On July 26 2025 04:40 Zurka wrote: Should have future proofed these rankings and put Serral at #1, when this thread was created Maru might have been the goat (debatable) but Serral was still winning events during this time whereas Maru was not and with this latest tournament victory Serral is irrefutablly the goat, so the arguments and discussions can stop now
Thank you for telling me when to talk, what to write and what to think,
On July 26 2025 04:40 Zurka wrote: Should have future proofed these rankings and put Serral at #1, when this thread was created Maru might have been the goat (debatable) but Serral was still winning events during this time whereas Maru was not and with this latest tournament victory Serral is irrefutablly the goat, so the arguments and discussions can stop now
Applause dude, you created this account just to make this 1 comment.
On July 26 2025 07:00 dedede wrote: Maru’s biggest claim comes from his OSL/SSL/Proleague MVP performances during the KeSPA era and his WESG plus four GSL titles in 2018. While he did choke at World Championships (twice losing 2–3 to Rogue and also to Reynor 😡), his overall resume during SC2’s prime years is just the greatest, even now when the scene is just mostly dead when the same people playing each others all the time when he is far from his best form he still somehow got into ro8. I guess he only plays for money now, I think we won’t ever see the motivated Terran prince Maru again.
Also with ESL pushing the “Serral as GOAT” narrative since 2018 (they clearly wanted to create a star—why they didn’t choose Reynor is beyond me), it’s no surprise that a lot of people with zero knowledge of SC2 esports history watch the game when serral is the best right now, hear the casters shouting “GOAT,” and completely buy into that storyline. He is the best player right now, but how can people who don’t know the sc2 esports history throw around the term “all time”?
The reason I always got annoyed listening to those ESL casters is that they treat Serral differently purely because of his nationality. If Serral were just some Korean player named Kim, the number of fanboys and biased casters would drop to 1%.
"People don't know the history of SC2" --> claims that Maru is somehow the best player of the Kespa-era...whut?
"They wanted a star so they picked Serral, why not Reynor?" --> Because Serral did the impossible and beat the Koreans in the game they couldn't lose. And then they kept doing it. A lot of foreigners have gotten victories over Koreans, but no one ever outclassed them like Serral. Honestly, Serral vs. Maru last year was just silly, Maru literally rolled over every time they've met. And herO, the 2nd best Korean, didn't do much better either tbh. Or Dark for that matter...
"They treat Serral differently because of his nationality" --> so do you. If he was a Korean, you would easily buy into him being the GOAT.
You do know it is okay to say "I only like Terrans and don't like watching Zerg and/or I don't like Serral" and be done with it, right? You liking or disliking a player doesn't have to be based on facts. It just becomes really silly if you try to boost your opinion on some very shaky "facts" and elitism...
"claims that Maru is somehow the best player of the Kespa-era...whut?"
Can you not read? I said his overall resume during SC2’s prime years is just the greatest, first GSL player, OSL in 2013, SSL in 2015, Proleague MVP 2015/2016, WESG + 4GSLs in 2018/2019, other premium wins in the less competitive time after 2020, always being a top players even winning Dreamhack after 15 years of progamer career - This resume as a whole its the greatest.
"Because Serral did the impossible and beat the Koreans in the game they couldn't lose"
So? Because he beat Koreans so he deserves all the bias? Why? Do you care if a korean player beating other korean players?? This is just mindblowing that those ESL casters treat him differently just because he is not korean.
"If he was a Korean, you would easily buy into him being the GOAT"
NO. If player Kim farmed in WCS circuits and won 1 Blizzcon then some WC after 2020, I would NOT consider him as the GOAT. Wanna bet if this is honest thoughts? It's you EU fanboys being ridiculously defensive because he is a not Korean.
"You liking or disliking a player doesn't have to be based on facts"
You know what? I dislike the ridiculous fandom only because of one's nationality starting in 2018 and ridiculous fanboys/biased casters behaviors including sending shit message to Maru's chat, shitposting when Dark won WCS, casters being biased non-stop during commentating for YEARS, calling serral goat when he was far away from it, all those "facts" (i.e. things that actually happened) made me dislike it. And all the things including Maru's achievement/SC2 esports history/patches I stated are facts, you can name one thing is wrong if you can find any.
Edit: Oh yeah, another thing I dislike is that you fanboys always trying to discount the golden era of SC2 esports, disrespecting player's achievements in HOTS, making up history/balance, being irresponsible for your own words, and lacking the basic cognitive abilities on h2h record (Wow my record against Maru is freaking perfect in 2013-2017, 0 map losses, 0 game losses, because I can't qualify for IEM Taipei or any WCS that maru played in; But this is super convinient once Maru is not as good as before after 13 years of playing, I can beat him so that my h2h record would be so so nice, all thanks to those 0 losses I had when I sucked). So no, I don't dislike players, I dislike fanboys and casters (who are supposed to be not biased) saying dumb things either congenitally or intentially.
Can you not read? You said greatest of ALL time. Not just greatest during prime years. Serral > Maru in the last 6-7 years. 2018 is about even between them and most people don't consider that during SC2's prime years anyways. So don't count Maru's 4 GSLs in 2018.
A lotta baseless accusations... you're the defensive one regarding the nationality. Why are you complaining that the casters are pushing someone who isn't KR? You're projecting.
Who are the "fanboys"? Why are you shadowboxing with an imaginary person? Who said those things here?
Can YOU not read? Of course it’s greatest of ALL TIME that’s why Maru’s achievement in HOTS matters (more since it’s prime years). From 2010 to 2025, who else has better resume and achievement for this 15 years of SC2 esports? If Maru didn’t win OSL at 15 year old or didn’t win SSL or wasn’t the 4th race in HOTS already and beating everyone in proleague he would be behind Rogue or Innovation, but just because he had success in the prime years, plus WESG+4GSLs in the post prime 2018-Covid, even he fell back in post Covid times but the scene now is just at the least competitive level so championships after 2020 even his latter 4 GSLs is not as important as the other ones, same to other people’s GSLs and championships in post Covid and post blizzard time. That’s my statement, is it hard to understand?
Serral> Maru in the last 6-7 years.
You are saying Serral is better than Maru in before 2022?? He is better than Maru since 2022 but Maru is better than him in 2018 and at least the same level if not better in 2020 2021 not counting 2019 as it was Zerg year. How did that 6-7 years come from? Be concise
A lotta baseless accusations... you're the defensive one regarding the nationality. Why are you complaining that the casters are pushing someone who isn't KR?
Is it that hard to understand? I’m not defensive one regarding their nationality. I’m offensive toward unfairness that one foreigner getting all the fandom around him because of his nationality. If those western casters treated Serral and Rogue fairly and equally I would have ZERO COMPLAINTS. Did GSL production give Korean players biased treatment than Scarlett or Reynor when they played in GSL? “Why am I complaining casters pushing someone who isn’t Korean?” Because they shouldn’t pushing someone based on its nationality at all, that’s the point, got it? In a crazy world those western casters fanboying a Korean player because he is Korean I would go mad too, wanna bet?
Who are the "fanboys"? Why are you shadowboxing with an imaginary person? Who said those things here?
Fanboying is a behavior of some casters/producers biased towards serral, some fans harassing Maru and going to TY stream asking him the goat topic in 2020, and those fans defaming the prime times and the competitiveness of GSL before 2020, all the stuff I already wrote them, how is it not clear?
Some of you are using Maru's SSL win as a base to claim he is best of all time because he also won things in Hots. Unfortunetaly the sad truth is that the SSL was never on the same level of prestige as a GSL. Most of the time SSL and GSL ran parallel and the players took GSL more seriously. They pracced for GSL and yes, they showed up for SSL, but a big chunk of players didn't really put much effort and practice time for it until they got eliminated from GSL. It was like this. Some players didn't even sign for SSL's when a GSL was running parallel with it. The player pool was always worse in SSL than in GSL. It was like that in Hots, and it was the same during Lotv.
The other funny thing are the statements like Serral can't be the goat because he won most if not all of his achievments in the declining era. But if you look when Maru won his achievments, his multiple GSL titles, it was in the same declining era. But the equation is applied for one side (Serral) and then is not applied conveniently for the other side(Maru) lol.
Some of you are using Maru's SSL win as a base to claim he is best of all time because he also won things in Hots. Unfortunetaly the sad truth is that the SSL was never on the same level of prestige as a GSL. Most of the time SSL and GSL ran parallel and the players took GSL more seriously. They pracced for GSL and yes, they showed up for SSL, but a big chunk of players didn't really put much effort and practice time for it until they got eliminated from GSL. It was like this. Some players didn't even sign for SSL's when a GSL was running parallel with it. The player pool was always worse in SSL than in GSL. It was like that in Hots, and it was the same during Lotv.
The other funny thing are the statements like Serral can't be the goat because he won most if not all of his achievments in the declining era. But if you look when Maru won his achievments, his multiple GSL titles, it was in the same declining era. But the equation is applied for one side (Serral) and then is not applied conveniently for the other side(Maru) lol.
I give you the point that SSL wasn’t as important as GSL. However Maru’s proleague performance for two years is what proving him as at least the #2 best Terran in HOTS.
Declining era is facts. I give Serrals 2018 Blizzcon win much more credits than other championships after 2020 when covid hit and blizzard pulled out. Lack of offline tournaments due to Covid + Blizzard stop supporting is another major regression since kespa disbanded. And I said Maru’s 4GSLs in a row is much more impressive than the latter 4, when GSL was still the most competitive tournament at that time. The equation is applied on all side, rogue dark all people who won championship after covid time when the competitiveness is going down and to this point SC2 esports all depends on EWC and you can just know who will be the top 8 when looking at the brackets - it’s the lowest competitive. Players knowledge of this game is better ofc, skill level I’m not sure, competitive level definitely is at its lowest point. In facts 30+ players who came back from military service can still compete even be on top, it can tell you something.
Who are the "fanboys"? Why are you shadowboxing with an imaginary person? Who said those things here?
Fanboying is a behavior of some casters/producers biased towards serral, some fans harassing Maru and going to TY stream asking him the goat topic in 2020, and those fans defaming the prime times and the competitiveness of GSL before 2020, all the stuff I already wrote them, how is it not clear?
My dude, you are on point quite a bit, kudos!
Honestly, if you listen to English casters, chances are, you are subconsciously heavily biased.
I listen to multiple languages of casting, and the majority of English casters (ZombieGrub, Wardi, etc.) are absurdly biased towards non-Koreans. To the point of the casting being infuriating to me, like, stop guys, at least try to be objective in casting, we just want to enjoy the game.
Honestly, the only English casters that are not as biased are Artosis and maybe Rotterdam. But of course, Artosis doesn't really cast SC2 anymore except in the biggest tournaments.
Some of you are using Maru's SSL win as a base to claim he is best of all time because he also won things in Hots. Unfortunetaly the sad truth is that the SSL was never on the same level of prestige as a GSL. Most of the time SSL and GSL ran parallel and the players took GSL more seriously. They pracced for GSL and yes, they showed up for SSL, but a big chunk of players didn't really put much effort and practice time for it until they got eliminated from GSL. It was like this. Some players didn't even sign for SSL's when a GSL was running parallel with it. The player pool was always worse in SSL than in GSL. It was like that in Hots, and it was the same during Lotv.
The other funny thing are the statements like Serral can't be the goat because he won most if not all of his achievments in the declining era. But if you look when Maru won his achievments, his multiple GSL titles, it was in the same declining era. But the equation is applied for one side (Serral) and then is not applied conveniently for the other side(Maru) lol.
I give you the point that SSL wasn’t as important as GSL. However Maru’s proleague performance for two years is what proving him as at least the #2 best Terran in HOTS.
Declining era is facts. I give Serrals 2018 Blizzcon win much more credits than other championships after 2020 when covid hit and blizzard pulled out. Lack of offline tournaments due to Covid + Blizzard stop supporting is another major regression since kespa disbanded. And I said Maru’s 4GSLs in a row is much more impressive than the latter 4, when GSL was still the most competitive tournament at that time. The equation is applied on all side, rogue dark all people who won championship after covid time when the competitiveness is going down and to this point SC2 esports all depends on EWC and you can just know who will be the top 8 when looking at the brackets - it’s the lowest competitive. Players knowledge of this game is better ofc, skill level I’m not sure, competitive level definitely is at its lowest point. In facts 30+ players who came back from military service can still compete even be on top, it can tell you something.
SSL was just as difficult as GSL (which is why I adopted the term Korean Individual Leagues), but that's not the way it's been depicted. Though, that shouldn't be a surprise as Spo no longer holds SC2 tournament and Afreeca has been jamming GSL for nearly a decade. Of course they are gonna prop up their event to be of singular importance.
Some of you are using Maru's SSL win as a base to claim he is best of all time because he also won things in Hots. Unfortunetaly the sad truth is that the SSL was never on the same level of prestige as a GSL. Most of the time SSL and GSL ran parallel and the players took GSL more seriously. They pracced for GSL and yes, they showed up for SSL, but a big chunk of players didn't really put much effort and practice time for it until they got eliminated from GSL. It was like this. Some players didn't even sign for SSL's when a GSL was running parallel with it. The player pool was always worse in SSL than in GSL. It was like that in Hots, and it was the same during Lotv.
The other funny thing are the statements like Serral can't be the goat because he won most if not all of his achievments in the declining era. But if you look when Maru won his achievments, his multiple GSL titles, it was in the same declining era. But the equation is applied for one side (Serral) and then is not applied conveniently for the other side(Maru) lol.
I give you the point that SSL wasn’t as important as GSL. However Maru’s proleague performance for two years is what proving him as at least the #2 best Terran in HOTS.
Declining era is facts. I give Serrals 2018 Blizzcon win much more credits than other championships after 2020 when covid hit and blizzard pulled out. Lack of offline tournaments due to Covid + Blizzard stop supporting is another major regression since kespa disbanded. And I said Maru’s 4GSLs in a row is much more impressive than the latter 4, when GSL was still the most competitive tournament at that time. The equation is applied on all side, rogue dark all people who won championship after covid time when the competitiveness is going down and to this point SC2 esports all depends on EWC and you can just know who will be the top 8 when looking at the brackets - it’s the lowest competitive. Players knowledge of this game is better ofc, skill level I’m not sure, competitive level definitely is at its lowest point. In facts 30+ players who came back from military service can still compete even be on top, it can tell you something.
Can you please pick a timeframe for that supposed "prime time"? In one post it is 2013-2016, then suddenly Marus 4 GSLs in a row are hyper-impressive...that was 2018-19. Maybe we should establish the "SC2 Maru timeline", in which SC2 is always in its prime when Maru wins? Which btw is another thing someone should analyze: Why is Marus claim for GOATness somehow getting stronger with each tournament Serral wins? This crops up every single time Maru loses, this time he couldn't even get into the discussion of winning the tournament...
Was Serral the GOAT in 2018? Yes and no. Skillwise I would say he was probably the best player the game has ever seen up to that point, his BlizzCon run was basically the most dominant and stayed that way for years until Clem last year. Accomplishment-wise he was surely up there immediately aswell, but I don't think you can claim even a Top 10 status when you have only one truely competitive year in your resumee. That is why for example my favorite WC3 player of all time Creolophus will never be remotely in the GOAT-discussion - he was the best player in 2007 by far, but he only had that one dominant year before he retired. But Serral kept going, kept doing it. And he reached that status that when people talk about how Serral "dissappointed", it is always in the Quarterfinals. Heck, sometimes he loses in the Semifinals and people go "wow, weak performance by Serral". Serral is the first and probably only player in the history of this game that people expect to win every tournament he enters, everything else but the gold will be used against him for months in argument.
Btw history: You yourself disrespect the history of this game quite a bit if you essentially claim that only 3-4 years matter. We are what, in year 14/15? How can you really believe only 20% of what we all do here matters, the rest is just white-noise? No, it is not. You cannot cling on three or four years of this game, everything counts. And if you look at it as a whole, Serrals resume is beyond reproach. Depending on how you count he is either the only Three-time or Four-time World Champion. He broke the korean dominance to a degree that he can go 8-2 against the best korean Protoss in two series and people are not even really fazed by it. Cure, the perhaps 2nd best Terran right now gets high praise...for losing 0-4 against Serral. And he did all that without ever setting foot in a teamhouse.
You could have made, like Mizenhauer did, arguments for Maru last year. But after everything that happened since this list was published, the discussion is over (for now). Maru did better his status with his Dallas win for sure, but it doesn't really matter in the long run. At this point, the only thing that could revive it would be a Maru World Championship next year (if we get one). Nothing else can even remotely close the gap anymore between the two, atleast not for the next three years.
On July 26 2025 07:00 dedede wrote: Maru’s biggest claim comes from his OSL/SSL/Proleague MVP performances during the KeSPA era and his WESG plus four GSL titles in 2018. While he did choke at World Championships (twice losing 2–3 to Rogue and also to Reynor 😡), his overall resume during SC2’s prime years is just the greatest, even now when the scene is just mostly dead when the same people playing each others all the time when he is far from his best form he still somehow got into ro8. I guess he only plays for money now, I think we won’t ever see the motivated Terran prince Maru again.
Also with ESL pushing the “Serral as GOAT” narrative since 2018 (they clearly wanted to create a star—why they didn’t choose Reynor is beyond me), it’s no surprise that a lot of people with zero knowledge of SC2 esports history watch the game when serral is the best right now, hear the casters shouting “GOAT,” and completely buy into that storyline. He is the best player right now, but how can people who don’t know the sc2 esports history throw around the term “all time”?
The reason I always got annoyed listening to those ESL casters is that they treat Serral differently purely because of his nationality. If Serral were just some Korean player named Kim, the number of fanboys and biased casters would drop to 1%.
"People don't know the history of SC2" --> claims that Maru is somehow the best player of the Kespa-era...whut?
"They wanted a star so they picked Serral, why not Reynor?" --> Because Serral did the impossible and beat the Koreans in the game they couldn't lose. And then they kept doing it. A lot of foreigners have gotten victories over Koreans, but no one ever outclassed them like Serral. Honestly, Serral vs. Maru last year was just silly, Maru literally rolled over every time they've met. And herO, the 2nd best Korean, didn't do much better either tbh. Or Dark for that matter...
"They treat Serral differently because of his nationality" --> so do you. If he was a Korean, you would easily buy into him being the GOAT.
You do know it is okay to say "I only like Terrans and don't like watching Zerg and/or I don't like Serral" and be done with it, right? You liking or disliking a player doesn't have to be based on facts. It just becomes really silly if you try to boost your opinion on some very shaky "facts" and elitism...
"claims that Maru is somehow the best player of the Kespa-era...whut?"
Can you not read? I said his overall resume during SC2’s prime years is just the greatest, first GSL player, OSL in 2013, SSL in 2015, Proleague MVP 2015/2016, WESG + 4GSLs in 2018/2019, other premium wins in the less competitive time after 2020, always being a top players even winning Dreamhack after 15 years of progamer career - This resume as a whole its the greatest.
"Because Serral did the impossible and beat the Koreans in the game they couldn't lose"
So? Because he beat Koreans so he deserves all the bias? Why? Do you care if a korean player beating other korean players?? This is just mindblowing that those ESL casters treat him differently just because he is not korean.
"If he was a Korean, you would easily buy into him being the GOAT"
NO. If player Kim farmed in WCS circuits and won 1 Blizzcon then some WC after 2020, I would NOT consider him as the GOAT. Wanna bet if this is honest thoughts? It's you EU fanboys being ridiculously defensive because he is a not Korean.
"You liking or disliking a player doesn't have to be based on facts"
You know what? I dislike the ridiculous fandom only because of one's nationality starting in 2018 and ridiculous fanboys/biased casters behaviors including sending shit message to Maru's chat, shitposting when Dark won WCS, casters being biased non-stop during commentating for YEARS, calling serral goat when he was far away from it, all those "facts" (i.e. things that actually happened) made me dislike it. And all the things including Maru's achievement/SC2 esports history/patches I stated are facts, you can name one thing is wrong if you can find any.
Edit: Oh yeah, another thing I dislike is that you fanboys always trying to discount the golden era of SC2 esports, disrespecting player's achievements in HOTS, making up history/balance, being irresponsible for your own words, and lacking the basic cognitive abilities on h2h record (Wow my record against Maru is freaking perfect in 2013-2017, 0 map losses, 0 game losses, because I can't qualify for IEM Taipei or any WCS that maru played in; But this is super convinient once Maru is not as good as before after 13 years of playing, I can beat him so that my h2h record would be so so nice, all thanks to those 0 losses I had when I sucked). So no, I don't dislike players, I dislike fanboys and casters (who are supposed to be not biased) saying dumb things either congenitally or intentially.
Can you not read? You said greatest of ALL time. Not just greatest during prime years. Serral > Maru in the last 6-7 years. 2018 is about even between them and most people don't consider that during SC2's prime years anyways. So don't count Maru's 4 GSLs in 2018.
A lotta baseless accusations... you're the defensive one regarding the nationality. Why are you complaining that the casters are pushing someone who isn't KR? You're projecting.
Who are the "fanboys"? Why are you shadowboxing with an imaginary person? Who said those things here?
Can YOU not read? Of course it’s greatest of ALL TIME that’s why Maru’s achievement in HOTS matters (more since it’s prime years). From 2010 to 2025, who else has better resume and achievement for this 15 years of SC2 esports? If Maru didn’t win OSL at 15 year old or didn’t win SSL or wasn’t the 4th race in HOTS already and beating everyone in proleague he would be behind Rogue or Innovation, but just because he had success in the prime years, plus WESG+4GSLs in the post prime 2018-Covid, even he fell back in post Covid times but the scene now is just at the least competitive level so championships after 2020 even his latter 4 GSLs is not as important as the other ones, same to other people’s GSLs and championships in post Covid and post blizzard time. That’s my statement, is it hard to understand?
You are saying Serral is better than Maru in before 2022?? He is better than Maru since 2022 but Maru is better than him in 2018 and at least the same level if not better in 2020 2021 not counting 2019 as it was Zerg year. How did that 6-7 years come from? Be concise
A lotta baseless accusations... you're the defensive one regarding the nationality. Why are you complaining that the casters are pushing someone who isn't KR?
Is it that hard to understand? I’m not defensive one regarding their nationality. I’m offensive toward unfairness that one foreigner getting all the fandom around him because of his nationality. If those western casters treated Serral and Rogue fairly and equally I would have ZERO COMPLAINTS. Did GSL production give Korean players biased treatment than Scarlett or Reynor when they played in GSL? “Why am I complaining casters pushing someone who isn’t Korean?” Because they shouldn’t pushing someone based on its nationality at all, that’s the point, got it? In a crazy world those western casters fanboying a Korean player because he is Korean I would go mad too, wanna bet?
Who are the "fanboys"? Why are you shadowboxing with an imaginary person? Who said those things here?
Fanboying is a behavior of some casters/producers biased towards serral, some fans harassing Maru and going to TY stream asking him the goat topic in 2020, and those fans defaming the prime times and the competitiveness of GSL before 2020, all the stuff I already wrote them, how is it not clear?
Yes it is hard to understand. You asked someone if they can read, but you need to explain and be concise, not me.
It is not clear.
If the fanboys are the casters and producers, why are you arguing against imaginary people here or talking as if the people replying to you say/do the things you say these "fanboys" say/do?
Some of you are using Maru's SSL win as a base to claim he is best of all time because he also won things in Hots. Unfortunetaly the sad truth is that the SSL was never on the same level of prestige as a GSL. Most of the time SSL and GSL ran parallel and the players took GSL more seriously. They pracced for GSL and yes, they showed up for SSL, but a big chunk of players didn't really put much effort and practice time for it until they got eliminated from GSL. It was like this. Some players didn't even sign for SSL's when a GSL was running parallel with it. The player pool was always worse in SSL than in GSL. It was like that in Hots, and it was the same during Lotv.
The other funny thing are the statements like Serral can't be the goat because he won most if not all of his achievments in the declining era. But if you look when Maru won his achievments, his multiple GSL titles, it was in the same declining era. But the equation is applied for one side (Serral) and then is not applied conveniently for the other side(Maru) lol.
I give you the point that SSL wasn’t as important as GSL. However Maru’s proleague performance for two years is what proving him as at least the #2 best Terran in HOTS.
Declining era is facts. I give Serrals 2018 Blizzcon win much more credits than other championships after 2020 when covid hit and blizzard pulled out. Lack of offline tournaments due to Covid + Blizzard stop supporting is another major regression since kespa disbanded. And I said Maru’s 4GSLs in a row is much more impressive than the latter 4, when GSL was still the most competitive tournament at that time. The equation is applied on all side, rogue dark all people who won championship after covid time when the competitiveness is going down and to this point SC2 esports all depends on EWC and you can just know who will be the top 8 when looking at the brackets - it’s the lowest competitive. Players knowledge of this game is better ofc, skill level I’m not sure, competitive level definitely is at its lowest point. In facts 30+ players who came back from military service can still compete even be on top, it can tell you something.
Can you please pick a timeframe for that supposed "prime time"? In one post it is 2013-2016, then suddenly Marus 4 GSLs in a row are hyper-impressive...that was 2018-19. Maybe we should establish the "SC2 Maru timeline", in which SC2 is always in its prime when Maru wins? Which btw is another thing someone should analyze: Why is Marus claim for GOATness somehow getting stronger with each tournament Serral wins? This crops up every single time Maru loses, this time he couldn't even get into the discussion of winning the tournament...
Was Serral the GOAT in 2018? Yes and no. Skillwise I would say he was probably the best player the game has ever seen up to that point, his BlizzCon run was basically the most dominant and stayed that way for years until Clem last year. Accomplishment-wise he was surely up there immediately aswell, but I don't think you can claim even a Top 10 status when you have only one truely competitive year in your resumee. That is why for example my favorite WC3 player of all time Creolophus will never be remotely in the GOAT-discussion - he was the best player in 2007 by far, but he only had that one dominant year before he retired. But Serral kept going, kept doing it. And he reached that status that when people talk about how Serral "dissappointed", it is always in the Quarterfinals. Heck, sometimes he loses in the Semifinals and people go "wow, weak performance by Serral". Serral is the first and probably only player in the history of this game that people expect to win every tournament he enters, everything else but the gold will be used against him for months in argument.
Btw history: You yourself disrespect the history of this game quite a bit if you essentially claim that only 3-4 years matter. We are what, in year 14/15? How can you really believe only 20% of what we all do here matters, the rest is just white-noise? No, it is not. You cannot cling on three or four years of this game, everything counts. And if you look at it as a whole, Serrals resume is beyond reproach. Depending on how you count he is either the only Three-time or Four-time World Champion. He broke the korean dominance to a degree that he can go 8-2 against the best korean Protoss in two series and people are not even really fazed by it. Cure, the perhaps 2nd best Terran right now gets high praise...for losing 0-4 against Serral. And he did all that without ever setting foot in a teamhouse.
You could have made, like Mizenhauer did, arguments for Maru last year. But after everything that happened since this list was published, the discussion is over (for now). Maru did better his status with his Dallas win for sure, but it doesn't really matter in the long run. At this point, the only thing that could revive it would be a Maru World Championship next year (if we get one). Nothing else can even remotely close the gap anymore between the two, atleast not for the next three years.
Serral was, far and away, the best player I'd ever seen play when he won the WCS WC in 2018, but I think it would be irresponsible to state that he was, even, the 15th greatest player of all time at that point. It's pretty clear that Maru, Inno, NesTea, Rogue, sOs, soO, Rain, ByuN, Stats, Dark, TY, herO, Classic, Zest, TaeJa, PartinG, MC and more had a better resume as of the end of 2018.
Some of you are using Maru's SSL win as a base to claim he is best of all time because he also won things in Hots. Unfortunetaly the sad truth is that the SSL was never on the same level of prestige as a GSL. Most of the time SSL and GSL ran parallel and the players took GSL more seriously. They pracced for GSL and yes, they showed up for SSL, but a big chunk of players didn't really put much effort and practice time for it until they got eliminated from GSL. It was like this. Some players didn't even sign for SSL's when a GSL was running parallel with it. The player pool was always worse in SSL than in GSL. It was like that in Hots, and it was the same during Lotv.
The other funny thing are the statements like Serral can't be the goat because he won most if not all of his achievments in the declining era. But if you look when Maru won his achievments, his multiple GSL titles, it was in the same declining era. But the equation is applied for one side (Serral) and then is not applied conveniently for the other side(Maru) lol.
I give you the point that SSL wasn’t as important as GSL. However Maru’s proleague performance for two years is what proving him as at least the #2 best Terran in HOTS.
Declining era is facts. I give Serrals 2018 Blizzcon win much more credits than other championships after 2020 when covid hit and blizzard pulled out. Lack of offline tournaments due to Covid + Blizzard stop supporting is another major regression since kespa disbanded. And I said Maru’s 4GSLs in a row is much more impressive than the latter 4, when GSL was still the most competitive tournament at that time. The equation is applied on all side, rogue dark all people who won championship after covid time when the competitiveness is going down and to this point SC2 esports all depends on EWC and you can just know who will be the top 8 when looking at the brackets - it’s the lowest competitive. Players knowledge of this game is better ofc, skill level I’m not sure, competitive level definitely is at its lowest point. In facts 30+ players who came back from military service can still compete even be on top, it can tell you something.
SSL was just as difficult as GSL (which is why I adopted the term Korean Individual Leagues), but that's not the way it's been depicted. Though, that shouldn't be a surprise as Spo no longer holds SC2 tournament and Afreeca has been jamming GSL for nearly a decade. Of course they are gonna prop up their event to be of singular importance.
I have to disagree. SSL mostly had 1 group stage of 16 players, while GSL had 2. In 2016 season 1 it even featured double elimi, which wasn't the case at GSL. In 2017 it was a Round robin of 10 players playing for quarter or direct final seedings. That is a lot easier than GSL from that time.
Some of you are using Maru's SSL win as a base to claim he is best of all time because he also won things in Hots. Unfortunetaly the sad truth is that the SSL was never on the same level of prestige as a GSL. Most of the time SSL and GSL ran parallel and the players took GSL more seriously. They pracced for GSL and yes, they showed up for SSL, but a big chunk of players didn't really put much effort and practice time for it until they got eliminated from GSL. It was like this. Some players didn't even sign for SSL's when a GSL was running parallel with it. The player pool was always worse in SSL than in GSL. It was like that in Hots, and it was the same during Lotv.
The other funny thing are the statements like Serral can't be the goat because he won most if not all of his achievments in the declining era. But if you look when Maru won his achievments, his multiple GSL titles, it was in the same declining era. But the equation is applied for one side (Serral) and then is not applied conveniently for the other side(Maru) lol.
I give you the point that SSL wasn’t as important as GSL. However Maru’s proleague performance for two years is what proving him as at least the #2 best Terran in HOTS.
Declining era is facts. I give Serrals 2018 Blizzcon win much more credits than other championships after 2020 when covid hit and blizzard pulled out. Lack of offline tournaments due to Covid + Blizzard stop supporting is another major regression since kespa disbanded. And I said Maru’s 4GSLs in a row is much more impressive than the latter 4, when GSL was still the most competitive tournament at that time. The equation is applied on all side, rogue dark all people who won championship after covid time when the competitiveness is going down and to this point SC2 esports all depends on EWC and you can just know who will be the top 8 when looking at the brackets - it’s the lowest competitive. Players knowledge of this game is better ofc, skill level I’m not sure, competitive level definitely is at its lowest point. In facts 30+ players who came back from military service can still compete even be on top, it can tell you something.
SSL was just as difficult as GSL (which is why I adopted the term Korean Individual Leagues), but that's not the way it's been depicted. Though, that shouldn't be a surprise as Spo no longer holds SC2 tournament and Afreeca has been jamming GSL for nearly a decade. Of course they are gonna prop up their event to be of singular importance.
I have to disagree. SSL mostly had 1 group stage of 16 players, while GSL had 2. In 2016 season 1 it even featured double elimination, which wasn't the case at GSL. In 2017 it was a Round robin of 10 players playing for quarter or direct final seedings. That is a lot easier than GSL from that time.
SSL might have tinkered with the format too much in 2016/2017, but the seasons held in 2015 are formatted better than Code S. All SSL did was effectively move the Round of 32 into the qualifiers. The opening round of Code S became increasingly useless over the years-producing quartets where two players are a near lock to advance. Meanwhile, starting in the Round of 16 made the matches in SSL feel like they were of increased consequence). As for difficulty, SSL, just like Code S, had its share of group of deaths, and more than half the competitors were championship contenders. For example, the opening round of Season 3 of SSL in 2015 is mindboggling.
Classic, Rain, Dream, herO, INnoVation, Life, sOs, ByuL, Maru and Zest reached the grand finals of a WC/KIL that year. Stats reached the round of four twice in a KIL and TY reached the semifinals once, as well. GSL/Code S always had the greater prestige but, for our purposes, they shouldn't be treated differently. SSL/OSL had the same participants, maps, meta and general format. There's no reason to discount it based on its name value.
My biggest contention is the notion that the general format was the same. I'd say a Bo5 in the Challenge of SSL 2015 (Ro32) is definitely easier than a Ro32 group stage of GSL, due to its unforgiving nature. Double elimination post 2015 was a difficulty downgrade as essentially every player in the knockout stage has 2 lives (except the upper bracket finalist). Depending on the format this means a 3-6% win rate boost. 2017 with the round robin change and the potential seeding into the finals feels further toned down in comparison to GSL.
On July 26 2025 07:00 dedede wrote: Maru’s biggest claim comes from his OSL/SSL/Proleague MVP performances during the KeSPA era and his WESG plus four GSL titles in 2018. While he did choke at World Championships (twice losing 2–3 to Rogue and also to Reynor 😡), his overall resume during SC2’s prime years is just the greatest, even now when the scene is just mostly dead when the same people playing each others all the time when he is far from his best form he still somehow got into ro8. I guess he only plays for money now, I think we won’t ever see the motivated Terran prince Maru again.
Also with ESL pushing the “Serral as GOAT” narrative since 2018 (they clearly wanted to create a star—why they didn’t choose Reynor is beyond me), it’s no surprise that a lot of people with zero knowledge of SC2 esports history watch the game when serral is the best right now, hear the casters shouting “GOAT,” and completely buy into that storyline. He is the best player right now, but how can people who don’t know the sc2 esports history throw around the term “all time”?
The reason I always got annoyed listening to those ESL casters is that they treat Serral differently purely because of his nationality. If Serral were just some Korean player named Kim, the number of fanboys and biased casters would drop to 1%.
"People don't know the history of SC2" --> claims that Maru is somehow the best player of the Kespa-era...whut?
"They wanted a star so they picked Serral, why not Reynor?" --> Because Serral did the impossible and beat the Koreans in the game they couldn't lose. And then they kept doing it. A lot of foreigners have gotten victories over Koreans, but no one ever outclassed them like Serral. Honestly, Serral vs. Maru last year was just silly, Maru literally rolled over every time they've met. And herO, the 2nd best Korean, didn't do much better either tbh. Or Dark for that matter...
"They treat Serral differently because of his nationality" --> so do you. If he was a Korean, you would easily buy into him being the GOAT.
You do know it is okay to say "I only like Terrans and don't like watching Zerg and/or I don't like Serral" and be done with it, right? You liking or disliking a player doesn't have to be based on facts. It just becomes really silly if you try to boost your opinion on some very shaky "facts" and elitism...
"claims that Maru is somehow the best player of the Kespa-era...whut?"
Can you not read? I said his overall resume during SC2’s prime years is just the greatest, first GSL player, OSL in 2013, SSL in 2015, Proleague MVP 2015/2016, WESG + 4GSLs in 2018/2019, other premium wins in the less competitive time after 2020, always being a top players even winning Dreamhack after 15 years of progamer career - This resume as a whole its the greatest.
"Because Serral did the impossible and beat the Koreans in the game they couldn't lose"
So? Because he beat Koreans so he deserves all the bias? Why? Do you care if a korean player beating other korean players?? This is just mindblowing that those ESL casters treat him differently just because he is not korean.
"If he was a Korean, you would easily buy into him being the GOAT"
NO. If player Kim farmed in WCS circuits and won 1 Blizzcon then some WC after 2020, I would NOT consider him as the GOAT. Wanna bet if this is honest thoughts? It's you EU fanboys being ridiculously defensive because he is a not Korean.
"You liking or disliking a player doesn't have to be based on facts"
You know what? I dislike the ridiculous fandom only because of one's nationality starting in 2018 and ridiculous fanboys/biased casters behaviors including sending shit message to Maru's chat, shitposting when Dark won WCS, casters being biased non-stop during commentating for YEARS, calling serral goat when he was far away from it, all those "facts" (i.e. things that actually happened) made me dislike it. And all the things including Maru's achievement/SC2 esports history/patches I stated are facts, you can name one thing is wrong if you can find any.
Edit: Oh yeah, another thing I dislike is that you fanboys always trying to discount the golden era of SC2 esports, disrespecting player's achievements in HOTS, making up history/balance, being irresponsible for your own words, and lacking the basic cognitive abilities on h2h record (Wow my record against Maru is freaking perfect in 2013-2017, 0 map losses, 0 game losses, because I can't qualify for IEM Taipei or any WCS that maru played in; But this is super convinient once Maru is not as good as before after 13 years of playing, I can beat him so that my h2h record would be so so nice, all thanks to those 0 losses I had when I sucked). So no, I don't dislike players, I dislike fanboys and casters (who are supposed to be not biased) saying dumb things either congenitally or intentially.
Can you not read? You said greatest of ALL time. Not just greatest during prime years. Serral > Maru in the last 6-7 years. 2018 is about even between them and most people don't consider that during SC2's prime years anyways. So don't count Maru's 4 GSLs in 2018.
A lotta baseless accusations... you're the defensive one regarding the nationality. Why are you complaining that the casters are pushing someone who isn't KR? You're projecting.
Who are the "fanboys"? Why are you shadowboxing with an imaginary person? Who said those things here?
Can YOU not read? Of course it’s greatest of ALL TIME that’s why Maru’s achievement in HOTS matters (more since it’s prime years). From 2010 to 2025, who else has better resume and achievement for this 15 years of SC2 esports? If Maru didn’t win OSL at 15 year old or didn’t win SSL or wasn’t the 4th race in HOTS already and beating everyone in proleague he would be behind Rogue or Innovation, but just because he had success in the prime years, plus WESG+4GSLs in the post prime 2018-Covid, even he fell back in post Covid times but the scene now is just at the least competitive level so championships after 2020 even his latter 4 GSLs is not as important as the other ones, same to other people’s GSLs and championships in post Covid and post blizzard time. That’s my statement, is it hard to understand?
Serral> Maru in the last 6-7 years.
You are saying Serral is better than Maru in before 2022?? He is better than Maru since 2022 but Maru is better than him in 2018 and at least the same level if not better in 2020 2021 not counting 2019 as it was Zerg year. How did that 6-7 years come from? Be concise
A lotta baseless accusations... you're the defensive one regarding the nationality. Why are you complaining that the casters are pushing someone who isn't KR?
Is it that hard to understand? I’m not defensive one regarding their nationality. I’m offensive toward unfairness that one foreigner getting all the fandom around him because of his nationality. If those western casters treated Serral and Rogue fairly and equally I would have ZERO COMPLAINTS. Did GSL production give Korean players biased treatment than Scarlett or Reynor when they played in GSL? “Why am I complaining casters pushing someone who isn’t Korean?” Because they shouldn’t pushing someone based on its nationality at all, that’s the point, got it? In a crazy world those western casters fanboying a Korean player because he is Korean I would go mad too, wanna bet?
Who are the "fanboys"? Why are you shadowboxing with an imaginary person? Who said those things here?
Fanboying is a behavior of some casters/producers biased towards serral, some fans harassing Maru and going to TY stream asking him the goat topic in 2020, and those fans defaming the prime times and the competitiveness of GSL before 2020, all the stuff I already wrote them, how is it not clear?
Yes it is hard to understand. You asked someone if they can read, but you need to explain and be concise, not me.
It is not clear.
If the fanboys are the casters and producers, why are you arguing against imaginary people here or talking as if the people replying to you say/do the things you say these "fanboys" say/do?
Casters, producers, and his fans who trash-talk other players while denying that Zerg was favored in multiple LOTV patches, ignoring the absolute fact that he achieved nothing in HOTS, and showing disrespect to GSL/Proleague and the peak years of competitiveness, that’s just what I’ve consistently seen over the years. This is directly relevant to the topic, especially when people replying to me (or in this thread) keep denying or dismissing his lack of achievements during the prime era. They try to justify the fandom as “fair” not because he’s non-Korean, but because he rose up of the system, when in reality, Byun already did that and that system had already collapsed by 2018. The fandom was born out of foreigner-bias, and ESL’s official push only made it worse and more unfair. It’s like if the Champions League were blatantly biased toward UK teams, especially Manchester City for whatever reason.
On July 27 2025 01:06 PremoBeats wrote: My biggest contention is the notion that the general format was the same. I'd say a Bo5 in the Challenge of SSL 2015 (Ro32) is definitely easier than a Ro32 group stage of GSL, due to its unforgiving nature. Double elimination post 2015 was a difficulty downgrade as essentially every player in the knockout stage has 2 lives (except the upper bracket finalist). Depending on the format this means a 3-6% win rate boost. 2017 with the round robin change and the potential seeding into the finals feels further toned down in comparison to GSL.
2017 SSL was a big issue for me when it came to tracking win rates. I give the winner's as much credit as if they won Code S, but I set the nine matches from the round robin aside. I made note of them, but those numbers were excluded from my calculation. Winning GSL required seven wins back then, but you could win the event with as many as four match losses. I don't think there's a huge difference between going 8-3 to win SSL (a 6-3 record that finishes third and the aforementioned record.
Some of you are using Maru's SSL win as a base to claim he is best of all time because he also won things in Hots. Unfortunetaly the sad truth is that the SSL was never on the same level of prestige as a GSL. Most of the time SSL and GSL ran parallel and the players took GSL more seriously. They pracced for GSL and yes, they showed up for SSL, but a big chunk of players didn't really put much effort and practice time for it until they got eliminated from GSL. It was like this. Some players didn't even sign for SSL's when a GSL was running parallel with it. The player pool was always worse in SSL than in GSL. It was like that in Hots, and it was the same during Lotv.
The other funny thing are the statements like Serral can't be the goat because he won most if not all of his achievments in the declining era. But if you look when Maru won his achievments, his multiple GSL titles, it was in the same declining era. But the equation is applied for one side (Serral) and then is not applied conveniently for the other side(Maru) lol.
I give you the point that SSL wasn’t as important as GSL. However Maru’s proleague performance for two years is what proving him as at least the #2 best Terran in HOTS.
Declining era is facts. I give Serrals 2018 Blizzcon win much more credits than other championships after 2020 when covid hit and blizzard pulled out. Lack of offline tournaments due to Covid + Blizzard stop supporting is another major regression since kespa disbanded. And I said Maru’s 4GSLs in a row is much more impressive than the latter 4, when GSL was still the most competitive tournament at that time. The equation is applied on all side, rogue dark all people who won championship after covid time when the competitiveness is going down and to this point SC2 esports all depends on EWC and you can just know who will be the top 8 when looking at the brackets - it’s the lowest competitive. Players knowledge of this game is better ofc, skill level I’m not sure, competitive level definitely is at its lowest point. In facts 30+ players who came back from military service can still compete even be on top, it can tell you something.
Can you please pick a timeframe for that supposed "prime time"? In one post it is 2013-2016, then suddenly Marus 4 GSLs in a row are hyper-impressive...that was 2018-19. Maybe we should establish the "SC2 Maru timeline", in which SC2 is always in its prime when Maru wins? Which btw is another thing someone should analyze: Why is Marus claim for GOATness somehow getting stronger with each tournament Serral wins? This crops up every single time Maru loses, this time he couldn't even get into the discussion of winning the tournament...
Was Serral the GOAT in 2018? Yes and no. Skillwise I would say he was probably the best player the game has ever seen up to that point, his BlizzCon run was basically the most dominant and stayed that way for years until Clem last year. Accomplishment-wise he was surely up there immediately aswell, but I don't think you can claim even a Top 10 status when you have only one truely competitive year in your resumee. That is why for example my favorite WC3 player of all time Creolophus will never be remotely in the GOAT-discussion - he was the best player in 2007 by far, but he only had that one dominant year before he retired. But Serral kept going, kept doing it. And he reached that status that when people talk about how Serral "dissappointed", it is always in the Quarterfinals. Heck, sometimes he loses in the Semifinals and people go "wow, weak performance by Serral". Serral is the first and probably only player in the history of this game that people expect to win every tournament he enters, everything else but the gold will be used against him for months in argument.
Btw history: You yourself disrespect the history of this game quite a bit if you essentially claim that only 3-4 years matter. We are what, in year 14/15? How can you really believe only 20% of what we all do here matters, the rest is just white-noise? No, it is not. You cannot cling on three or four years of this game, everything counts. And if you look at it as a whole, Serrals resume is beyond reproach. Depending on how you count he is either the only Three-time or Four-time World Champion. He broke the korean dominance to a degree that he can go 8-2 against the best korean Protoss in two series and people are not even really fazed by it. Cure, the perhaps 2nd best Terran right now gets high praise...for losing 0-4 against Serral. And he did all that without ever setting foot in a teamhouse.
You could have made, like Mizenhauer did, arguments for Maru last year. But after everything that happened since this list was published, the discussion is over (for now). Maru did better his status with his Dallas win for sure, but it doesn't really matter in the long run. At this point, the only thing that could revive it would be a Maru World Championship next year (if we get one). Nothing else can even remotely close the gap anymore between the two, atleast not for the next three years.
You yourself disrespect the history of this game quite a bit if you essentially claim that only 3-4 years matter.
I did not claim this, if I did sOs would the goat based on that logic. I claim, the prime years achievement matters a lot more, that is, 2013-2015 kespa era > 2010-2012 pre kespa/2016-2020 post kespa > 2020-now post blizzard era.
You could have made, like Mizenhauer did, arguments for Maru last year. But after everything that happened since this list was published, the discussion is over (for now)
. The arguments are mostly the same with Miz, that is, Maru’s biggest claim is his successful performance in all era, especially kespa era and post kespa era. This hasn’t changed. And the IEM and EWC serral won in 2024-2025 weighed different by people depends on how you think the pro scene is dead (I.e. there is no real “professional” esports, just players having rest of most of the year and then come back and compete for 3 months)
Some of you are using Maru's SSL win as a base to claim he is best of all time because he also won things in Hots. Unfortunetaly the sad truth is that the SSL was never on the same level of prestige as a GSL. Most of the time SSL and GSL ran parallel and the players took GSL more seriously. They pracced for GSL and yes, they showed up for SSL, but a big chunk of players didn't really put much effort and practice time for it until they got eliminated from GSL. It was like this. Some players didn't even sign for SSL's when a GSL was running parallel with it. The player pool was always worse in SSL than in GSL. It was like that in Hots, and it was the same during Lotv.
The other funny thing are the statements like Serral can't be the goat because he won most if not all of his achievments in the declining era. But if you look when Maru won his achievments, his multiple GSL titles, it was in the same declining era. But the equation is applied for one side (Serral) and then is not applied conveniently for the other side(Maru) lol.
I give you the point that SSL wasn’t as important as GSL. However Maru’s proleague performance for two years is what proving him as at least the #2 best Terran in HOTS.
Declining era is facts. I give Serrals 2018 Blizzcon win much more credits than other championships after 2020 when covid hit and blizzard pulled out. Lack of offline tournaments due to Covid + Blizzard stop supporting is another major regression since kespa disbanded. And I said Maru’s 4GSLs in a row is much more impressive than the latter 4, when GSL was still the most competitive tournament at that time. The equation is applied on all side, rogue dark all people who won championship after covid time when the competitiveness is going down and to this point SC2 esports all depends on EWC and you can just know who will be the top 8 when looking at the brackets - it’s the lowest competitive. Players knowledge of this game is better ofc, skill level I’m not sure, competitive level definitely is at its lowest point. In facts 30+ players who came back from military service can still compete even be on top, it can tell you something.
SSL was just as difficult as GSL (which is why I adopted the term Korean Individual Leagues), but that's not the way it's been depicted. Though, that shouldn't be a surprise as Spo no longer holds SC2 tournament and Afreeca has been jamming GSL for nearly a decade. Of course they are gonna prop up their event to be of singular importance.
I have to disagree. SSL mostly had 1 group stage of 16 players, while GSL had 2. In 2016 season 1 it even featured double elimination, which wasn't the case at GSL. In 2017 it was a Round robin of 10 players playing for quarter or direct final seedings. That is a lot easier than GSL from that time.
SSL might have tinkered with the format too much in 2016/2017, but the seasons held in 2015 are formatted better than Code S. All SSL did was effectively move the Round of 32 into the qualifiers. The opening round of Code S became increasingly useless over the years-producing quartets where two players are a near lock to advance. Meanwhile, starting in the Round of 16 made the matches in SSL feel like they were of increased consequence). As for difficulty, SSL, just like Code S, had its share of group of deaths, and more than half the competitors were championship contenders. For example, the opening round of Season 3 of SSL in 2015 is mindboggling.
Classic, Rain, Dream, herO, INnoVation, Life, sOs, ByuL, Maru and Zest reached the grand finals of a WC/KIL that year. Stats reached the round of four twice in a KIL and TY reached the semifinals once, as well. GSL/Code S always had the greater prestige but, for our purposes, they shouldn't be treated differently. SSL/OSL had the same participants, maps, meta and general format. There's no reason to discount it based on its name value.
Thank you Miz for the reminder about SSL and Spotv!! I almost forgot all those great content from Spotv, need to rewatch them.
This was a crazy bracket, another showcase of how the scene declines from 2015 to 2025.
EPT
![[image loading]](/staff/Mizenhauer/ssl_s3.jpg)
