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Northern Ireland27190 Posts
On July 27 2024 22:06 Charoisaur wrote:Show nested quote +On July 27 2024 21:59 rwala wrote:On July 27 2024 17:47 PremoBeats wrote:On July 27 2024 17:40 Charoisaur wrote:
I'd say the 50% buff feels appropriate compared to 2019 but low compared to 2024. The difference between 2019 and 2024 is so high that it doesn't make sense to rate them equally.
I would probably rate tournaments pre-2017 at 100%, 2017-2019 at 66% and post-2019 at 33%. That feels more appropriate with how competitive the scenes were at the respective times Agreed for the most part... but it wouldn't change the result. INno's era would need a 300% buff to all of post 2017 to get him on par with Serral. Although skill level was still on the rise which would have to be weighed versus less players. Yes the result was preordained by the choice of metrics and not-so-subtle decisions like excluding achievements related to Proleague while including less impressive achievements like results in Euro regionals. By the way I’d be careful not to concede too much with your “nerfing” and “buffing” of tournament results/era handicaps because if folks decide that they don’t care about things like Aligulac rating and only care about tournament results you will have inadvertently anointed someone other than Serral as the GOAT. This is also the peril of not justifying or weighting your metrics. Yeah the rhethoric he uses with doing mental gymnastics in every category to twist it like he's "nerfing" Serral is hilarious. While at the same time nerfing Maru/Inno heavily by disregarding Proleague and barely talking about it hoping we wouldn't notice
It doesn’t neatly fit into the rest of how we judge GOATs, ran for a few years out of 14, you needed to be in Korea full-time and be in an eligible team to even play it in.
It’s clearly worth something for sure but how do you actually include it?
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Not quite the same but that feels a little like discounting the premier league or the NBA since you would have to live full time in the USA or UK. Basically everyone good enough would have been playing in pro league
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On July 27 2024 22:06 Charoisaur wrote:Show nested quote +On July 27 2024 21:59 rwala wrote:On July 27 2024 17:47 PremoBeats wrote:On July 27 2024 17:40 Charoisaur wrote:
I'd say the 50% buff feels appropriate compared to 2019 but low compared to 2024. The difference between 2019 and 2024 is so high that it doesn't make sense to rate them equally.
I would probably rate tournaments pre-2017 at 100%, 2017-2019 at 66% and post-2019 at 33%. That feels more appropriate with how competitive the scenes were at the respective times Agreed for the most part... but it wouldn't change the result. INno's era would need a 300% buff to all of post 2017 to get him on par with Serral. Although skill level was still on the rise which would have to be weighed versus less players. Yes the result was preordained by the choice of metrics and not-so-subtle decisions like excluding achievements related to Proleague while including less impressive achievements like results in Euro regionals. By the way I’d be careful not to concede too much with your “nerfing” and “buffing” of tournament results/era handicaps because if folks decide that they don’t care about things like Aligulac rating and only care about tournament results you will have inadvertently anointed someone other than Serral as the GOAT. This is also the peril of not justifying or weighting your metrics. Yeah the rhethoric he uses with doing mental gymnastics in every category to twist it like he's "nerfing" Serral is hilarious. While at the same time nerfing Maru/Inno heavily by disregarding Proleague and barely talking about it hoping we wouldn't notice
100%
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Northern Ireland27190 Posts
On July 27 2024 23:33 Moonerz wrote:
Not quite the same but that feels a little like discounting the premier league or the NBA since you would have to live full time in the USA or UK. Basically everyone good enough would have been playing in pro league
If the NBA only ran for a fraction of Pro basketball’s lifespan, didn’t exist anymore and to boot played with a different ruleset to near every other competition.
In golf or tennis, the Davis Cup and Ryder Cup are prestigious tournaments and people get pumped for, they don’t really come up in GOAT conversations because the vast majority of those two sports is made up of individual competition.
I think Proleague occupies much the same space, doesn’t mean I don’t value it, just is awkward to fit in.
If SC2 had a scene like BW’s then yeah it’s place is pretty clearly defined
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I don't wanna spam Miz's list anymore with discussions about my list... thus I continue there.
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I'm not caught up on the discussion, but I just want to jump in on the notion that MVP should be in the top 10 of a GOAT ranking. I'm not sure he should be in the top 15 tbh. I will admit if we talked about GOAT rankings before LotV I would've put him solidly in the top 4, There's Life, TaeJa, MC, MVP, and he's probably solidly above Polt. If you look purely result wise and don't think about eras at all Dark would probably be top 4, Serral, Maru, Rogue and Dark as 4th. But I think many agree that Dark hasn't been as impressive as a top 4, he's more or less sticked around and kept getting solid results. MVP's mark on the scene is more or less like TY's super impressive year, but TY did this in arguably a more difficult era. I would probably rate 2011 about the same as 2017, in terms of competitiveness. This is due to higher talent from the kespa era that was still very much sticking around at this time. But the performance have kept improving ever since the start, so I actually see TY's results as more impressive, not to mention that he didn't benefit from Terran OPness. I doubt many ppl are arguing for TY as GOAT.
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United States1939 Posts
On July 28 2024 14:28 PremoBeats wrote:
I don't wanna spam Miz's list anymore with discussions about my list... thus I continue there.
No, I love it lol. Having more posts and views on this thread is like a feast for my vanity. 
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United States1939 Posts
On July 28 2024 18:56 ejozl wrote:
I'm not caught up on the discussion, but I just want to jump in on the notion that MVP should be in the top 10 of a GOAT ranking. I'm not sure he should be in the top 15 tbh. I will admit if we talked about GOAT rankings before LotV I would've put him solidly in the top 4, There's Life, TaeJa, MC, MVP, and he's probably solidly above Polt. If you look purely result wise and don't think about eras at all Dark would probably be top 4, Serral, Maru, Rogue and Dark as 4th. But I think many agree that Dark hasn't been as impressive as a top 4, he's more or less sticked around and kept getting solid results. MVP's mark on the scene is more or less like TY's super impressive year, but TY did this in arguably a more difficult era. I would probably rate 2011 about the same as 2017, in terms of competitiveness. This is due to higher talent from the kespa era that was still very much sticking around at this time. But the performance have kept improving ever since the start, so I actually see TY's results as more impressive, not to mention that he didn't benefit from Terran OPness. I doubt many ppl are arguing for TY as GOAT.
Mvp still tied for the third most Code S wins behind Maru and Rogue more than a decade after retiring.
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On July 28 2024 21:10 Mizenhauer wrote:Show nested quote +On July 28 2024 18:56 ejozl wrote:
I'm not caught up on the discussion, but I just want to jump in on the notion that MVP should be in the top 10 of a GOAT ranking. I'm not sure he should be in the top 15 tbh. I will admit if we talked about GOAT rankings before LotV I would've put him solidly in the top 4, There's Life, TaeJa, MC, MVP, and he's probably solidly above Polt. If you look purely result wise and don't think about eras at all Dark would probably be top 4, Serral, Maru, Rogue and Dark as 4th. But I think many agree that Dark hasn't been as impressive as a top 4, he's more or less sticked around and kept getting solid results. MVP's mark on the scene is more or less like TY's super impressive year, but TY did this in arguably a more difficult era. I would probably rate 2011 about the same as 2017, in terms of competitiveness. This is due to higher talent from the kespa era that was still very much sticking around at this time. But the performance have kept improving ever since the start, so I actually see TY's results as more impressive, not to mention that he didn't benefit from Terran OPness. I doubt many ppl are arguing for TY as GOAT. Mvp still tied for the third most Code S wins behind Maru and Rogue more than a decade after retiring.
Mvp's wins are hard to rate though. For example, if you say "Maru winning three GSLs in one year is historical", than you already de-value Mvp. Because he won three in a year, four in fourteen month. But he of course had like 10(?) chances to do so in that year, considering that GSL used to be a monthly event.
How high would Marus GSL-count be if they never changed the format? 20+?
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United States1939 Posts
On July 29 2024 01:28 Balnazza wrote:Show nested quote +On July 28 2024 21:10 Mizenhauer wrote:On July 28 2024 18:56 ejozl wrote:
I'm not caught up on the discussion, but I just want to jump in on the notion that MVP should be in the top 10 of a GOAT ranking. I'm not sure he should be in the top 15 tbh. I will admit if we talked about GOAT rankings before LotV I would've put him solidly in the top 4, There's Life, TaeJa, MC, MVP, and he's probably solidly above Polt. If you look purely result wise and don't think about eras at all Dark would probably be top 4, Serral, Maru, Rogue and Dark as 4th. But I think many agree that Dark hasn't been as impressive as a top 4, he's more or less sticked around and kept getting solid results. MVP's mark on the scene is more or less like TY's super impressive year, but TY did this in arguably a more difficult era. I would probably rate 2011 about the same as 2017, in terms of competitiveness. This is due to higher talent from the kespa era that was still very much sticking around at this time. But the performance have kept improving ever since the start, so I actually see TY's results as more impressive, not to mention that he didn't benefit from Terran OPness. I doubt many ppl are arguing for TY as GOAT. Mvp still tied for the third most Code S wins behind Maru and Rogue more than a decade after retiring. Mvp's wins are hard to rate though. For example, if you say "Maru winning three GSLs in one year is historical", than you already de-value Mvp. Because he won three in a year, four in fourteen month. But he of course had like 10(?) chances to do so in that year, considering that GSL used to be a monthly event. How high would Marus GSL-count be if they never changed the format? 20+?
The format for Code S has changed so many times, but that doesn't have a ton of bearing here because Mvp played under this format. Just like Maru played in a different era of formatting.
When Mvp was playing, he outpaced his peers by a sizeable margin in Code S titles (it wasn't until 2019 that he was surpassed by Maru) and final appearances (this mark was broken by soO in 2017). MC, NesTea, MMA and others had the same opportunities and the same balance/tournament structure that Mvp dealt with and Mvp left them all in this dust.
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On July 29 2024 01:45 Mizenhauer wrote:Show nested quote +On July 29 2024 01:28 Balnazza wrote:On July 28 2024 21:10 Mizenhauer wrote:On July 28 2024 18:56 ejozl wrote:
I'm not caught up on the discussion, but I just want to jump in on the notion that MVP should be in the top 10 of a GOAT ranking. I'm not sure he should be in the top 15 tbh. I will admit if we talked about GOAT rankings before LotV I would've put him solidly in the top 4, There's Life, TaeJa, MC, MVP, and he's probably solidly above Polt. If you look purely result wise and don't think about eras at all Dark would probably be top 4, Serral, Maru, Rogue and Dark as 4th. But I think many agree that Dark hasn't been as impressive as a top 4, he's more or less sticked around and kept getting solid results. MVP's mark on the scene is more or less like TY's super impressive year, but TY did this in arguably a more difficult era. I would probably rate 2011 about the same as 2017, in terms of competitiveness. This is due to higher talent from the kespa era that was still very much sticking around at this time. But the performance have kept improving ever since the start, so I actually see TY's results as more impressive, not to mention that he didn't benefit from Terran OPness. I doubt many ppl are arguing for TY as GOAT. Mvp still tied for the third most Code S wins behind Maru and Rogue more than a decade after retiring. Mvp's wins are hard to rate though. For example, if you say "Maru winning three GSLs in one year is historical", than you already de-value Mvp. Because he won three in a year, four in fourteen month. But he of course had like 10(?) chances to do so in that year, considering that GSL used to be a monthly event. How high would Marus GSL-count be if they never changed the format? 20+? The format for Code S has changed so many times, but that doesn't have a ton of bearing here because Mvp played under this format. Just like Maru played in a different era of formatting. When Mvp was playing, he outpaced his peers by a sizeable margin in Code S titles (it wasn't until 2019 that he was surpassed by Maru) and final appearances (this mark was broken by soO in 2017). MC, NesTea, MMA and others had the same opportunities and the same balance/tournament structure that Mvp dealt with and Mvp left them all in this dust.
"System" might be the wrong word, but you can't deny that the amount of tournament chances you get in a year clearly influence the statistics. I'm not saying Mvp had it easier or that his GSL wins aren't worth anything, but if you have triple the amount of titles to win than later players and your one year of dominance happens to be in that exact timeframe...it inflates the statistic quite a bit.
If you regulate it back to the much more common "three GSLs per year"-calendar, Mvp basically won one GSL in a year.
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United States1939 Posts
On July 29 2024 02:10 Balnazza wrote:Show nested quote +On July 29 2024 01:45 Mizenhauer wrote:On July 29 2024 01:28 Balnazza wrote:On July 28 2024 21:10 Mizenhauer wrote:On July 28 2024 18:56 ejozl wrote:
I'm not caught up on the discussion, but I just want to jump in on the notion that MVP should be in the top 10 of a GOAT ranking. I'm not sure he should be in the top 15 tbh. I will admit if we talked about GOAT rankings before LotV I would've put him solidly in the top 4, There's Life, TaeJa, MC, MVP, and he's probably solidly above Polt. If you look purely result wise and don't think about eras at all Dark would probably be top 4, Serral, Maru, Rogue and Dark as 4th. But I think many agree that Dark hasn't been as impressive as a top 4, he's more or less sticked around and kept getting solid results. MVP's mark on the scene is more or less like TY's super impressive year, but TY did this in arguably a more difficult era. I would probably rate 2011 about the same as 2017, in terms of competitiveness. This is due to higher talent from the kespa era that was still very much sticking around at this time. But the performance have kept improving ever since the start, so I actually see TY's results as more impressive, not to mention that he didn't benefit from Terran OPness. I doubt many ppl are arguing for TY as GOAT. Mvp still tied for the third most Code S wins behind Maru and Rogue more than a decade after retiring. Mvp's wins are hard to rate though. For example, if you say "Maru winning three GSLs in one year is historical", than you already de-value Mvp. Because he won three in a year, four in fourteen month. But he of course had like 10(?) chances to do so in that year, considering that GSL used to be a monthly event. How high would Marus GSL-count be if they never changed the format? 20+? The format for Code S has changed so many times, but that doesn't have a ton of bearing here because Mvp played under this format. Just like Maru played in a different era of formatting. When Mvp was playing, he outpaced his peers by a sizeable margin in Code S titles (it wasn't until 2019 that he was surpassed by Maru) and final appearances (this mark was broken by soO in 2017). MC, NesTea, MMA and others had the same opportunities and the same balance/tournament structure that Mvp dealt with and Mvp left them all in this dust. "System" might be the wrong word, but you can't deny that the amount of tournament chances you get in a year clearly influence the statistics. I'm not saying Mvp had it easier or that his GSL wins aren't worth anything, but if you have triple the amount of titles to win than later players and your one year of dominance happens to be in that exact timeframe...it inflates the statistic quite a bit. If you regulate it back to the much more common "three GSLs per year"-calendar, Mvp basically won one GSL in a year.
Something no one did during Heart of the Swarm or the first two years of legacy of the void. Actually, I'm not sure if anyone has won Code S three consecutive years. Maru missed in 2020, Rogue missed in 2021, INnoVation won Season 3 of Code S three straight years, but only because there was no Season 3 of Code S in 2016. Zest won s1, ByuN won s2).
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On July 28 2024 21:10 Mizenhauer wrote:Show nested quote +On July 28 2024 18:56 ejozl wrote:
I'm not caught up on the discussion, but I just want to jump in on the notion that MVP should be in the top 10 of a GOAT ranking. I'm not sure he should be in the top 15 tbh. I will admit if we talked about GOAT rankings before LotV I would've put him solidly in the top 4, There's Life, TaeJa, MC, MVP, and he's probably solidly above Polt. If you look purely result wise and don't think about eras at all Dark would probably be top 4, Serral, Maru, Rogue and Dark as 4th. But I think many agree that Dark hasn't been as impressive as a top 4, he's more or less sticked around and kept getting solid results. MVP's mark on the scene is more or less like TY's super impressive year, but TY did this in arguably a more difficult era. I would probably rate 2011 about the same as 2017, in terms of competitiveness. This is due to higher talent from the kespa era that was still very much sticking around at this time. But the performance have kept improving ever since the start, so I actually see TY's results as more impressive, not to mention that he didn't benefit from Terran OPness. I doubt many ppl are arguing for TY as GOAT. Mvp still tied for the third most Code S wins behind Maru and Rogue more than a decade after retiring.
Life got his 3rd GSL in 2015, 3 years after MVP had his. The reason it took 3 years, is because of the influx of Kespa players, Life is the only player to have won a GSL in WoL as well as outside of it. Had the Kespa players been there from the start, not only would MVP not have had his achievements, but they wouldn't have been 2-3 years behind on tournament results.
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Northern Ireland27190 Posts
On July 30 2024 22:37 ejozl wrote:Show nested quote +On July 28 2024 21:10 Mizenhauer wrote:On July 28 2024 18:56 ejozl wrote:
I'm not caught up on the discussion, but I just want to jump in on the notion that MVP should be in the top 10 of a GOAT ranking. I'm not sure he should be in the top 15 tbh. I will admit if we talked about GOAT rankings before LotV I would've put him solidly in the top 4, There's Life, TaeJa, MC, MVP, and he's probably solidly above Polt. If you look purely result wise and don't think about eras at all Dark would probably be top 4, Serral, Maru, Rogue and Dark as 4th. But I think many agree that Dark hasn't been as impressive as a top 4, he's more or less sticked around and kept getting solid results. MVP's mark on the scene is more or less like TY's super impressive year, but TY did this in arguably a more difficult era. I would probably rate 2011 about the same as 2017, in terms of competitiveness. This is due to higher talent from the kespa era that was still very much sticking around at this time. But the performance have kept improving ever since the start, so I actually see TY's results as more impressive, not to mention that he didn't benefit from Terran OPness. I doubt many ppl are arguing for TY as GOAT. Mvp still tied for the third most Code S wins behind Maru and Rogue more than a decade after retiring. Life got his 3rd GSL in 2015, 3 years after MVP had his. The reason it took 3 years, is because of the influx of Kespa players, Life is the only player to have won a GSL in WoL as well as outside of it. Had the Kespa players been there from the start, not only would MVP not have had his achievements, but they wouldn't have been 2-3 years behind on tournament results.
The Kespa players would also have been learning the game from scratch, I mean the whole ecosystem and history of the game would have been incredibly different
Would the eSF teams have even existed and given shots to the players they recruited if Kespa had been in from the start? Maybe Life never gets his shot?
Some alternate histories just throw too many changed variables in there to really predict how they’d actually go.
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Yes, but my main point is that the best players barring Life was 2-3 years behind on their GSL results, Life even royal roaded, so he wasn't much ahead of the kespa players, meaning that of course it took its time to catch up on MVP's results.
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I would also argue that MC was even to ahead of MVP, this is even if we discount 2013+ (the great escape, years,) both in tournament results(a million 2nd\3rd place,) and in prize earnings (the measure of success.)
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United States1939 Posts
On July 31 2024 16:34 ejozl wrote:
I would also argue that MC was even to ahead of MVP, this is even if we discount 2013+ (the great escape, years,) both in tournament results(a million 2nd\3rd place,) and in prize earnings (the measure of success.)
You could argue that, but you would be wrong.
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On July 27 2024 23:33 Moonerz wrote:
Not quite the same but that feels a little like discounting the premier league or the NBA since you would have to live full time in the USA or UK. Basically everyone good enough would have been playing in pro league
Sorry, but that is not a good example. Especially with premier league, it is not like the best player of the world is always playing there. The goat never played there, if you take Messi, or did just play there for some years, if you take CR7.
With the NBA I'm more with you, but in the last years... Let's say the top Europeans made a pretty good showing in the NBA, adapting very fast, you could even say, they did not have to adapt that much, because the difference is not that big.
So yeah, I get what you mean, but first: it is not that all the greatest players without exception play in the premier league (but I admit that probably all the best players play in the NBA), and second: premier league and NBA are the best leagues in the world overall because they pay by far the most money, on average.
Most of the guys playing in those leagues go there because of the money, not because of the competition.
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On August 01 2024 21:43 Rob-Zero wrote:Show nested quote +On July 27 2024 23:33 Moonerz wrote:
Not quite the same but that feels a little like discounting the premier league or the NBA since you would have to live full time in the USA or UK. Basically everyone good enough would have been playing in pro league Sorry, but that is not a good example. Especially with premier league, it is not like the best player of the world is always playing there. The goat never played there, if you take Messi, or did just play there for some years, if you take CR7. With the NBA I'm more with you, but in the last years... Let's say the top Europeans made a pretty good showing in the NBA, adapting very fast, you could even say, they did not have to adapt that much, because the difference is not that big. So yeah, I get what you mean, but first: it is not that all the greatest players without exception play in the premier league (but I admit that probably all the best players play in the NBA), and second: premier league and NBA are the best leagues in the world overall because they pay by far the most money, on average. Most of the guys playing in those leagues go there because of the money, not because of the competition.
Depends on the point beeing made. As a GSL comparison, the Premier League works quite well. Like you said the GOAT (Messi/ Serral  ) isn't from the Premiere League and only 25% of the Champions League winner (here Blizzcon/ Katowice) are PL teams...
So if you point was that the PL isn't that important, it's a good example.
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United States1939 Posts
On August 01 2024 22:02 Harris1st wrote:Show nested quote +On August 01 2024 21:43 Rob-Zero wrote:On July 27 2024 23:33 Moonerz wrote:
Not quite the same but that feels a little like discounting the premier league or the NBA since you would have to live full time in the USA or UK. Basically everyone good enough would have been playing in pro league Sorry, but that is not a good example. Especially with premier league, it is not like the best player of the world is always playing there. The goat never played there, if you take Messi, or did just play there for some years, if you take CR7. With the NBA I'm more with you, but in the last years... Let's say the top Europeans made a pretty good showing in the NBA, adapting very fast, you could even say, they did not have to adapt that much, because the difference is not that big. So yeah, I get what you mean, but first: it is not that all the greatest players without exception play in the premier league (but I admit that probably all the best players play in the NBA), and second: premier league and NBA are the best leagues in the world overall because they pay by far the most money, on average. Most of the guys playing in those leagues go there because of the money, not because of the competition. Depends on the point beeing made. As a GSL comparison, the Premier League works quite well. Like you said the GOAT (Messi/ Serral ) isn't from the Premiere League and only 25% of the Champions League winner (here Blizzcon/ Katowice) are PL teams... So if you point was that the PL isn't that important, it's a good example.
To everyone who uses sports analogies.
STOP USING THEM. NO ONE KNOWS EVERYTHING ABOUT EVERY SPORTS SO, IT CAUSES A LOT OF CONFUSION AMONG THE LESS INITIATED. ON TOP OF THAT, THE ANALOGY IS ALMOST ALWAYS A POORER EXAMPLE OF THE SC2 SITUATION YOU'RE ALREADY DISCUSSING THAN THE SC2 SITAUTION YOU ARE CURRENTLY DISCUSSING ITSELF.
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