his record a few times for various stats, haven’t fully deep-dived but even from that bit of browsing I think it’s likely to be pre-2018 Him going 0-4 feels almost unfathomably unlikely. For him to exit at the group stage wouldn’t be impossible, but you’d probably need a ridiculously stacked group and even then he’s probably still winning at least one match, never mind a single set. Let's talk post-2018 then. Serral didn't even make the group stages of the season finals for DH Summer in 2021 because he dropped out too early in the European regional, and he's not even the most dominant player in his own region when it comes to regional titles (that goes to Clem I'm pretty sure, and I don't know that he's even ahead of Reynor, I'm too lazy to check). I don't mean this as a knock against Serral, he's the best player in the world right now and has been for some time. It's just that the level of consistency in his dominance that some of his fans attribute to him is simply not supported by his performances in the European regionals. (Miz in his article on Serral also pointed out some other periods of streakiness.) This is even more clear when you consider that these regionals have often had group stages with 8-player groups featuring players like Kas, MilkiCow, Bly, etc., all but auto-advancing players like Serral, Clem, Reynor, Heromarine, etc to a double-elimination bracket that itself includes players like DnS, Skillous, Lambo, Elazer, etc. The thing about GSL is that even in 2024 with the dramatically reduced player pool I'd argue that it's harder to qualify for the group stages in GSL than it is to advance through the earlier parts of the euro regional playoff bracket. Heck, pretty sure Bunny and Classic didn't manage to even get into Code S last season. I recall a number of Code S tournaments in that last few years where top 10 players couldn't even qualify. And then the group stages can just be so brutal. The Bo3 series are just so high variance because almost anyone in GSL can win 2 games against anyone else. Thus Rogue, Maru, Dark, Hero, Reynor, etc. dropping out in the group stages from time to time. Don't get me wrong. Serral could totally royal road the GSL. And also he could totally drop out in the group stages if he got an unlucky group draw and had a bad day. Anyone who claims otherwise is peddling propoganda. | ||
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onPHYRE
Bulgaria908 Posts
On July 19 2024 16:58 radracer wrote: It looks like most GSL champs have won weekenders, but not vice versa. Pretty good exercise to me. Also, Serral hasn't won half the weekenders in SC2, maybe he has since you've been watching? IDK Chances Serral royal rotors it will get better the longer he delays going to GSL, but there's also a good chance he 0-4's out like Reynor, no one knows. So far his competitive drive hasn't taken him to Korea. This has to be the funniest comment in the thread LOL. | ||
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Bennito_bh
15 Posts
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Kreuger
Sweden708 Posts
Im sure it will mostly be the same, but still. Only ones that im sure of atm is rotterdam and artosis | ||
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Blitzball04
191 Posts
On July 19 2024 11:27 Gantz023 wrote: I can tell you why Maru has won weekend tournaments and Serral has not won a GSL. 1.- Going on a weekend is not a big sacrifice to earn 30,000 dollars. 2.- go live for 2 months in a completely different country, far from your family, a language that you could not understand in 2 months of practice, where the cost of living is extremely expensive for a prize of 3,000 dollars for winning the entire event xd. Anyone who can do the math realizes why Koreans go out to play on the weekends and "foreigners" don't go in large numbers to compete in GSL. Can you imagine if the GSL were played in Europe? same prize money, same preparation times, how many Koreans would we see traveling???? I assure you... none... because IT IS NOT PROFITABLE. We, as fans, ... would love to see Serral Go... but for him it means nothing at all... only financial losses and loss of valuable time with his family and his people. It is a healthy, mature and prudent decision. Serral already has won 2 GSL with 100% win rate Whereas Maru and some of the Koreans indeed has won weekender but after how many tries? Safe to assume less than 25% win rate. Not that impressive. I know the Koreans fanboys like to clown reynor for choking in the GSL. as a sort of flex or meme. But it’s not that much as a flex as they think it is. What’s Maru win rate attending weekender? Around 10%. His GSL win rate? Around 20%. Quite good if compare to his Korean peers. But quite weak when compare to Serral win rate. There are levels to this | ||
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lokol4890
109 Posts
On August 07 2024 22:57 Blitzball04 wrote: Serral already has won 2 GSL with 100% win rate Whereas Maru and some of the Koreans indeed has won weekender but after how many tries? Safe to assume less than 25% win rate. Not that impressive. I know the Koreans fanboys like to clown reynor for choking in the GSL. as a sort of flex or meme. But it’s not that much as a flex as they think it is. What’s Maru win rate attending weekender? Around 10%. His GSL win rate? Around 20%. Quite good if compare to his Korean peers. But quite weak when compare to Serral win rate. There are levels to this There are also levels between glorified showmatches (gsl v. the world) and gsl proper, yet here we are... | ||
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