On August 03 2023 06:41 Yoshi Kirishima wrote: Soo has anyone talked about this? Apparently when you upgrade Flux Vanes for Void Rays, if you turn on the focus damage they become way slower than 25%. It becomes slower than unupgraded Void Rays with the focus damage on.
Intriguing
One thing I’m sure I’m not alone in wanting to know, how did thermal Lance range get bugged to 10 in the first place, and was left for weeks?
If there’d been some giant engine overhaul I could see wonkiness come out perhaps
It’s such an odd bug, and only affecting thermal Lance, and there haven’t been patches in and around the area for ages.
The Extended Thermal Lance upgrade had an unnecessary leftover line from the max damage range addition of the patch before. This max damage range causes delayed damage to not apply when the target teleports away a great distance (e.g. Stalker blinks away and dies where he blinked to because the damage it received was delayed. Delayed damage needs a second range check to avoid these odd scenarios). The first iteration used the distance to the Colossus, but it was buggy when it was picked up directly after firing. The second iteration fixed this by using the point the Colossus attacked for this distance check making any validation range increases unnecessary and more inaccurate with the upgrade. Thus, it had to be removed.
While merging that change, too many lines were removed causing this upgrade bug. As you can see in the link, the XML is cryptic as you cannot always directly see what is edited without digging deeper.
There won't be an engine overhaul as the people that knew the engine well left a few years ago. I hope for one bug fix, though... (units having greater attack range in some scenarios than intended)
On August 03 2023 05:37 Nebuchad wrote: I just don't really believe that people are honest about this. After years of protoss being quite weak, we had patching and suddenly the game was quite okay, herO and Maxpax won some decent tournaments. This lasted for a few months, there was nowhere near protoss domination in those few months, and then we got patched down again for seemingly no reason, and it's supposed to be some sort of mystery why protoss is doing badly again?
We just had a tourney where the protoss race was stronger than it should have been, by accident, and in that tourney protoss still finished worst race by far. Do you really reckon that if that bug happened on a zerg or terran unit that race wouldn't have handily won the tournament?
I don't think increasing siege tank or lurker range by 1 would've had a huge impact on the outcomes of the tournament, no.
Over the span of a lot of tournaments it'd be different, especially as players thought fo ways to place those units in abusive positions, using that extra range. But in a single tournament rather recently after the bug was introduced? Nah.
Increasing lurker range by 1 would actually be rather significant, because it would give them a 1 range advantage over ghost snipe (it's 10 vs 10 after upgrades at the moment), and I believe it would give them equal range to disruptors as well. And I highly doubt it would take long for Zergs to figure that out, I'd wager most of them are aware of the equal range of lurkers and ghosts. Disruptors are less relevant since they're mostly hard countered by vipers anyway.
On August 02 2023 10:48 Gescom wrote: Lotta balance whine in here when herO and Maxpax win ESL every week...
What does the community need exactly? Two different Protosses to win back to back GSLs?
First: Are you actually comparing the results from weeklys with the results in major tournaments??? Secondly: Look at the results in season 4 in the ESL cups (18 weeklies): KR: 4 wins for herO, 1 for maxpax: EU: 0 wins for herO and 4 for maxpax. AM: 3 wins for maxpax and 0 for herO. Sooooo... not really wins for them every week? Pretty far from it. But even if they would have won even more, it STILL is not logical to compare weeklies with the bigger tournaments. Of course the top players does not prepare and put as much effort into the smaller cups as in a big tournament with much bigger prizepool and this leaves room for a more varying results. And you can also look at who is participating. Its not like Reynor and Serral tune in to play the cups often. Those are just examples, but it also adds to the varying results.
Thirdly: For toss fans at least it would be nice with two different tosses to win back to back for sure But in no world will that happen. It is SEVERAL years now that toss makes some token win in a major tourney, once in a blue moon. So any kind of increase in win rate would be appreciated. But i think that ship has sailed. For older players to give everything they have only to make less than miminum wage is not likely, nor is an influx of new toss players. You have to be at the very top often at the bigger tourneys to make a reasonable income.
But as i said the ship has sailed now. Maybe there will be some freak win for a toss in the future, but I doubt it. But hey. We have the weeklies!
On August 03 2023 05:37 Nebuchad wrote: I just don't really believe that people are honest about this. After years of protoss being quite weak, we had patching and suddenly the game was quite okay, herO and Maxpax won some decent tournaments. This lasted for a few months, there was nowhere near protoss domination in those few months, and then we got patched down again for seemingly no reason, and it's supposed to be some sort of mystery why protoss is doing badly again?
We just had a tourney where the protoss race was stronger than it should have been, by accident, and in that tourney protoss still finished worst race by far. Do you really reckon that if that bug happened on a zerg or terran unit that race wouldn't have handily won the tournament?
I don't think increasing siege tank or lurker range by 1 would've had a huge impact on the outcomes of the tournament, no.
Over the span of a lot of tournaments it'd be different, especially as players thought fo ways to place those units in abusive positions, using that extra range. But in a single tournament rather recently after the bug was introduced? Nah.
I dunno I think range changes, especially for core units are some of the absolute biggest that can be made, specially if it’s a bug that’s gone under the radar
The sheer muscle memory of playing thousands of games engaging at/staying out of range especially of the trio of siege tank/lurker/disruptor where that dynamic is most at play
Collosus is a little less pronounced as it’s not really a siege unit and is engaging with the ball anyway. Even the top players aren’t pulling them back to optimal safe range individually, although I could see the previous 11 range helping in defensive holds against T/Z pushes
If siege tanks to take one example got an extra range in a patch I’d wager TvZ you’d see a few more fiendish tank spots but the range wouldn’t be crazy
PvT and especially TvT at least in the short term I’d wager you’d see a lot of botches against contains on account of people’s gauges being way out of whack.
Even if balance was ultimately eventually better there’d be a big, big adjustment period so as long as a hypothetical patch came out with a sufficient gap to a big tournament so pros can relearn the muscle memory and visual gauges it would be fine.
But I mean to take an extreme example if bio had any alterations to its attack rate/damage point or anything that affected its micro rhythm it would be a HUGE change and I’d wager you’d see atypical micro errors for quite some time after a patch
On August 06 2023 22:56 Charoisaur wrote: Are people forgetting that the Lurker +1 range buff turned them from almost useless to one of the best units in the game?
On August 03 2023 13:27 Vindicare605 wrote: Oh speaking of another bit of gloriously bad Protoss design we have the Void Ray. Arguably the worst designed unit in Starcraft 2 after the Swarm Host. This piece of garbage has been a perfect example of what is wrong with Protoss. This unit serves almost no tactical purpose in an actual game. It has zero micro potential. It was originally designed as a tool for countering capital ships, and then got reworked when its clunky charge up wasn't working out to now it just has an obvious cooldown beam that makes it deal extra damage vs armored. When the Tempest was announced the unit basically lost its one given purpose to a unit that does the same job better.
Its been used as a staple in stupid all ins when it's overtuned and then disappears completely from the meta otherwise.
Oh yea but don't worry we'll be able to fix this unit with numbers tweaks. No we won't. It's a fundamentally broken unit design that will always be a broken unit design until someone completely changes how it works.
Voidray is a great unit to mass for new players as it flies and can shoot at everything.
On August 03 2023 13:27 Vindicare605 wrote: Oh speaking of another bit of gloriously bad Protoss design we have the Void Ray. Arguably the worst designed unit in Starcraft 2 after the Swarm Host. This piece of garbage has been a perfect example of what is wrong with Protoss. This unit serves almost no tactical purpose in an actual game. It has zero micro potential. It was originally designed as a tool for countering capital ships, and then got reworked when its clunky charge up wasn't working out to now it just has an obvious cooldown beam that makes it deal extra damage vs armored. When the Tempest was announced the unit basically lost its one given purpose to a unit that does the same job better.
Its been used as a staple in stupid all ins when it's overtuned and then disappears completely from the meta otherwise.
Oh yea but don't worry we'll be able to fix this unit with numbers tweaks. No we won't. It's a fundamentally broken unit design that will always be a broken unit design until someone completely changes how it works.
Voidray is a great unit to mass for new players as it flies and can shoot at everything.
Not everything is about e-sport.
"Respect the Void Ray"!
1. How many new players are getting into SCII? 2. Do units for new players need to be worthless at higher level play?
On August 03 2023 13:27 Vindicare605 wrote: Oh speaking of another bit of gloriously bad Protoss design we have the Void Ray. Arguably the worst designed unit in Starcraft 2 after the Swarm Host. This piece of garbage has been a perfect example of what is wrong with Protoss. This unit serves almost no tactical purpose in an actual game. It has zero micro potential. It was originally designed as a tool for countering capital ships, and then got reworked when its clunky charge up wasn't working out to now it just has an obvious cooldown beam that makes it deal extra damage vs armored. When the Tempest was announced the unit basically lost its one given purpose to a unit that does the same job better.
Its been used as a staple in stupid all ins when it's overtuned and then disappears completely from the meta otherwise.
Oh yea but don't worry we'll be able to fix this unit with numbers tweaks. No we won't. It's a fundamentally broken unit design that will always be a broken unit design until someone completely changes how it works.
Voidray is a great unit to mass for new players as it flies and can shoot at everything.
Not everything is about e-sport.
"Respect the Void Ray"!
If I play with my friends (they have played like 10 hours of SC2 in their life) I always tell them, take Terran, build Marines -> Win.
On August 03 2023 13:27 Vindicare605 wrote: Oh speaking of another bit of gloriously bad Protoss design we have the Void Ray. Arguably the worst designed unit in Starcraft 2 after the Swarm Host. This piece of garbage has been a perfect example of what is wrong with Protoss. This unit serves almost no tactical purpose in an actual game. It has zero micro potential. It was originally designed as a tool for countering capital ships, and then got reworked when its clunky charge up wasn't working out to now it just has an obvious cooldown beam that makes it deal extra damage vs armored. When the Tempest was announced the unit basically lost its one given purpose to a unit that does the same job better.
Its been used as a staple in stupid all ins when it's overtuned and then disappears completely from the meta otherwise.
Oh yea but don't worry we'll be able to fix this unit with numbers tweaks. No we won't. It's a fundamentally broken unit design that will always be a broken unit design until someone completely changes how it works.
Voidray is a great unit to mass for new players as it flies and can shoot at everything.
Not everything is about e-sport.
"Respect the Void Ray"!
If I play with my friends (they have played like 10 hours of SC2 in their life) I always tell them, take Terran, build Marines -> Win.
Meh. Marines without stutterstep get wrecked badly by banelings.
Who is in charge of the community patch? I've worked as a bug fixer in a game studio. Here is what I can say. You guys seem to be very unprofessional and you hecked up the game twice already. Don't EVER put an untested change on the patch. Even trivial things can have unforseen consequences. ( OBVIOUSLY ) Always TEST your things. Don't patch trivial bug that nobody will ever notice. Be carefull.
There is a need for structure for quality control with someone who says NO, "We won't fix this bug, it's too trivial" and confirmed that everything got tested over again.
I understand the "volonteers" part but you guy MUST be way more professional than you currently are.
You can't submit like 60 fixes that 99.99% of people won't ever notice and at the same time break the game. You just CAN'T. It's not a student project, it's a AAA games with hundred of thousand players.
On August 25 2023 08:16 JeanSimB623 wrote: Who is in charge of the community patch? I've worked as a bug fixer in a game studio. Here is what I can say. You guys seem to be very unprofessional and you hecked up the game twice already. Don't EVER put an untested change on the patch. Even trivial things can have unforseen consequences. ( OBVIOUSLY ) Always TEST your things. Don't patch trivial bug that nobody will ever notice. Be carefull.
There is a need for structure for quality control with someone who says NO, "We won't fix this bug, it's too trivial" and confirmed that everything got tested over again.
I understand the "volonteers" part but you guy MUST be way more professional than you currently are.
You can't submit like 60 fixes that 99.99% of people won't ever notice and at the same time break the game. You just CAN'T. It's not a student project, it's a AAA games with hundred of thousand players.
The community only comes up with the changes, the implementation is obviously still done by Blizzard. And the problem is that all the people that used to work on sc2 and are familiar with the code, have left /moved to another project
On August 25 2023 08:16 JeanSimB623 wrote: Who is in charge of the community patch? I've worked as a bug fixer in a game studio. Here is what I can say. You guys seem to be very unprofessional and you hecked up the game twice already. Don't EVER put an untested change on the patch. Even trivial things can have unforseen consequences. ( OBVIOUSLY ) Always TEST your things. Don't patch trivial bug that nobody will ever notice. Be carefull.
There is a need for structure for quality control with someone who says NO, "We won't fix this bug, it's too trivial" and confirmed that everything got tested over again.
I understand the "volonteers" part but you guy MUST be way more professional than you currently are.
You can't submit like 60 fixes that 99.99% of people won't ever notice and at the same time break the game. You just CAN'T. It's not a student project, it's a AAA games with hundred of thousand players.
The community only comes up with the changes, the implementation is obviously still done by Blizzard. And the problem is that all the people that used to work on sc2 and are familiar with the code, have left /moved to another project
If PTR is no longer usable and changes can't be implemented on test maps then our hands are truly tied and we should all just go play the next RTS.
Also apparently it introduced a bug where shield batteries can't be cancelled while warping
That explains why i cant cancel batteries. But this is actually really big. Batteries are used to block adepts in pvp, and ling runbys and you cancel them constantly....
Could it be possible that before our community submit changes to blizzard, we get sure, on our side that the things get tested properly ?
Our own community-Quality-Assurance team.
It's not that hard but it get super tricky if blizzard put someone in charge that no one can directly talk to and that it is the blizzard person who lack competency and randomly put a melting pot of changes in the main game without even properly test everything.
holy shit this is an insane bug i lost two games to this yesterday (i kept thinking my hotkeys unbinded) and i cant believe theres not more attention around this. without an active dev team why in the $#%^ would you EVER f with QoL things like that.
On August 26 2023 15:14 luxon wrote: holy shit this is an insane bug i lost two games to this yesterday (i kept thinking my hotkeys unbinded) and i cant believe theres not more attention around this. without an active dev team why in the $#%^ would you EVER f with QoL things like that.
They obviously didn't. They made a change in one part of the code to reduce Colossus range, broke the ability to cancel shield batteries. It's the law of unintended consequences at work, not an intentional change. And yeah, you can blame incompetence or bad QA/testing, but the reality is that SC2 is 14-year old codebase and the guys whose part-time, low-priority job it is to maintain it, are not the original developers. You can either have active balancing and the occasional bug, or go legacy mode like BW, where nothing will ever change. The latter is also no guarantee stuff will never break. They are still doing things with BNet 2 for their other games, and in addition, Windows itself can break things.
EPT
But in no world will that happen. It is SEVERAL years now that toss makes some token win in a major tourney, once in a blue moon. So any kind of increase in win rate would be appreciated. But i think that ship has sailed. For older players to give everything they have only to make less than miminum wage is not likely, nor is an influx of new toss players. You have to be at the very top often at the bigger tourneys to make a reasonable income. 
