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There's no shot people are arguing blizzcons were harder to win than a gsl. Even at the tail end of the 10s, even if you count serral as the best or at worst second best player, 8 or 9 of the top 10 would be Korean.
Even before it was officially dubbed the wc, the katowice winner had a much bigger/better claim to best player in the world. The problem with the way the old wc qualifiers worked is often times the player most in form at that time would seem to miss out a lot due to lack of performances earlier in the year. Its historically been much tougher to be consistent in gsl.
I do agree though recently the gap has closed significantly because there is no longer the depth of players in Korea. But even at ewc most of the top bracket was Korean despite Clem and serral playing in grands
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On August 25 2024 03:06 Moonerz wrote:
There's no shot people are arguing blizzcons were harder to win than a gsl. Even at the tail end of the 10s, even if you count serral as the best or at worst second best player, 8 or 9 of the top 10 would be Korean.
Even before it was officially dubbed the wc, the katowice winner had a much bigger/better claim to best player in the world. The problem with the way the old wc qualifiers worked is often times the player most in form at that time would seem to miss out a lot due to lack of performances earlier in the year. Its historically been much tougher to be consistent in gsl.
I do agree though recently the gap has closed significantly because there is no longer the depth of players in Korea. But even at ewc most of the top bracket was Korean despite Clem and serral playing in grands
BlizzCon was easily the hardest tournament to win. For one, it was the tournament with the highest stakes and the most punishing format, but the qualification alone by nature forced players to be great in GSL over the entire year. Combined with a much tenser atmosphere compared to the GSL Studios, BlizzCon was a monster to win.
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Northern Ireland22462 Posts
On August 25 2024 03:06 Moonerz wrote:
There's no shot people are arguing blizzcons were harder to win than a gsl. Even at the tail end of the 10s, even if you count serral as the best or at worst second best player, 8 or 9 of the top 10 would be Korean.
Even before it was officially dubbed the wc, the katowice winner had a much bigger/better claim to best player in the world. The problem with the way the old wc qualifiers worked is often times the player most in form at that time would seem to miss out a lot due to lack of performances earlier in the year. Its historically been much tougher to be consistent in gsl.
I do agree though recently the gap has closed significantly because there is no longer the depth of players in Korea. But even at ewc most of the top bracket was Korean despite Clem and serral playing in grands
So they should have performed better earlier in the year then? It’s part of the difficulty of winning a WC. You have to deliver over a whole year, and bring it on a weekend
Just as part of the difficulty of winning a GSL is keeping your form up over a long-form tournament that is formatted differently.
Personally I feel it worked best when Katowice and Blizzcon had quite separate niches, and ran together. Kato you got a field of depth, with whoever was running hot, got in through qualifiers etc. Blizzcon became a culimination of regional performance feeding into the best players from each area facing off.
Different challenges with quite distinct flavours. Another aspect of circuit changes I’m not a huge fan of. Katowice became more like Blizzcon, but then the EWC did the same thing again. So you now have the two mega tournaments having a lot of their field regionally split and based on circuit performance, rather than one that focused that way, and the other being more determined by form and with more open qualification shots.
Is mean it harder to win an Olympic Gold in an athletics event, or one in the biennial World Champs? Which is the greater achievement? It’s kinda hard to weigh. The Olympics isn’t always the best of the best, you may be the 5th best athlete in a qualifying year in the world, but if you’re also the 5th best in your nation you might not go. But it’s only every 4 years you’ve got a shot, versus every 2.
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Ok so if we ranked the top 16 players each year blizzcon would have had maybe 8 or 10 max. I fail to see how that is more impressive than winning gsl besides the namesake of world championship. No doubt the format led to many legendary moments with older players etc being able to make a run.
The year long qualification points favors players with a shallow scene. Even if you played kinda poorly in eu/na you're not really going to run into players for the most part who could challenge the top players until the quarters.
As far as the Olympics go I will just compare it to world cyber games. We all know the qualification tourney in Korea is significantly harder than winning the event itself, though obviously less prestigious.
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On August 25 2024 06:19 Balnazza wrote:Show nested quote +On August 25 2024 03:06 Moonerz wrote:
There's no shot people are arguing blizzcons were harder to win than a gsl. Even at the tail end of the 10s, even if you count serral as the best or at worst second best player, 8 or 9 of the top 10 would be Korean.
Even before it was officially dubbed the wc, the katowice winner had a much bigger/better claim to best player in the world. The problem with the way the old wc qualifiers worked is often times the player most in form at that time would seem to miss out a lot due to lack of performances earlier in the year. Its historically been much tougher to be consistent in gsl.
I do agree though recently the gap has closed significantly because there is no longer the depth of players in Korea. But even at ewc most of the top bracket was Korean despite Clem and serral playing in grands BlizzCon was easily the hardest tournament to win. For one, it was the tournament with the highest stakes and the most punishing format, but the qualification alone by nature forced players to be great in GSL over the entire year. Combined with a much tenser atmosphere compared to the GSL Studios, BlizzCon was a monster to win.
Blizzcon was way easier to win than GSL before the rise of Serral/Reynor/Clem. All you have to do is look at how much better non-Koreans and the Koreans that left Korea did in it compared to GSL. Koreans would get bopped over and over in GSL and move to NA and get top 8/4 in Blizzcon by winning a single bo3 against a GSL Korean due to the way seeding and brackets worked back then.
It was really dumb.
The only thing that elevates Serral's Blizzcon is that he was a foreigner and that he actually got nearly the hardest path possible besides avoiding Maru/TY. If he had a typical Blizzcon path it would have been worth no where near a GSL. With his path being what it was I'd call his Blizzcon equal to or slightly better than a 2018 GSL but that still leaves Maru well on top for 2018 because 2 more GSLs and WESG are way better than the other stuff Serral won that year.
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On August 25 2024 14:28 JJH777 wrote:Show nested quote +On August 25 2024 06:19 Balnazza wrote:On August 25 2024 03:06 Moonerz wrote:
There's no shot people are arguing blizzcons were harder to win than a gsl. Even at the tail end of the 10s, even if you count serral as the best or at worst second best player, 8 or 9 of the top 10 would be Korean.
Even before it was officially dubbed the wc, the katowice winner had a much bigger/better claim to best player in the world. The problem with the way the old wc qualifiers worked is often times the player most in form at that time would seem to miss out a lot due to lack of performances earlier in the year. Its historically been much tougher to be consistent in gsl.
I do agree though recently the gap has closed significantly because there is no longer the depth of players in Korea. But even at ewc most of the top bracket was Korean despite Clem and serral playing in grands BlizzCon was easily the hardest tournament to win. For one, it was the tournament with the highest stakes and the most punishing format, but the qualification alone by nature forced players to be great in GSL over the entire year. Combined with a much tenser atmosphere compared to the GSL Studios, BlizzCon was a monster to win. Blizzcon was way easier to win than GSL before the rise of Serral/Reynor/Clem. All you have to do is look at how much better non-Koreans and the Koreans that left Korea did in it compared to GSL. Koreans would get bopped over and over in GSL and move to NA and get top 8/4 in Blizzcon by winning a single bo3 against a GSL Korean due to the way seeding and brackets worked back then. It was really dumb. The only thing that elevates Serral's Blizzcon is that he was a foreigner and that he actually got nearly the hardest path possible besides avoiding Maru/TY. If he had a typical Blizzcon path it would have been worth no where near a GSL. With his path being what it was I'd call his Blizzcon equal to or slightly better than a 2018 GSL but that still leaves Maru well on top for 2018 because 2 more GSLs and WESG are way better than the other stuff Serral won that year.
Originally, you had to play a Single-Elim Bracket of Bo5s, with the first round not even being on BlizzCon. So your entire year depended on one Bo5 to even make it to the big event. Then you had to play 2x Bo5s and 1x Bo7 in one weekend on the biggest stage SC2 has to offer against the Top Players of that year. That alone makes it the hardest one to win.
It got slightly easier ofc when they switched out the first round for a Group Stage, but I would say at that point the rest of the world got better already. Not saying pre-Serral "The West was equal to Korea", clearly not, but if you look at BlizzCon 2017: SpeCial and Elazer made it out of the Group Stage, while heavy-hitters of Korea like Stats and Dark did not. The year before, even three foreigners made it out.
I would argue that at that point, everything that wasn't S-Tier in Korea already became mortal for foreigners.
And in 2018...since the "path" is so interesting for you, Marus paths through his three GSLs was mostly rather easy. Including even wins over foreigners. So really, his GSLs are mostly noteworthy for the playoffs, the rest was kinda "meh". Again, as always: Not saying winning three in a year isn't impressive, it clearly is considering only Mvp had kinda done it if I recall correctly (but in much different circumstances). But if you want to be nitpicky, then do it both ways.
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On August 25 2024 19:46 Balnazza wrote:Show nested quote +On August 25 2024 14:28 JJH777 wrote:On August 25 2024 06:19 Balnazza wrote:On August 25 2024 03:06 Moonerz wrote:
There's no shot people are arguing blizzcons were harder to win than a gsl. Even at the tail end of the 10s, even if you count serral as the best or at worst second best player, 8 or 9 of the top 10 would be Korean.
Even before it was officially dubbed the wc, the katowice winner had a much bigger/better claim to best player in the world. The problem with the way the old wc qualifiers worked is often times the player most in form at that time would seem to miss out a lot due to lack of performances earlier in the year. Its historically been much tougher to be consistent in gsl.
I do agree though recently the gap has closed significantly because there is no longer the depth of players in Korea. But even at ewc most of the top bracket was Korean despite Clem and serral playing in grands BlizzCon was easily the hardest tournament to win. For one, it was the tournament with the highest stakes and the most punishing format, but the qualification alone by nature forced players to be great in GSL over the entire year. Combined with a much tenser atmosphere compared to the GSL Studios, BlizzCon was a monster to win. Blizzcon was way easier to win than GSL before the rise of Serral/Reynor/Clem. All you have to do is look at how much better non-Koreans and the Koreans that left Korea did in it compared to GSL. Koreans would get bopped over and over in GSL and move to NA and get top 8/4 in Blizzcon by winning a single bo3 against a GSL Korean due to the way seeding and brackets worked back then. It was really dumb. The only thing that elevates Serral's Blizzcon is that he was a foreigner and that he actually got nearly the hardest path possible besides avoiding Maru/TY. If he had a typical Blizzcon path it would have been worth no where near a GSL. With his path being what it was I'd call his Blizzcon equal to or slightly better than a 2018 GSL but that still leaves Maru well on top for 2018 because 2 more GSLs and WESG are way better than the other stuff Serral won that year. Originally, you had to play a Single-Elim Bracket of Bo5s, with the first round not even being on BlizzCon. So your entire year depended on one Bo5 to even make it to the big event. Then you had to play 2x Bo5s and 1x Bo7 in one weekend on the biggest stage SC2 has to offer against the Top Players of that year. That alone makes it the hardest one to win. It got slightly easier ofc when they switched out the first round for a Group Stage, but I would say at that point the rest of the world got better already. Not saying pre-Serral "The West was equal to Korea", clearly not, but if you look at BlizzCon 2017: SpeCial and Elazer made it out of the Group Stage, while heavy-hitters of Korea like Stats and Dark did not. The year before, even three foreigners made it out. I would argue that at that point, everything that wasn't S-Tier in Korea already became mortal for foreigners. And in 2018...since the "path" is so interesting for you, Marus paths through his three GSLs was mostly rather easy. Including even wins over foreigners. So really, his GSLs are mostly noteworthy for the playoffs, the rest was kinda "meh". Again, as always: Not saying winning three in a year isn't impressive, it clearly is considering only Mvp had kinda done it if I recall correctly (but in much different circumstances). But if you want to be nitpicky, then do it both ways.
Just to followup on the MVP note, only Maru won 3 GSLs within the same calendar year. MVP won 2 in 2011 year, and 3 in 16 months. Nestea won 2 in 2011, and won 3 in 8 months.
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On August 25 2024 19:46 Balnazza wrote:Show nested quote +On August 25 2024 14:28 JJH777 wrote:On August 25 2024 06:19 Balnazza wrote:On August 25 2024 03:06 Moonerz wrote:
There's no shot people are arguing blizzcons were harder to win than a gsl. Even at the tail end of the 10s, even if you count serral as the best or at worst second best player, 8 or 9 of the top 10 would be Korean.
Even before it was officially dubbed the wc, the katowice winner had a much bigger/better claim to best player in the world. The problem with the way the old wc qualifiers worked is often times the player most in form at that time would seem to miss out a lot due to lack of performances earlier in the year. Its historically been much tougher to be consistent in gsl.
I do agree though recently the gap has closed significantly because there is no longer the depth of players in Korea. But even at ewc most of the top bracket was Korean despite Clem and serral playing in grands BlizzCon was easily the hardest tournament to win. For one, it was the tournament with the highest stakes and the most punishing format, but the qualification alone by nature forced players to be great in GSL over the entire year. Combined with a much tenser atmosphere compared to the GSL Studios, BlizzCon was a monster to win. Blizzcon was way easier to win than GSL before the rise of Serral/Reynor/Clem. All you have to do is look at how much better non-Koreans and the Koreans that left Korea did in it compared to GSL. Koreans would get bopped over and over in GSL and move to NA and get top 8/4 in Blizzcon by winning a single bo3 against a GSL Korean due to the way seeding and brackets worked back then. It was really dumb. The only thing that elevates Serral's Blizzcon is that he was a foreigner and that he actually got nearly the hardest path possible besides avoiding Maru/TY. If he had a typical Blizzcon path it would have been worth no where near a GSL. With his path being what it was I'd call his Blizzcon equal to or slightly better than a 2018 GSL but that still leaves Maru well on top for 2018 because 2 more GSLs and WESG are way better than the other stuff Serral won that year. Originally, you had to play a Single-Elim Bracket of Bo5s, with the first round not even being on BlizzCon. So your entire year depended on one Bo5 to even make it to the big event. Then you had to play 2x Bo5s and 1x Bo7 in one weekend on the biggest stage SC2 has to offer against the Top Players of that year. That alone makes it the hardest one to win. It got slightly easier ofc when they switched out the first round for a Group Stage, but I would say at that point the rest of the world got better already. Not saying pre-Serral "The West was equal to Korea", clearly not, but if you look at BlizzCon 2017: SpeCial and Elazer made it out of the Group Stage, while heavy-hitters of Korea like Stats and Dark did not. The year before, even three foreigners made it out. I would argue that at that point, everything that wasn't S-Tier in Korea already became mortal for foreigners. And in 2018...since the "path" is so interesting for you, Marus paths through his three GSLs was mostly rather easy. Including even wins over foreigners. So really, his GSLs are mostly noteworthy for the playoffs, the rest was kinda "meh". Again, as always: Not saying winning three in a year isn't impressive, it clearly is considering only Mvp had kinda done it if I recall correctly (but in much different circumstances). But if you want to be nitpicky, then do it both ways.
Wait what? Blizzcon was harder than GSL because it included foreigners but Maru had a comparatively easy path to win GSL because he was facing foreigners? Which one is it now, does the inclusion of foreigners make the tournament harder or easier?
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On August 25 2024 20:17 Charoisaur wrote:Show nested quote +On August 25 2024 19:46 Balnazza wrote:On August 25 2024 14:28 JJH777 wrote:On August 25 2024 06:19 Balnazza wrote:On August 25 2024 03:06 Moonerz wrote:
There's no shot people are arguing blizzcons were harder to win than a gsl. Even at the tail end of the 10s, even if you count serral as the best or at worst second best player, 8 or 9 of the top 10 would be Korean.
Even before it was officially dubbed the wc, the katowice winner had a much bigger/better claim to best player in the world. The problem with the way the old wc qualifiers worked is often times the player most in form at that time would seem to miss out a lot due to lack of performances earlier in the year. Its historically been much tougher to be consistent in gsl.
I do agree though recently the gap has closed significantly because there is no longer the depth of players in Korea. But even at ewc most of the top bracket was Korean despite Clem and serral playing in grands BlizzCon was easily the hardest tournament to win. For one, it was the tournament with the highest stakes and the most punishing format, but the qualification alone by nature forced players to be great in GSL over the entire year. Combined with a much tenser atmosphere compared to the GSL Studios, BlizzCon was a monster to win. Blizzcon was way easier to win than GSL before the rise of Serral/Reynor/Clem. All you have to do is look at how much better non-Koreans and the Koreans that left Korea did in it compared to GSL. Koreans would get bopped over and over in GSL and move to NA and get top 8/4 in Blizzcon by winning a single bo3 against a GSL Korean due to the way seeding and brackets worked back then. It was really dumb. The only thing that elevates Serral's Blizzcon is that he was a foreigner and that he actually got nearly the hardest path possible besides avoiding Maru/TY. If he had a typical Blizzcon path it would have been worth no where near a GSL. With his path being what it was I'd call his Blizzcon equal to or slightly better than a 2018 GSL but that still leaves Maru well on top for 2018 because 2 more GSLs and WESG are way better than the other stuff Serral won that year. Originally, you had to play a Single-Elim Bracket of Bo5s, with the first round not even being on BlizzCon. So your entire year depended on one Bo5 to even make it to the big event. Then you had to play 2x Bo5s and 1x Bo7 in one weekend on the biggest stage SC2 has to offer against the Top Players of that year. That alone makes it the hardest one to win. It got slightly easier ofc when they switched out the first round for a Group Stage, but I would say at that point the rest of the world got better already. Not saying pre-Serral "The West was equal to Korea", clearly not, but if you look at BlizzCon 2017: SpeCial and Elazer made it out of the Group Stage, while heavy-hitters of Korea like Stats and Dark did not. The year before, even three foreigners made it out. I would argue that at that point, everything that wasn't S-Tier in Korea already became mortal for foreigners. And in 2018...since the "path" is so interesting for you, Marus paths through his three GSLs was mostly rather easy. Including even wins over foreigners. So really, his GSLs are mostly noteworthy for the playoffs, the rest was kinda "meh". Again, as always: Not saying winning three in a year isn't impressive, it clearly is considering only Mvp had kinda done it if I recall correctly (but in much different circumstances). But if you want to be nitpicky, then do it both ways. Wait what? Blizzcon was harder than GSL because it included foreigners but Maru had a comparatively easy path to win GSL because he was facing foreigners? Which one is it now, does the inclusion of foreigners make the tournament harder or easier?
I never said BlizzCon is harder because it includes foreigners, what? I just said it including foreigners was not an issue in laters years, especially not 2016-2018.
However, if your stance is that foreigners are giga-trash and every tournament becomes invalid because they are in it and not just the GSL-SuperElite, then...sorry, atleast one of Marus GSL was free, not worth mentioning.
That's the problem with you two: You get extremly nitpicky with everything concerning foreigners in general and Serral in particular. Everything needs to be analyzed down to each map, every "imbalanced mappol" or "Lucky path" needs to be mentioned...but GSL suddenly is always this monolith, that per default means it is the greatest feat known to mankind to win it and how dare you even look into it?
If you want to be pedantic, be it fairly. Which includes Maru winning the first 18'GSL on his third life, meaning in every iteration of BlizzCon he would have already been out. And his third win included wins over foreigners, which if you say that they're not noteworthy in 2018, then therefore Maru had a super-easy GSL.
You can't have the one without the other, sorry.
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United States32895 Posts
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EPT
