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Zambrah
United States7393 Posts
On August 02 2023 10:48 Gescom wrote: Lotta balance whine in here when herO and Maxpax win ESL every week... What does the community need exactly? Two different Protosses to win back to back GSLs? A Protoss in the Ro4 might be nice, lmao. Been like three seasons since a Protoss got to the Ro4. | ||
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QOGQOG
834 Posts
On August 02 2023 10:48 Gescom wrote: Lotta balance whine in here when herO and Maxpax win ESL every week... What does the community need exactly? Two different Protosses to win back to back GSLs? Protoss to do okay in real tournaments? | ||
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Cyro
United Kingdom20345 Posts
Somebody go total up prize money by race since 2015-11-10 edit: Did it myself w/ liquipedia numbers, easily accessible ones full year 2016-2022 and 2023 to date. The split is: Zerg: 39.37% Terran: 30.90% Protoss: 29.73% 2023 to date is 26% for P, which is a downturn from under-earning to one of the worst earning splits in 14 years of competition. GomTvTvTvT was a scandal with calls all over the community for an urgent balance patch, yet Z and P both took home a larger split of the money that year. | ||
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tigera6
3516 Posts
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moonsjde
48 Posts
On August 02 2023 14:10 tigera6 wrote: I would keep saying Protoss issue in 2023 is the lack of top level talent. People need to realize how much herO single-handedly carried them in 2022. Wtihout him playing at peak level, and MaxPax refuse to play offline, its a disaster for Protoss in these tournaments, the best they could do pretty much is Ro8 and out. Things would be a lot better if we still have Zest, Trap and Parting, or even Zoun, still playing right now. jUsT pLaY LiKe MaRu | ||
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SmoKim
Denmark10307 Posts
On August 02 2023 14:10 tigera6 wrote: I would keep saying Protoss issue in 2023 is the lack of top level talent. People need to realize how much herO single-handedly carried them in 2022. Wtihout him playing at peak level, and MaxPax refuse to play offline, its a disaster for Protoss in these tournaments, the best they could do pretty much is Ro8 and out. Things would be a lot better if we still have Zest, Trap and Parting, or even Zoun, still playing right now. I really hope that Classic and Stats somehow get back in shape | ||
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Harris1st
Germany7439 Posts
On August 02 2023 12:42 Cyro wrote: Somebody go total up prize money by race since 2015-11-10 edit: Did it myself w/ liquipedia numbers, easily accessible ones full year 2016-2022 and 2023 to date. The split is: Zerg: 39.37% Terran: 30.90% Protoss: 29.73% 2023 to date is 26% for P, which is a downturn from under-earning to one of the worst earning splits in 14 years of competition. GomTvTvTvT was a scandal with calls all over the community for an urgent balance patch, yet Z and P both took home a larger split of the money that year. How is Protoss supposed to win money when the best foreign Protoss doesn't show up to offline events (which pay the big bucks) and the best Korean Protosses just seem to randomly choke in games that are winnable | ||
Poopi
France13023 Posts
On August 02 2023 16:36 Harris1st wrote: How is Protoss supposed to win money when the best foreign Protoss doesn't show up to offline events (which pay the big bucks) and the best Korean Protosses just seem to randomly choke in games that are winnable And Neeb is not pro anymore to get the free NA money. Regarding the fix, it's is good that it is FINALLY fixed, and thankfully gamers8 cared enough about competitive integrity to prepare a special mod that has the bug fixed. | ||
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Fubika24
37 Posts
On August 02 2023 10:48 Gescom wrote: Lotta balance whine in here when herO and Maxpax win ESL every week... What does the community need exactly? Two different Protosses to win back to back GSLs? Some of the very best players don't participate in those weeklies. Also a lot of people won't necessarily play their best builds in a small online cup. And yes, a single toss premier tournament win would be nice. Since the latest nerf patch it hasnt happened yet.. | ||
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Vindicare605
United States16127 Posts
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Charoisaur
Germany16103 Posts
On August 02 2023 14:10 tigera6 wrote: I would keep saying Protoss issue in 2023 is the lack of top level talent. People need to realize how much herO single-handedly carried them in 2022. Wtihout him playing at peak level, and MaxPax refuse to play offline, its a disaster for Protoss in these tournaments, the best they could do pretty much is Ro8 and out. Things would be a lot better if we still have Zest, Trap and Parting, or even Zoun, still playing right now. weird that herO started "slumping" right after the patch hit. Also Classic seems back in shape from his gameplay but balance is holding him back | ||
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Charoisaur
Germany16103 Posts
On August 02 2023 16:36 Harris1st wrote: How is Protoss supposed to win money when the best foreign Protoss doesn't show up to offline events (which pay the big bucks) and the best Korean Protosses just seem to randomly choke in games that are winnable Yeah it's only because MaxPax doesn't participate Oh wait, him participating in tournaments doesn't change anything  AfreecaTV Champions Cup/2WardiTV Spring Championship/2023 | ||
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Durnuu
13326 Posts
On August 02 2023 16:36 Harris1st wrote: How is Protoss supposed to win money when the best foreign Protoss doesn't show up to offline events (which pay the big bucks) and the best Korean Protosses just seem to randomly choke in games that are winnable Doesn't help that protoss is so punishing a single mistake (or "choke") is enough to end the game for you. Zerg can afford many more mistakes on the other hand  | ||
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darklycid
3562 Posts
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tigera6
3516 Posts
On August 02 2023 19:30 Charoisaur wrote: weird that herO started "slumping" right after the patch hit. Also Classic seems back in shape from his gameplay but balance is holding him back If you looking at it, herO slumping had little to do with the patch, which nerf Protoss heavily in PvT. He lost both GSL to Zerg (against Solar and Dark) after losing to Cure (who I think would favor against herO without the patch change anyway), then in DH Summer he lost to Elazer and Creator. Recently he also lost to Cure and then Showtime in the Afreeca Cup. If anything, I believe herO has issue beating Cure and also his other matchup arent great at the moment neither and that has little to do with the patch. | ||
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Vindicare605
United States16127 Posts
On August 02 2023 19:56 darklycid wrote: Yea i bet terrans 2019 was also just because maru and ty just started choking and there werent as many good terrans You're not seriously suggesting that the current game's balance is ANYWHERE near as busted as the game was in 2019. Because the game was fucking broken in 2019 dude. The only era that could argued that was as bad or worse than 2019 was either 2010 or 2012. I suppose you could include early LotV 2015 in there but even I wouldn't because every race had something stupidly overpowered about them. Sure all of the match ups were borderline unwatchable but when everyone has something ridiculously unfair it tends to even out. | ||
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darklycid
3562 Posts
On August 02 2023 20:02 Vindicare605 wrote: You're not seriously suggesting that the current game's balance is ANYWHERE near as busted as the game was in 2019. Because the game was fucking broken in 2019 dude. The only era that could argued that was as bad or worse than 2019 was either 2010 or 2012. I suppose you could include early LotV 2015 in there but even I wouldn't because every race had something stupidly overpowered about them. Sure all of the match ups were borderline unwatchable but when everyone has something ridiculously unfair it tends to even out. Well i was more arguing about terrans being on the weak side in 2019 being similar to toss rn, zerg was obv absolutely busted but terran was also struggling vs toss. At the same time this isnt a very serious comment i just wanted to make fun of the ppl saying toss rn is just underperforming because the players are choking again and again etc. | ||
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dbRic1203
Germany2655 Posts
On August 02 2023 19:58 tigera6 wrote: If you looking at it, herO slumping had little to do with the patch, which nerf Protoss heavily in PvT. He lost both GSL to Zerg (against Solar and Dark) after losing to Cure (who I think would favor against herO without the patch change anyway), then in DH Summer he lost to Elazer and Creator. Recently he also lost to Cure and then Showtime in the Afreeca Cup. If anything, I believe herO has issue beating Cure and also his other matchup arent great at the moment neither and that has little to do with the patch. Ok herO is slumping in every matchup imaginable. If that would happen to Serral, there would be other Zergs (Reynor, Dark, Solar, etc.) If that would happen to Maru, there would be other Terrans (Cure, Gumiho, Bunny, etc.) But Toss is so far in the gutter, that there is no one else stepping up, because they are just lagging as far behind the other races as hero is. | ||
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Vindicare605
United States16127 Posts
On August 02 2023 21:00 dbRic1203 wrote: Ok herO is slumping in every matchup imaginable. If that would happen to Serral, there would be other Zergs (Reynor, Dark, Solar, etc.) If that would happen to Maru, there would be other Terrans (Cure, Gumiho, Bunny, etc.) But Toss is so far in the gutter, that there is no one else stepping up, because they are just lagging as far behind the other races as hero is. and when herO wasn't the only Protoss hope there was only Trap who also struggled to win anything because he'd fall apart in finals matches. Protoss has had this problem for a long time of there just not being a strong group of players using the race that has existed for quite a while in LoTV. Even when the race was strong there still weren't that many playing it, and no one was winning in the foreign scene with them. Just more evidence here that the problem is Protoss design. Has been from the start. All of the other issues are just symptoms of the larger sickness. | ||
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RandomPressure
9 Posts
Ok herO is slumping in every matchup imaginable. If that would happen to Serral, there would be other Zergs (Reynor, Dark, Solar, etc.) If that would happen to Maru, there would be other Terrans (Cure, Gumiho, Bunny, etc.) But Toss is so far in the gutter, that there is no one else stepping up, because they are just lagging as far behind the other races as hero is. Two years ago, if Maru slumped as herO is now, Terran would have had no one at the top level, and Serral, Rogue, Reynor and Dark would be the only "championship winning calibre" players out there. 9 months ago (i.e. shortly pre-patch), Bunny, Byun, Gumiho and Cure have all had a series of performances that suggest they have improved dramatically, including: Bunny getting to the finals of Dreamhack Winter, knocking out Serral and narrowly losing to herO in a 4-3 finals. Cure taking GSL 2021 season 3. Gumiho reverse sweeping multiple players to make it to the RO4 of GSL 2022 season 3. Byun beating Serral in the winners bracket of HSC 2022 and winning PigSty2 - beating herO and Dark to do so. All the Terrans who are currently performing really well and making Terran look oppressively overpowered have shown consistent signs of improvement over at least the past year - to the extent that the 5 Terrans in the top 8 of GSL season 1 2023 are the exact same 5 Terrans that also made top 8 of GSL season 3 2022 - on the previous patch and map pool. HerO is in-arguably slumping, or at least performing inconsistently - he's clearly still able to beat top level players, demonstrated by 4-0ing Byun to win Pig's ham cup. But in GSL he's lost non-competitively to Dark and Solar and should have lost to both Nightmare and (at least in game 2) against TY. As much as we would like to pretend otherwise, there is no evidence for a dramatic positive step change in performance from Terrans since the balance patch, nor is there evidence for a dramatic negative step change in performance from Protoss players, apart from herO who has started performing much less consistently against all 3 races. I have no idea what the cause of that specific one is, but it's hardly the first time it's happened to a pro player, and it's definitely not related to balance. | ||
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