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On July 17 2024 04:13 Balnazza wrote:Show nested quote +On July 17 2024 02:37 lokol4890 wrote:On July 16 2024 23:04 njleslu2024 wrote:On July 13 2024 02:24 lokol4890 wrote:On July 13 2024 02:12 Blitzball04 wrote:On July 12 2024 14:18 radracer wrote:On July 12 2024 13:47 Gantz023 wrote:
well....Koreans have enought time to prepare against Serral ...... OH WAIT !!!, prepare is only for GSL... im so stupid xD.
Good games are coming !!!! :D Aww it's ok little guy, you'll figure out the difference between a weekend tournament and a league one day! In all seriousness, you have to dedicate prep for an entire bracket vs a small number of matches, or even one. No one thinks there is "Zero prep" for a weekender, it's a different kind of prep. But somehow people post and actually think that the argument is zero prep vs concentrated prep, then make silly premises like this, which is baffling. Even when we have so many examples of how hard it is for non GSL regulars to perform in GSL. Lol GSL prep build is a myth. There has no prep build since 2017 every game is standard meta game. Once in a blue moon there might be a weird prep build. No one cares for GSL for years now, cause those Korean pros cares fighting for that 3K first place prize lol. The hardest tournaments to win are the ones with Serral Without caring they still keep kicking reynor out in the group stages, the same guy who's won plenty of tournaments that serral has attended Maru who won plenty of GSLs was smashed in international tournaments where Serral attend. Maru has won plenty of tournaments that serral has attended, just fyi, also in what universe is getting back to back second places at iem and dallas getting "smashed." Do you really not see a difference between maru losing in the grandfinals and reynor getting kicked out in groups? Maru had pretty poor performances in the past. Reynor participated...how often in GSL? Two times? Three? One of these times he was in a big slump (this year). People always pretend like Reynor played the last five years non-stop GSL and never managed to go beyond the group stage...
The slump is debatable because right before he was kicked out he was confident in his skill and by and large the community members believed he was out of the slump. No one is pretending he played nonstop. He played three times and in two he lost in groups, go figure.
But regardless, this was always about how gsl, even to this day, is still tough enough that reynor, who has won a bunch of shit, has struggled with it. It doesn't matter how many times he participates in gsl. If it were that easy to walk over the gsl players in korea, he would've done it, slump or no slump.
Maru having bad performances in the past means little. He still has won plenty of tournaments where serral attended (i.e., my response to the person who claims he gets destroyed when he plays international events).
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On July 17 2024 06:23 lokol4890 wrote:Show nested quote +On July 17 2024 04:13 Balnazza wrote:On July 17 2024 02:37 lokol4890 wrote:On July 16 2024 23:04 njleslu2024 wrote:On July 13 2024 02:24 lokol4890 wrote:On July 13 2024 02:12 Blitzball04 wrote:On July 12 2024 14:18 radracer wrote:On July 12 2024 13:47 Gantz023 wrote:
well....Koreans have enought time to prepare against Serral ...... OH WAIT !!!, prepare is only for GSL... im so stupid xD.
Good games are coming !!!! :D Aww it's ok little guy, you'll figure out the difference between a weekend tournament and a league one day! In all seriousness, you have to dedicate prep for an entire bracket vs a small number of matches, or even one. No one thinks there is "Zero prep" for a weekender, it's a different kind of prep. But somehow people post and actually think that the argument is zero prep vs concentrated prep, then make silly premises like this, which is baffling. Even when we have so many examples of how hard it is for non GSL regulars to perform in GSL. Lol GSL prep build is a myth. There has no prep build since 2017 every game is standard meta game. Once in a blue moon there might be a weird prep build. No one cares for GSL for years now, cause those Korean pros cares fighting for that 3K first place prize lol. The hardest tournaments to win are the ones with Serral Without caring they still keep kicking reynor out in the group stages, the same guy who's won plenty of tournaments that serral has attended Maru who won plenty of GSLs was smashed in international tournaments where Serral attend. Maru has won plenty of tournaments that serral has attended, just fyi, also in what universe is getting back to back second places at iem and dallas getting "smashed." Do you really not see a difference between maru losing in the grandfinals and reynor getting kicked out in groups? Maru had pretty poor performances in the past. Reynor participated...how often in GSL? Two times? Three? One of these times he was in a big slump (this year). People always pretend like Reynor played the last five years non-stop GSL and never managed to go beyond the group stage... The slump is debatable because right before he was kicked out he was confident in his skill and by and large the community members believed he was out of the slump. No one is pretending he played nonstop. He played three times and in two he lost in groups, go figure. But regardless, this was always about how gsl, even to this day, is still tough enough that reynor, who has won a bunch of shit, has struggled with it. It doesn't matter how many times he participates in gsl. If it were that easy to walk over the gsl players in korea, he would've done it, slump or no slump. Maru having bad performances in the past means little. He still has won plenty of tournaments where serral attended (i.e., my response to the person who claims he gets destroyed when he plays international events).
Technically Reynor performed worse in IEM Katowice 2024 than in GSL (Top 20 vs. Top 16). And no, no one said his slump was over. GSL was literally the tournament for him to prove that it was.
And no, this wasn't about "GSL is harder because of the players", but "GSL is harder because of the format". But the format had little to do with Reynors performance this year. And honestly, probably not much to do with his former failures aswell.
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You could argue it's both or one or the other. This topic is beaten to death but until a foreigner actually wins a star league it'll always be a good talking point. Only biased fanboys will dismiss the premise that SLs are a unique and tough beast by their own right. (I don't suggest discussing the topic with anyone like that)
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On July 17 2024 06:40 Balnazza wrote:Show nested quote +On July 17 2024 06:23 lokol4890 wrote:On July 17 2024 04:13 Balnazza wrote:On July 17 2024 02:37 lokol4890 wrote:On July 16 2024 23:04 njleslu2024 wrote:On July 13 2024 02:24 lokol4890 wrote:On July 13 2024 02:12 Blitzball04 wrote:On July 12 2024 14:18 radracer wrote:On July 12 2024 13:47 Gantz023 wrote:
well....Koreans have enought time to prepare against Serral ...... OH WAIT !!!, prepare is only for GSL... im so stupid xD.
Good games are coming !!!! :D Aww it's ok little guy, you'll figure out the difference between a weekend tournament and a league one day! In all seriousness, you have to dedicate prep for an entire bracket vs a small number of matches, or even one. No one thinks there is "Zero prep" for a weekender, it's a different kind of prep. But somehow people post and actually think that the argument is zero prep vs concentrated prep, then make silly premises like this, which is baffling. Even when we have so many examples of how hard it is for non GSL regulars to perform in GSL. Lol GSL prep build is a myth. There has no prep build since 2017 every game is standard meta game. Once in a blue moon there might be a weird prep build. No one cares for GSL for years now, cause those Korean pros cares fighting for that 3K first place prize lol. The hardest tournaments to win are the ones with Serral Without caring they still keep kicking reynor out in the group stages, the same guy who's won plenty of tournaments that serral has attended Maru who won plenty of GSLs was smashed in international tournaments where Serral attend. Maru has won plenty of tournaments that serral has attended, just fyi, also in what universe is getting back to back second places at iem and dallas getting "smashed." Do you really not see a difference between maru losing in the grandfinals and reynor getting kicked out in groups? Maru had pretty poor performances in the past. Reynor participated...how often in GSL? Two times? Three? One of these times he was in a big slump (this year). People always pretend like Reynor played the last five years non-stop GSL and never managed to go beyond the group stage... The slump is debatable because right before he was kicked out he was confident in his skill and by and large the community members believed he was out of the slump. No one is pretending he played nonstop. He played three times and in two he lost in groups, go figure. But regardless, this was always about how gsl, even to this day, is still tough enough that reynor, who has won a bunch of shit, has struggled with it. It doesn't matter how many times he participates in gsl. If it were that easy to walk over the gsl players in korea, he would've done it, slump or no slump. Maru having bad performances in the past means little. He still has won plenty of tournaments where serral attended (i.e., my response to the person who claims he gets destroyed when he plays international events). Technically Reynor performed worse in IEM Katowice 2024 than in GSL (Top 20 vs. Top 16). And no, no one said his slump was over. GSL was literally the tournament for him to prove that it was. And no, this wasn't about "GSL is harder because of the players", but "GSL is harder because of the format". But the format had little to do with Reynors performance this year. And honestly, probably not much to do with his former failures aswell.
Reynor fall in IEM was more because of the group he was in, rather than his skill. He would have easily made it out of any other group imo. We all knew there was a fairly good chance for him to not advance back then. But most people expected Reynor to make a deep run in GSL, at least Ro8 if not Ro4/Final. He made Ro8 in ESL Spring meaning hes not that much in a slump. Its pretty well-known that Reynor HATES playing against a certain TvZ style, originated from Maru, and he tends to play worse against such style overall.
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On July 17 2024 12:21 tigera6 wrote:Show nested quote +On July 17 2024 06:40 Balnazza wrote:On July 17 2024 06:23 lokol4890 wrote:On July 17 2024 04:13 Balnazza wrote:On July 17 2024 02:37 lokol4890 wrote:On July 16 2024 23:04 njleslu2024 wrote:On July 13 2024 02:24 lokol4890 wrote:On July 13 2024 02:12 Blitzball04 wrote:On July 12 2024 14:18 radracer wrote:On July 12 2024 13:47 Gantz023 wrote:
well....Koreans have enought time to prepare against Serral ...... OH WAIT !!!, prepare is only for GSL... im so stupid xD.
Good games are coming !!!! :D Aww it's ok little guy, you'll figure out the difference between a weekend tournament and a league one day! In all seriousness, you have to dedicate prep for an entire bracket vs a small number of matches, or even one. No one thinks there is "Zero prep" for a weekender, it's a different kind of prep. But somehow people post and actually think that the argument is zero prep vs concentrated prep, then make silly premises like this, which is baffling. Even when we have so many examples of how hard it is for non GSL regulars to perform in GSL. Lol GSL prep build is a myth. There has no prep build since 2017 every game is standard meta game. Once in a blue moon there might be a weird prep build. No one cares for GSL for years now, cause those Korean pros cares fighting for that 3K first place prize lol. The hardest tournaments to win are the ones with Serral Without caring they still keep kicking reynor out in the group stages, the same guy who's won plenty of tournaments that serral has attended Maru who won plenty of GSLs was smashed in international tournaments where Serral attend. Maru has won plenty of tournaments that serral has attended, just fyi, also in what universe is getting back to back second places at iem and dallas getting "smashed." Do you really not see a difference between maru losing in the grandfinals and reynor getting kicked out in groups? Maru had pretty poor performances in the past. Reynor participated...how often in GSL? Two times? Three? One of these times he was in a big slump (this year). People always pretend like Reynor played the last five years non-stop GSL and never managed to go beyond the group stage... The slump is debatable because right before he was kicked out he was confident in his skill and by and large the community members believed he was out of the slump. No one is pretending he played nonstop. He played three times and in two he lost in groups, go figure. But regardless, this was always about how gsl, even to this day, is still tough enough that reynor, who has won a bunch of shit, has struggled with it. It doesn't matter how many times he participates in gsl. If it were that easy to walk over the gsl players in korea, he would've done it, slump or no slump. Maru having bad performances in the past means little. He still has won plenty of tournaments where serral attended (i.e., my response to the person who claims he gets destroyed when he plays international events). Technically Reynor performed worse in IEM Katowice 2024 than in GSL (Top 20 vs. Top 16). And no, no one said his slump was over. GSL was literally the tournament for him to prove that it was. And no, this wasn't about "GSL is harder because of the players", but "GSL is harder because of the format". But the format had little to do with Reynors performance this year. And honestly, probably not much to do with his former failures aswell. Reynor fall in IEM was more because of the group he was in, rather than his skill. He would have easily made it out of any other group imo. We all knew there was a fairly good chance for him to not advance back then. But most people expected Reynor to make a deep run in GSL, at least Ro8 if not Ro4/Final. He made Ro8 in ESL Spring meaning hes not that much in a slump. Its pretty well-known that Reynor HATES playing against a certain TvZ style, originated from Maru, and he tends to play worse against such style overall.
I think it is pretty obvious that Reynor had some problems at the beginning of the year, he said so himself. His review on Katowice didn't sound like "well, it was a tough group". The matches themselves also didn't reflect that. Of course he wasn't "dropping out of the Top 50" slumping, but he also wasn't even close to championship-form - which is something Reynor is definetly capable of.
Put together his bad Katowice, bad GSL and not qualifying for StarsWars (lost against Skillous) and you have a pretty clear stretch of time that can be summed up as "slump". That atleast feels much more plausible than "GSL format is so much harder that a World-Class player at his best can't win a single map".
ESL Spring might be a bit of a turning point, feels like his WTL-results are also better since then. Probably to be in premium shape for EWC in true Reynor-fashion.
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That and a ton more pressure on him since he wants to prove he can do well at GSL- so he just choked it up despite him saying he felt super good and was practicing a bunch. you have to be in top form to win GSL + have the mental wherewithal if you want to win the historically greatest tournament the game has ever known. If you care about it, like Reynor does, it's that much added pressure. Which I think would be fair to say, anyone who enters that tournament, especially foreigners, will have that level of care to win, despite what internet people say.
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Northern Ireland25085 Posts
On July 17 2024 13:19 radracer wrote:
That and a ton more pressure on him since he wants to prove he can do well at GSL- so he just choked it up despite him saying he felt super good and was practicing a bunch. you have to be in top form to win GSL + have the mental wherewithal if you want to win the historically greatest tournament the game has ever known. If you care about it, like Reynor does, it's that much added pressure. Which I think would be fair to say, anyone who enters that tournament, especially foreigners, will have that level of care to win, despite what internet people say.
In the interest of consistency Reynor made it out of a Ro32 before he even made his WCS debut. At a time where many people say the scene was more competitive.
Slumping aside I don’t think many would argue that that incarnation of Reynor was a better player, or that GSL is harder in 2024.
We all have bad days at the office, perhaps Reynor had that fearlessness of youth first time around, and ‘cared too much’ this time and couldn’t perform.
Or, compared to other times in the past there’s less of a foreigner presence, and Reynor just had a rougher time lifestyle wise which impacted him.
Or he felt good and just had an off-day, or indeed he’s playing against some bloody good players too! Or a combination in whatever ratio of all these factors.
Reynor can win a GSL talent wise, but even the best version of Reynor has been a rather streaky player, and we’ve seen that for much of this year. GSL has been the rule, not the exception.
Along with Clem, if they committed and there were another say, 6 seasons of GSL, they both competed every time I think one of the two of them takes one. It’s a very hard tournament to win, but it’s not the mythical tournament that some make out that completely flips the scales in terms of innate StarCraft ability. Especially with one fewer stage to navigate, and the combined Ro4/finals at least reducing some of the preparation element which was the thing that differentiated its format and did add a unique test to players.
Sadly for us fans, I can’t see GSL going quite that long, or foreigners really giving it a proper crack, but we can hope!
I think Serral is in a different category entirely and could conceivably go and Royal Road it, he’s just so resilient and consistent. Equally if he didn’t, I wouldn’t be blown away, as I said, it’s hard. But it’s hard to see him not at least getting out of groups. Another thing I hope to see one day but I’m certainly not holding my breath.
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On July 17 2024 15:43 WombaT wrote:Show nested quote +On July 17 2024 13:19 radracer wrote:
That and a ton more pressure on him since he wants to prove he can do well at GSL- so he just choked it up despite him saying he felt super good and was practicing a bunch. you have to be in top form to win GSL + have the mental wherewithal if you want to win the historically greatest tournament the game has ever known. If you care about it, like Reynor does, it's that much added pressure. Which I think would be fair to say, anyone who enters that tournament, especially foreigners, will have that level of care to win, despite what internet people say. In the interest of consistency Reynor made it out of a Ro32 before he even made his WCS debut. At a time where many people say the scene was more competitive. Slumping aside I don’t think many would argue that that incarnation of Reynor was a better player, or that GSL is harder in 2024. We all have bad days at the office, perhaps Reynor had that fearlessness of youth first time around, and ‘cared too much’ this time and couldn’t perform.
Also worth saying that the other GSL competitors in 2018 weren't familiar with him playstyle. He hadn't even played in WCS events at that point. Now when he competes he has Bunny preparing snipe builds and Gumiho practicing an entire playstyle that he's especially bad against.
If I remember right, in 2018 he beat Ryung 2-0, went 2-2 against Classic to advance, beat Impact in the ro16, then lost to Maru and Neeb. I don't want to say bracket luck because getting out of a GSL group on your first attempt is insane, but Ryung and Impact are realistically easier opponents than who he faced in the more recent seasons.
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On July 17 2024 02:37 lokol4890 wrote:Show nested quote +On July 16 2024 23:04 njleslu2024 wrote:On July 13 2024 02:24 lokol4890 wrote:On July 13 2024 02:12 Blitzball04 wrote:On July 12 2024 14:18 radracer wrote:On July 12 2024 13:47 Gantz023 wrote:
well....Koreans have enought time to prepare against Serral ...... OH WAIT !!!, prepare is only for GSL... im so stupid xD.
Good games are coming !!!! :D Aww it's ok little guy, you'll figure out the difference between a weekend tournament and a league one day! In all seriousness, you have to dedicate prep for an entire bracket vs a small number of matches, or even one. No one thinks there is "Zero prep" for a weekender, it's a different kind of prep. But somehow people post and actually think that the argument is zero prep vs concentrated prep, then make silly premises like this, which is baffling. Even when we have so many examples of how hard it is for non GSL regulars to perform in GSL. Lol GSL prep build is a myth. There has no prep build since 2017 every game is standard meta game. Once in a blue moon there might be a weird prep build. No one cares for GSL for years now, cause those Korean pros cares fighting for that 3K first place prize lol. The hardest tournaments to win are the ones with Serral Without caring they still keep kicking reynor out in the group stages, the same guy who's won plenty of tournaments that serral has attended Maru who won plenty of GSLs was smashed in international tournaments where Serral attend. Maru has won plenty of tournaments that serral has attended, just fyi, also in what universe is getting back to back second places at iem and dallas getting "smashed." Do you really not see a difference between maru losing in the grandfinals and reynor getting kicked out in groups?
Are you just lying to yourself? In what universe do you think getting 4-0 twice in a back to back final is not equivalent to "being smashed"?
Also I'm just refuting your claim of "Reynor got knocked out in GSL but won many tournaments where Serral attened", do I need to remind you that Maru also got knocked out a lot of times in international tournaments. Does it mean GSL is a easier touenamernt? So funny your argument is.
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On July 18 2024 00:41 njleslu2024 wrote:Show nested quote +On July 17 2024 02:37 lokol4890 wrote:On July 16 2024 23:04 njleslu2024 wrote:On July 13 2024 02:24 lokol4890 wrote:On July 13 2024 02:12 Blitzball04 wrote:On July 12 2024 14:18 radracer wrote:On July 12 2024 13:47 Gantz023 wrote:
well....Koreans have enought time to prepare against Serral ...... OH WAIT !!!, prepare is only for GSL... im so stupid xD.
Good games are coming !!!! :D Aww it's ok little guy, you'll figure out the difference between a weekend tournament and a league one day! In all seriousness, you have to dedicate prep for an entire bracket vs a small number of matches, or even one. No one thinks there is "Zero prep" for a weekender, it's a different kind of prep. But somehow people post and actually think that the argument is zero prep vs concentrated prep, then make silly premises like this, which is baffling. Even when we have so many examples of how hard it is for non GSL regulars to perform in GSL. Lol GSL prep build is a myth. There has no prep build since 2017 every game is standard meta game. Once in a blue moon there might be a weird prep build. No one cares for GSL for years now, cause those Korean pros cares fighting for that 3K first place prize lol. The hardest tournaments to win are the ones with Serral Without caring they still keep kicking reynor out in the group stages, the same guy who's won plenty of tournaments that serral has attended Maru who won plenty of GSLs was smashed in international tournaments where Serral attend. Maru has won plenty of tournaments that serral has attended, just fyi, also in what universe is getting back to back second places at iem and dallas getting "smashed." Do you really not see a difference between maru losing in the grandfinals and reynor getting kicked out in groups? Are you just lying to yourself? In what universe do you think getting 4-0 twice in a back to back final is not equivalent to "being smashed"? Also I'm just refuting your claim of "Reynor got knocked out in GSL but won many tournaments where Serral attened", do I need to remind you that Maru also got knocked out a lot of times in international tournaments. Does it mean GSL is a easier touenamernt? So funny your argument is.
Maru doesnt really get knocked out in the group stage of international tournament that much. Other than Serral, he has been the most consistent player in international tournament for the last 3-4 years. Trust me, if Maru got eliminated in a Ro16 of a tournament, we would be all over it.
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On July 18 2024 00:49 tigera6 wrote:Show nested quote +On July 18 2024 00:41 njleslu2024 wrote:On July 17 2024 02:37 lokol4890 wrote:On July 16 2024 23:04 njleslu2024 wrote:On July 13 2024 02:24 lokol4890 wrote:On July 13 2024 02:12 Blitzball04 wrote:On July 12 2024 14:18 radracer wrote:On July 12 2024 13:47 Gantz023 wrote:
well....Koreans have enought time to prepare against Serral ...... OH WAIT !!!, prepare is only for GSL... im so stupid xD.
Good games are coming !!!! :D Aww it's ok little guy, you'll figure out the difference between a weekend tournament and a league one day! In all seriousness, you have to dedicate prep for an entire bracket vs a small number of matches, or even one. No one thinks there is "Zero prep" for a weekender, it's a different kind of prep. But somehow people post and actually think that the argument is zero prep vs concentrated prep, then make silly premises like this, which is baffling. Even when we have so many examples of how hard it is for non GSL regulars to perform in GSL. Lol GSL prep build is a myth. There has no prep build since 2017 every game is standard meta game. Once in a blue moon there might be a weird prep build. No one cares for GSL for years now, cause those Korean pros cares fighting for that 3K first place prize lol. The hardest tournaments to win are the ones with Serral Without caring they still keep kicking reynor out in the group stages, the same guy who's won plenty of tournaments that serral has attended Maru who won plenty of GSLs was smashed in international tournaments where Serral attend. Maru has won plenty of tournaments that serral has attended, just fyi, also in what universe is getting back to back second places at iem and dallas getting "smashed." Do you really not see a difference between maru losing in the grandfinals and reynor getting kicked out in groups? Are you just lying to yourself? In what universe do you think getting 4-0 twice in a back to back final is not equivalent to "being smashed"? Also I'm just refuting your claim of "Reynor got knocked out in GSL but won many tournaments where Serral attened", do I need to remind you that Maru also got knocked out a lot of times in international tournaments. Does it mean GSL is a easier touenamernt? So funny your argument is. Maru doesnt really get knocked out in the group stage of international tournament that much. Other than Serral, he has been the most consistent player in international tournament for the last 3-4 years. Trust me, if Maru got eliminated in a Ro16 of a tournament, we would be all over it.
I know he is one of the most consistent players. I'm just refuting the nonsense "Reynor get knocked out in GSL group stage, he USED TO win some tournaments where Serral participates so GSL is harder", Reynor also failed to advance in Starswar and IEM this year, and he was on fire when he won Gamers 8 last year, his GSL placement doesn't mean shit.
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On July 18 2024 00:41 njleslu2024 wrote:Show nested quote +On July 17 2024 02:37 lokol4890 wrote:On July 16 2024 23:04 njleslu2024 wrote:On July 13 2024 02:24 lokol4890 wrote:On July 13 2024 02:12 Blitzball04 wrote:On July 12 2024 14:18 radracer wrote:On July 12 2024 13:47 Gantz023 wrote:
well....Koreans have enought time to prepare against Serral ...... OH WAIT !!!, prepare is only for GSL... im so stupid xD.
Good games are coming !!!! :D Aww it's ok little guy, you'll figure out the difference between a weekend tournament and a league one day! In all seriousness, you have to dedicate prep for an entire bracket vs a small number of matches, or even one. No one thinks there is "Zero prep" for a weekender, it's a different kind of prep. But somehow people post and actually think that the argument is zero prep vs concentrated prep, then make silly premises like this, which is baffling. Even when we have so many examples of how hard it is for non GSL regulars to perform in GSL. Lol GSL prep build is a myth. There has no prep build since 2017 every game is standard meta game. Once in a blue moon there might be a weird prep build. No one cares for GSL for years now, cause those Korean pros cares fighting for that 3K first place prize lol. The hardest tournaments to win are the ones with Serral Without caring they still keep kicking reynor out in the group stages, the same guy who's won plenty of tournaments that serral has attended Maru who won plenty of GSLs was smashed in international tournaments where Serral attend. Maru has won plenty of tournaments that serral has attended, just fyi, also in what universe is getting back to back second places at iem and dallas getting "smashed." Do you really not see a difference between maru losing in the grandfinals and reynor getting kicked out in groups? Are you just lying to yourself? In what universe do you think getting 4-0 twice in a back to back final is not equivalent to "being smashed"?.
Saying 'getting smashed' and missing off the 'in the finals' part is kinda misleading. Losing in the finals still puts him at a top 2 contender.
If you think Maru got smashed then every other player except Serral did even worse.
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On July 18 2024 01:04 njleslu2024 wrote:Show nested quote +On July 18 2024 00:49 tigera6 wrote:On July 18 2024 00:41 njleslu2024 wrote:On July 17 2024 02:37 lokol4890 wrote:On July 16 2024 23:04 njleslu2024 wrote:On July 13 2024 02:24 lokol4890 wrote:On July 13 2024 02:12 Blitzball04 wrote:On July 12 2024 14:18 radracer wrote:On July 12 2024 13:47 Gantz023 wrote:
well....Koreans have enought time to prepare against Serral ...... OH WAIT !!!, prepare is only for GSL... im so stupid xD.
Good games are coming !!!! :D Aww it's ok little guy, you'll figure out the difference between a weekend tournament and a league one day! In all seriousness, you have to dedicate prep for an entire bracket vs a small number of matches, or even one. No one thinks there is "Zero prep" for a weekender, it's a different kind of prep. But somehow people post and actually think that the argument is zero prep vs concentrated prep, then make silly premises like this, which is baffling. Even when we have so many examples of how hard it is for non GSL regulars to perform in GSL. Lol GSL prep build is a myth. There has no prep build since 2017 every game is standard meta game. Once in a blue moon there might be a weird prep build. No one cares for GSL for years now, cause those Korean pros cares fighting for that 3K first place prize lol. The hardest tournaments to win are the ones with Serral Without caring they still keep kicking reynor out in the group stages, the same guy who's won plenty of tournaments that serral has attended Maru who won plenty of GSLs was smashed in international tournaments where Serral attend. Maru has won plenty of tournaments that serral has attended, just fyi, also in what universe is getting back to back second places at iem and dallas getting "smashed." Do you really not see a difference between maru losing in the grandfinals and reynor getting kicked out in groups? Are you just lying to yourself? In what universe do you think getting 4-0 twice in a back to back final is not equivalent to "being smashed"? Also I'm just refuting your claim of "Reynor got knocked out in GSL but won many tournaments where Serral attened", do I need to remind you that Maru also got knocked out a lot of times in international tournaments. Does it mean GSL is a easier touenamernt? So funny your argument is. Maru doesnt really get knocked out in the group stage of international tournament that much. Other than Serral, he has been the most consistent player in international tournament for the last 3-4 years. Trust me, if Maru got eliminated in a Ro16 of a tournament, we would be all over it. I know he is one of the most consistent players. I'm just refuting the nonsense "Reynor get knocked out in GSL group stage, he USED TO win some tournaments where Serral participates so GSL is harder", Reynor also failed to advance in Starswar and IEM this year, and he was on fire when he won Gamers 8 last year, his GSL placement doesn't mean shit.
I wouldnt say his result in GSL "doesnt mean shit", because he literally was trying hard for it, with tons of practice and even moving to KR in advance and sacrifice his performance in EU Regional by playing with higher ping. But you are correct saying that Reynor hasnt done well in GSL is more of a Reynor problem, than a GSL vs other tournaments issue.
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On July 18 2024 01:57 Fango wrote:Show nested quote +On July 18 2024 00:41 njleslu2024 wrote:On July 17 2024 02:37 lokol4890 wrote:On July 16 2024 23:04 njleslu2024 wrote:On July 13 2024 02:24 lokol4890 wrote:On July 13 2024 02:12 Blitzball04 wrote:On July 12 2024 14:18 radracer wrote:On July 12 2024 13:47 Gantz023 wrote:
well....Koreans have enought time to prepare against Serral ...... OH WAIT !!!, prepare is only for GSL... im so stupid xD.
Good games are coming !!!! :D Aww it's ok little guy, you'll figure out the difference between a weekend tournament and a league one day! In all seriousness, you have to dedicate prep for an entire bracket vs a small number of matches, or even one. No one thinks there is "Zero prep" for a weekender, it's a different kind of prep. But somehow people post and actually think that the argument is zero prep vs concentrated prep, then make silly premises like this, which is baffling. Even when we have so many examples of how hard it is for non GSL regulars to perform in GSL. Lol GSL prep build is a myth. There has no prep build since 2017 every game is standard meta game. Once in a blue moon there might be a weird prep build. No one cares for GSL for years now, cause those Korean pros cares fighting for that 3K first place prize lol. The hardest tournaments to win are the ones with Serral Without caring they still keep kicking reynor out in the group stages, the same guy who's won plenty of tournaments that serral has attended Maru who won plenty of GSLs was smashed in international tournaments where Serral attend. Maru has won plenty of tournaments that serral has attended, just fyi, also in what universe is getting back to back second places at iem and dallas getting "smashed." Do you really not see a difference between maru losing in the grandfinals and reynor getting kicked out in groups? Are you just lying to yourself? In what universe do you think getting 4-0 twice in a back to back final is not equivalent to "being smashed"?. Saying 'getting smashed' and missing off the 'in the finals' part is kinda misleading. Losing in the finals still puts him at a top 2 contender. If you think Maru got smashed then every other player except Serral did even worse.
I don't think it necessarily needs to include "in the final" key word. All I said was to refute the claim of implying "GSL is harder because Reynor did better in some past events than he did in GSL", from the other way round I could say Maru did far worse in DH/ESL events than he did in GSL so GSL is easier, both statements are nonsense.
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On July 18 2024 03:02 njleslu2024 wrote:Show nested quote +On July 18 2024 01:57 Fango wrote:On July 18 2024 00:41 njleslu2024 wrote:On July 17 2024 02:37 lokol4890 wrote:On July 16 2024 23:04 njleslu2024 wrote:On July 13 2024 02:24 lokol4890 wrote:On July 13 2024 02:12 Blitzball04 wrote:On July 12 2024 14:18 radracer wrote:On July 12 2024 13:47 Gantz023 wrote:
well....Koreans have enought time to prepare against Serral ...... OH WAIT !!!, prepare is only for GSL... im so stupid xD.
Good games are coming !!!! :D Aww it's ok little guy, you'll figure out the difference between a weekend tournament and a league one day! In all seriousness, you have to dedicate prep for an entire bracket vs a small number of matches, or even one. No one thinks there is "Zero prep" for a weekender, it's a different kind of prep. But somehow people post and actually think that the argument is zero prep vs concentrated prep, then make silly premises like this, which is baffling. Even when we have so many examples of how hard it is for non GSL regulars to perform in GSL. Lol GSL prep build is a myth. There has no prep build since 2017 every game is standard meta game. Once in a blue moon there might be a weird prep build. No one cares for GSL for years now, cause those Korean pros cares fighting for that 3K first place prize lol. The hardest tournaments to win are the ones with Serral Without caring they still keep kicking reynor out in the group stages, the same guy who's won plenty of tournaments that serral has attended Maru who won plenty of GSLs was smashed in international tournaments where Serral attend. Maru has won plenty of tournaments that serral has attended, just fyi, also in what universe is getting back to back second places at iem and dallas getting "smashed." Do you really not see a difference between maru losing in the grandfinals and reynor getting kicked out in groups? Are you just lying to yourself? In what universe do you think getting 4-0 twice in a back to back final is not equivalent to "being smashed"?. Saying 'getting smashed' and missing off the 'in the finals' part is kinda misleading. Losing in the finals still puts him at a top 2 contender. If you think Maru got smashed then every other player except Serral did even worse. I don't think it necessarily needs to include "in the final" key word. All I said was to refute the claim of implying "GSL is harder because Reynor did better in some past events than he did in GSL", from the other way round I could say Maru did far worse in DH/ESL events than he did in GSL so GSL is easier, both statements are nonsense.
Well you definitely need to include in the 'in the final part'. Otherwise you give the impression Maru does as badly overseas as Reynor does in GSL. Which isn't true, nowadays Maru makes the finals of most tournaments, Reynor lost in GSL group stages.
Losing in the finals is still an incredible achievement.
Additionally, in 2024 Maru didn't really do any worse in those overseas events than he did in GSL. He came second at Dreamhack and IEM and first in Starswar. Similarly he came first and second in the two GSL seasons.
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On July 18 2024 03:30 Fango wrote:Show nested quote +On July 18 2024 03:02 njleslu2024 wrote:On July 18 2024 01:57 Fango wrote:On July 18 2024 00:41 njleslu2024 wrote:On July 17 2024 02:37 lokol4890 wrote:On July 16 2024 23:04 njleslu2024 wrote:On July 13 2024 02:24 lokol4890 wrote:On July 13 2024 02:12 Blitzball04 wrote:On July 12 2024 14:18 radracer wrote:On July 12 2024 13:47 Gantz023 wrote:
well....Koreans have enought time to prepare against Serral ...... OH WAIT !!!, prepare is only for GSL... im so stupid xD.
Good games are coming !!!! :D Aww it's ok little guy, you'll figure out the difference between a weekend tournament and a league one day! In all seriousness, you have to dedicate prep for an entire bracket vs a small number of matches, or even one. No one thinks there is "Zero prep" for a weekender, it's a different kind of prep. But somehow people post and actually think that the argument is zero prep vs concentrated prep, then make silly premises like this, which is baffling. Even when we have so many examples of how hard it is for non GSL regulars to perform in GSL. Lol GSL prep build is a myth. There has no prep build since 2017 every game is standard meta game. Once in a blue moon there might be a weird prep build. No one cares for GSL for years now, cause those Korean pros cares fighting for that 3K first place prize lol. The hardest tournaments to win are the ones with Serral Without caring they still keep kicking reynor out in the group stages, the same guy who's won plenty of tournaments that serral has attended Maru who won plenty of GSLs was smashed in international tournaments where Serral attend. Maru has won plenty of tournaments that serral has attended, just fyi, also in what universe is getting back to back second places at iem and dallas getting "smashed." Do you really not see a difference between maru losing in the grandfinals and reynor getting kicked out in groups? Are you just lying to yourself? In what universe do you think getting 4-0 twice in a back to back final is not equivalent to "being smashed"?. Saying 'getting smashed' and missing off the 'in the finals' part is kinda misleading. Losing in the finals still puts him at a top 2 contender. If you think Maru got smashed then every other player except Serral did even worse. I don't think it necessarily needs to include "in the final" key word. All I said was to refute the claim of implying "GSL is harder because Reynor did better in some past events than he did in GSL", from the other way round I could say Maru did far worse in DH/ESL events than he did in GSL so GSL is easier, both statements are nonsense. Well you definitely need to include in the 'in the final part'. Otherwise you give the impression Maru does as badly overseas as Reynor does in GSL. Which isn't true, nowadays Maru makes the finals of most tournaments, Reynor lost in GSL group stages. Losing in the finals is still an incredible achievement. Additionally, in 2024 Maru didn't really do any worse in those overseas events than he did in GSL. He came second at Dreamhack and IEM and first in Starswar. Similarly he came first and second in the two GSL seasons.
Maru def played better than Reynor this year. All I wanna say is performing better or worse in one event doesn't mean that tournament is easier or harder. There are way more factors which affecting the result of any individual player other than "prep format or not". That's all.
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All I wanna say is performing better or worse in one event doesn't mean that tournament is easier or harder. There are way more factors which affecting the result of any individual player other than "prep format or not". That's all.
You're not doing a very good job of that- you'd fail a debate 100 class the way you're going about it. Saying "Maru got SMASHED" in tournaments where he gets 2nd place is hyperbolic and hurts your argument. Maru getting #1 in GSL and #2 in big weekenders is less of a variance than Reynor getting 0-4'ed in GSL and doing whatever 5-8th in weekenders.
I'd be interested in this exercise: How many weekender champs have never won a GSL. (INCLUDING Koreans, since there aren't enough foreign entrants to GSL) vs how many GSL champs have won weekenders. I'm not going to do the work/research though, lol. My guess is advantage goes to more GSL champs have also been weekender champs.
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On July 18 2024 07:08 radracer wrote:Show nested quote + All I wanna say is performing better or worse in one event doesn't mean that tournament is easier or harder. There are way more factors which affecting the result of any individual player other than "prep format or not". That's all. I'd be interested in this exercise: How many weekender champs have never won a GSL. (INCLUDING Koreans, since there aren't enough foreign entrants to GSL) vs how many GSL champs have won weekenders. I'm not going to do the work/research though, lol. My guess is advantage goes to more GSL champs have also been weekender champs.
That thought-experience doesn't really work or help. For the longest time, GSL featured the best players in the world, so naturally these players also won lots of weekenders, especially on the Premier scale. But it also doesn't work the other way around, since GSL (especially combined with Proleague) could take up quite the amount of space. For example, lots of early-GSL winners (like GanZi, Losira, FruitDealer or even NesTea himself) never won a Premier-Weekender.
That the format isn't particularly decisive can be seen if you compare WCS events though. They used to be kind-of prep-ish, with Group Stages played out long before the playoffs or even events that split up the groups during the week. Of course not the same as the stretched out GSL, but definetly not a weekender either. I wouldn't say players did particularly better or worse in that system or the later on implemented systems.
Though I am curious: What even, if we think only from the winner, constitutes the "harder" system? Only the favorites win, which means it comes down purely to skill? Or that there are plenty of surprise-winners, since the system allows upsets?
Both outcomes could be considered "harder" or "more competitive"
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It does work, because you include Koreans in it. Any Koreans that have won GSL but not the other and vice versa are a good data point. And GSL still has most of the best players in the world.
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Out of the 27 different GSL-winners according to Liquipedia (I excluded Serral, sOs and Trap since they didn't win Code S and Life because it's Life), 19 did win Premier-listed weekenders. Though I didn't particularly check what kind of weekenders, from WCS Global Finals over HomeStory Cups to RedBull Battlegrounds or even GSL vs. the World everything is an option. Therefore eight players (NesTea, Cure, GuMiho, FruitDealer, Jjkaji, RorO, Seed and Sniper) did not manage to win a "weekender". If you think SSL should be rated as Code S, then this list would need to include soO, I think every other SSL-winner also won a Code S at some point.
In reverse, if my count is correct (just expect a +/-1 here), 63 players have won a "weekender" (or in general a non-Code S), without ever winning a Code S.
Again, the definition what exactly a "Premier"-event is, is not consistent on Liquipedia, so all of this should be considered a rough estimation. But these are the raw stats:
19 GSL Champions have won a weekender Premier of any kind.
8 GSL Champions have not won a weekender Premier of any kind.
63 weekender Premier Champions of any kind have not won GSL.
I'm not sure how many GSL Code S there have been exactly (since the Medal-Ranking on Liquipedia mushes together Code S, vs. the World and Super Tournament), I think I did count 47, though feel free to check on that. In comparison, there are 311 Premier events in total (so 264 events that aren't Code S).
Just for the sake of easy numbers, lets pretend that there are five-times as many Weekenders than Code S. So just for fun, lets pretend that there are as many GSL Code S as there are Weekenders - and the distribution of champions in Code S stays the same as before. Meaning, if we take it times 5, 95 GSL Champs would have won a weekender, 40 would have not, while 63 Weekender Champs would not have won GSL.
So yes, if this construct, that I can only assume breaks atleast a few rules of statistics, would hold, we could say that more players win weekenders and not Code S than vice versa. Though just to point out one flaw, this of course ignores the amount of actual wins players get and the fact that not all players who won Weekenders also participated in Code S (Serral being of course the most noteworthy, but there are others).
So there are your numbers, maybe you can make better assumptions based on them than I did.
...also, Note to myself, great way to waste an hour...
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EPT
