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There's no shot people are arguing blizzcons were harder to win than a gsl. Even at the tail end of the 10s, even if you count serral as the best or at worst second best player, 8 or 9 of the top 10 would be Korean.
Even before it was officially dubbed the wc, the katowice winner had a much bigger/better claim to best player in the world. The problem with the way the old wc qualifiers worked is often times the player most in form at that time would seem to miss out a lot due to lack of performances earlier in the year. Its historically been much tougher to be consistent in gsl.
I do agree though recently the gap has closed significantly because there is no longer the depth of players in Korea. But even at ewc most of the top bracket was Korean despite Clem and serral playing in grands
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On August 25 2024 03:06 Moonerz wrote:
There's no shot people are arguing blizzcons were harder to win than a gsl. Even at the tail end of the 10s, even if you count serral as the best or at worst second best player, 8 or 9 of the top 10 would be Korean.
Even before it was officially dubbed the wc, the katowice winner had a much bigger/better claim to best player in the world. The problem with the way the old wc qualifiers worked is often times the player most in form at that time would seem to miss out a lot due to lack of performances earlier in the year. Its historically been much tougher to be consistent in gsl.
I do agree though recently the gap has closed significantly because there is no longer the depth of players in Korea. But even at ewc most of the top bracket was Korean despite Clem and serral playing in grands
BlizzCon was easily the hardest tournament to win. For one, it was the tournament with the highest stakes and the most punishing format, but the qualification alone by nature forced players to be great in GSL over the entire year. Combined with a much tenser atmosphere compared to the GSL Studios, BlizzCon was a monster to win.
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Northern Ireland26225 Posts
On August 25 2024 03:06 Moonerz wrote:
There's no shot people are arguing blizzcons were harder to win than a gsl. Even at the tail end of the 10s, even if you count serral as the best or at worst second best player, 8 or 9 of the top 10 would be Korean.
Even before it was officially dubbed the wc, the katowice winner had a much bigger/better claim to best player in the world. The problem with the way the old wc qualifiers worked is often times the player most in form at that time would seem to miss out a lot due to lack of performances earlier in the year. Its historically been much tougher to be consistent in gsl.
I do agree though recently the gap has closed significantly because there is no longer the depth of players in Korea. But even at ewc most of the top bracket was Korean despite Clem and serral playing in grands
So they should have performed better earlier in the year then? It’s part of the difficulty of winning a WC. You have to deliver over a whole year, and bring it on a weekend
Just as part of the difficulty of winning a GSL is keeping your form up over a long-form tournament that is formatted differently.
Personally I feel it worked best when Katowice and Blizzcon had quite separate niches, and ran together. Kato you got a field of depth, with whoever was running hot, got in through qualifiers etc. Blizzcon became a culimination of regional performance feeding into the best players from each area facing off.
Different challenges with quite distinct flavours. Another aspect of circuit changes I’m not a huge fan of. Katowice became more like Blizzcon, but then the EWC did the same thing again. So you now have the two mega tournaments having a lot of their field regionally split and based on circuit performance, rather than one that focused that way, and the other being more determined by form and with more open qualification shots.
Is mean it harder to win an Olympic Gold in an athletics event, or one in the biennial World Champs? Which is the greater achievement? It’s kinda hard to weigh. The Olympics isn’t always the best of the best, you may be the 5th best athlete in a qualifying year in the world, but if you’re also the 5th best in your nation you might not go. But it’s only every 4 years you’ve got a shot, versus every 2.
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Ok so if we ranked the top 16 players each year blizzcon would have had maybe 8 or 10 max. I fail to see how that is more impressive than winning gsl besides the namesake of world championship. No doubt the format led to many legendary moments with older players etc being able to make a run.
The year long qualification points favors players with a shallow scene. Even if you played kinda poorly in eu/na you're not really going to run into players for the most part who could challenge the top players until the quarters.
As far as the Olympics go I will just compare it to world cyber games. We all know the qualification tourney in Korea is significantly harder than winning the event itself, though obviously less prestigious.
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On August 25 2024 06:19 Balnazza wrote:Show nested quote +On August 25 2024 03:06 Moonerz wrote:
There's no shot people are arguing blizzcons were harder to win than a gsl. Even at the tail end of the 10s, even if you count serral as the best or at worst second best player, 8 or 9 of the top 10 would be Korean.
Even before it was officially dubbed the wc, the katowice winner had a much bigger/better claim to best player in the world. The problem with the way the old wc qualifiers worked is often times the player most in form at that time would seem to miss out a lot due to lack of performances earlier in the year. Its historically been much tougher to be consistent in gsl.
I do agree though recently the gap has closed significantly because there is no longer the depth of players in Korea. But even at ewc most of the top bracket was Korean despite Clem and serral playing in grands BlizzCon was easily the hardest tournament to win. For one, it was the tournament with the highest stakes and the most punishing format, but the qualification alone by nature forced players to be great in GSL over the entire year. Combined with a much tenser atmosphere compared to the GSL Studios, BlizzCon was a monster to win.
Blizzcon was way easier to win than GSL before the rise of Serral/Reynor/Clem. All you have to do is look at how much better non-Koreans and the Koreans that left Korea did in it compared to GSL. Koreans would get bopped over and over in GSL and move to NA and get top 8/4 in Blizzcon by winning a single bo3 against a GSL Korean due to the way seeding and brackets worked back then.
It was really dumb.
The only thing that elevates Serral's Blizzcon is that he was a foreigner and that he actually got nearly the hardest path possible besides avoiding Maru/TY. If he had a typical Blizzcon path it would have been worth no where near a GSL. With his path being what it was I'd call his Blizzcon equal to or slightly better than a 2018 GSL but that still leaves Maru well on top for 2018 because 2 more GSLs and WESG are way better than the other stuff Serral won that year.
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On August 25 2024 14:28 JJH777 wrote:Show nested quote +On August 25 2024 06:19 Balnazza wrote:On August 25 2024 03:06 Moonerz wrote:
There's no shot people are arguing blizzcons were harder to win than a gsl. Even at the tail end of the 10s, even if you count serral as the best or at worst second best player, 8 or 9 of the top 10 would be Korean.
Even before it was officially dubbed the wc, the katowice winner had a much bigger/better claim to best player in the world. The problem with the way the old wc qualifiers worked is often times the player most in form at that time would seem to miss out a lot due to lack of performances earlier in the year. Its historically been much tougher to be consistent in gsl.
I do agree though recently the gap has closed significantly because there is no longer the depth of players in Korea. But even at ewc most of the top bracket was Korean despite Clem and serral playing in grands BlizzCon was easily the hardest tournament to win. For one, it was the tournament with the highest stakes and the most punishing format, but the qualification alone by nature forced players to be great in GSL over the entire year. Combined with a much tenser atmosphere compared to the GSL Studios, BlizzCon was a monster to win. Blizzcon was way easier to win than GSL before the rise of Serral/Reynor/Clem. All you have to do is look at how much better non-Koreans and the Koreans that left Korea did in it compared to GSL. Koreans would get bopped over and over in GSL and move to NA and get top 8/4 in Blizzcon by winning a single bo3 against a GSL Korean due to the way seeding and brackets worked back then. It was really dumb. The only thing that elevates Serral's Blizzcon is that he was a foreigner and that he actually got nearly the hardest path possible besides avoiding Maru/TY. If he had a typical Blizzcon path it would have been worth no where near a GSL. With his path being what it was I'd call his Blizzcon equal to or slightly better than a 2018 GSL but that still leaves Maru well on top for 2018 because 2 more GSLs and WESG are way better than the other stuff Serral won that year.
Originally, you had to play a Single-Elim Bracket of Bo5s, with the first round not even being on BlizzCon. So your entire year depended on one Bo5 to even make it to the big event. Then you had to play 2x Bo5s and 1x Bo7 in one weekend on the biggest stage SC2 has to offer against the Top Players of that year. That alone makes it the hardest one to win.
It got slightly easier ofc when they switched out the first round for a Group Stage, but I would say at that point the rest of the world got better already. Not saying pre-Serral "The West was equal to Korea", clearly not, but if you look at BlizzCon 2017: SpeCial and Elazer made it out of the Group Stage, while heavy-hitters of Korea like Stats and Dark did not. The year before, even three foreigners made it out.
I would argue that at that point, everything that wasn't S-Tier in Korea already became mortal for foreigners.
And in 2018...since the "path" is so interesting for you, Marus paths through his three GSLs was mostly rather easy. Including even wins over foreigners. So really, his GSLs are mostly noteworthy for the playoffs, the rest was kinda "meh". Again, as always: Not saying winning three in a year isn't impressive, it clearly is considering only Mvp had kinda done it if I recall correctly (but in much different circumstances). But if you want to be nitpicky, then do it both ways.
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On August 25 2024 19:46 Balnazza wrote:Show nested quote +On August 25 2024 14:28 JJH777 wrote:On August 25 2024 06:19 Balnazza wrote:On August 25 2024 03:06 Moonerz wrote:
There's no shot people are arguing blizzcons were harder to win than a gsl. Even at the tail end of the 10s, even if you count serral as the best or at worst second best player, 8 or 9 of the top 10 would be Korean.
Even before it was officially dubbed the wc, the katowice winner had a much bigger/better claim to best player in the world. The problem with the way the old wc qualifiers worked is often times the player most in form at that time would seem to miss out a lot due to lack of performances earlier in the year. Its historically been much tougher to be consistent in gsl.
I do agree though recently the gap has closed significantly because there is no longer the depth of players in Korea. But even at ewc most of the top bracket was Korean despite Clem and serral playing in grands BlizzCon was easily the hardest tournament to win. For one, it was the tournament with the highest stakes and the most punishing format, but the qualification alone by nature forced players to be great in GSL over the entire year. Combined with a much tenser atmosphere compared to the GSL Studios, BlizzCon was a monster to win. Blizzcon was way easier to win than GSL before the rise of Serral/Reynor/Clem. All you have to do is look at how much better non-Koreans and the Koreans that left Korea did in it compared to GSL. Koreans would get bopped over and over in GSL and move to NA and get top 8/4 in Blizzcon by winning a single bo3 against a GSL Korean due to the way seeding and brackets worked back then. It was really dumb. The only thing that elevates Serral's Blizzcon is that he was a foreigner and that he actually got nearly the hardest path possible besides avoiding Maru/TY. If he had a typical Blizzcon path it would have been worth no where near a GSL. With his path being what it was I'd call his Blizzcon equal to or slightly better than a 2018 GSL but that still leaves Maru well on top for 2018 because 2 more GSLs and WESG are way better than the other stuff Serral won that year. Originally, you had to play a Single-Elim Bracket of Bo5s, with the first round not even being on BlizzCon. So your entire year depended on one Bo5 to even make it to the big event. Then you had to play 2x Bo5s and 1x Bo7 in one weekend on the biggest stage SC2 has to offer against the Top Players of that year. That alone makes it the hardest one to win. It got slightly easier ofc when they switched out the first round for a Group Stage, but I would say at that point the rest of the world got better already. Not saying pre-Serral "The West was equal to Korea", clearly not, but if you look at BlizzCon 2017: SpeCial and Elazer made it out of the Group Stage, while heavy-hitters of Korea like Stats and Dark did not. The year before, even three foreigners made it out. I would argue that at that point, everything that wasn't S-Tier in Korea already became mortal for foreigners. And in 2018...since the "path" is so interesting for you, Marus paths through his three GSLs was mostly rather easy. Including even wins over foreigners. So really, his GSLs are mostly noteworthy for the playoffs, the rest was kinda "meh". Again, as always: Not saying winning three in a year isn't impressive, it clearly is considering only Mvp had kinda done it if I recall correctly (but in much different circumstances). But if you want to be nitpicky, then do it both ways.
Just to followup on the MVP note, only Maru won 3 GSLs within the same calendar year. MVP won 2 in 2011 year, and 3 in 16 months. Nestea won 2 in 2011, and won 3 in 8 months.
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On August 25 2024 19:46 Balnazza wrote:Show nested quote +On August 25 2024 14:28 JJH777 wrote:On August 25 2024 06:19 Balnazza wrote:On August 25 2024 03:06 Moonerz wrote:
There's no shot people are arguing blizzcons were harder to win than a gsl. Even at the tail end of the 10s, even if you count serral as the best or at worst second best player, 8 or 9 of the top 10 would be Korean.
Even before it was officially dubbed the wc, the katowice winner had a much bigger/better claim to best player in the world. The problem with the way the old wc qualifiers worked is often times the player most in form at that time would seem to miss out a lot due to lack of performances earlier in the year. Its historically been much tougher to be consistent in gsl.
I do agree though recently the gap has closed significantly because there is no longer the depth of players in Korea. But even at ewc most of the top bracket was Korean despite Clem and serral playing in grands BlizzCon was easily the hardest tournament to win. For one, it was the tournament with the highest stakes and the most punishing format, but the qualification alone by nature forced players to be great in GSL over the entire year. Combined with a much tenser atmosphere compared to the GSL Studios, BlizzCon was a monster to win. Blizzcon was way easier to win than GSL before the rise of Serral/Reynor/Clem. All you have to do is look at how much better non-Koreans and the Koreans that left Korea did in it compared to GSL. Koreans would get bopped over and over in GSL and move to NA and get top 8/4 in Blizzcon by winning a single bo3 against a GSL Korean due to the way seeding and brackets worked back then. It was really dumb. The only thing that elevates Serral's Blizzcon is that he was a foreigner and that he actually got nearly the hardest path possible besides avoiding Maru/TY. If he had a typical Blizzcon path it would have been worth no where near a GSL. With his path being what it was I'd call his Blizzcon equal to or slightly better than a 2018 GSL but that still leaves Maru well on top for 2018 because 2 more GSLs and WESG are way better than the other stuff Serral won that year. Originally, you had to play a Single-Elim Bracket of Bo5s, with the first round not even being on BlizzCon. So your entire year depended on one Bo5 to even make it to the big event. Then you had to play 2x Bo5s and 1x Bo7 in one weekend on the biggest stage SC2 has to offer against the Top Players of that year. That alone makes it the hardest one to win. It got slightly easier ofc when they switched out the first round for a Group Stage, but I would say at that point the rest of the world got better already. Not saying pre-Serral "The West was equal to Korea", clearly not, but if you look at BlizzCon 2017: SpeCial and Elazer made it out of the Group Stage, while heavy-hitters of Korea like Stats and Dark did not. The year before, even three foreigners made it out. I would argue that at that point, everything that wasn't S-Tier in Korea already became mortal for foreigners. And in 2018...since the "path" is so interesting for you, Marus paths through his three GSLs was mostly rather easy. Including even wins over foreigners. So really, his GSLs are mostly noteworthy for the playoffs, the rest was kinda "meh". Again, as always: Not saying winning three in a year isn't impressive, it clearly is considering only Mvp had kinda done it if I recall correctly (but in much different circumstances). But if you want to be nitpicky, then do it both ways.
Wait what? Blizzcon was harder than GSL because it included foreigners but Maru had a comparatively easy path to win GSL because he was facing foreigners? Which one is it now, does the inclusion of foreigners make the tournament harder or easier?
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On August 25 2024 20:17 Charoisaur wrote:Show nested quote +On August 25 2024 19:46 Balnazza wrote:On August 25 2024 14:28 JJH777 wrote:On August 25 2024 06:19 Balnazza wrote:On August 25 2024 03:06 Moonerz wrote:
There's no shot people are arguing blizzcons were harder to win than a gsl. Even at the tail end of the 10s, even if you count serral as the best or at worst second best player, 8 or 9 of the top 10 would be Korean.
Even before it was officially dubbed the wc, the katowice winner had a much bigger/better claim to best player in the world. The problem with the way the old wc qualifiers worked is often times the player most in form at that time would seem to miss out a lot due to lack of performances earlier in the year. Its historically been much tougher to be consistent in gsl.
I do agree though recently the gap has closed significantly because there is no longer the depth of players in Korea. But even at ewc most of the top bracket was Korean despite Clem and serral playing in grands BlizzCon was easily the hardest tournament to win. For one, it was the tournament with the highest stakes and the most punishing format, but the qualification alone by nature forced players to be great in GSL over the entire year. Combined with a much tenser atmosphere compared to the GSL Studios, BlizzCon was a monster to win. Blizzcon was way easier to win than GSL before the rise of Serral/Reynor/Clem. All you have to do is look at how much better non-Koreans and the Koreans that left Korea did in it compared to GSL. Koreans would get bopped over and over in GSL and move to NA and get top 8/4 in Blizzcon by winning a single bo3 against a GSL Korean due to the way seeding and brackets worked back then. It was really dumb. The only thing that elevates Serral's Blizzcon is that he was a foreigner and that he actually got nearly the hardest path possible besides avoiding Maru/TY. If he had a typical Blizzcon path it would have been worth no where near a GSL. With his path being what it was I'd call his Blizzcon equal to or slightly better than a 2018 GSL but that still leaves Maru well on top for 2018 because 2 more GSLs and WESG are way better than the other stuff Serral won that year. Originally, you had to play a Single-Elim Bracket of Bo5s, with the first round not even being on BlizzCon. So your entire year depended on one Bo5 to even make it to the big event. Then you had to play 2x Bo5s and 1x Bo7 in one weekend on the biggest stage SC2 has to offer against the Top Players of that year. That alone makes it the hardest one to win. It got slightly easier ofc when they switched out the first round for a Group Stage, but I would say at that point the rest of the world got better already. Not saying pre-Serral "The West was equal to Korea", clearly not, but if you look at BlizzCon 2017: SpeCial and Elazer made it out of the Group Stage, while heavy-hitters of Korea like Stats and Dark did not. The year before, even three foreigners made it out. I would argue that at that point, everything that wasn't S-Tier in Korea already became mortal for foreigners. And in 2018...since the "path" is so interesting for you, Marus paths through his three GSLs was mostly rather easy. Including even wins over foreigners. So really, his GSLs are mostly noteworthy for the playoffs, the rest was kinda "meh". Again, as always: Not saying winning three in a year isn't impressive, it clearly is considering only Mvp had kinda done it if I recall correctly (but in much different circumstances). But if you want to be nitpicky, then do it both ways. Wait what? Blizzcon was harder than GSL because it included foreigners but Maru had a comparatively easy path to win GSL because he was facing foreigners? Which one is it now, does the inclusion of foreigners make the tournament harder or easier?
I never said BlizzCon is harder because it includes foreigners, what? I just said it including foreigners was not an issue in laters years, especially not 2016-2018.
However, if your stance is that foreigners are giga-trash and every tournament becomes invalid because they are in it and not just the GSL-SuperElite, then...sorry, atleast one of Marus GSL was free, not worth mentioning.
That's the problem with you two: You get extremly nitpicky with everything concerning foreigners in general and Serral in particular. Everything needs to be analyzed down to each map, every "imbalanced mappol" or "Lucky path" needs to be mentioned...but GSL suddenly is always this monolith, that per default means it is the greatest feat known to mankind to win it and how dare you even look into it?
If you want to be pedantic, be it fairly. Which includes Maru winning the first 18'GSL on his third life, meaning in every iteration of BlizzCon he would have already been out. And his third win included wins over foreigners, which if you say that they're not noteworthy in 2018, then therefore Maru had a super-easy GSL.
You can't have the one without the other, sorry.
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United States33508 Posts
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Should have future proofed these rankings and put Serral at #1, when this thread was created Maru might have been the goat (debatable) but Serral was still winning events during this time whereas Maru was not and with this latest tournament victory Serral is irrefutablly the goat, so the arguments and discussions can stop now
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United States1906 Posts
On July 26 2025 04:40 Zurka wrote:
Should have future proofed these rankings and put Serral at #1, when this thread was created Maru might have been the goat (debatable) but Serral was still winning events during this time whereas Maru was not and with this latest tournament victory Serral is irrefutablly the goat, so the arguments and discussions can stop now
Thank you for telling me when to talk, what to write and what to think,
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France12906 Posts
On July 26 2025 04:40 Zurka wrote:
Should have future proofed these rankings and put Serral at #1, when this thread was created Maru might have been the goat (debatable) but Serral was still winning events during this time whereas Maru was not and with this latest tournament victory Serral is irrefutablly the goat, so the arguments and discussions can stop now
I mean the fact that Maru is still in contention despite zerg being the strongest race since 2017 is enough for him to have a shot at #1
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Maru’s biggest claim comes from his OSL/SSL/Proleague MVP performances during the KeSPA era and his WESG plus four GSL titles in 2018. While he did choke at World Championships (twice losing 2–3 to Rogue and also to Reynor 😡), his overall resume during SC2’s prime years is just the greatest, even now when the scene is just mostly dead when the same people playing each others all the time when he is far from his best form he still somehow got into ro8. I guess he only plays for money now, I think we won’t ever see the motivated Terran prince Maru again.
Also with ESL pushing the “Serral as GOAT” narrative since 2018 (they clearly wanted to create a star—why they didn’t choose Reynor is beyond me), it’s no surprise that a lot of people with zero knowledge of SC2 esports history watch the game when serral is the best right now, hear the casters shouting “GOAT,” and completely buy into that storyline. He is the best player right now, but how can people who don’t know the sc2 esports history throw around the term “all time”?
The reason I always got annoyed listening to those ESL casters is that they treat Serral differently purely because of his nationality. If Serral were just some Korean player named Kim, the number of fanboys and biased casters would drop to 1%.
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On July 26 2025 07:00 dedede wrote:
Maru’s biggest claim comes from his OSL/SSL/Proleague MVP performances during the KeSPA era and his WESG plus four GSL titles in 2018. While he did choke at World Championships (twice losing 2–3 to Rogue and also to Reynor 😡), his overall resume during SC2’s prime years is just the greatest, even now when the scene is just mostly dead when the same people playing each others all the time when he is far from his best form he still somehow got into ro8. I guess he only plays for money now, I think we won’t ever see the motivated Terran prince Maru again.
Also with ESL pushing the “Serral as GOAT” narrative since 2018 (they clearly wanted to create a star—why they didn’t choose Reynor is beyond me), it’s no surprise that a lot of people with zero knowledge of SC2 esports history watch the game when serral is the best right now, hear the casters shouting “GOAT,” and completely buy into that storyline. He is the best player right now, but how can people who don’t know the sc2 esports history throw around the term “all time”?
The reason I always got annoyed listening to those ESL casters is that they treat Serral differently purely because of his nationality. If Serral were just some Korean player named Kim, the number of fanboys and biased casters would drop to 1%.
"People don't know the history of SC2" --> claims that Maru is somehow the best player of the Kespa-era...whut?
"They wanted a star so they picked Serral, why not Reynor?" --> Because Serral did the impossible and beat the Koreans in the game they couldn't lose. And then they kept doing it. A lot of foreigners have gotten victories over Koreans, but no one ever outclassed them like Serral. Honestly, Serral vs. Maru last year was just silly, Maru literally rolled over every time they've met. And herO, the 2nd best Korean, didn't do much better either tbh. Or Dark for that matter...
"They treat Serral differently because of his nationality" --> so do you. If he was a Korean, you would easily buy into him being the GOAT.
You do know it is okay to say "I only like Terrans and don't like watching Zerg and/or I don't like Serral" and be done with it, right? You liking or disliking a player doesn't have to be based on facts. It just becomes really silly if you try to boost your opinion on some very shaky "facts" and elitism...
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On July 26 2025 07:15 Balnazza wrote:Show nested quote +On July 26 2025 07:00 dedede wrote:
Maru’s biggest claim comes from his OSL/SSL/Proleague MVP performances during the KeSPA era and his WESG plus four GSL titles in 2018. While he did choke at World Championships (twice losing 2–3 to Rogue and also to Reynor 😡), his overall resume during SC2’s prime years is just the greatest, even now when the scene is just mostly dead when the same people playing each others all the time when he is far from his best form he still somehow got into ro8. I guess he only plays for money now, I think we won’t ever see the motivated Terran prince Maru again.
Also with ESL pushing the “Serral as GOAT” narrative since 2018 (they clearly wanted to create a star—why they didn’t choose Reynor is beyond me), it’s no surprise that a lot of people with zero knowledge of SC2 esports history watch the game when serral is the best right now, hear the casters shouting “GOAT,” and completely buy into that storyline. He is the best player right now, but how can people who don’t know the sc2 esports history throw around the term “all time”?
The reason I always got annoyed listening to those ESL casters is that they treat Serral differently purely because of his nationality. If Serral were just some Korean player named Kim, the number of fanboys and biased casters would drop to 1%. "People don't know the history of SC2" --> claims that Maru is somehow the best player of the Kespa-era...whut? "They wanted a star so they picked Serral, why not Reynor?" --> Because Serral did the impossible and beat the Koreans in the game they couldn't lose. And then they kept doing it. A lot of foreigners have gotten victories over Koreans, but no one ever outclassed them like Serral. Honestly, Serral vs. Maru last year was just silly, Maru literally rolled over every time they've met. And herO, the 2nd best Korean, didn't do much better either tbh. Or Dark for that matter... "They treat Serral differently because of his nationality" --> so do you. If he was a Korean, you would easily buy into him being the GOAT. You do know it is okay to say "I only like Terrans and don't like watching Zerg and/or I don't like Serral" and be done with it, right? You liking or disliking a player doesn't have to be based on facts. It just becomes really silly if you try to boost your opinion on some very shaky "facts" and elitism...
"claims that Maru is somehow the best player of the Kespa-era...whut?"
Can you not read? I said his overall resume during SC2’s prime years is just the greatest, first GSL player, OSL in 2013, SSL in 2015, Proleague MVP 2015/2016, WESG + 4GSLs in 2018/2019, other premium wins in the less competitive time after 2020, always being a top players even winning Dreamhack after 15 years of progamer career - This resume as a whole its the greatest.
"Because Serral did the impossible and beat the Koreans in the game they couldn't lose"
So? Because he beat Koreans so he deserves all the bias? Why? Do you care if a korean player beating other korean players?? This is just mindblowing that those ESL casters treat him differently just because he is not korean.
"If he was a Korean, you would easily buy into him being the GOAT"
NO. If player Kim farmed in WCS circuits and won 1 Blizzcon then some WC after 2020, I would NOT consider him as the GOAT. Wanna bet if this is honest thoughts? It's you EU fanboys being ridiculously defensive because he is a not Korean.
"You liking or disliking a player doesn't have to be based on facts"
You know what? I dislike the ridiculous fandom only because of one's nationality starting in 2018 and ridiculous fanboys/biased casters behaviors including sending shit message to Maru's chat, shitposting when Dark won WCS, casters being biased non-stop during commentating for YEARS, calling serral goat when he was far away from it, all those "facts" (i.e. things that actually happened) made me dislike it. And all the things including Maru's achievement/SC2 esports history/patches I stated are facts, you can name one thing is wrong if you can find any.
Edit: Oh yeah, another thing I dislike is that you fanboys always trying to discount the golden era of SC2 esports, disrespecting player's achievements in HOTS, making up history/balance, being irresponsible for your own words, and lacking the basic cognitive abilities on h2h record (Wow my record against Maru is freaking perfect in 2013-2017, 0 map losses, 0 game losses, because I can't qualify for IEM Taipei or any WCS that maru played in; But this is super convinient once Maru is not as good as before after 13 years of playing, I can beat him so that my h2h record would be so so nice, all thanks to those 0 losses I had when I sucked). So no, I don't dislike players, I dislike fanboys and casters (who are supposed to be not biased) saying dumb things either congenitally or intentially.
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On July 26 2025 07:37 dedede wrote:Show nested quote +On July 26 2025 07:15 Balnazza wrote:On July 26 2025 07:00 dedede wrote:
Maru’s biggest claim comes from his OSL/SSL/Proleague MVP performances during the KeSPA era and his WESG plus four GSL titles in 2018. While he did choke at World Championships (twice losing 2–3 to Rogue and also to Reynor 😡), his overall resume during SC2’s prime years is just the greatest, even now when the scene is just mostly dead when the same people playing each others all the time when he is far from his best form he still somehow got into ro8. I guess he only plays for money now, I think we won’t ever see the motivated Terran prince Maru again.
Also with ESL pushing the “Serral as GOAT” narrative since 2018 (they clearly wanted to create a star—why they didn’t choose Reynor is beyond me), it’s no surprise that a lot of people with zero knowledge of SC2 esports history watch the game when serral is the best right now, hear the casters shouting “GOAT,” and completely buy into that storyline. He is the best player right now, but how can people who don’t know the sc2 esports history throw around the term “all time”?
The reason I always got annoyed listening to those ESL casters is that they treat Serral differently purely because of his nationality. If Serral were just some Korean player named Kim, the number of fanboys and biased casters would drop to 1%. "People don't know the history of SC2" --> claims that Maru is somehow the best player of the Kespa-era...whut? "They wanted a star so they picked Serral, why not Reynor?" --> Because Serral did the impossible and beat the Koreans in the game they couldn't lose. And then they kept doing it. A lot of foreigners have gotten victories over Koreans, but no one ever outclassed them like Serral. Honestly, Serral vs. Maru last year was just silly, Maru literally rolled over every time they've met. And herO, the 2nd best Korean, didn't do much better either tbh. Or Dark for that matter... "They treat Serral differently because of his nationality" --> so do you. If he was a Korean, you would easily buy into him being the GOAT. You do know it is okay to say "I only like Terrans and don't like watching Zerg and/or I don't like Serral" and be done with it, right? You liking or disliking a player doesn't have to be based on facts. It just becomes really silly if you try to boost your opinion on some very shaky "facts" and elitism... Can you not read? I said his overall resume during SC2’s prime years is just the greatest, first GSL player, OSL in 2013, SSL in 2015, Proleague MVP 2015/2016, WESG + 4GSLs in 2018/2019, other premium wins in the less competitive time after 2020, always being a top players even winning Dreamhack after 15 years of progamer career - This resume as a whole its the greatest. Show nested quote +"Because Serral did the impossible and beat the Koreans in the game they couldn't lose" So? Because he beat Koreans so he deserves all the bias? Why? Do you care if a korean player beating other korean players?? This is just mindblowing that those ESL casters treat him differently just because he is not korean. NO. If player Kim farmed in WCS circuits and won 1 Blizzcon then some WC after 2020, I would NOT consider him as the GOAT. Wanna bet if this is honest thoughts? It's you EU fanboys being ridiculously defensive because he is a not Korean. You know what? I dislike the ridiculous fandom only because of one's nationality starting in 2018 and ridiculous fanboys/biased casters behaviors including sending shit message to Maru's chat, shitposting when Dark won WCS, casters being biased non-stop during commentating for YEARS, calling serral goat when he was far away from it, all those "facts" (i.e. things that actually happened) made me dislike it. And all the things including Maru's achievement/SC2 esports history/patches I stated are facts, you can name one thing is wrong if you can find any. Edit: Oh yeah, another thing I dislike is that you fanboys always trying to discount the golden era of SC2 esports, disrespecting player's achievements in HOTS, making up history/balance, being irresponsible for your own words, and lacking the basic cognitive abilities on h2h record (Wow my record against Maru is freaking perfect in 2013-2017, 0 map losses, 0 game losses, because I can't qualify for IEM Taipei or any WCS that maru played in; But this is super convinient once Maru is not as good as before after 13 years of playing, I can beat him so that my h2h record would be so so nice, all thanks to those 0 losses I had when I sucked). So no, I don't dislike players, I dislike fanboys and casters (who are supposed to be not biased) saying dumb things either congenitally or intentially.
Nationality doesn't mean anything. What matters is the environment the players grew up in. Korean people are not naturally gifted in Starcraft because they are Korean - they are good because Korea has by far the most complete Esports infrastructure to find and train Esports talents to be top players. They practice with top players all the time. They have coaches and support teams to help them figure out meta.
Serral's achievement is impressive not because he's from Finland, but because he did it without training in Korean environment. This is massive disadvantage that almost all foreign players had to face. There are flash of brilliant foreigners that does well against Koreans for brief period of time, Huk, Stephano, Neeb, Reynor, but they all got "figured out" very quickly once Koreans started to take them seriously, studied and and prepared against them, they fell off and never got as dominant as before. Reynor is still competitive at top level after all these years but he was never dominant against Koreans, he's h2h record against many Koreans are still on the losing side, at best 50-50 most of the time.
You desperately tried to use Serral's record pre 2017 against him, but it holds little value because Serral only finished school and turned pro in 2017. Of course a student that plays starcraft part time can't compete with Korean pros, any sensible person can see that. But once he went pro he climbed to top of the world in mere a year later, beating every Koreans on the way, and that's the year that most of top Korean players are still active, and the year Maru got majority of his career achievement.
And here's what separated Serral from Reynor and all other foreigners: once he got to the top, he stayed there, he never got "figured out", despite every single Korean player knows he's the biggest favorite to win any international tournaments he participates since 2018. They prepare against him, they tried to snipe him with new meta builds, they threw everything at him, and 7 years later, Serral still won the most tournaments, held a positive and mostly dominant h2h record against every single Korean players. And yes, it's infinitely more impressive than if he's just another Korean beating other Koreans. This is equivalent to someone that never plays in NBA destroys team USA in international games, and does so consistently for years. One man against the whole system, and somehow he won.
If you can't see such simple logic and still wondering "damn, I don't know why people making a big deal out of Serral, is it because he's from Finland? Why not Reynor? Was Finland people just more likable by ESL casters?" that just shows a complete lack of grasp of reality on your side.
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LOL this bump is godly. Never change, TL.
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On July 26 2025 11:56 Nasigil1 wrote:Show nested quote +On July 26 2025 07:37 dedede wrote:On July 26 2025 07:15 Balnazza wrote:On July 26 2025 07:00 dedede wrote:
Maru’s biggest claim comes from his OSL/SSL/Proleague MVP performances during the KeSPA era and his WESG plus four GSL titles in 2018. While he did choke at World Championships (twice losing 2–3 to Rogue and also to Reynor 😡), his overall resume during SC2’s prime years is just the greatest, even now when the scene is just mostly dead when the same people playing each others all the time when he is far from his best form he still somehow got into ro8. I guess he only plays for money now, I think we won’t ever see the motivated Terran prince Maru again.
Also with ESL pushing the “Serral as GOAT” narrative since 2018 (they clearly wanted to create a star—why they didn’t choose Reynor is beyond me), it’s no surprise that a lot of people with zero knowledge of SC2 esports history watch the game when serral is the best right now, hear the casters shouting “GOAT,” and completely buy into that storyline. He is the best player right now, but how can people who don’t know the sc2 esports history throw around the term “all time”?
The reason I always got annoyed listening to those ESL casters is that they treat Serral differently purely because of his nationality. If Serral were just some Korean player named Kim, the number of fanboys and biased casters would drop to 1%. "People don't know the history of SC2" --> claims that Maru is somehow the best player of the Kespa-era...whut? "They wanted a star so they picked Serral, why not Reynor?" --> Because Serral did the impossible and beat the Koreans in the game they couldn't lose. And then they kept doing it. A lot of foreigners have gotten victories over Koreans, but no one ever outclassed them like Serral. Honestly, Serral vs. Maru last year was just silly, Maru literally rolled over every time they've met. And herO, the 2nd best Korean, didn't do much better either tbh. Or Dark for that matter... "They treat Serral differently because of his nationality" --> so do you. If he was a Korean, you would easily buy into him being the GOAT. You do know it is okay to say "I only like Terrans and don't like watching Zerg and/or I don't like Serral" and be done with it, right? You liking or disliking a player doesn't have to be based on facts. It just becomes really silly if you try to boost your opinion on some very shaky "facts" and elitism... "claims that Maru is somehow the best player of the Kespa-era...whut?" Can you not read? I said his overall resume during SC2’s prime years is just the greatest, first GSL player, OSL in 2013, SSL in 2015, Proleague MVP 2015/2016, WESG + 4GSLs in 2018/2019, other premium wins in the less competitive time after 2020, always being a top players even winning Dreamhack after 15 years of progamer career - This resume as a whole its the greatest. "Because Serral did the impossible and beat the Koreans in the game they couldn't lose" So? Because he beat Koreans so he deserves all the bias? Why? Do you care if a korean player beating other korean players?? This is just mindblowing that those ESL casters treat him differently just because he is not korean. "If he was a Korean, you would easily buy into him being the GOAT" NO. If player Kim farmed in WCS circuits and won 1 Blizzcon then some WC after 2020, I would NOT consider him as the GOAT. Wanna bet if this is honest thoughts? It's you EU fanboys being ridiculously defensive because he is a not Korean. "You liking or disliking a player doesn't have to be based on facts" You know what? I dislike the ridiculous fandom only because of one's nationality starting in 2018 and ridiculous fanboys/biased casters behaviors including sending shit message to Maru's chat, shitposting when Dark won WCS, casters being biased non-stop during commentating for YEARS, calling serral goat when he was far away from it, all those "facts" (i.e. things that actually happened) made me dislike it. And all the things including Maru's achievement/SC2 esports history/patches I stated are facts, you can name one thing is wrong if you can find any. Edit: Oh yeah, another thing I dislike is that you fanboys always trying to discount the golden era of SC2 esports, disrespecting player's achievements in HOTS, making up history/balance, being irresponsible for your own words, and lacking the basic cognitive abilities on h2h record (Wow my record against Maru is freaking perfect in 2013-2017, 0 map losses, 0 game losses, because I can't qualify for IEM Taipei or any WCS that maru played in; But this is super convinient once Maru is not as good as before after 13 years of playing, I can beat him so that my h2h record would be so so nice, all thanks to those 0 losses I had when I sucked). So no, I don't dislike players, I dislike fanboys and casters (who are supposed to be not biased) saying dumb things either congenitally or intentially. Nationality doesn't mean anything. What matters is the environment the players grew up in. Korean people are not naturally gifted in Starcraft because they are Korean - they are good because Korea has by far the most complete Esports infrastructure to find and train Esports talents to be top players. They practice with top players all the time. They have coaches and support teams to help them figure out meta. Serral's achievement is impressive not because he's from Finland, but because he did it without training in Korean environment. This is massive disadvantage that almost all foreign players had to face. There are flash of brilliant foreigners that does well against Koreans for brief period of time, Huk, Stephano, Neeb, Reynor, but they all got "figured out" very quickly once Koreans started to take them seriously, studied and and prepared against them, they fell off and never got as dominant as before. Reynor is still competitive at top level after all these years but he was never dominant against Koreans, he's h2h record against many Koreans are still on the losing side, at best 50-50 most of the time. You desperately tried to use Serral's record pre 2017 against him, but it holds little value because Serral only finished school and turned pro in 2017. Of course a student that plays starcraft part time can't compete with Korean pros, any sensible person can see that. But once he went pro he climbed to top of the world in mere a year later, beating every Koreans on the way, and that's the year that most of top Korean players are still active, and the year Maru got majority of his career achievement. And here's what separated Serral from Reynor and all other foreigners: once he got to the top, he stayed there, he never got "figured out", despite every single Korean player knows he's the biggest favorite to win any international tournaments he participates since 2018. They prepare against him, they tried to snipe him with new meta builds, they threw everything at him, and 7 years later, Serral still won the most tournaments, held a positive and mostly dominant h2h record against every single Korean players. And yes, it's infinitely more impressive than if he's just another Korean beating other Koreans. This is equivalent to someone that never plays in NBA destroys team USA in international games, and does so consistently for years. One man against the whole system, and somehow he won. If you can't see such simple logic and still wondering "damn, I don't know why people making a big deal out of Serral, is it because he's from Finland? Why not Reynor? Was Finland people just more likable by ESL casters?" that just shows a complete lack of grasp of reality on your side.
I’m talking about the unfair treatment he instantly got in 2018 solely because he was non-Korean. Yes, he achieved it without training in a Korean environment, but does that really justify the overwhelming bias and excessive praise he got from casters in 2018/2019? There hasn’t been a real “system” since KeSPA disbanded in 2016, that’s exactly how ByuN rose, how Neeb and Scarlett took trophies in Korea, and how Serral, Reynor, and Clem reached the top. The commentating was just unbearable when they kept talking serral even when he wasn't playing, the fandom in production/caster layer is a crazy thing to have.
And here's what separated Serral from Reynor and all other foreigners: once he got to the top, he stayed there, he never got "figured out"
First, this is spoken from you in 2025, it's not proven in 2019, yet he still got the unfair treatment, that's the point.
You desperately tried to use Serral's record pre 2017 against him, but it holds little value because Serral only finished school and turned pro in 2017.
This is the part I just can’t buy. He was on a pro team, competing in EU tournaments, yet produced no results even against EU players back then. Neeb was still in school when he won, if you’re good enough, that’s not an excuse. The fact is, he’d been active since 2011 but achieved nothing during HotS. I use the same argument against Rogue, who didn’t accomplish enough despite playing in Proleague. Serral fans act like SC2 only began in 2018, which is hilarious because the game’s prime years were clearly 2013–2016. And honestly, how does that context even boost his resume? Does ByuN get ranked higher just because he was a one-man army in 2016?
Reynor is still competitive at top level after all these years but he was never dominant against Koreans, he's h2h record against many Koreans are still on the losing side
So what about Koreans’ records against other Koreans? Why treat them differently after the entire system collapsed if the issue isn’t nationality but infrastructure?
Head-to-head records also look different for Korean players who had to face most of the world’s top talent in Korea. Competing in a much larger pool of elite players naturally drags down their stats, that’s the whole point of scene competitiveness. Back in 2015, to win a title you might have to beat the equivalent of 3 Marus, 3 Serrals, and 3 Clems. That’s why older championships carry more weight than recent ones. The context isn’t about how a player rose “outside the system” (especially when the system was already gone by 2017, let alone 2018), it’s about how competitive the scene was and why titles from 2015 to 2025 shouldn’t all be valued the same.
So, I am saying two things (1) My personal rant about the biased treatment Serral has gotten from the fandom since 2018, largely because of his nationality (or you could argue because he was “outside the system,” though there hasn’t even been a real system for Koreans since KeSPA disbanded) (2) The scene now is 10%-20% of its former size in prime, and the argument for Maru(achieving more during a time when SC2 was much bigger) just hasn’t changed.
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On July 26 2025 07:37 dedede wrote:Show nested quote +On July 26 2025 07:15 Balnazza wrote:On July 26 2025 07:00 dedede wrote:
Maru’s biggest claim comes from his OSL/SSL/Proleague MVP performances during the KeSPA era and his WESG plus four GSL titles in 2018. While he did choke at World Championships (twice losing 2–3 to Rogue and also to Reynor 😡), his overall resume during SC2’s prime years is just the greatest, even now when the scene is just mostly dead when the same people playing each others all the time when he is far from his best form he still somehow got into ro8. I guess he only plays for money now, I think we won’t ever see the motivated Terran prince Maru again.
Also with ESL pushing the “Serral as GOAT” narrative since 2018 (they clearly wanted to create a star—why they didn’t choose Reynor is beyond me), it’s no surprise that a lot of people with zero knowledge of SC2 esports history watch the game when serral is the best right now, hear the casters shouting “GOAT,” and completely buy into that storyline. He is the best player right now, but how can people who don’t know the sc2 esports history throw around the term “all time”?
The reason I always got annoyed listening to those ESL casters is that they treat Serral differently purely because of his nationality. If Serral were just some Korean player named Kim, the number of fanboys and biased casters would drop to 1%. "People don't know the history of SC2" --> claims that Maru is somehow the best player of the Kespa-era...whut? "They wanted a star so they picked Serral, why not Reynor?" --> Because Serral did the impossible and beat the Koreans in the game they couldn't lose. And then they kept doing it. A lot of foreigners have gotten victories over Koreans, but no one ever outclassed them like Serral. Honestly, Serral vs. Maru last year was just silly, Maru literally rolled over every time they've met. And herO, the 2nd best Korean, didn't do much better either tbh. Or Dark for that matter... "They treat Serral differently because of his nationality" --> so do you. If he was a Korean, you would easily buy into him being the GOAT. You do know it is okay to say "I only like Terrans and don't like watching Zerg and/or I don't like Serral" and be done with it, right? You liking or disliking a player doesn't have to be based on facts. It just becomes really silly if you try to boost your opinion on some very shaky "facts" and elitism... Can you not read? I said his overall resume during SC2’s prime years is just the greatest, first GSL player, OSL in 2013, SSL in 2015, Proleague MVP 2015/2016, WESG + 4GSLs in 2018/2019, other premium wins in the less competitive time after 2020, always being a top players even winning Dreamhack after 15 years of progamer career - This resume as a whole its the greatest. Show nested quote +"Because Serral did the impossible and beat the Koreans in the game they couldn't lose" So? Because he beat Koreans so he deserves all the bias? Why? Do you care if a korean player beating other korean players?? This is just mindblowing that those ESL casters treat him differently just because he is not korean. NO. If player Kim farmed in WCS circuits and won 1 Blizzcon then some WC after 2020, I would NOT consider him as the GOAT. Wanna bet if this is honest thoughts? It's you EU fanboys being ridiculously defensive because he is a not Korean. You know what? I dislike the ridiculous fandom only because of one's nationality starting in 2018 and ridiculous fanboys/biased casters behaviors including sending shit message to Maru's chat, shitposting when Dark won WCS, casters being biased non-stop during commentating for YEARS, calling serral goat when he was far away from it, all those "facts" (i.e. things that actually happened) made me dislike it. And all the things including Maru's achievement/SC2 esports history/patches I stated are facts, you can name one thing is wrong if you can find any. Edit: Oh yeah, another thing I dislike is that you fanboys always trying to discount the golden era of SC2 esports, disrespecting player's achievements in HOTS, making up history/balance, being irresponsible for your own words, and lacking the basic cognitive abilities on h2h record (Wow my record against Maru is freaking perfect in 2013-2017, 0 map losses, 0 game losses, because I can't qualify for IEM Taipei or any WCS that maru played in; But this is super convinient once Maru is not as good as before after 13 years of playing, I can beat him so that my h2h record would be so so nice, all thanks to those 0 losses I had when I sucked). So no, I don't dislike players, I dislike fanboys and casters (who are supposed to be not biased) saying dumb things either congenitally or intentially.
Can you not read? You said greatest of ALL time. Not just greatest during prime years. Serral > Maru in the last 6-7 years. 2018 is about even between them and most people don't consider that during SC2's prime years anyways. So don't count Maru's 4 GSLs in 2018.
A lotta baseless accusations... you're the defensive one regarding the nationality. Why are you complaining that the casters are pushing someone who isn't KR? You're projecting.
Who are the "fanboys"? Why are you shadowboxing with an imaginary person? Who said those things here?
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EPT
