EPThttps://news.blizzard.com/en-us/starcraft2/23987086/starcraft-ii-5-0-11-hotfix-2-ptr-patch-notes
Among other things:
"Fixed an issue where Extended Thermal Lance raised the weapon range to 10 instead of 9."
SC2 5.0.11 Hotfix 2 PTR - Colossus range bug fixed
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Kreuger
Sweden757 Posts
https://news.blizzard.com/en-us/starcraft2/23987086/starcraft-ii-5-0-11-hotfix-2-ptr-patch-notes Among other things: "Fixed an issue where Extended Thermal Lance raised the weapon range to 10 instead of 9."
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LTCM
174 Posts
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tigera6
3410 Posts
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KarlSiegt
Italy35 Posts
Fixed bug? Protoss need a buff and a miracle. This game deserves to die ASAP, it's totally unbalanced, the Protoss race suck, they're quicker to remove the race. Protoss players should boycott tournaments until they fix everything. User was warned for this post | ||
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Pandain
United States12989 Posts
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Kreuger
Sweden757 Posts
On August 02 2023 03:46 tigera6 wrote: There goes the hope for Protoss making a deep run at Gamers8. Only applied to PTR from what I can read, so if nothing changes the 10 range will be in effect in gamers8 | ||
BluemoonSC
SoCal8910 Posts
On August 02 2023 05:05 Kreuger wrote: Only applied to PTR from what I can read, so if nothing changes the 10 range will be in effect in gamers8 feels like they probably should have mentioned whether or not it was intended a lot sooner, either way | ||
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Kreuger
Sweden757 Posts
On August 02 2023 05:10 BluemoonSC wrote: feels like they probably should have mentioned whether or not it was intended a lot sooner, either way for sure, havent been handled the best way | ||
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Scarlett`
Canada2386 Posts
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Kreuger
Sweden757 Posts
On August 02 2023 05:12 Scarlett` wrote: Gamers8 would be played on a bugfix mod whether or not it was fixed in the live game afaik ah thanks good to know. Toss cant catch a break :p | ||
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BluemoonSC
SoCal8910 Posts
On August 02 2023 05:12 Scarlett` wrote: Gamers8 would be played on a bugfix mod whether or not it was fixed in the live game afaik at least everyone was able to practice knowing what would be in the game for the tournament  | ||
Nakajin
Canada8989 Posts
On August 02 2023 05:12 Scarlett` wrote: Gamers8 would be played on a bugfix mod whether or not it was fixed in the live game afaik Did the players knew that? Because if I'm a protoss players in Gamers 8 right now, I'm about the jump on a plane and just learned that all my pvt preparation is worthless. | ||
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Vindicare605
United States16071 Posts
On August 02 2023 05:59 Nakajin wrote: Did the players knew that? Because if I'm a protoss players in Gamers 8 right now, I'm about the jump on a plane and just learned that all my pvt preparation is worthless. If they were seriously practicing prepared builds centered around a known bug then they have what's coming to them. I doubt, strongly doubt, any of the pros will be caught off guard by this. | ||
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Gina
241 Posts
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Nakajin
Canada8989 Posts
On August 02 2023 06:06 Vindicare605 wrote: If they were seriously practicing prepared builds centered around a known bug then they have what's coming to them. I doubt, strongly doubt, any of the pros will be caught off guard by this. I mean, it been in the game for like a month, you couldn't even practice without it and all the tournaments games were played with it. Nothing pointed to Blizz removing it two days before the biggest SC2 tournament of the year. Also: Fixed an issue where Banelings did not deal damage to its target when it is located on another cliff level. I assume it does not mean what I mean it does? Or do bane have low ground to high ground splash now? Also*2: they nerfed carrier vs ravens lol. Can't complain about them fixing bug thought, nice to see a patch once in a while. | ||
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Xamo
Spain880 Posts
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xSn3
4 Posts
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QOGQOG
834 Posts
On August 02 2023 07:24 xSn3 wrote: "Fixed an issue where the game had 3 races instead of 2." rest assured P is now deader than dead Now? Protoss has been in the gutter for years and kicked back down whenever it seemed like they might get out of it. | ||
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Turbovolver
Australia2394 Posts
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Gescom
Canada3443 Posts
What does the community need exactly? Two different Protosses to win back to back GSLs? | ||
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Zambrah
United States7339 Posts
On August 02 2023 10:48 Gescom wrote: Lotta balance whine in here when herO and Maxpax win ESL every week... What does the community need exactly? Two different Protosses to win back to back GSLs? A Protoss in the Ro4 might be nice, lmao. Been like three seasons since a Protoss got to the Ro4. | ||
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QOGQOG
834 Posts
On August 02 2023 10:48 Gescom wrote: Lotta balance whine in here when herO and Maxpax win ESL every week... What does the community need exactly? Two different Protosses to win back to back GSLs? Protoss to do okay in real tournaments? | ||
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Cyro
United Kingdom20301 Posts
Somebody go total up prize money by race since 2015-11-10 edit: Did it myself w/ liquipedia numbers, easily accessible ones full year 2016-2022 and 2023 to date. The split is: Zerg: 39.37% Terran: 30.90% Protoss: 29.73% 2023 to date is 26% for P, which is a downturn from under-earning to one of the worst earning splits in 14 years of competition. GomTvTvTvT was a scandal with calls all over the community for an urgent balance patch, yet Z and P both took home a larger split of the money that year. | ||
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tigera6
3410 Posts
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moonsjde
48 Posts
On August 02 2023 14:10 tigera6 wrote: I would keep saying Protoss issue in 2023 is the lack of top level talent. People need to realize how much herO single-handedly carried them in 2022. Wtihout him playing at peak level, and MaxPax refuse to play offline, its a disaster for Protoss in these tournaments, the best they could do pretty much is Ro8 and out. Things would be a lot better if we still have Zest, Trap and Parting, or even Zoun, still playing right now. jUsT pLaY LiKe MaRu | ||
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SmoKim
Denmark10305 Posts
On August 02 2023 14:10 tigera6 wrote: I would keep saying Protoss issue in 2023 is the lack of top level talent. People need to realize how much herO single-handedly carried them in 2022. Wtihout him playing at peak level, and MaxPax refuse to play offline, its a disaster for Protoss in these tournaments, the best they could do pretty much is Ro8 and out. Things would be a lot better if we still have Zest, Trap and Parting, or even Zoun, still playing right now. I really hope that Classic and Stats somehow get back in shape | ||
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Harris1st
Germany6945 Posts
On August 02 2023 12:42 Cyro wrote: Somebody go total up prize money by race since 2015-11-10 edit: Did it myself w/ liquipedia numbers, easily accessible ones full year 2016-2022 and 2023 to date. The split is: Zerg: 39.37% Terran: 30.90% Protoss: 29.73% 2023 to date is 26% for P, which is a downturn from under-earning to one of the worst earning splits in 14 years of competition. GomTvTvTvT was a scandal with calls all over the community for an urgent balance patch, yet Z and P both took home a larger split of the money that year. How is Protoss supposed to win money when the best foreign Protoss doesn't show up to offline events (which pay the big bucks) and the best Korean Protosses just seem to randomly choke in games that are winnable | ||
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Poopi
France12891 Posts
On August 02 2023 16:36 Harris1st wrote: How is Protoss supposed to win money when the best foreign Protoss doesn't show up to offline events (which pay the big bucks) and the best Korean Protosses just seem to randomly choke in games that are winnable And Neeb is not pro anymore to get the free NA money. Regarding the fix, it's is good that it is FINALLY fixed, and thankfully gamers8 cared enough about competitive integrity to prepare a special mod that has the bug fixed. | ||
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Fubika24
37 Posts
On August 02 2023 10:48 Gescom wrote: Lotta balance whine in here when herO and Maxpax win ESL every week... What does the community need exactly? Two different Protosses to win back to back GSLs? Some of the very best players don't participate in those weeklies. Also a lot of people won't necessarily play their best builds in a small online cup. And yes, a single toss premier tournament win would be nice. Since the latest nerf patch it hasnt happened yet.. | ||
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Vindicare605
United States16071 Posts
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Charoisaur
Germany15973 Posts
On August 02 2023 14:10 tigera6 wrote: I would keep saying Protoss issue in 2023 is the lack of top level talent. People need to realize how much herO single-handedly carried them in 2022. Wtihout him playing at peak level, and MaxPax refuse to play offline, its a disaster for Protoss in these tournaments, the best they could do pretty much is Ro8 and out. Things would be a lot better if we still have Zest, Trap and Parting, or even Zoun, still playing right now. weird that herO started "slumping" right after the patch hit. Also Classic seems back in shape from his gameplay but balance is holding him back | ||
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Charoisaur
Germany15973 Posts
On August 02 2023 16:36 Harris1st wrote: How is Protoss supposed to win money when the best foreign Protoss doesn't show up to offline events (which pay the big bucks) and the best Korean Protosses just seem to randomly choke in games that are winnable Yeah it's only because MaxPax doesn't participate Oh wait, him participating in tournaments doesn't change anything  AfreecaTV Champions Cup/2WardiTV Spring Championship/2023 | ||
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Durnuu
13320 Posts
On August 02 2023 16:36 Harris1st wrote: How is Protoss supposed to win money when the best foreign Protoss doesn't show up to offline events (which pay the big bucks) and the best Korean Protosses just seem to randomly choke in games that are winnable Doesn't help that protoss is so punishing a single mistake (or "choke") is enough to end the game for you. Zerg can afford many more mistakes on the other hand | ||
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darklycid
3512 Posts
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tigera6
3410 Posts
On August 02 2023 19:30 Charoisaur wrote: weird that herO started "slumping" right after the patch hit. Also Classic seems back in shape from his gameplay but balance is holding him back If you looking at it, herO slumping had little to do with the patch, which nerf Protoss heavily in PvT. He lost both GSL to Zerg (against Solar and Dark) after losing to Cure (who I think would favor against herO without the patch change anyway), then in DH Summer he lost to Elazer and Creator. Recently he also lost to Cure and then Showtime in the Afreeca Cup. If anything, I believe herO has issue beating Cure and also his other matchup arent great at the moment neither and that has little to do with the patch. | ||
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Vindicare605
United States16071 Posts
On August 02 2023 19:56 darklycid wrote: Yea i bet terrans 2019 was also just because maru and ty just started choking and there werent as many good terrans You're not seriously suggesting that the current game's balance is ANYWHERE near as busted as the game was in 2019. Because the game was fucking broken in 2019 dude. The only era that could argued that was as bad or worse than 2019 was either 2010 or 2012. I suppose you could include early LotV 2015 in there but even I wouldn't because every race had something stupidly overpowered about them. Sure all of the match ups were borderline unwatchable but when everyone has something ridiculously unfair it tends to even out. | ||
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darklycid
3512 Posts
On August 02 2023 20:02 Vindicare605 wrote: You're not seriously suggesting that the current game's balance is ANYWHERE near as busted as the game was in 2019. Because the game was fucking broken in 2019 dude. The only era that could argued that was as bad or worse than 2019 was either 2010 or 2012. I suppose you could include early LotV 2015 in there but even I wouldn't because every race had something stupidly overpowered about them. Sure all of the match ups were borderline unwatchable but when everyone has something ridiculously unfair it tends to even out. Well i was more arguing about terrans being on the weak side in 2019 being similar to toss rn, zerg was obv absolutely busted but terran was also struggling vs toss. At the same time this isnt a very serious comment i just wanted to make fun of the ppl saying toss rn is just underperforming because the players are choking again and again etc. | ||
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dbRic1203
Germany2655 Posts
On August 02 2023 19:58 tigera6 wrote: If you looking at it, herO slumping had little to do with the patch, which nerf Protoss heavily in PvT. He lost both GSL to Zerg (against Solar and Dark) after losing to Cure (who I think would favor against herO without the patch change anyway), then in DH Summer he lost to Elazer and Creator. Recently he also lost to Cure and then Showtime in the Afreeca Cup. If anything, I believe herO has issue beating Cure and also his other matchup arent great at the moment neither and that has little to do with the patch. Ok herO is slumping in every matchup imaginable. If that would happen to Serral, there would be other Zergs (Reynor, Dark, Solar, etc.) If that would happen to Maru, there would be other Terrans (Cure, Gumiho, Bunny, etc.) But Toss is so far in the gutter, that there is no one else stepping up, because they are just lagging as far behind the other races as hero is. | ||
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Vindicare605
United States16071 Posts
On August 02 2023 21:00 dbRic1203 wrote: Ok herO is slumping in every matchup imaginable. If that would happen to Serral, there would be other Zergs (Reynor, Dark, Solar, etc.) If that would happen to Maru, there would be other Terrans (Cure, Gumiho, Bunny, etc.) But Toss is so far in the gutter, that there is no one else stepping up, because they are just lagging as far behind the other races as hero is. and when herO wasn't the only Protoss hope there was only Trap who also struggled to win anything because he'd fall apart in finals matches. Protoss has had this problem for a long time of there just not being a strong group of players using the race that has existed for quite a while in LoTV. Even when the race was strong there still weren't that many playing it, and no one was winning in the foreign scene with them. Just more evidence here that the problem is Protoss design. Has been from the start. All of the other issues are just symptoms of the larger sickness. | ||
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RandomPressure
9 Posts
Ok herO is slumping in every matchup imaginable. If that would happen to Serral, there would be other Zergs (Reynor, Dark, Solar, etc.) If that would happen to Maru, there would be other Terrans (Cure, Gumiho, Bunny, etc.) But Toss is so far in the gutter, that there is no one else stepping up, because they are just lagging as far behind the other races as hero is. Two years ago, if Maru slumped as herO is now, Terran would have had no one at the top level, and Serral, Rogue, Reynor and Dark would be the only "championship winning calibre" players out there. 9 months ago (i.e. shortly pre-patch), Bunny, Byun, Gumiho and Cure have all had a series of performances that suggest they have improved dramatically, including: Bunny getting to the finals of Dreamhack Winter, knocking out Serral and narrowly losing to herO in a 4-3 finals. Cure taking GSL 2021 season 3. Gumiho reverse sweeping multiple players to make it to the RO4 of GSL 2022 season 3. Byun beating Serral in the winners bracket of HSC 2022 and winning PigSty2 - beating herO and Dark to do so. All the Terrans who are currently performing really well and making Terran look oppressively overpowered have shown consistent signs of improvement over at least the past year - to the extent that the 5 Terrans in the top 8 of GSL season 1 2023 are the exact same 5 Terrans that also made top 8 of GSL season 3 2022 - on the previous patch and map pool. HerO is in-arguably slumping, or at least performing inconsistently - he's clearly still able to beat top level players, demonstrated by 4-0ing Byun to win Pig's ham cup. But in GSL he's lost non-competitively to Dark and Solar and should have lost to both Nightmare and (at least in game 2) against TY. As much as we would like to pretend otherwise, there is no evidence for a dramatic positive step change in performance from Terrans since the balance patch, nor is there evidence for a dramatic negative step change in performance from Protoss players, apart from herO who has started performing much less consistently against all 3 races. I have no idea what the cause of that specific one is, but it's hardly the first time it's happened to a pro player, and it's definitely not related to balance. | ||
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dbRic1203
Germany2655 Posts
On August 02 2023 22:32 RandomPressure wrote: Two years ago, if Maru slumped as herO is now, Terran would have had no one at the top level, and Serral, Rogue, Reynor and Dark would be the only "championship winning calibre" players out there. 9 months ago (i.e. shortly pre-patch), Bunny, Byun, Gumiho and Cure have all had a series of performances that suggest they have improved dramatically, including: Bunny getting to the finals of Dreamhack Winter, knocking out Serral and narrowly losing to herO in a 4-3 finals. Cure taking GSL 2021 season 3. Gumiho reverse sweeping multiple players to make it to the RO4 of GSL 2022 season 3. Byun beating Serral in the winners bracket of HSC 2022 and winning PigSty2 - beating herO and Dark to do so. All the Terrans who are currently performing really well and making Terran look oppressively overpowered have shown consistent signs of improvement over at least the past year - to the extent that the 5 Terrans in the top 8 of GSL season 1 2023 are the exact same 5 Terrans that also made top 8 of GSL season 3 2022 - on the previous patch and map pool. HerO is in-arguably slumping, or at least performing inconsistently - he's clearly still able to beat top level players, demonstrated by 4-0ing Byun to win Pig's ham cup. But in GSL he's lost non-competitively to Dark and Solar and should have lost to both Nightmare and (at least in game 2) against TY. As much as we would like to pretend otherwise, there is no evidence for a dramatic positive step change in performance from Terrans since the balance patch, nor is there evidence for a dramatic negative step change in performance from Protoss players, apart from herO who has started performing much less consistently against all 3 races. I have no idea what the cause of that specific one is, but it's hardly the first time it's happened to a pro player, and it's definitely not related to balance. So Maru and Serral just happen to be better than herO. And also Reynor, Dark, Solar and Cure, Gumiho, Bunny, Clem,... Just happen to be better than Classic or MaxPax? Yeah total coinsidence that has nothing to do with balance. If you argue like that, there never has been a balance issue ever in this game | ||
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Vindicare605
United States16071 Posts
On August 03 2023 00:35 dbRic1203 wrote: So Maru and Serral just happen to be better than herO. And also Reynor, Dark, Solar and Cure, Gumiho, Bunny, Clem,... Just happen to be better than Classic or MaxPax? Yeah total coinsidence that has nothing to do with balance. If you argue like that, there never has been a balance issue ever in this game I want you to watch the games that herO played in GSL this season. I want you to watch those games and then tell me that he is as good as Maru and Serral. herO is not a consistent player, herO isn't even top 8 in GSL when he isn't on his A game. Maru and Serral are consistently better than everyone else, even when they are "off" their game they are still favorites to win any tournament they are in. There is a significant gap in skill between the top Zergs and Terrans that play this game and the remaining top Protoss players. There just is, to say there isn't is being stubbornly delusional. Now you can very well say that there is something wrong with Protoss design that makes it inherently not as rewarding to top level skill at the pro level. You could say that, I'm saying that, I've been saying that. But please, don't try this charity case arguing that just because someone has a P next to their name that they "Deserve" to be as good as the likes of Serral and Maru. It's just not true. Not all of the pros are as good as each other, that's why this game is competitive. | ||
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QOGQOG
834 Posts
On August 02 2023 12:42 Cyro wrote: Somebody go total up prize money by race since 2015-11-10 edit: Did it myself w/ liquipedia numbers, easily accessible ones full year 2016-2022 and 2023 to date. The split is: Zerg: 39.37% Terran: 30.90% Protoss: 29.73% 2023 to date is 26% for P, which is a downturn from under-earning to one of the worst earning splits in 14 years of competition. GomTvTvTvT was a scandal with calls all over the community for an urgent balance patch, yet Z and P both took home a larger split of the money that year. Wow, Zerg is busted? I'm shocked. And yeah, people get mad when Terran (or once, in Super Tournaments long past, Protoss) do well in a couple tournaments but don't seem to care when it's Zerg. At least when the Zerg players are European--when Dark and Rogue started winning everything the complaints and the nerfs started coming. Rather than looking at prize money over so many years, I'd look at results for the last couple patches. First off, since the last patch, Protoss has won zero Premier events. This is compared to three wins for Terran and two wins for Zerg. Not a huge sample size, obviously, since 5.0.11 has only been around since January 23. So let's go back to the last balance patch, 5.0.9 (5.0.10 was just maps) and add those in. Since March 15 2022 we have 6 Terran wins, 8 Zerg wins, and... 2 Protoss wins. Are there just no top tier Protoss players anymore? It's interesting, whenever people bring up Protoss players struggling it's all "but they win so many open cups!" and "they're over-represented in GM!" But then when it's high end results, suddenly it's just herO and the concept of MaxPax. | ||
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darklycid
3512 Posts
On August 03 2023 00:44 Vindicare605 wrote: I want you to watch the games that herO played in GSL this season. I want you to watch those games and then tell me that he is as good as Maru and Serral. herO is not a consistent player, herO isn't even top 8 in GSL when he isn't on his A game. Maru and Serral are consistently better than everyone else, even when they are "off" their game they are still favorites to win any tournament they are in. There is a significant gap in skill between the top Zergs and Terrans that play this game and the remaining top Protoss players. There just is, to say there isn't is being stubbornly delusional. Now you can very well say that there is something wrong with Protoss design that makes it inherently not as rewarding to top level skill at the pro level. You could say that, I'm saying that, I've been saying that. But please, don't try this charity case arguing that just because someone has a P next to their name that they "Deserve" to be as good as the likes of Serral and Maru. It's just not true. Not all of the pros are as good as each other, that's why this game is competitive. With the 2nd to Last Point, do you maybe think herO e.g. might Just be as good or Close to serral and maru but protoss Design Just makes it Look Like He is inconsistent? Has there ever been a consistent protoss except maybe Trap for a while in lotv? May that be because even If a toss is as good as the top dogs of terran and zerg the Design Just makes it very hard to stay consistent? | ||
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tigera6
3410 Posts
On August 03 2023 00:35 dbRic1203 wrote: So Maru and Serral just happen to be better than herO. And also Reynor, Dark, Solar and Cure, Gumiho, Bunny, Clem,... Just happen to be better than Classic or MaxPax? Yeah total coinsidence that has nothing to do with balance. If you argue like that, there never has been a balance issue ever in this game I mean, herO just simply look worse now than he was last year. Does it because of the balance patch? possibly like 10-15% of it, but he also lost in PvP and PvZ as well, where the patch isnt impacting it that much supposedly. So its hard to say its because of the patch that cause the drop off on his game. And MaxPax is on the same level with everyone outside of Serral, but he just doesnt play offline event and thats just how it is. But for the rest of the Protoss players, yes they are not as good as the top Terran and Zerg currently. If I were to rank top 16 players in the world since last year, about half would be Terran, 5-6 would be Zerg and 2-3 would be Protoss. | ||
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Vindicare605
United States16071 Posts
On August 03 2023 00:58 darklycid wrote: With the 2nd to Last Point, do you maybe think herO e.g. might Just be as good or Close to serral and maru but protoss Design Just makes it Look Like He is inconsistent? Has there ever been a consistent protoss except maybe Trap for a while in lotv? May that be because even If a toss is as good as the top dogs of terran and zerg the Design Just makes it very hard to stay consistent? That's an impossible question to answer because herO is the player he is because of how Protoss is designed, he's successful because he uses the strengths of the race to win easy games, shake up the meta with strong timings. He's never been the kind of player that plays out macro games and wins with superior micro, multitasking, and decision making on a regular basis. He's never been that kind of player. He wins by tricking his opponent and gaming the meta, the same way Protoss has always won. Now would he have been that kind of player if Protoss was designed differently? Maybe, but he could also have been not as successful as he is because he wouldn't have been able to feed off of the current design that rewards tricky play. I just know this. herO has never been in the conversation for "best in the world" at any point in his career. Best Protoss maybe, but never the best player in the world. He's never shown that kind of next level skill that put players like Maru and Serral at the top of the pyramid. | ||
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RandomPressure
9 Posts
On August 03 2023 00:56 QOGQOG wrote: Rather than looking at prize money over so many years, I'd look at results for the last couple patches. First off, since the last patch, Protoss has won zero Premier events. This is compared to three wins for Terran and two wins for Zerg. Not a huge sample size, obviously, since 5.0.11 has only been around since January 23. So let's go back to the last balance patch, 5.0.9 (5.0.10 was just maps) and add those in. Since March 15 2022 we have 6 Terran wins, 8 Zerg wins, and... 2 Protoss wins. Are there just no top tier Protoss players anymore? It's interesting, whenever people bring up Protoss players struggling it's all "but they win so many open cups!" and "they're over-represented in GM!" But then when it's high end results, suddenly it's just herO and the concept of MaxPax. Going off the total number of wins doesn't highlight how shallow the top level competitive player base is. Since the latest patch, Maru has won 2 events, Serral has won 2. Oliveira had a truly miracle run, beating some of the best from each race to win a third. Without that lightning in a bottle moment, either all 5 tournaments this year would have been won by Maru and Serral. Across your expanded time period, we have: Zerg: Serral - 4 wins Reynor - 2 wins Rogue - 1 win (then retirement) Solar - 1 win Terran: Maru - 3 wins Clem - 2 wins (2x ESL EU...) Oliveira - 1 win Protoss: herO - 2 wins So taken at face value, we have between 3 - 5 competitive Zergs (Solar did overperform, Rogue is in retirement, but Dark hasn't won anything), 1-3 competitive Terrans (Clem pre and post patch has really struggled outside ESL EU, Oliveira has yet to show "top 5" level again) and 1-2 competitive Protoss (considering ESL EU is the only premier tournament here that Maxpax, who the evidence currently suggests is the strongest Protoss, will actually attend...) These numbers are completely statistically plausible for the make up of the top competitive players - indeed it would be statistically very surprising if the best players were in fact distributed evenly across all races. If we consider that Terran has multiple players who have returned from military in the last couple of years who have been showing consistent improvement and that conversely Protoss has lost both Zest and Trap to the military - both of whom won tournaments the year before your cut off - we do come back to, much though it sucks for fans of the game, Protoss problems winning premier tournaments are at least as much to do with the lack of good Protoss players as it is anything to do with game balance. | ||
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Melliflue
United Kingdom1389 Posts
On the zerg side, Ragnorak has never been a title contender but this year made the semi-final of the Afreeca Cup of Champions (beating MaxPax to get there) and Katowice. He also made the final of GSL season 3 last year. There are terrans and zergs who have over-achieved compared to their historic level. No protoss has over-achieved in the same way. | ||
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RandomPressure
9 Posts
Maxpax would be the example of a Protoss who has stepped up in a similar way, having got consistently better. This year he's repeatedly taking series off Maru, won Pig Sty, got to the finals of ESL EU and is one of three people to have taken a match against Serral since Katowice - which is not a bad resume to have collected for someone who doesn't play on LAN! Protoss's such as Creator and Astrea have notable over-achivements in the past year... | ||
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Moonerz
United States446 Posts
I thought that was a bit quick on the nerf hammer. I don't think it was that oppressive for Zerg to deal with but admittedly I don't really play much Zerg. It was especially quick when you consider the blatantly op nydus patch that we had to play kato on before we were allowed to determine it was op. | ||
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THERIDDLER
Canada119 Posts
On August 03 2023 00:35 dbRic1203 wrote: So Maru and Serral just happen to be better than herO. And also Reynor, Dark, Solar and Cure, Gumiho, Bunny, Clem,... Just happen to be better than Classic or MaxPax? Yeah total coinsidence that has nothing to do with balance. If you argue like that, there never has been a balance issue ever in this game WOW its almost as if there wasn't a divine entity that created 3 humans with exactly equal skill at a video game for each race with pixie dust! No way! How could different humans have different skill levels???? Every protoss player knows hero is on the same level as maru and serral, and maxhax and classic are on the same levels as dark rogue cure byun etc! | ||
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Durnuu
13320 Posts
On August 03 2023 04:24 THERIDDLER wrote: WOW its almost as if there wasn't a divine entity that created 3 humans with exactly equal skill at a video game for each race with pixie dust! No way! How could different humans have different skill levels???? Every protoss player knows hero is on the same level as maru and serral, and maxhax and classic are on the same levels as dark rogue cure byun etc! Glad someone has the BALLS to say zerg and terran players are just better Hopefully you had the same opinion in 2014 with its protoss dominance! | ||
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THERIDDLER
Canada119 Posts
On August 03 2023 04:32 Durnuu wrote: Glad someone has the BALLS to say zerg and terran players are just better Hopefully you had the same opinion in 2014 with its protoss dominance! Absolutely, I 100% agree the imaginary protoss player that maintains dominance over maru across multiple years and tens of patches (like how maru does over hero) is without a doubt the better player! | ||
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QOGQOG
834 Posts
On August 03 2023 04:24 THERIDDLER wrote: WOW its almost as if there wasn't a divine entity that created 3 humans with exactly equal skill at a video game for each race with pixie dust! No way! How could different humans have different skill levels???? Every protoss player knows hero is on the same level as maru and serral, and maxhax and classic are on the same levels as dark rogue cure byun etc! So nothing can ever be said about balance, it's just player talent always all the time. Great insight. | ||
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THERIDDLER
Canada119 Posts
On August 03 2023 04:45 QOGQOG wrote: So nothing can ever be said about balance, it's just player talent always all the time. Great insight. Litearlly the exact opposite of what I said. When the players are of exact equal skill, as every protoss player I've talked to agrees with, its ALL about balance. Don't even try to argue this with me, I've got all of the protoss conclave to back me up. | ||
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crbox
Canada1180 Posts
On August 02 2023 04:10 KarlSiegt wrote: Really? Fixed bug? Protoss need a buff and a miracle. This game deserves to die ASAP, it's totally unbalanced, the Protoss race suck, they're quicker to remove the race. Protoss players should boycott tournaments until they fix everything. User was warned for this post Drink a bud light | ||
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Durnuu
13320 Posts
On August 03 2023 04:40 THERIDDLER wrote: Absolutely, I 100% agree the imaginary protoss player that maintains dominance over maru across multiple years and tens of patches (like how maru does over hero) is without a doubt the better player! Glad we implicitly agree on the "good" zergs being patchzergs  | ||
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WombaT
Northern Ireland25618 Posts
On August 03 2023 04:45 QOGQOG wrote: So nothing can ever be said about balance, it's just player talent always all the time. Great insight. It’s not as if Classic, Stats weren’t previously at the absolute top of the game, and herO much more recently. And that the Protoss contingent doesn’t have really accomplished BW players. I think it’s far less a case of players lacking skill and more one that their chosen race somewhat handicaps their ability to show it, especially mechanically. Not something you’re going to see radically change at this stage in the SC2 lifecycle, that’s too much to hope. But be competitive in the standard SC2 Protoss sense of mixing defensive macro with the Big Book of Protoss BS is something manageable by tweaks. At present the race feels super fragile | ||
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Nebuchad
Switzerland12261 Posts
We just had a tourney where the protoss race was stronger than it should have been, by accident, and in that tourney protoss still finished worst race by far. Do you really reckon that if that bug happened on a zerg or terran unit that race wouldn't have handily won the tournament? | ||
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Cyro
United Kingdom20301 Posts
On August 02 2023 16:36 Harris1st wrote: How is Protoss supposed to win money when the best foreign Protoss doesn't show up to offline events (which pay the big bucks) and the best Korean Protosses just seem to randomly choke in games that are winnable What essentially boils down to [Protoss players just didn't try / play well for 8 years, but players of the other races did] isn't a very good argument. We're talking about hundreds of tournaments and tens of thousands of games here. Chokes and errors are used to blame certain players while they're brushed under the rug for others, but the record averages out and speaks for itself | ||
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Athenau
569 Posts
On August 03 2023 05:55 Cyro wrote: What essentially boils down to [Protoss players just didn't try / play well for 8 years, but players of the other races did] isn't a very good argument. We're talking about hundreds of tournaments and tens of thousands of games here. Chokes and errors are used to blame certain players while they're brushed under the rug for others, but the record averages out and speaks for itself Protoss is underpowered, but I don't think this has been a constant throughout LotV. If you look at earnings, there have been plenty of years where Protoss was well represented at the top-level. It's the last couple of years where Protoss has sucked, and the patch made it worse. | ||
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Poopi
France12891 Posts
On August 03 2023 02:36 Melliflue wrote: I have frequently seen people argue that protoss simply has fewer top pros, and they have lost more to military service, but it doesn't seem true to me. Terran lost Innovation and TY but others have stepped up. Cure has made been in the semi-final of both GSLs this year. Bunny made one, as did Byun and Gumiho. Oliviera won Katowice. On the zerg side, Ragnorak has never been a title contender but this year made the semi-final of the Afreeca Cup of Champions (beating MaxPax to get there) and Katowice. He also made the final of GSL season 3 last year. There are terrans and zergs who have over-achieved compared to their historic level. No protoss has over-achieved in the same way. MaxPax has overachieved, Creator improved as well, Zoun to some extent. | ||
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Yoshi Kirishima
United States10347 Posts
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Charoisaur
Germany15973 Posts
On August 03 2023 01:06 tigera6 wrote: I mean, herO just simply look worse now than he was last year. Does it because of the balance patch? possibly like 10-15% of it, but he also lost in PvP and PvZ as well, where the patch isnt impacting it that much supposedly. So its hard to say its because of the patch that cause the drop off on his game. And MaxPax is on the same level with everyone outside of Serral, but he just doesnt play offline event and thats just how it is. But for the rest of the Protoss players, yes they are not as good as the top Terran and Zerg currently. If I were to rank top 16 players in the world since last year, about half would be Terran, 5-6 would be Zerg and 2-3 would be Protoss. In PvZ the herO style got mostly figured out so there isn't a reliable way to win for Protoss anymore. | ||
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WombaT
Northern Ireland25618 Posts
On August 03 2023 06:41 Yoshi Kirishima wrote: Soo has anyone talked about this? Apparently when you upgrade Flux Vanes for Void Rays, if you turn on the focus damage they become way slower than 25%. It becomes slower than unupgraded Void Rays with the focus damage on. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=43LyGoFjhlE Intriguing One thing I’m sure I’m not alone in wanting to know, how did thermal Lance range get bugged to 10 in the first place, and was left for weeks? If there’d been some giant engine overhaul I could see wonkiness come out perhaps It’s such an odd bug, and only affecting thermal Lance, and there haven’t been patches in and around the area for ages. | ||
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Turbovolver
Australia2394 Posts
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Vindicare605
United States16071 Posts
Its been used as a staple in stupid all ins when it's overtuned and then disappears completely from the meta otherwise. Oh yea but don't worry we'll be able to fix this unit with numbers tweaks. No we won't. It's a fundamentally broken unit design that will always be a broken unit design until someone completely changes how it works. | ||
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Jerubaal
United States7684 Posts
On August 03 2023 13:27 Vindicare605 wrote: Oh speaking of another bit of gloriously bad Protoss design we have the Void Ray. Arguably the worst designed unit in Starcraft 2 after the Swarm Host. This piece of garbage has been a perfect example of what is wrong with Protoss. This unit serves almost no tactical purpose in an actual game. It has zero micro potential. It was originally designed as a tool for countering capital ships, and then got reworked when its clunky charge up wasn't working out to now it just has an obvious cooldown beam that makes it deal extra damage vs armored. When the Tempest was announced the unit basically lost its one given purpose to a unit that does the same job better. Its been used as a staple in stupid all ins when it's overtuned and then disappears completely from the meta otherwise. Oh yea but don't worry we'll be able to fix this unit with numbers tweaks. No we won't. It's a fundamentally broken unit design that will always be a broken unit design until someone completely changes how it works. As much as I agree with 99% of this post, I don't know that this is entirely the fault of the void ray's unit design. It is a bit emblematic of Protoss design in general though. The response to this design is that we must "balance" all of the Protoss units. It's fine, though, if Z and T have these strong units because they're so weak, but zealots and stalkers are just too strong. Remember, we removed VR from the game last time because mid grandmaster Zerg couldnt' be asked to keep vision on their own natural. | ||
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Ahli
Germany355 Posts
On August 03 2023 08:33 WombaT wrote: Intriguing One thing I’m sure I’m not alone in wanting to know, how did thermal Lance range get bugged to 10 in the first place, and was left for weeks? If there’d been some giant engine overhaul I could see wonkiness come out perhaps It’s such an odd bug, and only affecting thermal Lance, and there haven’t been patches in and around the area for ages. The patch downloaded in April had all of the changes that recently went live: https://github.com/Ahli/sc2xml/commit/f2936115d27143a235c017ce51cf1fa4f14844f9#r109805490 The Extended Thermal Lance upgrade had an unnecessary leftover line from the max damage range addition of the patch before. This max damage range causes delayed damage to not apply when the target teleports away a great distance (e.g. Stalker blinks away and dies where he blinked to because the damage it received was delayed. Delayed damage needs a second range check to avoid these odd scenarios). The first iteration used the distance to the Colossus, but it was buggy when it was picked up directly after firing. The second iteration fixed this by using the point the Colossus attacked for this distance check making any validation range increases unnecessary and more inaccurate with the upgrade. Thus, it had to be removed. While merging that change, too many lines were removed causing this upgrade bug. As you can see in the link, the XML is cryptic as you cannot always directly see what is edited without digging deeper. There won't be an engine overhaul as the people that knew the engine well left a few years ago. I hope for one bug fix, though... (units having greater attack range in some scenarios than intended) | ||
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Acrofales
Spain18048 Posts
On August 03 2023 05:37 Nebuchad wrote: I just don't really believe that people are honest about this. After years of protoss being quite weak, we had patching and suddenly the game was quite okay, herO and Maxpax won some decent tournaments. This lasted for a few months, there was nowhere near protoss domination in those few months, and then we got patched down again for seemingly no reason, and it's supposed to be some sort of mystery why protoss is doing badly again? We just had a tourney where the protoss race was stronger than it should have been, by accident, and in that tourney protoss still finished worst race by far. Do you really reckon that if that bug happened on a zerg or terran unit that race wouldn't have handily won the tournament? I don't think increasing siege tank or lurker range by 1 would've had a huge impact on the outcomes of the tournament, no. Over the span of a lot of tournaments it'd be different, especially as players thought fo ways to place those units in abusive positions, using that extra range. But in a single tournament rather recently after the bug was introduced? Nah. | ||
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WombaT
Northern Ireland25618 Posts
On August 06 2023 17:05 Ahli wrote: The patch downloaded in April had all of the changes that recently went live: https://github.com/Ahli/sc2xml/commit/f2936115d27143a235c017ce51cf1fa4f14844f9#r109805490 The Extended Thermal Lance upgrade had an unnecessary leftover line from the max damage range addition of the patch before. This max damage range causes delayed damage to not apply when the target teleports away a great distance (e.g. Stalker blinks away and dies where he blinked to because the damage it received was delayed. Delayed damage needs a second range check to avoid these odd scenarios). The first iteration used the distance to the Colossus, but it was buggy when it was picked up directly after firing. The second iteration fixed this by using the point the Colossus attacked for this distance check making any validation range increases unnecessary and more inaccurate with the upgrade. Thus, it had to be removed. While merging that change, too many lines were removed causing this upgrade bug. As you can see in the link, the XML is cryptic as you cannot always directly see what is edited without digging deeper. There won't be an engine overhaul as the people that knew the engine well left a few years ago. I hope for one bug fix, though... (units having greater attack range in some scenarios than intended) Great info thanks for the explanation! | ||
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Durnuu
13320 Posts
On August 06 2023 18:49 Acrofales wrote: I don't think increasing siege tank or lurker range by 1 would've had a huge impact on the outcomes of the tournament, no. Over the span of a lot of tournaments it'd be different, especially as players thought fo ways to place those units in abusive positions, using that extra range. But in a single tournament rather recently after the bug was introduced? Nah. Increasing lurker range by 1 would actually be rather significant, because it would give them a 1 range advantage over ghost snipe (it's 10 vs 10 after upgrades at the moment), and I believe it would give them equal range to disruptors as well. And I highly doubt it would take long for Zergs to figure that out, I'd wager most of them are aware of the equal range of lurkers and ghosts. Disruptors are less relevant since they're mostly hard countered by vipers anyway. | ||
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aringadingding
476 Posts
On August 02 2023 10:48 Gescom wrote: Lotta balance whine in here when herO and Maxpax win ESL every week... What does the community need exactly? Two different Protosses to win back to back GSLs? First: Are you actually comparing the results from weeklys with the results in major tournaments??? Secondly: Look at the results in season 4 in the ESL cups (18 weeklies): KR: 4 wins for herO, 1 for maxpax: EU: 0 wins for herO and 4 for maxpax. AM: 3 wins for maxpax and 0 for herO. Sooooo... not really wins for them every week? Pretty far from it. But even if they would have won even more, it STILL is not logical to compare weeklies with the bigger tournaments. Of course the top players does not prepare and put as much effort into the smaller cups as in a big tournament with much bigger prizepool and this leaves room for a more varying results. And you can also look at who is participating. Its not like Reynor and Serral tune in to play the cups often. Those are just examples, but it also adds to the varying results. Thirdly: For toss fans at least it would be nice with two different tosses to win back to back for sure But in no world will that happen. It is SEVERAL years now that toss makes some token win in a major tourney, once in a blue moon. So any kind of increase in win rate would be appreciated. But i think that ship has sailed. For older players to give everything they have only to make less than miminum wage is not likely, nor is an influx of new toss players. You have to be at the very top often at the bigger tourneys to make a reasonable income. But as i said the ship has sailed now. Maybe there will be some freak win for a toss in the future, but I doubt it. But hey. We have the weeklies! | ||
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WombaT
Northern Ireland25618 Posts
On August 06 2023 18:49 Acrofales wrote: I don't think increasing siege tank or lurker range by 1 would've had a huge impact on the outcomes of the tournament, no. Over the span of a lot of tournaments it'd be different, especially as players thought fo ways to place those units in abusive positions, using that extra range. But in a single tournament rather recently after the bug was introduced? Nah. I dunno I think range changes, especially for core units are some of the absolute biggest that can be made, specially if it’s a bug that’s gone under the radar The sheer muscle memory of playing thousands of games engaging at/staying out of range especially of the trio of siege tank/lurker/disruptor where that dynamic is most at play Collosus is a little less pronounced as it’s not really a siege unit and is engaging with the ball anyway. Even the top players aren’t pulling them back to optimal safe range individually, although I could see the previous 11 range helping in defensive holds against T/Z pushes If siege tanks to take one example got an extra range in a patch I’d wager TvZ you’d see a few more fiendish tank spots but the range wouldn’t be crazy PvT and especially TvT at least in the short term I’d wager you’d see a lot of botches against contains on account of people’s gauges being way out of whack. Even if balance was ultimately eventually better there’d be a big, big adjustment period so as long as a hypothetical patch came out with a sufficient gap to a big tournament so pros can relearn the muscle memory and visual gauges it would be fine. But I mean to take an extreme example if bio had any alterations to its attack rate/damage point or anything that affected its micro rhythm it would be a HUGE change and I’d wager you’d see atypical micro errors for quite some time after a patch | ||
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Charoisaur
Germany15973 Posts
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Durnuu
13320 Posts
On August 06 2023 22:56 Charoisaur wrote: Are people forgetting that the Lurker +1 range buff turned them from almost useless to one of the best units in the game? Or the infamous Queen range buff | ||
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Slydie
1923 Posts
On August 03 2023 13:27 Vindicare605 wrote: Oh speaking of another bit of gloriously bad Protoss design we have the Void Ray. Arguably the worst designed unit in Starcraft 2 after the Swarm Host. This piece of garbage has been a perfect example of what is wrong with Protoss. This unit serves almost no tactical purpose in an actual game. It has zero micro potential. It was originally designed as a tool for countering capital ships, and then got reworked when its clunky charge up wasn't working out to now it just has an obvious cooldown beam that makes it deal extra damage vs armored. When the Tempest was announced the unit basically lost its one given purpose to a unit that does the same job better. Its been used as a staple in stupid all ins when it's overtuned and then disappears completely from the meta otherwise. Oh yea but don't worry we'll be able to fix this unit with numbers tweaks. No we won't. It's a fundamentally broken unit design that will always be a broken unit design until someone completely changes how it works. Voidray is a great unit to mass for new players as it flies and can shoot at everything. Not everything is about e-sport. "Respect the Void Ray"! | ||
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QOGQOG
834 Posts
On August 07 2023 00:19 Slydie wrote: Voidray is a great unit to mass for new players as it flies and can shoot at everything. Not everything is about e-sport. "Respect the Void Ray"! 1. How many new players are getting into SCII? 2. Do units for new players need to be worthless at higher level play? | ||
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Harris1st
Germany6945 Posts
On August 07 2023 00:19 Slydie wrote: Voidray is a great unit to mass for new players as it flies and can shoot at everything. Not everything is about e-sport. "Respect the Void Ray"! If I play with my friends (they have played like 10 hours of SC2 in their life) I always tell them, take Terran, build Marines -> Win. | ||
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Acrofales
Spain18048 Posts
On August 07 2023 16:21 Harris1st wrote: If I play with my friends (they have played like 10 hours of SC2 in their life) I always tell them, take Terran, build Marines -> Win. Meh. Marines without stutterstep get wrecked badly by banelings. | ||
Waxangel
United States33431 Posts
https://news.blizzard.com/en-us/starcraft2/23987086/starcraft-ii-5-0-11-hotfix-2-patch-notes Also apparently it introduced a bug where shield batteries can't be cancelled while warping | ||
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WombaT
Northern Ireland25618 Posts
On August 23 2023 08:11 Waxangel wrote: Patch is now live : https://news.blizzard.com/en-us/starcraft2/23987086/starcraft-ii-5-0-11-hotfix-2-patch-notes Also apparently it introduced a bug where shield batteries can't be cancelled while warping Ffs… Haha | ||
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Yoshi Kirishima
United States10347 Posts
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JeanSimB623
7 Posts
I've worked as a bug fixer in a game studio. Here is what I can say. You guys seem to be very unprofessional and you hecked up the game twice already. Don't EVER put an untested change on the patch. Even trivial things can have unforseen consequences. ( OBVIOUSLY ) Always TEST your things. Don't patch trivial bug that nobody will ever notice. Be carefull. There is a need for structure for quality control with someone who says NO, "We won't fix this bug, it's too trivial" and confirmed that everything got tested over again. I understand the "volonteers" part but you guy MUST be way more professional than you currently are. You can't submit like 60 fixes that 99.99% of people won't ever notice and at the same time break the game. You just CAN'T. It's not a student project, it's a AAA games with hundred of thousand players. | ||
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Charoisaur
Germany15973 Posts
On August 25 2023 08:16 JeanSimB623 wrote: Who is in charge of the community patch? I've worked as a bug fixer in a game studio. Here is what I can say. You guys seem to be very unprofessional and you hecked up the game twice already. Don't EVER put an untested change on the patch. Even trivial things can have unforseen consequences. ( OBVIOUSLY ) Always TEST your things. Don't patch trivial bug that nobody will ever notice. Be carefull. There is a need for structure for quality control with someone who says NO, "We won't fix this bug, it's too trivial" and confirmed that everything got tested over again. I understand the "volonteers" part but you guy MUST be way more professional than you currently are. You can't submit like 60 fixes that 99.99% of people won't ever notice and at the same time break the game. You just CAN'T. It's not a student project, it's a AAA games with hundred of thousand players. The community only comes up with the changes, the implementation is obviously still done by Blizzard. And the problem is that all the people that used to work on sc2 and are familiar with the code, have left /moved to another project | ||
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Cyro
United Kingdom20301 Posts
On August 25 2023 16:57 Charoisaur wrote: The community only comes up with the changes, the implementation is obviously still done by Blizzard. And the problem is that all the people that used to work on sc2 and are familiar with the code, have left /moved to another project If PTR is no longer usable and changes can't be implemented on test maps then our hands are truly tied and we should all just go play the next RTS. | ||
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[Phantom]
Mexico2170 Posts
On August 23 2023 08:11 Waxangel wrote: Patch is now live : https://news.blizzard.com/en-us/starcraft2/23987086/starcraft-ii-5-0-11-hotfix-2-patch-notes Also apparently it introduced a bug where shield batteries can't be cancelled while warping That explains why i cant cancel batteries. But this is actually really big. Batteries are used to block adepts in pvp, and ling runbys and you cancel them constantly.... | ||
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JeanSimB623
7 Posts
Our own community-Quality-Assurance team. It's not that hard but it get super tricky if blizzard put someone in charge that no one can directly talk to and that it is the blizzard person who lack competency and randomly put a melting pot of changes in the main game without even properly test everything. | ||
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luxon
United States112 Posts
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Acrofales
Spain18048 Posts
On August 26 2023 15:14 luxon wrote: holy shit this is an insane bug i lost two games to this yesterday (i kept thinking my hotkeys unbinded) and i cant believe theres not more attention around this. without an active dev team why in the $#%^ would you EVER f with QoL things like that. They obviously didn't. They made a change in one part of the code to reduce Colossus range, broke the ability to cancel shield batteries. It's the law of unintended consequences at work, not an intentional change. And yeah, you can blame incompetence or bad QA/testing, but the reality is that SC2 is 14-year old codebase and the guys whose part-time, low-priority job it is to maintain it, are not the original developers. You can either have active balancing and the occasional bug, or go legacy mode like BW, where nothing will ever change. The latter is also no guarantee stuff will never break. They are still doing things with BNet 2 for their other games, and in addition, Windows itself can break things. | ||
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