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On August 02 2023 22:32 RandomPressure wrote:Show nested quote +
Ok herO is slumping in every matchup imaginable.
If that would happen to Serral, there would be other Zergs (Reynor, Dark, Solar, etc.)
If that would happen to Maru, there would be other Terrans (Cure, Gumiho, Bunny, etc.)
But Toss is so far in the gutter, that there is no one else stepping up, because they are just lagging as far behind the other races as hero is.
Two years ago, if Maru slumped as herO is now, Terran would have had no one at the top level, and Serral, Rogue, Reynor and Dark would be the only "championship winning calibre" players out there. 9 months ago (i.e. shortly pre-patch), Bunny, Byun, Gumiho and Cure have all had a series of performances that suggest they have improved dramatically, including: Bunny getting to the finals of Dreamhack Winter, knocking out Serral and narrowly losing to herO in a 4-3 finals. Cure taking GSL 2021 season 3. Gumiho reverse sweeping multiple players to make it to the RO4 of GSL 2022 season 3. Byun beating Serral in the winners bracket of HSC 2022 and winning PigSty2 - beating herO and Dark to do so. All the Terrans who are currently performing really well and making Terran look oppressively overpowered have shown consistent signs of improvement over at least the past year - to the extent that the 5 Terrans in the top 8 of GSL season 1 2023 are the exact same 5 Terrans that also made top 8 of GSL season 3 2022 - on the previous patch and map pool. HerO is in-arguably slumping, or at least performing inconsistently - he's clearly still able to beat top level players, demonstrated by 4-0ing Byun to win Pig's ham cup. But in GSL he's lost non-competitively to Dark and Solar and should have lost to both Nightmare and (at least in game 2) against TY. As much as we would like to pretend otherwise, there is no evidence for a dramatic positive step change in performance from Terrans since the balance patch, nor is there evidence for a dramatic negative step change in performance from Protoss players, apart from herO who has started performing much less consistently against all 3 races. I have no idea what the cause of that specific one is, but it's hardly the first time it's happened to a pro player, and it's definitely not related to balance.
So Maru and Serral just happen to be better than herO.
And also Reynor, Dark, Solar and Cure, Gumiho, Bunny, Clem,...
Just happen to be better than Classic or MaxPax?
Yeah total coinsidence that has nothing to do with balance.
If you argue like that, there never has been a balance issue ever in this game
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On August 03 2023 00:35 dbRic1203 wrote:Show nested quote +On August 02 2023 22:32 RandomPressure wrote:
Ok herO is slumping in every matchup imaginable.
If that would happen to Serral, there would be other Zergs (Reynor, Dark, Solar, etc.)
If that would happen to Maru, there would be other Terrans (Cure, Gumiho, Bunny, etc.)
But Toss is so far in the gutter, that there is no one else stepping up, because they are just lagging as far behind the other races as hero is.
Two years ago, if Maru slumped as herO is now, Terran would have had no one at the top level, and Serral, Rogue, Reynor and Dark would be the only "championship winning calibre" players out there. 9 months ago (i.e. shortly pre-patch), Bunny, Byun, Gumiho and Cure have all had a series of performances that suggest they have improved dramatically, including: Bunny getting to the finals of Dreamhack Winter, knocking out Serral and narrowly losing to herO in a 4-3 finals. Cure taking GSL 2021 season 3. Gumiho reverse sweeping multiple players to make it to the RO4 of GSL 2022 season 3. Byun beating Serral in the winners bracket of HSC 2022 and winning PigSty2 - beating herO and Dark to do so. All the Terrans who are currently performing really well and making Terran look oppressively overpowered have shown consistent signs of improvement over at least the past year - to the extent that the 5 Terrans in the top 8 of GSL season 1 2023 are the exact same 5 Terrans that also made top 8 of GSL season 3 2022 - on the previous patch and map pool. HerO is in-arguably slumping, or at least performing inconsistently - he's clearly still able to beat top level players, demonstrated by 4-0ing Byun to win Pig's ham cup. But in GSL he's lost non-competitively to Dark and Solar and should have lost to both Nightmare and (at least in game 2) against TY. As much as we would like to pretend otherwise, there is no evidence for a dramatic positive step change in performance from Terrans since the balance patch, nor is there evidence for a dramatic negative step change in performance from Protoss players, apart from herO who has started performing much less consistently against all 3 races. I have no idea what the cause of that specific one is, but it's hardly the first time it's happened to a pro player, and it's definitely not related to balance. So Maru and Serral just happen to be better than herO. And also Reynor, Dark, Solar and Cure, Gumiho, Bunny, Clem,... Just happen to be better than Classic or MaxPax? Yeah total coinsidence that has nothing to do with balance. If you argue like that, there never has been a balance issue ever in this game
I want you to watch the games that herO played in GSL this season.
I want you to watch those games and then tell me that he is as good as Maru and Serral.
herO is not a consistent player, herO isn't even top 8 in GSL when he isn't on his A game. Maru and Serral are consistently better than everyone else, even when they are "off" their game they are still favorites to win any tournament they are in.
There is a significant gap in skill between the top Zergs and Terrans that play this game and the remaining top Protoss players. There just is, to say there isn't is being stubbornly delusional.
Now you can very well say that there is something wrong with Protoss design that makes it inherently not as rewarding to top level skill at the pro level. You could say that, I'm saying that, I've been saying that.
But please, don't try this charity case arguing that just because someone has a P next to their name that they "Deserve" to be as good as the likes of Serral and Maru. It's just not true. Not all of the pros are as good as each other, that's why this game is competitive.
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On August 02 2023 12:42 Cyro wrote:Show nested quote +On August 02 2023 11:00 QOGQOG wrote:On August 02 2023 10:48 Gescom wrote:
Lotta balance whine in here when herO and Maxpax win ESL every week...
What does the community need exactly? Two different Protosses to win back to back GSLs? Protoss to do okay in real tournaments? Somebody go total up prize money by race since 2015-11-10 edit: Did it myself w/ liquipedia numbers, easily accessible ones full year 2016-2022 and 2023 to date. The split is: Zerg: 39.37% Terran: 30.90% Protoss: 29.73% 2023 to date is 26% for P, which is a downturn from under-earning to one of the worst earning splits in 14 years of competition. GomTvTvTvT was a scandal with calls all over the community for an urgent balance patch, yet Z and P both took home a larger split of the money that year.
Wow, Zerg is busted? I'm shocked. And yeah, people get mad when Terran (or once, in Super Tournaments long past, Protoss) do well in a couple tournaments but don't seem to care when it's Zerg. At least when the Zerg players are European--when Dark and Rogue started winning everything the complaints and the nerfs started coming.
Rather than looking at prize money over so many years, I'd look at results for the last couple patches. First off, since the last patch, Protoss has won zero Premier events. This is compared to three wins for Terran and two wins for Zerg. Not a huge sample size, obviously, since 5.0.11 has only been around since January 23. So let's go back to the last balance patch, 5.0.9 (5.0.10 was just maps) and add those in. Since March 15 2022 we have 6 Terran wins, 8 Zerg wins, and... 2 Protoss wins.
Are there just no top tier Protoss players anymore? It's interesting, whenever people bring up Protoss players struggling it's all "but they win so many open cups!" and "they're over-represented in GM!" But then when it's high end results, suddenly it's just herO and the concept of MaxPax.
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On August 03 2023 00:44 Vindicare605 wrote:Show nested quote +On August 03 2023 00:35 dbRic1203 wrote:On August 02 2023 22:32 RandomPressure wrote:
Ok herO is slumping in every matchup imaginable.
If that would happen to Serral, there would be other Zergs (Reynor, Dark, Solar, etc.)
If that would happen to Maru, there would be other Terrans (Cure, Gumiho, Bunny, etc.)
But Toss is so far in the gutter, that there is no one else stepping up, because they are just lagging as far behind the other races as hero is.
Two years ago, if Maru slumped as herO is now, Terran would have had no one at the top level, and Serral, Rogue, Reynor and Dark would be the only "championship winning calibre" players out there. 9 months ago (i.e. shortly pre-patch), Bunny, Byun, Gumiho and Cure have all had a series of performances that suggest they have improved dramatically, including: Bunny getting to the finals of Dreamhack Winter, knocking out Serral and narrowly losing to herO in a 4-3 finals. Cure taking GSL 2021 season 3. Gumiho reverse sweeping multiple players to make it to the RO4 of GSL 2022 season 3. Byun beating Serral in the winners bracket of HSC 2022 and winning PigSty2 - beating herO and Dark to do so. All the Terrans who are currently performing really well and making Terran look oppressively overpowered have shown consistent signs of improvement over at least the past year - to the extent that the 5 Terrans in the top 8 of GSL season 1 2023 are the exact same 5 Terrans that also made top 8 of GSL season 3 2022 - on the previous patch and map pool. HerO is in-arguably slumping, or at least performing inconsistently - he's clearly still able to beat top level players, demonstrated by 4-0ing Byun to win Pig's ham cup. But in GSL he's lost non-competitively to Dark and Solar and should have lost to both Nightmare and (at least in game 2) against TY. As much as we would like to pretend otherwise, there is no evidence for a dramatic positive step change in performance from Terrans since the balance patch, nor is there evidence for a dramatic negative step change in performance from Protoss players, apart from herO who has started performing much less consistently against all 3 races. I have no idea what the cause of that specific one is, but it's hardly the first time it's happened to a pro player, and it's definitely not related to balance. So Maru and Serral just happen to be better than herO. And also Reynor, Dark, Solar and Cure, Gumiho, Bunny, Clem,... Just happen to be better than Classic or MaxPax? Yeah total coinsidence that has nothing to do with balance. If you argue like that, there never has been a balance issue ever in this game I want you to watch the games that herO played in GSL this season. I want you to watch those games and then tell me that he is as good as Maru and Serral. herO is not a consistent player, herO isn't even top 8 in GSL when he isn't on his A game. Maru and Serral are consistently better than everyone else, even when they are "off" their game they are still favorites to win any tournament they are in. There is a significant gap in skill between the top Zergs and Terrans that play this game and the remaining top Protoss players. There just is, to say there isn't is being stubbornly delusional. Now you can very well say that there is something wrong with Protoss design that makes it inherently not as rewarding to top level skill at the pro level. You could say that, I'm saying that, I've been saying that. But please, don't try this charity case arguing that just because someone has a P next to their name that they "Deserve" to be as good as the likes of Serral and Maru. It's just not true. Not all of the pros are as good as each other, that's why this game is competitive.
With the 2nd to Last Point, do you maybe think herO e.g. might Just be as good or Close to serral and maru but protoss Design Just makes it Look Like He is inconsistent? Has there ever been a consistent protoss except maybe Trap for a while in lotv? May that be because even If a toss is as good as the top dogs of terran and zerg the Design Just makes it very hard to stay consistent?
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On August 03 2023 00:35 dbRic1203 wrote:Show nested quote +On August 02 2023 22:32 RandomPressure wrote:
Ok herO is slumping in every matchup imaginable.
If that would happen to Serral, there would be other Zergs (Reynor, Dark, Solar, etc.)
If that would happen to Maru, there would be other Terrans (Cure, Gumiho, Bunny, etc.)
But Toss is so far in the gutter, that there is no one else stepping up, because they are just lagging as far behind the other races as hero is.
Two years ago, if Maru slumped as herO is now, Terran would have had no one at the top level, and Serral, Rogue, Reynor and Dark would be the only "championship winning calibre" players out there. 9 months ago (i.e. shortly pre-patch), Bunny, Byun, Gumiho and Cure have all had a series of performances that suggest they have improved dramatically, including: Bunny getting to the finals of Dreamhack Winter, knocking out Serral and narrowly losing to herO in a 4-3 finals. Cure taking GSL 2021 season 3. Gumiho reverse sweeping multiple players to make it to the RO4 of GSL 2022 season 3. Byun beating Serral in the winners bracket of HSC 2022 and winning PigSty2 - beating herO and Dark to do so. All the Terrans who are currently performing really well and making Terran look oppressively overpowered have shown consistent signs of improvement over at least the past year - to the extent that the 5 Terrans in the top 8 of GSL season 1 2023 are the exact same 5 Terrans that also made top 8 of GSL season 3 2022 - on the previous patch and map pool. HerO is in-arguably slumping, or at least performing inconsistently - he's clearly still able to beat top level players, demonstrated by 4-0ing Byun to win Pig's ham cup. But in GSL he's lost non-competitively to Dark and Solar and should have lost to both Nightmare and (at least in game 2) against TY. As much as we would like to pretend otherwise, there is no evidence for a dramatic positive step change in performance from Terrans since the balance patch, nor is there evidence for a dramatic negative step change in performance from Protoss players, apart from herO who has started performing much less consistently against all 3 races. I have no idea what the cause of that specific one is, but it's hardly the first time it's happened to a pro player, and it's definitely not related to balance. So Maru and Serral just happen to be better than herO. And also Reynor, Dark, Solar and Cure, Gumiho, Bunny, Clem,... Just happen to be better than Classic or MaxPax? Yeah total coinsidence that has nothing to do with balance. If you argue like that, there never has been a balance issue ever in this game
I mean, herO just simply look worse now than he was last year. Does it because of the balance patch? possibly like 10-15% of it, but he also lost in PvP and PvZ as well, where the patch isnt impacting it that much supposedly. So its hard to say its because of the patch that cause the drop off on his game. And MaxPax is on the same level with everyone outside of Serral, but he just doesnt play offline event and thats just how it is. But for the rest of the Protoss players, yes they are not as good as the top Terran and Zerg currently. If I were to rank top 16 players in the world since last year, about half would be Terran, 5-6 would be Zerg and 2-3 would be Protoss.
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On August 03 2023 00:58 darklycid wrote:Show nested quote +On August 03 2023 00:44 Vindicare605 wrote:On August 03 2023 00:35 dbRic1203 wrote:On August 02 2023 22:32 RandomPressure wrote:
Ok herO is slumping in every matchup imaginable.
If that would happen to Serral, there would be other Zergs (Reynor, Dark, Solar, etc.)
If that would happen to Maru, there would be other Terrans (Cure, Gumiho, Bunny, etc.)
But Toss is so far in the gutter, that there is no one else stepping up, because they are just lagging as far behind the other races as hero is.
Two years ago, if Maru slumped as herO is now, Terran would have had no one at the top level, and Serral, Rogue, Reynor and Dark would be the only "championship winning calibre" players out there. 9 months ago (i.e. shortly pre-patch), Bunny, Byun, Gumiho and Cure have all had a series of performances that suggest they have improved dramatically, including: Bunny getting to the finals of Dreamhack Winter, knocking out Serral and narrowly losing to herO in a 4-3 finals. Cure taking GSL 2021 season 3. Gumiho reverse sweeping multiple players to make it to the RO4 of GSL 2022 season 3. Byun beating Serral in the winners bracket of HSC 2022 and winning PigSty2 - beating herO and Dark to do so. All the Terrans who are currently performing really well and making Terran look oppressively overpowered have shown consistent signs of improvement over at least the past year - to the extent that the 5 Terrans in the top 8 of GSL season 1 2023 are the exact same 5 Terrans that also made top 8 of GSL season 3 2022 - on the previous patch and map pool. HerO is in-arguably slumping, or at least performing inconsistently - he's clearly still able to beat top level players, demonstrated by 4-0ing Byun to win Pig's ham cup. But in GSL he's lost non-competitively to Dark and Solar and should have lost to both Nightmare and (at least in game 2) against TY. As much as we would like to pretend otherwise, there is no evidence for a dramatic positive step change in performance from Terrans since the balance patch, nor is there evidence for a dramatic negative step change in performance from Protoss players, apart from herO who has started performing much less consistently against all 3 races. I have no idea what the cause of that specific one is, but it's hardly the first time it's happened to a pro player, and it's definitely not related to balance. So Maru and Serral just happen to be better than herO. And also Reynor, Dark, Solar and Cure, Gumiho, Bunny, Clem,... Just happen to be better than Classic or MaxPax? Yeah total coinsidence that has nothing to do with balance. If you argue like that, there never has been a balance issue ever in this game I want you to watch the games that herO played in GSL this season. I want you to watch those games and then tell me that he is as good as Maru and Serral. herO is not a consistent player, herO isn't even top 8 in GSL when he isn't on his A game. Maru and Serral are consistently better than everyone else, even when they are "off" their game they are still favorites to win any tournament they are in. There is a significant gap in skill between the top Zergs and Terrans that play this game and the remaining top Protoss players. There just is, to say there isn't is being stubbornly delusional. Now you can very well say that there is something wrong with Protoss design that makes it inherently not as rewarding to top level skill at the pro level. You could say that, I'm saying that, I've been saying that. But please, don't try this charity case arguing that just because someone has a P next to their name that they "Deserve" to be as good as the likes of Serral and Maru. It's just not true. Not all of the pros are as good as each other, that's why this game is competitive. With the 2nd to Last Point, do you maybe think herO e.g. might Just be as good or Close to serral and maru but protoss Design Just makes it Look Like He is inconsistent? Has there ever been a consistent protoss except maybe Trap for a while in lotv? May that be because even If a toss is as good as the top dogs of terran and zerg the Design Just makes it very hard to stay consistent?
That's an impossible question to answer because herO is the player he is because of how Protoss is designed, he's successful because he uses the strengths of the race to win easy games, shake up the meta with strong timings. He's never been the kind of player that plays out macro games and wins with superior micro, multitasking, and decision making on a regular basis. He's never been that kind of player. He wins by tricking his opponent and gaming the meta, the same way Protoss has always won.
Now would he have been that kind of player if Protoss was designed differently? Maybe, but he could also have been not as successful as he is because he wouldn't have been able to feed off of the current design that rewards tricky play.
I just know this. herO has never been in the conversation for "best in the world" at any point in his career. Best Protoss maybe, but never the best player in the world. He's never shown that kind of next level skill that put players like Maru and Serral at the top of the pyramid.
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On August 03 2023 00:56 QOGQOG wrote:
Rather than looking at prize money over so many years, I'd look at results for the last couple patches. First off, since the last patch, Protoss has won zero Premier events. This is compared to three wins for Terran and two wins for Zerg. Not a huge sample size, obviously, since 5.0.11 has only been around since January 23. So let's go back to the last balance patch, 5.0.9 (5.0.10 was just maps) and add those in. Since March 15 2022 we have 6 Terran wins, 8 Zerg wins, and... 2 Protoss wins.
Are there just no top tier Protoss players anymore? It's interesting, whenever people bring up Protoss players struggling it's all "but they win so many open cups!" and "they're over-represented in GM!" But then when it's high end results, suddenly it's just herO and the concept of MaxPax.
Going off the total number of wins doesn't highlight how shallow the top level competitive player base is.
Since the latest patch, Maru has won 2 events, Serral has won 2. Oliveira had a truly miracle run, beating some of the best from each race to win a third. Without that lightning in a bottle moment, either all 5 tournaments this year would have been won by Maru and Serral.
Across your expanded time period, we have:
Zerg:
Serral - 4 wins
Reynor - 2 wins
Rogue - 1 win (then retirement)
Solar - 1 win
Terran:
Maru - 3 wins
Clem - 2 wins (2x ESL EU...)
Oliveira - 1 win
Protoss:
herO - 2 wins
So taken at face value, we have between 3 - 5 competitive Zergs (Solar did overperform, Rogue is in retirement, but Dark hasn't won anything), 1-3 competitive Terrans (Clem pre and post patch has really struggled outside ESL EU, Oliveira has yet to show "top 5" level again) and 1-2 competitive Protoss (considering ESL EU is the only premier tournament here that Maxpax, who the evidence currently suggests is the strongest Protoss, will actually attend...)
These numbers are completely statistically plausible for the make up of the top competitive players - indeed it would be statistically very surprising if the best players were in fact distributed evenly across all races.
If we consider that Terran has multiple players who have returned from military in the last couple of years who have been showing consistent improvement and that conversely Protoss has lost both Zest and Trap to the military - both of whom won tournaments the year before your cut off - we do come back to, much though it sucks for fans of the game, Protoss problems winning premier tournaments are at least as much to do with the lack of good Protoss players as it is anything to do with game balance.
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I have frequently seen people argue that protoss simply has fewer top pros, and they have lost more to military service, but it doesn't seem true to me. Terran lost Innovation and TY but others have stepped up. Cure has made been in the semi-final of both GSLs this year. Bunny made one, as did Byun and Gumiho. Oliviera won Katowice.
On the zerg side, Ragnorak has never been a title contender but this year made the semi-final of the Afreeca Cup of Champions (beating MaxPax to get there) and Katowice. He also made the final of GSL season 3 last year.
There are terrans and zergs who have over-achieved compared to their historic level. No protoss has over-achieved in the same way.
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There was like a 1-2 year period where it was just Maru (and maybe Cure?) holding the fort for Terran before those other players you mentioned stepped up.
Maxpax would be the example of a Protoss who has stepped up in a similar way, having got consistently better. This year he's repeatedly taking series off Maru, won Pig Sty, got to the finals of ESL EU and is one of three people to have taken a match against Serral since Katowice - which is not a bad resume to have collected for someone who doesn't play on LAN!
Protoss's such as Creator and Astrea have notable over-achivements in the past year...
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I think obviously there's a ton of factors as to why toss is declining. I think the nail in the coffin patch was when they nerfed toss because of the prism stuff vs zerg (and upgrade speed for pvt)
I thought that was a bit quick on the nerf hammer. I don't think it was that oppressive for Zerg to deal with but admittedly I don't really play much Zerg. It was especially quick when you consider the blatantly op nydus patch that we had to play kato on before we were allowed to determine it was op.
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On August 03 2023 00:35 dbRic1203 wrote:Show nested quote +On August 02 2023 22:32 RandomPressure wrote:
Ok herO is slumping in every matchup imaginable.
If that would happen to Serral, there would be other Zergs (Reynor, Dark, Solar, etc.)
If that would happen to Maru, there would be other Terrans (Cure, Gumiho, Bunny, etc.)
But Toss is so far in the gutter, that there is no one else stepping up, because they are just lagging as far behind the other races as hero is.
Two years ago, if Maru slumped as herO is now, Terran would have had no one at the top level, and Serral, Rogue, Reynor and Dark would be the only "championship winning calibre" players out there. 9 months ago (i.e. shortly pre-patch), Bunny, Byun, Gumiho and Cure have all had a series of performances that suggest they have improved dramatically, including: Bunny getting to the finals of Dreamhack Winter, knocking out Serral and narrowly losing to herO in a 4-3 finals. Cure taking GSL 2021 season 3. Gumiho reverse sweeping multiple players to make it to the RO4 of GSL 2022 season 3. Byun beating Serral in the winners bracket of HSC 2022 and winning PigSty2 - beating herO and Dark to do so. All the Terrans who are currently performing really well and making Terran look oppressively overpowered have shown consistent signs of improvement over at least the past year - to the extent that the 5 Terrans in the top 8 of GSL season 1 2023 are the exact same 5 Terrans that also made top 8 of GSL season 3 2022 - on the previous patch and map pool. HerO is in-arguably slumping, or at least performing inconsistently - he's clearly still able to beat top level players, demonstrated by 4-0ing Byun to win Pig's ham cup. But in GSL he's lost non-competitively to Dark and Solar and should have lost to both Nightmare and (at least in game 2) against TY. As much as we would like to pretend otherwise, there is no evidence for a dramatic positive step change in performance from Terrans since the balance patch, nor is there evidence for a dramatic negative step change in performance from Protoss players, apart from herO who has started performing much less consistently against all 3 races. I have no idea what the cause of that specific one is, but it's hardly the first time it's happened to a pro player, and it's definitely not related to balance. So Maru and Serral just happen to be better than herO. And also Reynor, Dark, Solar and Cure, Gumiho, Bunny, Clem,... Just happen to be better than Classic or MaxPax? Yeah total coinsidence that has nothing to do with balance. If you argue like that, there never has been a balance issue ever in this game
WOW its almost as if there wasn't a divine entity that created 3 humans with exactly equal skill at a video game for each race with pixie dust! No way! How could different humans have different skill levels????
Every protoss player knows hero is on the same level as maru and serral, and maxhax and classic are on the same levels as dark rogue cure byun etc!
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On August 03 2023 04:24 THERIDDLER wrote:Show nested quote +On August 03 2023 00:35 dbRic1203 wrote:On August 02 2023 22:32 RandomPressure wrote:
Ok herO is slumping in every matchup imaginable.
If that would happen to Serral, there would be other Zergs (Reynor, Dark, Solar, etc.)
If that would happen to Maru, there would be other Terrans (Cure, Gumiho, Bunny, etc.)
But Toss is so far in the gutter, that there is no one else stepping up, because they are just lagging as far behind the other races as hero is.
Two years ago, if Maru slumped as herO is now, Terran would have had no one at the top level, and Serral, Rogue, Reynor and Dark would be the only "championship winning calibre" players out there. 9 months ago (i.e. shortly pre-patch), Bunny, Byun, Gumiho and Cure have all had a series of performances that suggest they have improved dramatically, including: Bunny getting to the finals of Dreamhack Winter, knocking out Serral and narrowly losing to herO in a 4-3 finals. Cure taking GSL 2021 season 3. Gumiho reverse sweeping multiple players to make it to the RO4 of GSL 2022 season 3. Byun beating Serral in the winners bracket of HSC 2022 and winning PigSty2 - beating herO and Dark to do so. All the Terrans who are currently performing really well and making Terran look oppressively overpowered have shown consistent signs of improvement over at least the past year - to the extent that the 5 Terrans in the top 8 of GSL season 1 2023 are the exact same 5 Terrans that also made top 8 of GSL season 3 2022 - on the previous patch and map pool. HerO is in-arguably slumping, or at least performing inconsistently - he's clearly still able to beat top level players, demonstrated by 4-0ing Byun to win Pig's ham cup. But in GSL he's lost non-competitively to Dark and Solar and should have lost to both Nightmare and (at least in game 2) against TY. As much as we would like to pretend otherwise, there is no evidence for a dramatic positive step change in performance from Terrans since the balance patch, nor is there evidence for a dramatic negative step change in performance from Protoss players, apart from herO who has started performing much less consistently against all 3 races. I have no idea what the cause of that specific one is, but it's hardly the first time it's happened to a pro player, and it's definitely not related to balance. So Maru and Serral just happen to be better than herO. And also Reynor, Dark, Solar and Cure, Gumiho, Bunny, Clem,... Just happen to be better than Classic or MaxPax? Yeah total coinsidence that has nothing to do with balance. If you argue like that, there never has been a balance issue ever in this game WOW its almost as if there wasn't a divine entity that created 3 humans with exactly equal skill at a video game for each race with pixie dust! No way! How could different humans have different skill levels???? Every protoss player knows hero is on the same level as maru and serral, and maxhax and classic are on the same levels as dark rogue cure byun etc!
Glad someone has the BALLS to say zerg and terran players are just better
Hopefully you had the same opinion in 2014 with its protoss dominance!
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On August 03 2023 04:32 Durnuu wrote:Show nested quote +On August 03 2023 04:24 THERIDDLER wrote:On August 03 2023 00:35 dbRic1203 wrote:On August 02 2023 22:32 RandomPressure wrote:
Ok herO is slumping in every matchup imaginable.
If that would happen to Serral, there would be other Zergs (Reynor, Dark, Solar, etc.)
If that would happen to Maru, there would be other Terrans (Cure, Gumiho, Bunny, etc.)
But Toss is so far in the gutter, that there is no one else stepping up, because they are just lagging as far behind the other races as hero is.
Two years ago, if Maru slumped as herO is now, Terran would have had no one at the top level, and Serral, Rogue, Reynor and Dark would be the only "championship winning calibre" players out there. 9 months ago (i.e. shortly pre-patch), Bunny, Byun, Gumiho and Cure have all had a series of performances that suggest they have improved dramatically, including: Bunny getting to the finals of Dreamhack Winter, knocking out Serral and narrowly losing to herO in a 4-3 finals. Cure taking GSL 2021 season 3. Gumiho reverse sweeping multiple players to make it to the RO4 of GSL 2022 season 3. Byun beating Serral in the winners bracket of HSC 2022 and winning PigSty2 - beating herO and Dark to do so. All the Terrans who are currently performing really well and making Terran look oppressively overpowered have shown consistent signs of improvement over at least the past year - to the extent that the 5 Terrans in the top 8 of GSL season 1 2023 are the exact same 5 Terrans that also made top 8 of GSL season 3 2022 - on the previous patch and map pool. HerO is in-arguably slumping, or at least performing inconsistently - he's clearly still able to beat top level players, demonstrated by 4-0ing Byun to win Pig's ham cup. But in GSL he's lost non-competitively to Dark and Solar and should have lost to both Nightmare and (at least in game 2) against TY. As much as we would like to pretend otherwise, there is no evidence for a dramatic positive step change in performance from Terrans since the balance patch, nor is there evidence for a dramatic negative step change in performance from Protoss players, apart from herO who has started performing much less consistently against all 3 races. I have no idea what the cause of that specific one is, but it's hardly the first time it's happened to a pro player, and it's definitely not related to balance. So Maru and Serral just happen to be better than herO. And also Reynor, Dark, Solar and Cure, Gumiho, Bunny, Clem,... Just happen to be better than Classic or MaxPax? Yeah total coinsidence that has nothing to do with balance. If you argue like that, there never has been a balance issue ever in this game WOW its almost as if there wasn't a divine entity that created 3 humans with exactly equal skill at a video game for each race with pixie dust! No way! How could different humans have different skill levels???? Every protoss player knows hero is on the same level as maru and serral, and maxhax and classic are on the same levels as dark rogue cure byun etc! Glad someone has the BALLS to say zerg and terran players are just better Hopefully you had the same opinion in 2014 with its protoss dominance!
Absolutely, I 100% agree the imaginary protoss player that maintains dominance over maru across multiple years and tens of patches (like how maru does over hero) is without a doubt the better player!
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On August 03 2023 04:24 THERIDDLER wrote:Show nested quote +On August 03 2023 00:35 dbRic1203 wrote:On August 02 2023 22:32 RandomPressure wrote:
Ok herO is slumping in every matchup imaginable.
If that would happen to Serral, there would be other Zergs (Reynor, Dark, Solar, etc.)
If that would happen to Maru, there would be other Terrans (Cure, Gumiho, Bunny, etc.)
But Toss is so far in the gutter, that there is no one else stepping up, because they are just lagging as far behind the other races as hero is.
Two years ago, if Maru slumped as herO is now, Terran would have had no one at the top level, and Serral, Rogue, Reynor and Dark would be the only "championship winning calibre" players out there. 9 months ago (i.e. shortly pre-patch), Bunny, Byun, Gumiho and Cure have all had a series of performances that suggest they have improved dramatically, including: Bunny getting to the finals of Dreamhack Winter, knocking out Serral and narrowly losing to herO in a 4-3 finals. Cure taking GSL 2021 season 3. Gumiho reverse sweeping multiple players to make it to the RO4 of GSL 2022 season 3. Byun beating Serral in the winners bracket of HSC 2022 and winning PigSty2 - beating herO and Dark to do so. All the Terrans who are currently performing really well and making Terran look oppressively overpowered have shown consistent signs of improvement over at least the past year - to the extent that the 5 Terrans in the top 8 of GSL season 1 2023 are the exact same 5 Terrans that also made top 8 of GSL season 3 2022 - on the previous patch and map pool. HerO is in-arguably slumping, or at least performing inconsistently - he's clearly still able to beat top level players, demonstrated by 4-0ing Byun to win Pig's ham cup. But in GSL he's lost non-competitively to Dark and Solar and should have lost to both Nightmare and (at least in game 2) against TY. As much as we would like to pretend otherwise, there is no evidence for a dramatic positive step change in performance from Terrans since the balance patch, nor is there evidence for a dramatic negative step change in performance from Protoss players, apart from herO who has started performing much less consistently against all 3 races. I have no idea what the cause of that specific one is, but it's hardly the first time it's happened to a pro player, and it's definitely not related to balance. So Maru and Serral just happen to be better than herO. And also Reynor, Dark, Solar and Cure, Gumiho, Bunny, Clem,... Just happen to be better than Classic or MaxPax? Yeah total coinsidence that has nothing to do with balance. If you argue like that, there never has been a balance issue ever in this game WOW its almost as if there wasn't a divine entity that created 3 humans with exactly equal skill at a video game for each race with pixie dust! No way! How could different humans have different skill levels???? Every protoss player knows hero is on the same level as maru and serral, and maxhax and classic are on the same levels as dark rogue cure byun etc!
So nothing can ever be said about balance, it's just player talent always all the time. Great insight.
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On August 03 2023 04:45 QOGQOG wrote:Show nested quote +On August 03 2023 04:24 THERIDDLER wrote:On August 03 2023 00:35 dbRic1203 wrote:On August 02 2023 22:32 RandomPressure wrote:
Ok herO is slumping in every matchup imaginable.
If that would happen to Serral, there would be other Zergs (Reynor, Dark, Solar, etc.)
If that would happen to Maru, there would be other Terrans (Cure, Gumiho, Bunny, etc.)
But Toss is so far in the gutter, that there is no one else stepping up, because they are just lagging as far behind the other races as hero is.
Two years ago, if Maru slumped as herO is now, Terran would have had no one at the top level, and Serral, Rogue, Reynor and Dark would be the only "championship winning calibre" players out there. 9 months ago (i.e. shortly pre-patch), Bunny, Byun, Gumiho and Cure have all had a series of performances that suggest they have improved dramatically, including: Bunny getting to the finals of Dreamhack Winter, knocking out Serral and narrowly losing to herO in a 4-3 finals. Cure taking GSL 2021 season 3. Gumiho reverse sweeping multiple players to make it to the RO4 of GSL 2022 season 3. Byun beating Serral in the winners bracket of HSC 2022 and winning PigSty2 - beating herO and Dark to do so. All the Terrans who are currently performing really well and making Terran look oppressively overpowered have shown consistent signs of improvement over at least the past year - to the extent that the 5 Terrans in the top 8 of GSL season 1 2023 are the exact same 5 Terrans that also made top 8 of GSL season 3 2022 - on the previous patch and map pool. HerO is in-arguably slumping, or at least performing inconsistently - he's clearly still able to beat top level players, demonstrated by 4-0ing Byun to win Pig's ham cup. But in GSL he's lost non-competitively to Dark and Solar and should have lost to both Nightmare and (at least in game 2) against TY. As much as we would like to pretend otherwise, there is no evidence for a dramatic positive step change in performance from Terrans since the balance patch, nor is there evidence for a dramatic negative step change in performance from Protoss players, apart from herO who has started performing much less consistently against all 3 races. I have no idea what the cause of that specific one is, but it's hardly the first time it's happened to a pro player, and it's definitely not related to balance. So Maru and Serral just happen to be better than herO. And also Reynor, Dark, Solar and Cure, Gumiho, Bunny, Clem,... Just happen to be better than Classic or MaxPax? Yeah total coinsidence that has nothing to do with balance. If you argue like that, there never has been a balance issue ever in this game WOW its almost as if there wasn't a divine entity that created 3 humans with exactly equal skill at a video game for each race with pixie dust! No way! How could different humans have different skill levels???? Every protoss player knows hero is on the same level as maru and serral, and maxhax and classic are on the same levels as dark rogue cure byun etc! So nothing can ever be said about balance, it's just player talent always all the time. Great insight.
Litearlly the exact opposite of what I said. When the players are of exact equal skill, as every protoss player I've talked to agrees with, its ALL about balance. Don't even try to argue this with me, I've got all of the protoss conclave to back me up.
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On August 02 2023 04:10 KarlSiegt wrote:
Really?
Fixed bug?
Protoss need a buff and a miracle.
This game deserves to die ASAP, it's totally unbalanced, the Protoss race suck, they're quicker to remove the race. Protoss players should boycott tournaments until they fix everything.
User was warned for this post
Drink a bud light
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On August 03 2023 04:40 THERIDDLER wrote:Show nested quote +On August 03 2023 04:32 Durnuu wrote:On August 03 2023 04:24 THERIDDLER wrote:On August 03 2023 00:35 dbRic1203 wrote:On August 02 2023 22:32 RandomPressure wrote:
Ok herO is slumping in every matchup imaginable.
If that would happen to Serral, there would be other Zergs (Reynor, Dark, Solar, etc.)
If that would happen to Maru, there would be other Terrans (Cure, Gumiho, Bunny, etc.)
But Toss is so far in the gutter, that there is no one else stepping up, because they are just lagging as far behind the other races as hero is.
Two years ago, if Maru slumped as herO is now, Terran would have had no one at the top level, and Serral, Rogue, Reynor and Dark would be the only "championship winning calibre" players out there. 9 months ago (i.e. shortly pre-patch), Bunny, Byun, Gumiho and Cure have all had a series of performances that suggest they have improved dramatically, including: Bunny getting to the finals of Dreamhack Winter, knocking out Serral and narrowly losing to herO in a 4-3 finals. Cure taking GSL 2021 season 3. Gumiho reverse sweeping multiple players to make it to the RO4 of GSL 2022 season 3. Byun beating Serral in the winners bracket of HSC 2022 and winning PigSty2 - beating herO and Dark to do so. All the Terrans who are currently performing really well and making Terran look oppressively overpowered have shown consistent signs of improvement over at least the past year - to the extent that the 5 Terrans in the top 8 of GSL season 1 2023 are the exact same 5 Terrans that also made top 8 of GSL season 3 2022 - on the previous patch and map pool. HerO is in-arguably slumping, or at least performing inconsistently - he's clearly still able to beat top level players, demonstrated by 4-0ing Byun to win Pig's ham cup. But in GSL he's lost non-competitively to Dark and Solar and should have lost to both Nightmare and (at least in game 2) against TY. As much as we would like to pretend otherwise, there is no evidence for a dramatic positive step change in performance from Terrans since the balance patch, nor is there evidence for a dramatic negative step change in performance from Protoss players, apart from herO who has started performing much less consistently against all 3 races. I have no idea what the cause of that specific one is, but it's hardly the first time it's happened to a pro player, and it's definitely not related to balance. So Maru and Serral just happen to be better than herO. And also Reynor, Dark, Solar and Cure, Gumiho, Bunny, Clem,... Just happen to be better than Classic or MaxPax? Yeah total coinsidence that has nothing to do with balance. If you argue like that, there never has been a balance issue ever in this game WOW its almost as if there wasn't a divine entity that created 3 humans with exactly equal skill at a video game for each race with pixie dust! No way! How could different humans have different skill levels???? Every protoss player knows hero is on the same level as maru and serral, and maxhax and classic are on the same levels as dark rogue cure byun etc! Glad someone has the BALLS to say zerg and terran players are just better Hopefully you had the same opinion in 2014 with its protoss dominance! Absolutely, I 100% agree the imaginary protoss player that maintains dominance over maru across multiple years and tens of patches (like how maru does over hero) is without a doubt the better player!
Glad we implicitly agree on the "good" zergs being patchzergs 
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Northern Ireland26261 Posts
On August 03 2023 04:45 QOGQOG wrote:Show nested quote +On August 03 2023 04:24 THERIDDLER wrote:On August 03 2023 00:35 dbRic1203 wrote:On August 02 2023 22:32 RandomPressure wrote:
Ok herO is slumping in every matchup imaginable.
If that would happen to Serral, there would be other Zergs (Reynor, Dark, Solar, etc.)
If that would happen to Maru, there would be other Terrans (Cure, Gumiho, Bunny, etc.)
But Toss is so far in the gutter, that there is no one else stepping up, because they are just lagging as far behind the other races as hero is.
Two years ago, if Maru slumped as herO is now, Terran would have had no one at the top level, and Serral, Rogue, Reynor and Dark would be the only "championship winning calibre" players out there. 9 months ago (i.e. shortly pre-patch), Bunny, Byun, Gumiho and Cure have all had a series of performances that suggest they have improved dramatically, including: Bunny getting to the finals of Dreamhack Winter, knocking out Serral and narrowly losing to herO in a 4-3 finals. Cure taking GSL 2021 season 3. Gumiho reverse sweeping multiple players to make it to the RO4 of GSL 2022 season 3. Byun beating Serral in the winners bracket of HSC 2022 and winning PigSty2 - beating herO and Dark to do so. All the Terrans who are currently performing really well and making Terran look oppressively overpowered have shown consistent signs of improvement over at least the past year - to the extent that the 5 Terrans in the top 8 of GSL season 1 2023 are the exact same 5 Terrans that also made top 8 of GSL season 3 2022 - on the previous patch and map pool. HerO is in-arguably slumping, or at least performing inconsistently - he's clearly still able to beat top level players, demonstrated by 4-0ing Byun to win Pig's ham cup. But in GSL he's lost non-competitively to Dark and Solar and should have lost to both Nightmare and (at least in game 2) against TY. As much as we would like to pretend otherwise, there is no evidence for a dramatic positive step change in performance from Terrans since the balance patch, nor is there evidence for a dramatic negative step change in performance from Protoss players, apart from herO who has started performing much less consistently against all 3 races. I have no idea what the cause of that specific one is, but it's hardly the first time it's happened to a pro player, and it's definitely not related to balance. So Maru and Serral just happen to be better than herO. And also Reynor, Dark, Solar and Cure, Gumiho, Bunny, Clem,... Just happen to be better than Classic or MaxPax? Yeah total coinsidence that has nothing to do with balance. If you argue like that, there never has been a balance issue ever in this game WOW its almost as if there wasn't a divine entity that created 3 humans with exactly equal skill at a video game for each race with pixie dust! No way! How could different humans have different skill levels???? Every protoss player knows hero is on the same level as maru and serral, and maxhax and classic are on the same levels as dark rogue cure byun etc! So nothing can ever be said about balance, it's just player talent always all the time. Great insight.
It’s not as if Classic, Stats weren’t previously at the absolute top of the game, and herO much more recently.
And that the Protoss contingent doesn’t have really accomplished BW players.
I think it’s far less a case of players lacking skill and more one that their chosen race somewhat handicaps their ability to show it, especially mechanically.
Not something you’re going to see radically change at this stage in the SC2 lifecycle, that’s too much to hope. But be competitive in the standard SC2 Protoss sense of mixing defensive macro with the Big Book of Protoss BS is something manageable by tweaks.
At present the race feels super fragile
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I just don't really believe that people are honest about this. After years of protoss being quite weak, we had patching and suddenly the game was quite okay, herO and Maxpax won some decent tournaments. This lasted for a few months, there was nowhere near protoss domination in those few months, and then we got patched down again for seemingly no reason, and it's supposed to be some sort of mystery why protoss is doing badly again?
We just had a tourney where the protoss race was stronger than it should have been, by accident, and in that tourney protoss still finished worst race by far. Do you really reckon that if that bug happened on a zerg or terran unit that race wouldn't have handily won the tournament?
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United Kingdom20326 Posts
On August 02 2023 16:36 Harris1st wrote:Show nested quote +On August 02 2023 12:42 Cyro wrote:On August 02 2023 11:00 QOGQOG wrote:On August 02 2023 10:48 Gescom wrote:
Lotta balance whine in here when herO and Maxpax win ESL every week...
What does the community need exactly? Two different Protosses to win back to back GSLs? Protoss to do okay in real tournaments? Somebody go total up prize money by race since 2015-11-10 edit: Did it myself w/ liquipedia numbers, easily accessible ones full year 2016-2022 and 2023 to date. The split is: Zerg: 39.37% Terran: 30.90% Protoss: 29.73% 2023 to date is 26% for P, which is a downturn from under-earning to one of the worst earning splits in 14 years of competition. GomTvTvTvT was a scandal with calls all over the community for an urgent balance patch, yet Z and P both took home a larger split of the money that year. How is Protoss supposed to win money when the best foreign Protoss doesn't show up to offline events (which pay the big bucks) and the best Korean Protosses just seem to randomly choke in games that are winnable
What essentially boils down to [Protoss players just didn't try / play well for 8 years, but players of the other races did] isn't a very good argument. We're talking about hundreds of tournaments and tens of thousands of games here. Chokes and errors are used to blame certain players while they're brushed under the rug for others, but the record averages out and speaks for itself
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EPT
