|
On July 26 2025 15:12 PremoBeats wrote:Show nested quote +On July 26 2025 04:59 Mizenhauer wrote:On July 26 2025 04:40 Zurka wrote:
Should have future proofed these rankings and put Serral at #1, when this thread was created Maru might have been the goat (debatable) but Serral was still winning events during this time whereas Maru was not and with this latest tournament victory Serral is irrefutablly the goat, so the arguments and discussions can stop now Thank you for telling me when to talk, what to write and what to think, Why even reply to an account like that 
Account like that? What is that even supposed to mean
|
On July 27 2025 04:29 dedede wrote:Show nested quote +On July 26 2025 21:26 Balnazza wrote:On July 26 2025 17:29 dedede wrote:On July 26 2025 17:16 kajtarp wrote:On July 26 2025 17:03 dedede wrote:
Some of you are using Maru's SSL win as a base to claim he is best of all time because he also won things in Hots. Unfortunetaly the sad truth is that the SSL was never on the same level of prestige as a GSL. Most of the time SSL and GSL ran parallel and the players took GSL more seriously. They pracced for GSL and yes, they showed up for SSL, but a big chunk of players didn't really put much effort and practice time for it until they got eliminated from GSL. It was like this. Some players didn't even sign for SSL's when a GSL was running parallel with it. The player pool was always worse in SSL than in GSL. It was like that in Hots, and it was the same during Lotv. The other funny thing are the statements like Serral can't be the goat because he won most if not all of his achievments in the declining era. But if you look when Maru won his achievments, his multiple GSL titles, it was in the same declining era. But the equation is applied for one side (Serral) and then is not applied conveniently for the other side(Maru) lol. I give you the point that SSL wasn’t as important as GSL. However Maru’s proleague performance for two years is what proving him as at least the #2 best Terran in HOTS. Declining era is facts. I give Serrals 2018 Blizzcon win much more credits than other championships after 2020 when covid hit and blizzard pulled out. Lack of offline tournaments due to Covid + Blizzard stop supporting is another major regression since kespa disbanded. And I said Maru’s 4GSLs in a row is much more impressive than the latter 4, when GSL was still the most competitive tournament at that time. The equation is applied on all side, rogue dark all people who won championship after covid time when the competitiveness is going down and to this point SC2 esports all depends on EWC and you can just know who will be the top 8 when looking at the brackets - it’s the lowest competitive. Players knowledge of this game is better ofc, skill level I’m not sure, competitive level definitely is at its lowest point. In facts 30+ players who came back from military service can still compete even be on top, it can tell you something. Can you please pick a timeframe for that supposed "prime time"? In one post it is 2013-2016, then suddenly Marus 4 GSLs in a row are hyper-impressive...that was 2018-19. Maybe we should establish the "SC2 Maru timeline", in which SC2 is always in its prime when Maru wins? Which btw is another thing someone should analyze: Why is Marus claim for GOATness somehow getting stronger with each tournament Serral wins? This crops up every single time Maru loses, this time he couldn't even get into the discussion of winning the tournament... Was Serral the GOAT in 2018? Yes and no. Skillwise I would say he was probably the best player the game has ever seen up to that point, his BlizzCon run was basically the most dominant and stayed that way for years until Clem last year. Accomplishment-wise he was surely up there immediately aswell, but I don't think you can claim even a Top 10 status when you have only one truely competitive year in your resumee. That is why for example my favorite WC3 player of all time Creolophus will never be remotely in the GOAT-discussion - he was the best player in 2007 by far, but he only had that one dominant year before he retired. But Serral kept going, kept doing it. And he reached that status that when people talk about how Serral "dissappointed", it is always in the Quarterfinals. Heck, sometimes he loses in the Semifinals and people go "wow, weak performance by Serral". Serral is the first and probably only player in the history of this game that people expect to win every tournament he enters, everything else but the gold will be used against him for months in argument. Btw history: You yourself disrespect the history of this game quite a bit if you essentially claim that only 3-4 years matter. We are what, in year 14/15? How can you really believe only 20% of what we all do here matters, the rest is just white-noise? No, it is not. You cannot cling on three or four years of this game, everything counts. And if you look at it as a whole, Serrals resume is beyond reproach. Depending on how you count he is either the only Three-time or Four-time World Champion. He broke the korean dominance to a degree that he can go 8-2 against the best korean Protoss in two series and people are not even really fazed by it. Cure, the perhaps 2nd best Terran right now gets high praise...for losing 0-4 against Serral. And he did all that without ever setting foot in a teamhouse. You could have made, like Mizenhauer did, arguments for Maru last year. But after everything that happened since this list was published, the discussion is over (for now). Maru did better his status with his Dallas win for sure, but it doesn't really matter in the long run. At this point, the only thing that could revive it would be a Maru World Championship next year (if we get one). Nothing else can even remotely close the gap anymore between the two, atleast not for the next three years. Show nested quote +You yourself disrespect the history of this game quite a bit if you essentially claim that only 3-4 years matter. I did not claim this, if I did sOs would the goat based on that logic. I claim, the prime years achievement matters a lot more, that is, 2013-2015 kespa era > 2010-2012 pre kespa/2016-2020 post kespa > 2020-now post blizzard era. Show nested quote +You could have made, like Mizenhauer did, arguments for Maru last year. But after everything that happened since this list was published, the discussion is over (for now) . The arguments are mostly the same with Miz, that is, Maru’s biggest claim is his successful performance in all era, especially kespa era and post kespa era. This hasn’t changed. And the IEM and EWC serral won in 2024-2025 weighed different by people depends on how you think the pro scene is dead (I.e. there is no real “professional” esports, just players having rest of most of the year and then come back and compete for 3 months)
But how many more years until it would convince you? I had the problem with Happy: Calling him the GOAT because he dominates the Reforged-era didn't feel right. But if his reign keeps on going...who knows.
SC2 however didn't nearly as much decline as WC3. We still have big tournaments here, offline World Championships. Serral is the best player for most of the last 7-8 years, which is half the runtime of SC2. That's just ridiculous. And if Maru (as you I believe claimed) can't be motivated anymore to play for the biggest prizepools in the game, than that isn't exactly a positive for his GOAT-status.
I will also bring up, though I know it won't convince you, that you essentially put Marus claim on "he was around". Because he wasn't THE guy in the prime-time. He also wasn't "dominating" Proleague, I think he got the MVP once and if I recall in that season Innovation had the same Map Difference than him. Jin Air also only did win Proleague once - the last one, the "easiest" one. So it's not like he ever carried his team to victory, he only did that much later in WTL (and even then it was Solar and Ryung who won the big points).
You can only declare Maru the GOAT if you value the post-"prime". Or if you have an insane Terran bias.
|
On July 27 2025 07:24 Balnazza wrote:Show nested quote +On July 27 2025 04:29 dedede wrote:On July 26 2025 21:26 Balnazza wrote:On July 26 2025 17:29 dedede wrote:On July 26 2025 17:16 kajtarp wrote:On July 26 2025 17:03 dedede wrote:
Some of you are using Maru's SSL win as a base to claim he is best of all time because he also won things in Hots. Unfortunetaly the sad truth is that the SSL was never on the same level of prestige as a GSL. Most of the time SSL and GSL ran parallel and the players took GSL more seriously. They pracced for GSL and yes, they showed up for SSL, but a big chunk of players didn't really put much effort and practice time for it until they got eliminated from GSL. It was like this. Some players didn't even sign for SSL's when a GSL was running parallel with it. The player pool was always worse in SSL than in GSL. It was like that in Hots, and it was the same during Lotv. The other funny thing are the statements like Serral can't be the goat because he won most if not all of his achievments in the declining era. But if you look when Maru won his achievments, his multiple GSL titles, it was in the same declining era. But the equation is applied for one side (Serral) and then is not applied conveniently for the other side(Maru) lol. I give you the point that SSL wasn’t as important as GSL. However Maru’s proleague performance for two years is what proving him as at least the #2 best Terran in HOTS. Declining era is facts. I give Serrals 2018 Blizzcon win much more credits than other championships after 2020 when covid hit and blizzard pulled out. Lack of offline tournaments due to Covid + Blizzard stop supporting is another major regression since kespa disbanded. And I said Maru’s 4GSLs in a row is much more impressive than the latter 4, when GSL was still the most competitive tournament at that time. The equation is applied on all side, rogue dark all people who won championship after covid time when the competitiveness is going down and to this point SC2 esports all depends on EWC and you can just know who will be the top 8 when looking at the brackets - it’s the lowest competitive. Players knowledge of this game is better ofc, skill level I’m not sure, competitive level definitely is at its lowest point. In facts 30+ players who came back from military service can still compete even be on top, it can tell you something. Can you please pick a timeframe for that supposed "prime time"? In one post it is 2013-2016, then suddenly Marus 4 GSLs in a row are hyper-impressive...that was 2018-19. Maybe we should establish the "SC2 Maru timeline", in which SC2 is always in its prime when Maru wins? Which btw is another thing someone should analyze: Why is Marus claim for GOATness somehow getting stronger with each tournament Serral wins? This crops up every single time Maru loses, this time he couldn't even get into the discussion of winning the tournament... Was Serral the GOAT in 2018? Yes and no. Skillwise I would say he was probably the best player the game has ever seen up to that point, his BlizzCon run was basically the most dominant and stayed that way for years until Clem last year. Accomplishment-wise he was surely up there immediately aswell, but I don't think you can claim even a Top 10 status when you have only one truely competitive year in your resumee. That is why for example my favorite WC3 player of all time Creolophus will never be remotely in the GOAT-discussion - he was the best player in 2007 by far, but he only had that one dominant year before he retired. But Serral kept going, kept doing it. And he reached that status that when people talk about how Serral "dissappointed", it is always in the Quarterfinals. Heck, sometimes he loses in the Semifinals and people go "wow, weak performance by Serral". Serral is the first and probably only player in the history of this game that people expect to win every tournament he enters, everything else but the gold will be used against him for months in argument. Btw history: You yourself disrespect the history of this game quite a bit if you essentially claim that only 3-4 years matter. We are what, in year 14/15? How can you really believe only 20% of what we all do here matters, the rest is just white-noise? No, it is not. You cannot cling on three or four years of this game, everything counts. And if you look at it as a whole, Serrals resume is beyond reproach. Depending on how you count he is either the only Three-time or Four-time World Champion. He broke the korean dominance to a degree that he can go 8-2 against the best korean Protoss in two series and people are not even really fazed by it. Cure, the perhaps 2nd best Terran right now gets high praise...for losing 0-4 against Serral. And he did all that without ever setting foot in a teamhouse. You could have made, like Mizenhauer did, arguments for Maru last year. But after everything that happened since this list was published, the discussion is over (for now). Maru did better his status with his Dallas win for sure, but it doesn't really matter in the long run. At this point, the only thing that could revive it would be a Maru World Championship next year (if we get one). Nothing else can even remotely close the gap anymore between the two, atleast not for the next three years. You yourself disrespect the history of this game quite a bit if you essentially claim that only 3-4 years matter. I did not claim this, if I did sOs would the goat based on that logic. I claim, the prime years achievement matters a lot more, that is, 2013-2015 kespa era > 2010-2012 pre kespa/2016-2020 post kespa > 2020-now post blizzard era. You could have made, like Mizenhauer did, arguments for Maru last year. But after everything that happened since this list was published, the discussion is over (for now) . The arguments are mostly the same with Miz, that is, Maru’s biggest claim is his successful performance in all era, especially kespa era and post kespa era. This hasn’t changed. And the IEM and EWC serral won in 2024-2025 weighed different by people depends on how you think the pro scene is dead (I.e. there is no real “professional” esports, just players having rest of most of the year and then come back and compete for 3 months) But how many more years until it would convince you? I had the problem with Happy: Calling him the GOAT because he dominates the Reforged-era didn't feel right. But if his reign keeps on going...who knows. SC2 however didn't nearly as much decline as WC3. We still have big tournaments here, offline World Championships. Serral is the best player for most of the last 7-8 years, which is half the runtime of SC2. That's just ridiculous. And if Maru (as you I believe claimed) can't be motivated anymore to play for the biggest prizepools in the game, than that isn't exactly a positive for his GOAT-status. I will also bring up, though I know it won't convince you, that you essentially put Marus claim on "he was around". Because he wasn't THE guy in the prime-time. He also wasn't "dominating" Proleague, I think he got the MVP once and if I recall in that season Innovation had the same Map Difference than him. Jin Air also only did win Proleague once - the last one, the "easiest" one. So it's not like he ever carried his team to victory, he only did that much later in WTL (and even then it was Solar and Ryung who won the big points). You can only declare Maru the GOAT if you value the post-"prime". Or if you have an insane Terran bias.
But how many more years until it would convince you? I had the problem with Happy: Calling him the GOAT because he dominates the Reforged-era didn't feel right. But if his reign keeps on going...who knows.
This is something worth discussing. For me, never, unless WC3 somehow makes a miraculous comeback with all the hype and tournaments and events and Happy still plays great there. Now no matter how many years Happy dominates, since there is no real "pro" scene for WC3, I just can't based on my standard. This part I need to emphasize that, there is no issue if you think Happy can be the GOAT under this situation because people have different standards about "professional scene" and "competitiveness". What I can't accept is, disrespecting the prime time in the past, which in WC3 case 2005 to 2010. Moon is the GOAT despite he didn't have a WCG title.
I will also bring up, though I know it won't convince you, that you essentially put Marus claim on "he was around"
That’s a fair point but Maru wasn’t the absolute #1, but he was at least the #2 Terran and roughly top 5 overall during HotS (my list in no particular order: Zest, Innovation, sOs, Maru, Life). That’s far from just “being around.”
Looking at Proleague specifically, he had the second-most wins in 2015/2016 and the highest win rate in 2016:
2015 stats:  2015 Proleague/Statistics
2016 stats: 2016 Proleague/Statistics
I probably phrased it too casually because I vividly remember watching Maru being nearly unbeatable in 2015 and 2016 Proleague. But just like when I had to counter people claiming Serral “dominated” 2018–2021 by listing every GSL, IEM Katowice, and BlizzCon result and explaining how much harder GSL and IEM Katowice were compared to BlizzCon, with Maru taking 4 GSLs and Rogue 2 IEMs in that span while Serral only had 1 BlizzCon. I should’ve backed up my point about Maru’s Proleague dominance with the stats and VODs, but I'm having hard time to find all the VODs for each season. I hope Miz can jump in now and help since I kinda want to rewatch SPL now 
|
United States1869 Posts
On July 27 2025 07:46 dedede wrote:Show nested quote +On July 27 2025 07:24 Balnazza wrote:On July 27 2025 04:29 dedede wrote:On July 26 2025 21:26 Balnazza wrote:On July 26 2025 17:29 dedede wrote:On July 26 2025 17:16 kajtarp wrote:On July 26 2025 17:03 dedede wrote:
Some of you are using Maru's SSL win as a base to claim he is best of all time because he also won things in Hots. Unfortunetaly the sad truth is that the SSL was never on the same level of prestige as a GSL. Most of the time SSL and GSL ran parallel and the players took GSL more seriously. They pracced for GSL and yes, they showed up for SSL, but a big chunk of players didn't really put much effort and practice time for it until they got eliminated from GSL. It was like this. Some players didn't even sign for SSL's when a GSL was running parallel with it. The player pool was always worse in SSL than in GSL. It was like that in Hots, and it was the same during Lotv. The other funny thing are the statements like Serral can't be the goat because he won most if not all of his achievments in the declining era. But if you look when Maru won his achievments, his multiple GSL titles, it was in the same declining era. But the equation is applied for one side (Serral) and then is not applied conveniently for the other side(Maru) lol. I give you the point that SSL wasn’t as important as GSL. However Maru’s proleague performance for two years is what proving him as at least the #2 best Terran in HOTS. Declining era is facts. I give Serrals 2018 Blizzcon win much more credits than other championships after 2020 when covid hit and blizzard pulled out. Lack of offline tournaments due to Covid + Blizzard stop supporting is another major regression since kespa disbanded. And I said Maru’s 4GSLs in a row is much more impressive than the latter 4, when GSL was still the most competitive tournament at that time. The equation is applied on all side, rogue dark all people who won championship after covid time when the competitiveness is going down and to this point SC2 esports all depends on EWC and you can just know who will be the top 8 when looking at the brackets - it’s the lowest competitive. Players knowledge of this game is better ofc, skill level I’m not sure, competitive level definitely is at its lowest point. In facts 30+ players who came back from military service can still compete even be on top, it can tell you something. Can you please pick a timeframe for that supposed "prime time"? In one post it is 2013-2016, then suddenly Marus 4 GSLs in a row are hyper-impressive...that was 2018-19. Maybe we should establish the "SC2 Maru timeline", in which SC2 is always in its prime when Maru wins? Which btw is another thing someone should analyze: Why is Marus claim for GOATness somehow getting stronger with each tournament Serral wins? This crops up every single time Maru loses, this time he couldn't even get into the discussion of winning the tournament... Was Serral the GOAT in 2018? Yes and no. Skillwise I would say he was probably the best player the game has ever seen up to that point, his BlizzCon run was basically the most dominant and stayed that way for years until Clem last year. Accomplishment-wise he was surely up there immediately aswell, but I don't think you can claim even a Top 10 status when you have only one truely competitive year in your resumee. That is why for example my favorite WC3 player of all time Creolophus will never be remotely in the GOAT-discussion - he was the best player in 2007 by far, but he only had that one dominant year before he retired. But Serral kept going, kept doing it. And he reached that status that when people talk about how Serral "dissappointed", it is always in the Quarterfinals. Heck, sometimes he loses in the Semifinals and people go "wow, weak performance by Serral". Serral is the first and probably only player in the history of this game that people expect to win every tournament he enters, everything else but the gold will be used against him for months in argument. Btw history: You yourself disrespect the history of this game quite a bit if you essentially claim that only 3-4 years matter. We are what, in year 14/15? How can you really believe only 20% of what we all do here matters, the rest is just white-noise? No, it is not. You cannot cling on three or four years of this game, everything counts. And if you look at it as a whole, Serrals resume is beyond reproach. Depending on how you count he is either the only Three-time or Four-time World Champion. He broke the korean dominance to a degree that he can go 8-2 against the best korean Protoss in two series and people are not even really fazed by it. Cure, the perhaps 2nd best Terran right now gets high praise...for losing 0-4 against Serral. And he did all that without ever setting foot in a teamhouse. You could have made, like Mizenhauer did, arguments for Maru last year. But after everything that happened since this list was published, the discussion is over (for now). Maru did better his status with his Dallas win for sure, but it doesn't really matter in the long run. At this point, the only thing that could revive it would be a Maru World Championship next year (if we get one). Nothing else can even remotely close the gap anymore between the two, atleast not for the next three years. You yourself disrespect the history of this game quite a bit if you essentially claim that only 3-4 years matter. I did not claim this, if I did sOs would the goat based on that logic. I claim, the prime years achievement matters a lot more, that is, 2013-2015 kespa era > 2010-2012 pre kespa/2016-2020 post kespa > 2020-now post blizzard era. You could have made, like Mizenhauer did, arguments for Maru last year. But after everything that happened since this list was published, the discussion is over (for now) . The arguments are mostly the same with Miz, that is, Maru’s biggest claim is his successful performance in all era, especially kespa era and post kespa era. This hasn’t changed. And the IEM and EWC serral won in 2024-2025 weighed different by people depends on how you think the pro scene is dead (I.e. there is no real “professional” esports, just players having rest of most of the year and then come back and compete for 3 months) But how many more years until it would convince you? I had the problem with Happy: Calling him the GOAT because he dominates the Reforged-era didn't feel right. But if his reign keeps on going...who knows. SC2 however didn't nearly as much decline as WC3. We still have big tournaments here, offline World Championships. Serral is the best player for most of the last 7-8 years, which is half the runtime of SC2. That's just ridiculous. And if Maru (as you I believe claimed) can't be motivated anymore to play for the biggest prizepools in the game, than that isn't exactly a positive for his GOAT-status. I will also bring up, though I know it won't convince you, that you essentially put Marus claim on "he was around". Because he wasn't THE guy in the prime-time. He also wasn't "dominating" Proleague, I think he got the MVP once and if I recall in that season Innovation had the same Map Difference than him. Jin Air also only did win Proleague once - the last one, the "easiest" one. So it's not like he ever carried his team to victory, he only did that much later in WTL (and even then it was Solar and Ryung who won the big points). You can only declare Maru the GOAT if you value the post-"prime". Or if you have an insane Terran bias. Show nested quote +But how many more years until it would convince you? I had the problem with Happy: Calling him the GOAT because he dominates the Reforged-era didn't feel right. But if his reign keeps on going...who knows. This is something worthy discussed. For me, never, no matter how many years Happy dominates, since there is no real "pro" scene for WC3, I just can't based on my standard. This part I need to emphasize that, there is no issue if you think Happy can be the GOAT under this situation because people have different standards about "professional scene" and "competitiveness". What I can't accept is, disrespecting the prime time in the past, which in WC3 case 2005 to 2010. Moon is the GOAT despite he didn't have a WCG title. Show nested quote +I will also bring up, though I know it won't convince you, that you essentially put Marus claim on "he was around" That’s a fair point but Maru wasn’t the absolute #1, but he was at least the #2 Terran and roughly top 5 overall during HotS (my list in no particular order: Zest, Innovation, sOs, Maru, Life). That’s far from just “being around.” Looking at Proleague specifically, he had the second-most wins in 2015/2016 and the highest win rate in 2016: 2015 stats: 2015 Proleague/Statistics2016 stats: 2016 Proleague/StatisticsI probably phrased it too casually because I vividly remember watching Maru being nearly unbeatable in 2015 and 2016 Proleague. But just like when I had to counter people claiming Serral “dominated” 2018–2021 by listing every GSL, IEM Katowice, and BlizzCon result and explaining how much harder GSL and IEM Katowice were compared to BlizzCon, with Maru taking 4 GSLs and Rogue 2 IEMs in that span while Serral only had 1 BlizzCon. I should’ve backed up my point about Maru’s Proleague dominance with the stats and VODs, but I'm having hard time to find all the VODs for each season. I hope Miz can jump in now and help since I kinda want to rewatch SPL now
I have Maru as one of top ten players of the Proleague era (I'm ignoring players outside of Korea for simplicity's sake) alongside Zest, Inno, Rain, soO, herO, Classic, sOs and a few I'm forgetting. Ranking these guys against one another gets really tough, but I'm fairly certain there were three stretches in Heart of the Swarm where Maru was the best Terran in Korea. One of those periods came during in the second half of 2013, while the latter occurred during the first half of 2014 and 2015 respectively (shockingly INoVation was the best Terran in Korea during the thus far unaccounted for three half year periods from 2013-15.
|
United States1869 Posts
|
This is something worthy discussed. For me, never, no matter how many years Happy dominates, since there is no real "pro" scene for WC3, I just can't based on my standard. This part I need to emphasize that, there is no issue if you think Happy can be the GOAT under this situation because people have different standards about "professional scene" and "competitiveness". What I can't accept is, disrespecting the prime time in the past, which in WC3 case 2005 to 2010. Moon is the GOAT despite he didn't have a WCG title.
I don't want to go into it too much, as it is of course heavily of topic, but I don't think Moons claim on GOATness is as solid/big as people sometimes claim. His results are usually just Korea-based, he never won ESWC, WCG or BlizzCon. I still think he is the GOAT, just because of his aura, his crazyness, his dominance at times and his tremendous success in Teamleagues, but there is a reason why even in 2007 and '08 we heavily discussed who is better, Grubby or Moon.
And to be honest: If chinese players could have traveled more in these times, I'm almost sure Sky would be considered the GOAT, as much as a passionate Grubby and 4Kings-fan I wouldn't want that.
That’s a fair point but Maru wasn’t the absolute #1, but he was at least the #2 Terran and roughly top 5 overall during HotS (my list in no particular order: Zest, Innovation, sOs, Maru, Life). That’s far from just “being around.”
If you put him in the Top 5 for 2013-2016, that is fair. Though in my mind it would be a clear 5th place with quite the jump to the next four. Though in fairness I don't count the imbecile ever, so I guess Maru is actually 4th?
Looking at Proleague specifically, he had the second-most wins in 2015/2016 and the highest win rate in 2016:
Did you notice how you changed your stats between the two years? If you picked one, he wouldn't be first in either season. Had you applied winrate for 2015 aswell, he would only be ranked 6th. And if you went with "Record", he would have been 2nd in each year. Not exactly the markings of someone being "nearly unbeatable". He also got Finals MVP, but how much that says in a clean 4-0 sweep...
But just like when I had to counter people claiming Serral “dominated” 2018–2021 by listing every GSL, IEM Katowice, and BlizzCon result and explaining how much harder GSL and IEM Katowice were compared to BlizzCon, with Maru taking 4 GSLs and Rogue 2 IEMs in that span while Serral only had 1 BlizzCon.
Neither GSL nor Katowice are "harder to win" than BlizzCon. That is debatable at best. Maru couldn't even qualify for two of the four "prime"-BlizzCons.
Serral also didn't just win one BlizzCon. He also won multiple DH Masters (the Season Finals that also included the GSL topdogs) and managed to never really bomb out of a tournament, except for Katowice '21. Technically also the Last Chance DH at the end of that year, though he did manage to win the following Katowice, so that's not that impactful.
If you claim so heavily on the "the scene declined so much after 2016!" than you have to play by its rules. GSL got less important with each year, while the international tournaments rose up dramatically.
|
France12873 Posts
On July 27 2025 07:24 Balnazza wrote:Show nested quote +On July 27 2025 04:29 dedede wrote:On July 26 2025 21:26 Balnazza wrote:On July 26 2025 17:29 dedede wrote:On July 26 2025 17:16 kajtarp wrote:On July 26 2025 17:03 dedede wrote:
Some of you are using Maru's SSL win as a base to claim he is best of all time because he also won things in Hots. Unfortunetaly the sad truth is that the SSL was never on the same level of prestige as a GSL. Most of the time SSL and GSL ran parallel and the players took GSL more seriously. They pracced for GSL and yes, they showed up for SSL, but a big chunk of players didn't really put much effort and practice time for it until they got eliminated from GSL. It was like this. Some players didn't even sign for SSL's when a GSL was running parallel with it. The player pool was always worse in SSL than in GSL. It was like that in Hots, and it was the same during Lotv. The other funny thing are the statements like Serral can't be the goat because he won most if not all of his achievments in the declining era. But if you look when Maru won his achievments, his multiple GSL titles, it was in the same declining era. But the equation is applied for one side (Serral) and then is not applied conveniently for the other side(Maru) lol. I give you the point that SSL wasn’t as important as GSL. However Maru’s proleague performance for two years is what proving him as at least the #2 best Terran in HOTS. Declining era is facts. I give Serrals 2018 Blizzcon win much more credits than other championships after 2020 when covid hit and blizzard pulled out. Lack of offline tournaments due to Covid + Blizzard stop supporting is another major regression since kespa disbanded. And I said Maru’s 4GSLs in a row is much more impressive than the latter 4, when GSL was still the most competitive tournament at that time. The equation is applied on all side, rogue dark all people who won championship after covid time when the competitiveness is going down and to this point SC2 esports all depends on EWC and you can just know who will be the top 8 when looking at the brackets - it’s the lowest competitive. Players knowledge of this game is better ofc, skill level I’m not sure, competitive level definitely is at its lowest point. In facts 30+ players who came back from military service can still compete even be on top, it can tell you something. Can you please pick a timeframe for that supposed "prime time"? In one post it is 2013-2016, then suddenly Marus 4 GSLs in a row are hyper-impressive...that was 2018-19. Maybe we should establish the "SC2 Maru timeline", in which SC2 is always in its prime when Maru wins? Which btw is another thing someone should analyze: Why is Marus claim for GOATness somehow getting stronger with each tournament Serral wins? This crops up every single time Maru loses, this time he couldn't even get into the discussion of winning the tournament... Was Serral the GOAT in 2018? Yes and no. Skillwise I would say he was probably the best player the game has ever seen up to that point, his BlizzCon run was basically the most dominant and stayed that way for years until Clem last year. Accomplishment-wise he was surely up there immediately aswell, but I don't think you can claim even a Top 10 status when you have only one truely competitive year in your resumee. That is why for example my favorite WC3 player of all time Creolophus will never be remotely in the GOAT-discussion - he was the best player in 2007 by far, but he only had that one dominant year before he retired. But Serral kept going, kept doing it. And he reached that status that when people talk about how Serral "dissappointed", it is always in the Quarterfinals. Heck, sometimes he loses in the Semifinals and people go "wow, weak performance by Serral". Serral is the first and probably only player in the history of this game that people expect to win every tournament he enters, everything else but the gold will be used against him for months in argument. Btw history: You yourself disrespect the history of this game quite a bit if you essentially claim that only 3-4 years matter. We are what, in year 14/15? How can you really believe only 20% of what we all do here matters, the rest is just white-noise? No, it is not. You cannot cling on three or four years of this game, everything counts. And if you look at it as a whole, Serrals resume is beyond reproach. Depending on how you count he is either the only Three-time or Four-time World Champion. He broke the korean dominance to a degree that he can go 8-2 against the best korean Protoss in two series and people are not even really fazed by it. Cure, the perhaps 2nd best Terran right now gets high praise...for losing 0-4 against Serral. And he did all that without ever setting foot in a teamhouse. You could have made, like Mizenhauer did, arguments for Maru last year. But after everything that happened since this list was published, the discussion is over (for now). Maru did better his status with his Dallas win for sure, but it doesn't really matter in the long run. At this point, the only thing that could revive it would be a Maru World Championship next year (if we get one). Nothing else can even remotely close the gap anymore between the two, atleast not for the next three years. You yourself disrespect the history of this game quite a bit if you essentially claim that only 3-4 years matter. I did not claim this, if I did sOs would the goat based on that logic. I claim, the prime years achievement matters a lot more, that is, 2013-2015 kespa era > 2010-2012 pre kespa/2016-2020 post kespa > 2020-now post blizzard era. You could have made, like Mizenhauer did, arguments for Maru last year. But after everything that happened since this list was published, the discussion is over (for now) . The arguments are mostly the same with Miz, that is, Maru’s biggest claim is his successful performance in all era, especially kespa era and post kespa era. This hasn’t changed. And the IEM and EWC serral won in 2024-2025 weighed different by people depends on how you think the pro scene is dead (I.e. there is no real “professional” esports, just players having rest of most of the year and then come back and compete for 3 months) But how many more years until it would convince you? I had the problem with Happy: Calling him the GOAT because he dominates the Reforged-era didn't feel right. But if his reign keeps on going...who knows. SC2 however didn't nearly as much decline as WC3. We still have big tournaments here, offline World Championships. Serral is the best player for most of the last 7-8 years, which is half the runtime of SC2. That's just ridiculous. And if Maru (as you I believe claimed) can't be motivated anymore to play for the biggest prizepools in the game, than that isn't exactly a positive for his GOAT-status. I will also bring up, though I know it won't convince you, that you essentially put Marus claim on "he was around". Because he wasn't THE guy in the prime-time. He also wasn't "dominating" Proleague, I think he got the MVP once and if I recall in that season Innovation had the same Map Difference than him. Jin Air also only did win Proleague once - the last one, the "easiest" one. So it's not like he ever carried his team to victory, he only did that much later in WTL (and even then it was Solar and Ryung who won the big points). You can only declare Maru the GOAT if you value the post-"prime". Or if you have an insane Terran bias.
I mean current wc3 doesn’t really count does it?
Memes aside the game is virtually dead, winning in the current state of wc3 doesn’t mean much other than getting money
|
On July 27 2025 08:38 Poopi wrote:Show nested quote +On July 27 2025 07:24 Balnazza wrote:On July 27 2025 04:29 dedede wrote:On July 26 2025 21:26 Balnazza wrote:On July 26 2025 17:29 dedede wrote:On July 26 2025 17:16 kajtarp wrote:On July 26 2025 17:03 dedede wrote:
Some of you are using Maru's SSL win as a base to claim he is best of all time because he also won things in Hots. Unfortunetaly the sad truth is that the SSL was never on the same level of prestige as a GSL. Most of the time SSL and GSL ran parallel and the players took GSL more seriously. They pracced for GSL and yes, they showed up for SSL, but a big chunk of players didn't really put much effort and practice time for it until they got eliminated from GSL. It was like this. Some players didn't even sign for SSL's when a GSL was running parallel with it. The player pool was always worse in SSL than in GSL. It was like that in Hots, and it was the same during Lotv. The other funny thing are the statements like Serral can't be the goat because he won most if not all of his achievments in the declining era. But if you look when Maru won his achievments, his multiple GSL titles, it was in the same declining era. But the equation is applied for one side (Serral) and then is not applied conveniently for the other side(Maru) lol. I give you the point that SSL wasn’t as important as GSL. However Maru’s proleague performance for two years is what proving him as at least the #2 best Terran in HOTS. Declining era is facts. I give Serrals 2018 Blizzcon win much more credits than other championships after 2020 when covid hit and blizzard pulled out. Lack of offline tournaments due to Covid + Blizzard stop supporting is another major regression since kespa disbanded. And I said Maru’s 4GSLs in a row is much more impressive than the latter 4, when GSL was still the most competitive tournament at that time. The equation is applied on all side, rogue dark all people who won championship after covid time when the competitiveness is going down and to this point SC2 esports all depends on EWC and you can just know who will be the top 8 when looking at the brackets - it’s the lowest competitive. Players knowledge of this game is better ofc, skill level I’m not sure, competitive level definitely is at its lowest point. In facts 30+ players who came back from military service can still compete even be on top, it can tell you something. Can you please pick a timeframe for that supposed "prime time"? In one post it is 2013-2016, then suddenly Marus 4 GSLs in a row are hyper-impressive...that was 2018-19. Maybe we should establish the "SC2 Maru timeline", in which SC2 is always in its prime when Maru wins? Which btw is another thing someone should analyze: Why is Marus claim for GOATness somehow getting stronger with each tournament Serral wins? This crops up every single time Maru loses, this time he couldn't even get into the discussion of winning the tournament... Was Serral the GOAT in 2018? Yes and no. Skillwise I would say he was probably the best player the game has ever seen up to that point, his BlizzCon run was basically the most dominant and stayed that way for years until Clem last year. Accomplishment-wise he was surely up there immediately aswell, but I don't think you can claim even a Top 10 status when you have only one truely competitive year in your resumee. That is why for example my favorite WC3 player of all time Creolophus will never be remotely in the GOAT-discussion - he was the best player in 2007 by far, but he only had that one dominant year before he retired. But Serral kept going, kept doing it. And he reached that status that when people talk about how Serral "dissappointed", it is always in the Quarterfinals. Heck, sometimes he loses in the Semifinals and people go "wow, weak performance by Serral". Serral is the first and probably only player in the history of this game that people expect to win every tournament he enters, everything else but the gold will be used against him for months in argument. Btw history: You yourself disrespect the history of this game quite a bit if you essentially claim that only 3-4 years matter. We are what, in year 14/15? How can you really believe only 20% of what we all do here matters, the rest is just white-noise? No, it is not. You cannot cling on three or four years of this game, everything counts. And if you look at it as a whole, Serrals resume is beyond reproach. Depending on how you count he is either the only Three-time or Four-time World Champion. He broke the korean dominance to a degree that he can go 8-2 against the best korean Protoss in two series and people are not even really fazed by it. Cure, the perhaps 2nd best Terran right now gets high praise...for losing 0-4 against Serral. And he did all that without ever setting foot in a teamhouse. You could have made, like Mizenhauer did, arguments for Maru last year. But after everything that happened since this list was published, the discussion is over (for now). Maru did better his status with his Dallas win for sure, but it doesn't really matter in the long run. At this point, the only thing that could revive it would be a Maru World Championship next year (if we get one). Nothing else can even remotely close the gap anymore between the two, atleast not for the next three years. You yourself disrespect the history of this game quite a bit if you essentially claim that only 3-4 years matter. I did not claim this, if I did sOs would the goat based on that logic. I claim, the prime years achievement matters a lot more, that is, 2013-2015 kespa era > 2010-2012 pre kespa/2016-2020 post kespa > 2020-now post blizzard era. You could have made, like Mizenhauer did, arguments for Maru last year. But after everything that happened since this list was published, the discussion is over (for now) . The arguments are mostly the same with Miz, that is, Maru’s biggest claim is his successful performance in all era, especially kespa era and post kespa era. This hasn’t changed. And the IEM and EWC serral won in 2024-2025 weighed different by people depends on how you think the pro scene is dead (I.e. there is no real “professional” esports, just players having rest of most of the year and then come back and compete for 3 months) But how many more years until it would convince you? I had the problem with Happy: Calling him the GOAT because he dominates the Reforged-era didn't feel right. But if his reign keeps on going...who knows. SC2 however didn't nearly as much decline as WC3. We still have big tournaments here, offline World Championships. Serral is the best player for most of the last 7-8 years, which is half the runtime of SC2. That's just ridiculous. And if Maru (as you I believe claimed) can't be motivated anymore to play for the biggest prizepools in the game, than that isn't exactly a positive for his GOAT-status. I will also bring up, though I know it won't convince you, that you essentially put Marus claim on "he was around". Because he wasn't THE guy in the prime-time. He also wasn't "dominating" Proleague, I think he got the MVP once and if I recall in that season Innovation had the same Map Difference than him. Jin Air also only did win Proleague once - the last one, the "easiest" one. So it's not like he ever carried his team to victory, he only did that much later in WTL (and even then it was Solar and Ryung who won the big points). You can only declare Maru the GOAT if you value the post-"prime". Or if you have an insane Terran bias. I mean current wc3 doesn’t really count does it? Memes aside the game is virtually dead, winning in the current state of wc3 doesn’t mean much other than getting money
Is it more popular than AoE2 scene ? Or nah ?
|
France12873 Posts
On July 27 2025 08:58 goody153 wrote:Show nested quote +On July 27 2025 08:38 Poopi wrote:On July 27 2025 07:24 Balnazza wrote:On July 27 2025 04:29 dedede wrote:On July 26 2025 21:26 Balnazza wrote:On July 26 2025 17:29 dedede wrote:On July 26 2025 17:16 kajtarp wrote:On July 26 2025 17:03 dedede wrote:
Some of you are using Maru's SSL win as a base to claim he is best of all time because he also won things in Hots. Unfortunetaly the sad truth is that the SSL was never on the same level of prestige as a GSL. Most of the time SSL and GSL ran parallel and the players took GSL more seriously. They pracced for GSL and yes, they showed up for SSL, but a big chunk of players didn't really put much effort and practice time for it until they got eliminated from GSL. It was like this. Some players didn't even sign for SSL's when a GSL was running parallel with it. The player pool was always worse in SSL than in GSL. It was like that in Hots, and it was the same during Lotv. The other funny thing are the statements like Serral can't be the goat because he won most if not all of his achievments in the declining era. But if you look when Maru won his achievments, his multiple GSL titles, it was in the same declining era. But the equation is applied for one side (Serral) and then is not applied conveniently for the other side(Maru) lol. I give you the point that SSL wasn’t as important as GSL. However Maru’s proleague performance for two years is what proving him as at least the #2 best Terran in HOTS. Declining era is facts. I give Serrals 2018 Blizzcon win much more credits than other championships after 2020 when covid hit and blizzard pulled out. Lack of offline tournaments due to Covid + Blizzard stop supporting is another major regression since kespa disbanded. And I said Maru’s 4GSLs in a row is much more impressive than the latter 4, when GSL was still the most competitive tournament at that time. The equation is applied on all side, rogue dark all people who won championship after covid time when the competitiveness is going down and to this point SC2 esports all depends on EWC and you can just know who will be the top 8 when looking at the brackets - it’s the lowest competitive. Players knowledge of this game is better ofc, skill level I’m not sure, competitive level definitely is at its lowest point. In facts 30+ players who came back from military service can still compete even be on top, it can tell you something. Can you please pick a timeframe for that supposed "prime time"? In one post it is 2013-2016, then suddenly Marus 4 GSLs in a row are hyper-impressive...that was 2018-19. Maybe we should establish the "SC2 Maru timeline", in which SC2 is always in its prime when Maru wins? Which btw is another thing someone should analyze: Why is Marus claim for GOATness somehow getting stronger with each tournament Serral wins? This crops up every single time Maru loses, this time he couldn't even get into the discussion of winning the tournament... Was Serral the GOAT in 2018? Yes and no. Skillwise I would say he was probably the best player the game has ever seen up to that point, his BlizzCon run was basically the most dominant and stayed that way for years until Clem last year. Accomplishment-wise he was surely up there immediately aswell, but I don't think you can claim even a Top 10 status when you have only one truely competitive year in your resumee. That is why for example my favorite WC3 player of all time Creolophus will never be remotely in the GOAT-discussion - he was the best player in 2007 by far, but he only had that one dominant year before he retired. But Serral kept going, kept doing it. And he reached that status that when people talk about how Serral "dissappointed", it is always in the Quarterfinals. Heck, sometimes he loses in the Semifinals and people go "wow, weak performance by Serral". Serral is the first and probably only player in the history of this game that people expect to win every tournament he enters, everything else but the gold will be used against him for months in argument. Btw history: You yourself disrespect the history of this game quite a bit if you essentially claim that only 3-4 years matter. We are what, in year 14/15? How can you really believe only 20% of what we all do here matters, the rest is just white-noise? No, it is not. You cannot cling on three or four years of this game, everything counts. And if you look at it as a whole, Serrals resume is beyond reproach. Depending on how you count he is either the only Three-time or Four-time World Champion. He broke the korean dominance to a degree that he can go 8-2 against the best korean Protoss in two series and people are not even really fazed by it. Cure, the perhaps 2nd best Terran right now gets high praise...for losing 0-4 against Serral. And he did all that without ever setting foot in a teamhouse. You could have made, like Mizenhauer did, arguments for Maru last year. But after everything that happened since this list was published, the discussion is over (for now). Maru did better his status with his Dallas win for sure, but it doesn't really matter in the long run. At this point, the only thing that could revive it would be a Maru World Championship next year (if we get one). Nothing else can even remotely close the gap anymore between the two, atleast not for the next three years. You yourself disrespect the history of this game quite a bit if you essentially claim that only 3-4 years matter. I did not claim this, if I did sOs would the goat based on that logic. I claim, the prime years achievement matters a lot more, that is, 2013-2015 kespa era > 2010-2012 pre kespa/2016-2020 post kespa > 2020-now post blizzard era. You could have made, like Mizenhauer did, arguments for Maru last year. But after everything that happened since this list was published, the discussion is over (for now) . The arguments are mostly the same with Miz, that is, Maru’s biggest claim is his successful performance in all era, especially kespa era and post kespa era. This hasn’t changed. And the IEM and EWC serral won in 2024-2025 weighed different by people depends on how you think the pro scene is dead (I.e. there is no real “professional” esports, just players having rest of most of the year and then come back and compete for 3 months) But how many more years until it would convince you? I had the problem with Happy: Calling him the GOAT because he dominates the Reforged-era didn't feel right. But if his reign keeps on going...who knows. SC2 however didn't nearly as much decline as WC3. We still have big tournaments here, offline World Championships. Serral is the best player for most of the last 7-8 years, which is half the runtime of SC2. That's just ridiculous. And if Maru (as you I believe claimed) can't be motivated anymore to play for the biggest prizepools in the game, than that isn't exactly a positive for his GOAT-status. I will also bring up, though I know it won't convince you, that you essentially put Marus claim on "he was around". Because he wasn't THE guy in the prime-time. He also wasn't "dominating" Proleague, I think he got the MVP once and if I recall in that season Innovation had the same Map Difference than him. Jin Air also only did win Proleague once - the last one, the "easiest" one. So it's not like he ever carried his team to victory, he only did that much later in WTL (and even then it was Solar and Ryung who won the big points). You can only declare Maru the GOAT if you value the post-"prime". Or if you have an insane Terran bias. I mean current wc3 doesn’t really count does it? Memes aside the game is virtually dead, winning in the current state of wc3 doesn’t mean much other than getting money Is it more popular than AoE2 scene ? Or nah ?
I have no idea about AoE (except that some former sc2 pros can become dominant in AoE4  ), but while WC3 still has some tournaments going on, it’s mostly old pros competing against each other while the game isn’t the main RTS anymore
With 4 races the balance is mathematically worse than sc2 and it’s difficult to consider the competition as valid compared to the glory days
At least in BW, Even though it’s mostly the same club of older players, there are afaik far more progamers and decent stakes money wise
|
On July 27 2025 08:24 Balnazza wrote:Show nested quote +This is something worthy discussed. For me, never, no matter how many years Happy dominates, since there is no real "pro" scene for WC3, I just can't based on my standard. This part I need to emphasize that, there is no issue if you think Happy can be the GOAT under this situation because people have different standards about "professional scene" and "competitiveness". What I can't accept is, disrespecting the prime time in the past, which in WC3 case 2005 to 2010. Moon is the GOAT despite he didn't have a WCG title. I don't want to go into it too much, as it is of course heavily of topic, but I don't think Moons claim on GOATness is as solid/big as people sometimes claim. His results are usually just Korea-based, he never won ESWC, WCG or BlizzCon. I still think he is the GOAT, just because of his aura, his crazyness, his dominance at times and his tremendous success in Teamleagues, but there is a reason why even in 2007 and '08 we heavily discussed who is better, Grubby or Moon. And to be honest: If chinese players could have traveled more in these times, I'm almost sure Sky would be considered the GOAT, as much as a passionate Grubby and 4Kings-fan I wouldn't want that. Show nested quote +That’s a fair point but Maru wasn’t the absolute #1, but he was at least the #2 Terran and roughly top 5 overall during HotS (my list in no particular order: Zest, Innovation, sOs, Maru, Life). That’s far from just “being around.” If you put him in the Top 5 for 2013-2016, that is fair. Though in my mind it would be a clear 5th place with quite the jump to the next four. Though in fairness I don't count the imbecile ever, so I guess Maru is actually 4th? Show nested quote +Looking at Proleague specifically, he had the second-most wins in 2015/2016 and the highest win rate in 2016: Did you notice how you changed your stats between the two years? If you picked one, he wouldn't be first in either season. Had you applied winrate for 2015 aswell, he would only be ranked 6th. And if you went with "Record", he would have been 2nd in each year. Not exactly the markings of someone being "nearly unbeatable". He also got Finals MVP, but how much that says in a clean 4-0 sweep... Show nested quote +But just like when I had to counter people claiming Serral “dominated” 2018–2021 by listing every GSL, IEM Katowice, and BlizzCon result and explaining how much harder GSL and IEM Katowice were compared to BlizzCon, with Maru taking 4 GSLs and Rogue 2 IEMs in that span while Serral only had 1 BlizzCon. Neither GSL nor Katowice are "harder to win" than BlizzCon. That is debatable at best. Maru couldn't even qualify for two of the four "prime"-BlizzCons. Serral also didn't just win one BlizzCon. He also won multiple DH Masters (the Season Finals that also included the GSL topdogs) and managed to never really bomb out of a tournament, except for Katowice '21. Technically also the Last Chance DH at the end of that year, though he did manage to win the following Katowice, so that's not that impactful. If you claim so heavily on the "the scene declined so much after 2016!" than you have to play by its rules. GSL got less important with each year, while the international tournaments rose up dramatically.
And if I look at the 2018-2021 era I'd put Serral at #3 behind Maru and Rogue. It's really only the post-Blizzard era where Serral became dominant and the undisputed best
|
On July 27 2025 08:24 Balnazza wrote:Show nested quote +This is something worthy discussed. For me, never, no matter how many years Happy dominates, since there is no real "pro" scene for WC3, I just can't based on my standard. This part I need to emphasize that, there is no issue if you think Happy can be the GOAT under this situation because people have different standards about "professional scene" and "competitiveness". What I can't accept is, disrespecting the prime time in the past, which in WC3 case 2005 to 2010. Moon is the GOAT despite he didn't have a WCG title. I don't want to go into it too much, as it is of course heavily of topic, but I don't think Moons claim on GOATness is as solid/big as people sometimes claim. His results are usually just Korea-based, he never won ESWC, WCG or BlizzCon. I still think he is the GOAT, just because of his aura, his crazyness, his dominance at times and his tremendous success in Teamleagues, but there is a reason why even in 2007 and '08 we heavily discussed who is better, Grubby or Moon. And to be honest: If chinese players could have traveled more in these times, I'm almost sure Sky would be considered the GOAT, as much as a passionate Grubby and 4Kings-fan I wouldn't want that. Show nested quote +That’s a fair point but Maru wasn’t the absolute #1, but he was at least the #2 Terran and roughly top 5 overall during HotS (my list in no particular order: Zest, Innovation, sOs, Maru, Life). That’s far from just “being around.” If you put him in the Top 5 for 2013-2016, that is fair. Though in my mind it would be a clear 5th place with quite the jump to the next four. Though in fairness I don't count the imbecile ever, so I guess Maru is actually 4th? Show nested quote +Looking at Proleague specifically, he had the second-most wins in 2015/2016 and the highest win rate in 2016: Did you notice how you changed your stats between the two years? If you picked one, he wouldn't be first in either season. Had you applied winrate for 2015 aswell, he would only be ranked 6th. And if you went with "Record", he would have been 2nd in each year. Not exactly the markings of someone being "nearly unbeatable". He also got Finals MVP, but how much that says in a clean 4-0 sweep... Show nested quote +But just like when I had to counter people claiming Serral “dominated” 2018–2021 by listing every GSL, IEM Katowice, and BlizzCon result and explaining how much harder GSL and IEM Katowice were compared to BlizzCon, with Maru taking 4 GSLs and Rogue 2 IEMs in that span while Serral only had 1 BlizzCon. Neither GSL nor Katowice are "harder to win" than BlizzCon. That is debatable at best. Maru couldn't even qualify for two of the four "prime"-BlizzCons. Serral also didn't just win one BlizzCon. He also won multiple DH Masters (the Season Finals that also included the GSL topdogs) and managed to never really bomb out of a tournament, except for Katowice '21. Technically also the Last Chance DH at the end of that year, though he did manage to win the following Katowice, so that's not that impactful. If you claim so heavily on the "the scene declined so much after 2016!" than you have to play by its rules. GSL got less important with each year, while the international tournaments rose up dramatically.
Did you notice how you changed your stats between the two years? If you picked one, he wouldn't be first in either season. Had you applied winrate for 2015 aswell, he would only be ranked 6th. And if you went with "Record", he would have been 2nd in each year. Not exactly the markings of someone being "nearly unbeatable". He also got Finals MVP, but how much that says in a clean 4-0 sweep...
What do you mean by changing stats between the two years, it's one sentence that he got #2 wins in both 2015 and 2016, then furthermore he got #1 winrate in 2016. You can rephrase it as he got #1 winrate in 2016 and #6 winrate in 2015, and #2 wins both in 2015, 2016. Whichever you prefer, he was dominating proleague those two years.
I don't want to go into it too much, as it is of course heavily of topic, but I don't think Moons claim on GOATness is as solid/big as people sometimes claim
Agree to disagree, but Moon and Sky is my #1 and #2 GOAT. Happy can dominate another 10 years but still can't surpass Sky in my heart (very subjectively speaking).
Neither GSL nor Katowice are "harder to win" than BlizzCon. That is debatable at best. Maru couldn't even qualify for two of the four "prime"-BlizzCons.
It can be debatable, but Maru didn't qualify 2016 because he was focusing on the last SPL (Jinair stuff actually said it live I can't find the source but I vividly remember). As for GSL is not harder to win than Blizzcon before 2020, it's like WCG SK is harder then WCG itself. When only top 8 korean players can play in Blizzcon, GSL and Kato were definitely harder to win.
If you put him in the Top 5 for 2013-2016, that is fair. Though in my mind it would be a clear 5th place with quite the jump to the next four. Though in fairness I don't count the imbecile ever, so I guess Maru is actually 4th?
4th is fair for 2013-2016. 3rd imo for 2015-2016. sOs 2013 and 2015 WCS plus IEM is too shiny, but I feel weird to put him on top. And I agree with Miz, there are phases when Maru was the #1 terran, so if we talk about 2015, Life, Maru, sOs is my top3.
|
On July 27 2025 08:04 Mizenhauer wrote:Show nested quote +On July 27 2025 07:46 dedede wrote:On July 27 2025 07:24 Balnazza wrote:On July 27 2025 04:29 dedede wrote:On July 26 2025 21:26 Balnazza wrote:On July 26 2025 17:29 dedede wrote:On July 26 2025 17:16 kajtarp wrote:On July 26 2025 17:03 dedede wrote:
Some of you are using Maru's SSL win as a base to claim he is best of all time because he also won things in Hots. Unfortunetaly the sad truth is that the SSL was never on the same level of prestige as a GSL. Most of the time SSL and GSL ran parallel and the players took GSL more seriously. They pracced for GSL and yes, they showed up for SSL, but a big chunk of players didn't really put much effort and practice time for it until they got eliminated from GSL. It was like this. Some players didn't even sign for SSL's when a GSL was running parallel with it. The player pool was always worse in SSL than in GSL. It was like that in Hots, and it was the same during Lotv. The other funny thing are the statements like Serral can't be the goat because he won most if not all of his achievments in the declining era. But if you look when Maru won his achievments, his multiple GSL titles, it was in the same declining era. But the equation is applied for one side (Serral) and then is not applied conveniently for the other side(Maru) lol. I give you the point that SSL wasn’t as important as GSL. However Maru’s proleague performance for two years is what proving him as at least the #2 best Terran in HOTS. Declining era is facts. I give Serrals 2018 Blizzcon win much more credits than other championships after 2020 when covid hit and blizzard pulled out. Lack of offline tournaments due to Covid + Blizzard stop supporting is another major regression since kespa disbanded. And I said Maru’s 4GSLs in a row is much more impressive than the latter 4, when GSL was still the most competitive tournament at that time. The equation is applied on all side, rogue dark all people who won championship after covid time when the competitiveness is going down and to this point SC2 esports all depends on EWC and you can just know who will be the top 8 when looking at the brackets - it’s the lowest competitive. Players knowledge of this game is better ofc, skill level I’m not sure, competitive level definitely is at its lowest point. In facts 30+ players who came back from military service can still compete even be on top, it can tell you something. Can you please pick a timeframe for that supposed "prime time"? In one post it is 2013-2016, then suddenly Marus 4 GSLs in a row are hyper-impressive...that was 2018-19. Maybe we should establish the "SC2 Maru timeline", in which SC2 is always in its prime when Maru wins? Which btw is another thing someone should analyze: Why is Marus claim for GOATness somehow getting stronger with each tournament Serral wins? This crops up every single time Maru loses, this time he couldn't even get into the discussion of winning the tournament... Was Serral the GOAT in 2018? Yes and no. Skillwise I would say he was probably the best player the game has ever seen up to that point, his BlizzCon run was basically the most dominant and stayed that way for years until Clem last year. Accomplishment-wise he was surely up there immediately aswell, but I don't think you can claim even a Top 10 status when you have only one truely competitive year in your resumee. That is why for example my favorite WC3 player of all time Creolophus will never be remotely in the GOAT-discussion - he was the best player in 2007 by far, but he only had that one dominant year before he retired. But Serral kept going, kept doing it. And he reached that status that when people talk about how Serral "dissappointed", it is always in the Quarterfinals. Heck, sometimes he loses in the Semifinals and people go "wow, weak performance by Serral". Serral is the first and probably only player in the history of this game that people expect to win every tournament he enters, everything else but the gold will be used against him for months in argument. Btw history: You yourself disrespect the history of this game quite a bit if you essentially claim that only 3-4 years matter. We are what, in year 14/15? How can you really believe only 20% of what we all do here matters, the rest is just white-noise? No, it is not. You cannot cling on three or four years of this game, everything counts. And if you look at it as a whole, Serrals resume is beyond reproach. Depending on how you count he is either the only Three-time or Four-time World Champion. He broke the korean dominance to a degree that he can go 8-2 against the best korean Protoss in two series and people are not even really fazed by it. Cure, the perhaps 2nd best Terran right now gets high praise...for losing 0-4 against Serral. And he did all that without ever setting foot in a teamhouse. You could have made, like Mizenhauer did, arguments for Maru last year. But after everything that happened since this list was published, the discussion is over (for now). Maru did better his status with his Dallas win for sure, but it doesn't really matter in the long run. At this point, the only thing that could revive it would be a Maru World Championship next year (if we get one). Nothing else can even remotely close the gap anymore between the two, atleast not for the next three years. You yourself disrespect the history of this game quite a bit if you essentially claim that only 3-4 years matter. I did not claim this, if I did sOs would the goat based on that logic. I claim, the prime years achievement matters a lot more, that is, 2013-2015 kespa era > 2010-2012 pre kespa/2016-2020 post kespa > 2020-now post blizzard era. You could have made, like Mizenhauer did, arguments for Maru last year. But after everything that happened since this list was published, the discussion is over (for now) . The arguments are mostly the same with Miz, that is, Maru’s biggest claim is his successful performance in all era, especially kespa era and post kespa era. This hasn’t changed. And the IEM and EWC serral won in 2024-2025 weighed different by people depends on how you think the pro scene is dead (I.e. there is no real “professional” esports, just players having rest of most of the year and then come back and compete for 3 months) But how many more years until it would convince you? I had the problem with Happy: Calling him the GOAT because he dominates the Reforged-era didn't feel right. But if his reign keeps on going...who knows. SC2 however didn't nearly as much decline as WC3. We still have big tournaments here, offline World Championships. Serral is the best player for most of the last 7-8 years, which is half the runtime of SC2. That's just ridiculous. And if Maru (as you I believe claimed) can't be motivated anymore to play for the biggest prizepools in the game, than that isn't exactly a positive for his GOAT-status. I will also bring up, though I know it won't convince you, that you essentially put Marus claim on "he was around". Because he wasn't THE guy in the prime-time. He also wasn't "dominating" Proleague, I think he got the MVP once and if I recall in that season Innovation had the same Map Difference than him. Jin Air also only did win Proleague once - the last one, the "easiest" one. So it's not like he ever carried his team to victory, he only did that much later in WTL (and even then it was Solar and Ryung who won the big points). You can only declare Maru the GOAT if you value the post-"prime". Or if you have an insane Terran bias. But how many more years until it would convince you? I had the problem with Happy: Calling him the GOAT because he dominates the Reforged-era didn't feel right. But if his reign keeps on going...who knows. This is something worthy discussed. For me, never, no matter how many years Happy dominates, since there is no real "pro" scene for WC3, I just can't based on my standard. This part I need to emphasize that, there is no issue if you think Happy can be the GOAT under this situation because people have different standards about "professional scene" and "competitiveness". What I can't accept is, disrespecting the prime time in the past, which in WC3 case 2005 to 2010. Moon is the GOAT despite he didn't have a WCG title. I will also bring up, though I know it won't convince you, that you essentially put Marus claim on "he was around" That’s a fair point but Maru wasn’t the absolute #1, but he was at least the #2 Terran and roughly top 5 overall during HotS (my list in no particular order: Zest, Innovation, sOs, Maru, Life). That’s far from just “being around.” Looking at Proleague specifically, he had the second-most wins in 2015/2016 and the highest win rate in 2016: 2015 stats: 2015 Proleague/Statistics2016 stats: 2016 Proleague/StatisticsI probably phrased it too casually because I vividly remember watching Maru being nearly unbeatable in 2015 and 2016 Proleague. But just like when I had to counter people claiming Serral “dominated” 2018–2021 by listing every GSL, IEM Katowice, and BlizzCon result and explaining how much harder GSL and IEM Katowice were compared to BlizzCon, with Maru taking 4 GSLs and Rogue 2 IEMs in that span while Serral only had 1 BlizzCon. I should’ve backed up my point about Maru’s Proleague dominance with the stats and VODs, but I'm having hard time to find all the VODs for each season. I hope Miz can jump in now and help since I kinda want to rewatch SPL now I have Maru as one of top ten players of the Proleague era (I'm ignoring players outside of Korea for simplicity's sake) alongside Zest, Inno, Rain, soO, herO, Classic, sOs and a few I'm forgetting. Ranking these guys against one another gets really tough, but I'm fairly certain there were three stretches in Heart of the Swarm where Maru was the best Terran in Korea. One of those periods came during in the second half of 2013, while the latter occurred during the first half of 2014 and 2015 respectively (shockingly INoVation was the best Terran in Korea during the thus far unaccounted for three half year periods from 2013-15.
Matches my memory. It reminded me once again of how Maru lost to his teammate in WCS 2015 when I was so sure he would win. He always does that
|
There are still people around who don't recognize Serral as GOAT?
lol
|
Oh yeah because it just doesn’t make sense to some people call someone the greatest of all time for dominating during a weak era (2022–2025), and just makes sense to the other people believe being the best right now with being the greatest of all time or buy so deeply into the ESL narrative as if they’re the ones officially crowning the GOAT.
Btw, I watch tennis, soccer, and basketball, and I’ve never seen any tournament organizer itself push the GOAT narrative this hard as if they are the official authority. I’ve also never seen a group of hosts or casters show such obvious bias in any other sport, lol. I guess as the SC2 scene declines, neither the players nor the casters/hosts are really ‘pros’ anymore, so they don’t feel the need to act professional
|
On July 27 2025 16:26 dedede wrote:Oh yeah because it just doesn’t make sense to some people call someone the greatest of all time for dominating during a weak era (2022–2025), and just makes sense to the other people believe being the best right now with being the greatest of all time or buy so deeply into the ESL narrative as if they’re the ones officially crowning the GOAT. Btw, I watch tennis, soccer, and basketball, and I’ve never seen any tournament organizer itself push the GOAT narrative this hard as if they are the official authority. I’ve also never seen a group of hosts or casters show such obvious bias in any other sport, lol. I guess as the SC2 scene declines, neither the players nor the casters/hosts are really ‘pros’ anymore, so they don’t feel the need to act professional
You debate on-topic until you decide to be either straight-up aggressive or passive-aggressive (a smiley? Really?) to casters rather than bring up an actual interesting conversation in good faith on whether the GOAT subject *is* professional or not.
For my take on it, esports casting and production is just different. There's lots of things that esports productions would not do compared to traditional productions, and I love that. I personally don't use the GOAT terminology much at all but I've also never looked at my co-casters (or the production with the graphics, social media, etc) as unprofessional for bringing it into the discussion. If there are others who have such strong opinions, it hasn't reached anyone. So, it seems the community is generally okay with it and doesn't feel the need to take potshots.
I'll add a more on-topic thing here which is that I do think Serral is the greatest of all time, but I understand the Maru argument. At this point most (all?) players even point to Serral. I also don't think it's that serious and it does breed one too many jerks with how serious some people do take it.
Fun BTS stuff from EWC: In an interview with Rogue, it was asked who he thought was GOAT and maybe, is it him? He said if Serral wins, Serral is. If Maru wins, Maru is. Rogue said he should not be in the conversation.
|
On July 27 2025 16:53 ZombieGrub wrote:Show nested quote +On July 27 2025 16:26 dedede wrote:Oh yeah because it just doesn’t make sense to some people call someone the greatest of all time for dominating during a weak era (2022–2025), and just makes sense to the other people believe being the best right now with being the greatest of all time or buy so deeply into the ESL narrative as if they’re the ones officially crowning the GOAT. Btw, I watch tennis, soccer, and basketball, and I’ve never seen any tournament organizer itself push the GOAT narrative this hard as if they are the official authority. I’ve also never seen a group of hosts or casters show such obvious bias in any other sport, lol. I guess as the SC2 scene declines, neither the players nor the casters/hosts are really ‘pros’ anymore, so they don’t feel the need to act professional You debate on-topic until you decide to be either straight-up aggressive or passive-aggressive (a smiley? Really?) to casters rather than bring up an actual interesting conversation in good faith on whether the GOAT subject *is* professional or not. For my take on it, esports casting and production is just different. There's lots of things that esports productions would not do compared to traditional productions, and I love that. I personally don't use the GOAT terminology much at all but I've also never looked at my co-casters (or the production with the graphics, social media, etc) as unprofessional for bringing it into the discussion. If there are others who have such strong opinions, it hasn't reached anyone. So, it seems the community is generally okay with it and doesn't feel the need to take potshots. I'll add a more on-topic thing here which is that I do think Serral is the greatest of all time, but I understand the Maru argument. At this point most (all?) players even point to Serral. I also don't think it's that serious and it does breed one too many jerks with how serious some people do take it. Fun BTS stuff from EWC: In an interview with Rogue, it was asked who he thought was GOAT and maybe, is it him? He said if Serral wins, Serral is. If Maru wins, Maru is. Rogue said he should not be in the conversation.
Could he have said so out of politeness? What was the context of the conversation?
To me, this year's EWC wasn't even necessary to determine the GOAT. Anyway, thanks for sharing... the quote should carry extra weight for dedede, who seems to like Rogue's quotes as seen in other threads :D
On July 27 2025 01:59 Mizenhauer wrote:Show nested quote +On July 27 2025 01:06 PremoBeats wrote:
My biggest contention is the notion that the general format was the same.
I'd say a Bo5 in the Challenge of SSL 2015 (Ro32) is definitely easier than a Ro32 group stage of GSL, due to its unforgiving nature.
Double elimination post 2015 was a difficulty downgrade as essentially every player in the knockout stage has 2 lives (except the upper bracket finalist). Depending on the format this means a 3-6% win rate boost.
2017 with the round robin change and the potential seeding into the finals feels further toned down in comparison to GSL.
2017 SSL was a big issue for me when it came to tracking win rates. I give the winner's as much credit as if they won Code S, but I set the nine matches from the round robin aside. I made note of them, but those numbers were excluded from my calculation. Winning GSL required seven wins back then, but you could win the event with as many as four match losses. I don't think there's a huge difference between going 8-3 to win SSL (a 6-3 record that finishes third and the aforementioned record.
Help me out here.. you were able to lose 1 match per group stage, otherwise you are out. After that it is a single elimination knockout bracket... where did I miss the other two possible match losses when winning GSL?
What do you think about a tournament formula that encapsulates balance through map win statistics, needed wins, amount of potential losses, amount of group stages and single versus double elimination? These would be pretty hard facts that could be measured. Round robins would be a little bit harder to evaluate but I think some kind of factor could be calculated through a probabilistic model against 1 or 2 group stage tournament with quarters, semis and finals.
Some kind of difficulty in terms of the participated players would be needed as well. Perhaps a quota of the player's average rank of the Ro8 in this tournament versus the 6 tournaments before and after it?
Such a method should work pretty well until 2022. GSL 2015 had an average of 13,88... in 2022 it is 15,10 and 14,60. In 2023 the player decline affects the averages too much, where we have averages of under 10. But before that, this method should work quite well.
On July 27 2025 02:24 dedede wrote:Show nested quote +On July 27 2025 00:26 onPHYRE wrote:
You guys realize Maru and Serral played in the same era right? Maru winning some random tournament a few years before Serral started dominating world SC2 does not mean they did not have 95-97% of their accomplishments at the same time. You can’t use it to detract from Serral without also having it detract from Maru. And no one prior to them (or since) should even be in the GOAT discussion. Same era? Where was serral when Maru won OSL in 2013 and dominating proleague? That “a few years ago” matters the most as it’s stated many times that the scene was at its most competitive in Kespa era, and Maru’s OSL and SSL(random tournaments? It’s literally star league and go check the bracket to see who’s playing in it) and his dominating proleague performance (if you don’t know how important proleague was in kespa era then no need to discuss more) in prime years are the best arguments for his GOAT claims. Acting like the game only started in 2018 just because Serral achieved nothing from 2010–2017 is classic. The GOAT discussion doesn’t center around Serral, it’s about comparing every player’s full resume to determine why they are the greatest of ALL TIME. MVP, Rain, and sOs are all on that list because of their legendary accomplishments in WoL and HotS, and Innovations and Maru’s HotS performance contribute to their resume too. Even by your own logic, the debate revolves around Serral, yet from 2018–2022 Maru’s record (4 Code S titles + 1WESG) still outweighs 1Blizzcon. It wasn’t until after 2022 that Serral surpassed Maru in achievements and head-to-head. But as the scene keeps shrinking year after year, 2022–2025 is clearly weaker and less competitive compared to 2018–2022, even if Serral’s 2 IEM wins and 1 EWC are solid titles. The it comes to the logical question, if the scene remains or keeps shrinking and someone started to win 5 EWC in a row, is he the goat? If you think serral is the goat now because he has more wc titles, then that 5 EWC champion should be the goat. For me, I won’t call anyone dominating a weak era the greatest of all time, even it’s 10 EWC titles.
And
On July 27 2025 09:14 Charoisaur wrote:Show nested quote +On July 27 2025 08:24 Balnazza wrote:This is something worthy discussed. For me, never, no matter how many years Happy dominates, since there is no real "pro" scene for WC3, I just can't based on my standard. This part I need to emphasize that, there is no issue if you think Happy can be the GOAT under this situation because people have different standards about "professional scene" and "competitiveness". What I can't accept is, disrespecting the prime time in the past, which in WC3 case 2005 to 2010. Moon is the GOAT despite he didn't have a WCG title. I don't want to go into it too much, as it is of course heavily of topic, but I don't think Moons claim on GOATness is as solid/big as people sometimes claim. His results are usually just Korea-based, he never won ESWC, WCG or BlizzCon. I still think he is the GOAT, just because of his aura, his crazyness, his dominance at times and his tremendous success in Teamleagues, but there is a reason why even in 2007 and '08 we heavily discussed who is better, Grubby or Moon. And to be honest: If chinese players could have traveled more in these times, I'm almost sure Sky would be considered the GOAT, as much as a passionate Grubby and 4Kings-fan I wouldn't want that. That’s a fair point but Maru wasn’t the absolute #1, but he was at least the #2 Terran and roughly top 5 overall during HotS (my list in no particular order: Zest, Innovation, sOs, Maru, Life). That’s far from just “being around.” If you put him in the Top 5 for 2013-2016, that is fair. Though in my mind it would be a clear 5th place with quite the jump to the next four. Though in fairness I don't count the imbecile ever, so I guess Maru is actually 4th? Looking at Proleague specifically, he had the second-most wins in 2015/2016 and the highest win rate in 2016: Did you notice how you changed your stats between the two years? If you picked one, he wouldn't be first in either season. Had you applied winrate for 2015 aswell, he would only be ranked 6th. And if you went with "Record", he would have been 2nd in each year. Not exactly the markings of someone being "nearly unbeatable". He also got Finals MVP, but how much that says in a clean 4-0 sweep... But just like when I had to counter people claiming Serral “dominated” 2018–2021 by listing every GSL, IEM Katowice, and BlizzCon result and explaining how much harder GSL and IEM Katowice were compared to BlizzCon, with Maru taking 4 GSLs and Rogue 2 IEMs in that span while Serral only had 1 BlizzCon. Neither GSL nor Katowice are "harder to win" than BlizzCon. That is debatable at best. Maru couldn't even qualify for two of the four "prime"-BlizzCons. Serral also didn't just win one BlizzCon. He also won multiple DH Masters (the Season Finals that also included the GSL topdogs) and managed to never really bomb out of a tournament, except for Katowice '21. Technically also the Last Chance DH at the end of that year, though he did manage to win the following Katowice, so that's not that impactful. If you claim so heavily on the "the scene declined so much after 2016!" than you have to play by its rules. GSL got less important with each year, while the international tournaments rose up dramatically. And if I look at the 2018-2021 era I'd put Serral at #3 behind Maru and Rogue. It's really only the post-Blizzard era where Serral became dominant and the undisputed best
2018-2021, only from tournaments with top Korean participation of course and only versus top Koreans/Serral
Match win rates (the higher, the better)
Maru
66,18
64,86
68,42
76,39
Serral
85,71
76,67
85,71
70,31
Rogue
62,44
65,56
59,46
54,31
Tournament win percentage (the higher, the better)
2018 (Maru - Serral - Rogue)
44,44
50,00
11,11
2019 (Maru - Serral - Rogue)
11,11
33,33
14,29
2020 (Maru - Serral - Rogue)
20,00
28,57
20,00
2021 (Maru - Serral - Rogue)
18,18
22,22
25,00
Average place (the lower, the better)
Maru
3,39
10,97
5,60
4,32
Serral
2,92
2,92
5,14
4,06
Rogue
12,49
12,31
8,90
5,25
PT wins
Maru 9, including 4 GSLs. In 5 out of these 9 tournaments the statistically absolute best player of the world was not present
Serral 9, including 1 World Championship. 7 region lock PT wins were not counted.
Rogue 7, including 1 World Championship and 2 GSLs.
One can discuss whether this or that tournament was a WC or if it counts as a GSL… or how much impact it has on the Korean players' match win rates and tournament win percentage when Serral is present in a tournament. I think Maru and Serral are pretty head to head in that time frame if you look only at PT wins.. but with higher resolution including average rank, match win rates and tournament win percentage the difference is pretty wild. Rogue is 5 percentage points below Serral’s lowest number. And this is not adjusted for the Korean inflation of playing a lot of lower tier Koreans in qualifiers that Serral did not do.
A fun fact: Even if we include in Serral’s tournament win percentage all of the over 20 GSLs that he missed as a loss, he’d still be above Maru and Rogue statistically.
The time frame also seems kind of random/unintuitive. Rogue began his military in 2022 so a comparison between the three in that time frame seems more natural.
Overall, for the time that they played together on the big stage (Maru and Serral since 2018 as well as Serral and Rogue from 2018-2022), Serral heavily outperformed them in all measurable statistics.
In my article I included career-long statistics though, even the Serral’s slump years before he turned full time pro in 2018. Statistically, he still is far ahead.
The more recent years, especially 2025 were number-wise competitively not as big as 2013-2015. GSL took hits from 2020 onward with constant player pool adjustments and the Koreans were impacted more in relation than the global scene (for obvious reasons).
Some say that it is easier to win post-KeSPA, which might or might not be true because of StarCraft 2’s utterly different learning curve in comparison to other games, the downgraded tournament pool and the situation that you have to go through a 87% win rate monster (well… not in GSLs huehue). But even if that assumption was true, the question needs to be permitted: Why are Serral’s numbers so much better than the ones of his contemporaries Maru and Rogue?
Overall I agree… the lifetime achievements of a player are important. But so are achievements relative to others. Maru may be the 2nd best Terran in HotS. But INno was above him even after 2018 (Inno 2 GSLs in KeSPA, plus an SSL and GSL in less than a year after the KeSPA disbandment). To me, Maru clearly took over around 2020 from INno.
But in 2018 Serral came onto the stage and put his name on the table in a fashion that rivaled - and to me slightly beats - Maru’s insane 2018. And after 2018, year after year Serral’s claim grew stronger and stronger when he outperformed Maru.
I asked several times how long Maru’s HotS buffer of being the 2nd best Terran and at most top4 overall will save him from Serral taking over - I never got an answer.
To me it is fine that people like dedede or johnny put him as their GOAT. He is probably the 2nd best choice. But to me it makes sense why Miz updated his list (although its first iteration didn’t )
Just some statistics/quirks that I owe to WombaT for quite some time. Some of these lack context and are not meant as a serious argument. If you find errors, let me know.
- He was on rank 1 on Aligulac for over 40% of the game’s existence. If you include rank two it is over 50%.
- Serral is the only player to be listed as the best versus all three races multiple times at different points of time in his career and did so four times overall.
- Only player to go over 3800 Aligulac rating
- Only player to go over 3900 Aligulac rating
- Serral is either rank 1 or 2 since the beginning of 2018.
- Serral wasn’t overtaken by anyone on Aligulac since April 2023.
- Longest ever consecutive run of not losing a match versus Koreans: 26
- 2nd longest ever consecutive run of not losing a match versus Koreans: 19
- 3rd longest ever consecutive run of not losing a match versus Koreans: 18
- Longest ever consecutive run of not losing a match: 47
- Highest yearly win rates ever achieved (only versus Koreans): 96,30%, 85,71%, 2x 85,11%
- Highest career long match win rate, despite others having much shorter careers (only versus Koreans): 70,73
- Highest career long match rate overall: 79,17%
- Highest prime match rate versus Koreans: 80,27%
- Highest prime match rate overall: 86,23%
- Highest life time tournament win percentage: 38,10%
- Even if you include all GSLs that Serral missed from 2018-2025 as a loss, his tournament win percentage is the highest in the history of the game.
- When he goes into a tournament, he on average reaches the semi-finals (average place of 3,24)
- Player with the most official and unofficial World Championships
- Participated in 9 consecutive World Championships, won 3, has an average place of 4,39 and win rate of 33,33%
- Most Premier Tournaments wins with top Korean participation by far (tied with Maru)
- Most Premier Tournament wins overall by far
- One of two players (Mvp being the other) to achieve the Triple Crown twice
- Serral has a positive match record versus every pro he played regularly, including all relevant GOAT contenders from his time: Dark, Cure, GuMiho, herO, Solar, Maru, ByuN, Classic, Bunny, Stats, soO, INnoVation, Rogue, Trap, Zest, Reynor, Clem and MaxPax. Dark, Rogue and Clem are the only 3 players that achieved to put Serral below a 60% win rate versus them.
Dark -10:6:1- 58,8%
Cure -24:2:1- 88,9%
GuMiho -11:4:0- 73,3%
herO -10:3:0- 76,9%
Solar -18:7:1- 69,2%
Maru -19:4:2- 76,0%
ByuN -14:6-0- 70,0%
Classic -12:3-0- 80,0%
Bunny -9:2:0- 81,8%
Stats -9:4:0- 69,2%
soO -8:4:0- 66,7%
Innovation -16:8:0- 66,7%
Rogue -8:7:0- 53,3%
Trap -14:3:0- 82,4%
Zest -10:5:0- 66,7%
Reynor -34-15:0- 69,4%
MaxPax -21:7:0- 75,0%
Clem -32:23:0- 58,2%
Charoisaur, was it you that I was in agreement with that Serral's numbers of course would go down if we put all prime players together but that he'd most likely be on top in the end? I can't remember if it was you or someone else.
|
As for GSL is not harder to win than Blizzcon before 2020, it's like WCG SK is harder then WCG itself.
I forgot for a moment that you probably meant BW and not WC3. For WC3 that would be a hilarious statement considering that Korea only won WCG once with Remind in 2010, when the tournament was already quite downsized
|
Northern Ireland25258 Posts
Brb gotta bump the Innovation GOAT thread too
|
Northern Ireland25258 Posts
On July 27 2025 16:53 ZombieGrub wrote:Show nested quote +On July 27 2025 16:26 dedede wrote:Oh yeah because it just doesn’t make sense to some people call someone the greatest of all time for dominating during a weak era (2022–2025), and just makes sense to the other people believe being the best right now with being the greatest of all time or buy so deeply into the ESL narrative as if they’re the ones officially crowning the GOAT. Btw, I watch tennis, soccer, and basketball, and I’ve never seen any tournament organizer itself push the GOAT narrative this hard as if they are the official authority. I’ve also never seen a group of hosts or casters show such obvious bias in any other sport, lol. I guess as the SC2 scene declines, neither the players nor the casters/hosts are really ‘pros’ anymore, so they don’t feel the need to act professional You debate on-topic until you decide to be either straight-up aggressive or passive-aggressive (a smiley? Really?) to casters rather than bring up an actual interesting conversation in good faith on whether the GOAT subject *is* professional or not. For my take on it, esports casting and production is just different. There's lots of things that esports productions would not do compared to traditional productions, and I love that. I personally don't use the GOAT terminology much at all but I've also never looked at my co-casters (or the production with the graphics, social media, etc) as unprofessional for bringing it into the discussion. If there are others who have such strong opinions, it hasn't reached anyone. So, it seems the community is generally okay with it and doesn't feel the need to take potshots. I'll add a more on-topic thing here which is that I do think Serral is the greatest of all time, but I understand the Maru argument. At this point most (all?) players even point to Serral. I also don't think it's that serious and it does breed one too many jerks with how serious some people do take it. Fun BTS stuff from EWC: In an interview with Rogue, it was asked who he thought was GOAT and maybe, is it him? He said if Serral wins, Serral is. If Maru wins, Maru is. Rogue said he should not be in the conversation.
It isn’t even correct that traditional sports broadcasters don’t do this. There are elements of difference that are cool, for example many of the casters having personal relationships with the players that I think add flavour. But talking about GOATs? :S
Roger Federer in tennis, before the likes of Nadal and Djokovic emerged and could make him bleed. Usain Bolt in sprinting. Lionel Messi or Ronaldo in football. Any snooker tournament where Ronnie O’Sullivan plays there will be lots of focus on him being the GOAT, or at least most talented player to pick up a cue. In cycling, (Sir) Mark Cavendish being the best sprinter in road racing history, or latterly ‘is Tadej Pocacar on course to be the GOAT and supplant Eddie Merckx?’
As someone who follows a lot of regular sport pretty religiously, like come on it absolutely happens.
I think its entirely reasonable to dislike GOAT chat in general in terms of a commentary broadcast, or disagree with who is being anointed the GOAT or not and the opinions expressed.
I think it’s completely daft to be seemingly offended by it, or make out it’s way more atypically common in SC2 broadcasts than elsewhere
|
United States1869 Posts
On July 27 2025 18:20 PremoBeats wrote:
Help me out here.. you were able to lose 1 match per group stage, otherwise you are out. After that it is a single elimination knockout bracket... where did I miss the other two possible match losses when winning GSL?
What do you think about a tournament formula that encapsulates balance through map win statistics, needed wins, amount of potential losses, amount of group stages and single versus double elimination? These would be pretty hard facts that could be measured. Round robins would be a little bit harder to evaluate but I think some kind of factor could be calculated through a probabilistic model against 1 or 2 group stage tournament with quarters, semis and finals.
Yeah, bad math by me. Two is correct.
As for the model, you're going to have to take into account the stretch at the beginning of WoL where matches were bo1, the slightly strange OSL group stage and all the other instances where a tournament deviated from the standard 32 person Code S format.
It's also probably worth exploring the qualification matches as well.
|
|
|
|
|
|
EPT
