EPT#1: Maru - Greatest Players of All Time - Page 70
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WombaT
Northern Ireland26225 Posts
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Ciaus237
South Africa286 Posts
On August 02 2024 03:01 WombaT wrote: Is Mvp the Olga Korbut of SC2? I think he's more the F1 Senna sort, ya know? Serral is a bit of a Magnus Carlsen on the other hand. | ||
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bela.mervado
Hungary404 Posts
Loeb is great, but he never drove a Subaru, can't be goat | ||
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WombaT
Northern Ireland26225 Posts
On August 02 2024 01:17 Mizenhauer wrote: To everyone who uses sports analogies. STOP USING THEM. NO ONE KNOWS EVERYTHING ABOUT EVERY SPORTS SO, IT CAUSES A LOT OF CONFUSION AMONG THE LESS INITIATED. ON TOP OF THAT, THE ANALOGY IS ALMOST ALWAYS A POORER EXAMPLE OF THE SC2 SITUATION YOU'RE ALREADY DISCUSSING THAN THE SC2 SITAUTION YOU ARE CURRENTLY DISCUSSING ITSELF. User was warned for this post Joking aside you gotta make an effort to explain the analogy, but if you do hey why not? In terms of competitive endeavours we only have so many points of comparison, and by looking at sports we can perhaps look at what we value in competitive activities I class Mvp as SC2’s Olga Korbut because he was an absolute level above in his day, and a GOAT for it, but those who came after definitely raised the level | ||
Mizenhauer
United States1906 Posts
On August 02 2024 09:41 WombaT wrote: Joking aside you gotta make an effort to explain the analogy, but if you do hey why not? In terms of competitive endeavours we only have so many points of comparison, and by looking at sports we can perhaps look at what we value in competitive activities I class Mvp as SC2’s Olga Korbut because he was an absolute level above in his day, and a GOAT for it, but those who came after definitely raised the level It seems I was hoisted by my own petard. | ||
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Furaijin
5 Posts
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Nasigil1
114 Posts
It might not be over for this tournament yet, they could very well meet again in semis. | ||
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CicadaSC
United States1849 Posts
On August 17 2024 07:27 Nasigil1 wrote: I can totally understand the reasoning behind author's point on putting Maru ahead of Seral (even if I don't agree), but the timing couldn't be more unfortunate for this series to come out and immediately followed by Serral utterly destroyed Maru in biggest tournaments three straight times. It might not be over for this tournament yet, they could very well meet again in semis. Game 3 he was on to something, and even in the interview Serral said he was worried he could reverse sweep but game 4 for some reason he tried to mech it happen and it just wasn't the play. | ||
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Nasigil1
114 Posts
On August 17 2024 07:38 CicadaSC wrote: Game 3 he was on to something, and even in the interview Serral said he was worried he could reverse sweep but game 4 for some reason he tried to mech it happen and it just wasn't the play. IDK, the way I see it, Serral took multiple uncharacteristically bad engagements in G3, the game was lost long before the gg in the end. But in G4 Maru never had the chance, Serral was mining Maru's side of map too comfortably and trade too efficiently. | ||
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cha0
Canada508 Posts
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PremoBeats
538 Posts
On August 17 2024 06:48 Furaijin wrote: Once again Serral >>>>> Maru... wonder how many more times in a row this needs to happen before the original poster realizes Maru is NOT the goat. It's the guy that keeps owning him and EVERYONE ELSE! For a GOAT discussion you need more than an individual match record versus another player in my opinion. Such comparisons lag for the potential reasons of individual playstyle, racial imbalances or simply bad timing in the life of the players. Miz crowned Maru GOAT not based on a list of individual records but based on performances in tournaments. Although I still don't understand completely how he arrived at the results of his list, given the little information we have on his methodology, this metric is much better than individual records. I didn't use this metric as well, as there are much better ones at hand. To me, individual records are the cherry on top of the cake and the fact that Serral has no negative match record versus anyone else he played regularly weighs much more than a match record versus any other GOAT contender. But I didn't even include these in my analysis because there are metrics avaiable that are better to compare potential GOATs. | ||
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Comedy
466 Posts
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WombaT
Northern Ireland26225 Posts
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Charoisaur
Germany16021 Posts
On August 17 2024 17:37 WombaT wrote: The head-to-head probably is much more even if Maru got to play Serral more when he was more in the ascendancy. Yeah it's a bit like Federer vs Djokovic or Mike Tyson vs Holyfield/Lennox Lewis. Maru is still hanging around the top due to his excellence but he's definitely a bit mechanically declined by now evidenced by mostly playing for lategame and not anymore the frenetic aggressive style he used to play when he was younger. Serral struggles more vs aggressive players like vs Clem, therefore I think it's reasonable to assume a younger version of Maru could've done better. That's why head-to-head isn't the end-all-be-all as it depends a lot on how the timeframes where the players faced each other were favorable to one player or the other. Serrals probably still the Goat now but it could still swing in favor of Maru if he wins a couple big tournaments, regardless of his record vs Serral | ||
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kajtarp
Hungary485 Posts
On August 17 2024 17:37 WombaT wrote: The head-to-head probably is much more even if Maru got to play Serral more when he was more in the ascendancy. When Maru was more in the "ascendancy" he always failed to meet Serral in big international tournaments, because he was knocked down by someone else more often than not. Remember how much people wanted the Serral Maru clash to happen, and how much time needed for the first one to actually happen. And apart from that win on WESG i'm not sure how many times did Maru manage to actually beat him. | ||
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phodacbiet
United States1740 Posts
On August 17 2024 17:37 WombaT wrote: The head-to-head probably is much more even if Maru got to play Serral more when he was more in the ascendancy. Maru had to get into the finals of those tournament for that to happen. Unfortunately, he was Jetlagged™ and Played Without Prep™ and got knocked out in the early rounds so Serral had to play some other players instead. | ||
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WombaT
Northern Ireland26225 Posts
On August 18 2024 03:52 phodacbiet wrote: Maru had to get into the finals of those tournament for that to happen. Unfortunately, he was Jetlagged™ and Played Without Prep™ and got knocked out in the early rounds so Serral had to play some other players instead. Serral got knocked out of a Katowice by Ragnarok when Maru upheld his end of the bargain too. Maru won plenty of non-GSL tournaments in this span overall. Maru absolutely smacked Serral in ESWC when they did meet. I don’t think he necessarily does it consistently for years, but be it Serral improving, Maru not quite being as good as he once was or a combination of the two I think it’s difficult to argue that the head-to-head is a bit skewed. | ||
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johnnyh123
124 Posts
On August 02 2024 03:13 Ciaus237 wrote: I think he's more the F1 Senna sort, ya know? Serral is a bit of a Magnus Carlsen on the other hand. Not sure about Serral comparison to Magnus Carlsen though, not to take away anything from Serral. First, Chess is a game that is estimated to be played by 600m players worldwide, and among them around 350k are rated (plays in rated game/tournaments), and about half of that, or 175k are rated and active (plays rated games/tournaments within the last 12 months). Second, it is not dying at all. While most games are played offline, Chess.com alone has more than 100 million users and around 60 million monthly active users. And at least according to Chess.com, this number has been growing steadily (might have to do with offline players transitioning to online, but we don't know). Third, at any given point in time, there are about 300,000 users on Chess.com alone. Comparatively, Starcraft 2 is probably played by around 10m players (considering they sold 6m copies of WoL), and among them Aligulac.com has 757 players rated. Then, it is trending downwards though relatively stable nowadays. Active players in 2023 are likely around 85k, that's about half compared to the year before. There are also very few new players in the game. At any given point in time, there are likely around 10,000 players online. Now, in a game with way more player base and more history, Magnus is the undisputed #1 player for about 13 years from 2011. Which also makes him the youngest #1 player in the world ever. Furthermore, he has won a world championship in all 3 categories of chess, the only one to do so, and he has done it multiple times. You would expect him to win tournaments that he goes into. In fact, he went 2+ years undefeated from 2018 to 2020 in 125 games. Serral is a favorite going into many tournaments nowadays, but he is not the undisputed #1 player for years. Nor do you expect him to win most tournaments that he goes into, you probably expect him to win a tournament for every 3 tournaments or so (statistically he wins about a third). | ||
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Balnazza
Germany1248 Posts
On August 18 2024 05:29 johnnyh123 wrote: Not sure about Serral comparison to Magnus Carlsen though, not to take away anything from Serral. First, Chess is a game that is estimated to be played by 600m players worldwide, and among them around 350k are rated (plays in rated game/tournaments), and about half of that, or 175k are rated and active (plays rated games/tournaments within the last 12 months). Second, it is not dying at all. While most games are played offline, Chess.com alone has more than 100 million users and around 60 million monthly active users. And at least according to Chess.com, this number has been growing steadily (might have to do with offline players transitioning to online, but we don't know). Third, at any given point in time, there are about 300,000 users on Chess.com alone. Comparatively, Starcraft 2 is probably played by around 10m players (considering they sold 6m copies of WoL), and among them Aligulac.com has 757 players rated. Then, it is trending downwards though relatively stable nowadays. Active players in 2023 are likely around 85k, that's about half compared to the year before. There are also very few new players in the game. At any given point in time, there are likely around 10,000 players online. Now, in a game with way more player base and more history, Magnus is the undisputed #1 player for about 13 years from 2011. Which also makes him the youngest #1 player in the world ever. Furthermore, he has won a world championship in all 3 categories of chess, the only one to do so, and he has done it multiple times. You would expect him to win tournaments that he goes into. In fact, he went 2+ years undefeated from 2018 to 2020 in 125 games. Serral is a favorite going into many tournaments nowadays, but he is not the undisputed #1 player for years. Nor do you expect him to win most tournaments that he goes into, you probably expect him to win a tournament for every 3 tournaments or so (statistically he wins about a third). Honestly: Yes, Serral is expected to win every tournament. Much more than Magnus Carlsen tbh. Serral dropping out in the Ro4 usually is considered to be a disappointement. The differences between Chess and SC2 are of course tremendous in terms of playerbase, that is correct. But the point where Magnus and Serral connect is their level of dominance and their ability to seemingly play a completly different game than anyone else. | ||
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Lorning
Belgica34432 Posts
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) isn't from the Premiere League and only 25% of the Champions League winner (here Blizzcon/ Katowice) are PL teams... 
