On January 24 2023 07:49 Charoisaur wrote: Yeah letting pros handle patches is just a bad idea, they clearly have a conflict of interest regarding balancing the game which results in the race that has the most influential community members getting all the buffs. Shameful
Protoss has the most players in the balance discord by far and every change is voted on. Every player from the Dreamhack regionals and GSL is in the balance discord (or invited and declined) and thus protoss has the most representation. So yeah there's no zerg cabal.
How many of those people have professional game design experience with a major game development company?
To be fair, neither arent us, in term of having game design experience. I do believe that pro players are definitely more equipped to talk about balance then us general viewers. But that doesnt mean they are not without bias, and trying to say that Protoss have the most players in balance discord doesnt mean much if they dont work in unity, rather just accept the status quo or listening to a few individual. Lets be real, before or after the patch, there are only about 2-3 Protoss players that has a real shot at winning tournaments, so even if the change might hurt/help the Protoss players in general, some (or most) wont care much because they are just not good enough to win.
But the lack of transparency and goal path is something that need to be done better imo, so that we can share the vision of the team and seeing how it will come into fruition. At the moment, it just seems that they are making buff/nerf/rework on a whim and see how it goes moving forward. Coupled with how awful ESL has done its job in organizing/implementing the patches and its timing, I dont blame people for feeling frustrated.
On January 24 2023 07:49 Charoisaur wrote: Yeah letting pros handle patches is just a bad idea, they clearly have a conflict of interest regarding balancing the game which results in the race that has the most influential community members getting all the buffs. Shameful
Protoss has the most players in the balance discord by far and every change is voted on. Every player from the Dreamhack regionals and GSL is in the balance discord (or invited and declined) and thus protoss has the most representation. So yeah there's no zerg cabal.
How many of those people have professional game design experience with a major game development company?
Nobody have a design experience and even in a professionnal firm some has only to follow a bunch of rules and only do what their manager ask for. If you really wanna design something, you can, just ask yourself what game you would love to play if you were a player.
On January 24 2023 07:49 Charoisaur wrote: Yeah letting pros handle patches is just a bad idea, they clearly have a conflict of interest regarding balancing the game which results in the race that has the most influential community members getting all the buffs. Shameful
Protoss has the most players in the balance discord by far and every change is voted on. Every player from the Dreamhack regionals and GSL is in the balance discord (or invited and declined) and thus protoss has the most representation.
So yeah there's no zerg cabal.
I mean, can you really with a straight face say Zerg isn't getting preferential treatment by the balance team and that for a long time now? In 2019 there was one super tournament in which Protoss was doing really well and Protoss got immediately nerfed. Zerg has been dominating for 5 years and have never really been nerfed for it. All the nerfs they have received have either been counter-acted by buffs / nerfs to the other races or were extremely inconsequential. And now they are pushing a very Zerg favored patch 2 weeks before IEM Katowice, can you imagine that happening for Terran or Protoss? Honestly, I don't know what's the reason for this, if Zergs have conspired to get favorable balance, if certain decision-makers at Blizzard like Zerg, if they want Serral and Reynor to perform well or if Terrans and Protoss players are just too polite to vocally voice their opinion. However it's so clear that Zerg is getting preferential treatment by the balance team that I honestly think you are just arguing in bad faith if you try to deny this.
On January 24 2023 07:49 Charoisaur wrote: Yeah letting pros handle patches is just a bad idea, they clearly have a conflict of interest regarding balancing the game which results in the race that has the most influential community members getting all the buffs. Shameful
Protoss has the most players in the balance discord by far and every change is voted on. Every player from the Dreamhack regionals and GSL is in the balance discord (or invited and declined) and thus protoss has the most representation.
So yeah there's no zerg cabal.
I mean, can you really with a straight face say Zerg isn't getting preferential treatment by the balance team and that for a long time now? In 2019 there was one super tournament in which Protoss was doing really well and Protoss got immediately nerfed. Zerg has been dominating for 5 years and have never really been nerfed for it. All the nerfs they have received have either been counter-acted by buffs / nerfs to the other races or were extremely inconsequential. And now they are pushing a very Zerg favored patch 2 weeks before IEM Katowice, can you imagine that happening for Terran or Protoss? Honestly, I don't know what's the reason for this, if Zergs have conspired to get favorable balance, if certain decision-makers at Blizzard like Zerg, if they want Serral and Reynor to perform well or if Terrans and Protoss players are just too polite to vocally voice their opinion. However it's so clear that Zerg is getting preferential treatment by the balance team that I honestly think you are just arguing in bad faith if you try to deny this.
On January 24 2023 07:49 Charoisaur wrote: Yeah letting pros handle patches is just a bad idea, they clearly have a conflict of interest regarding balancing the game which results in the race that has the most influential community members getting all the buffs. Shameful
Protoss has the most players in the balance discord by far and every change is voted on. Every player from the Dreamhack regionals and GSL is in the balance discord (or invited and declined) and thus protoss has the most representation.
So yeah there's no zerg cabal.
I mean, can you really with a straight face say Zerg isn't getting preferential treatment by the balance team and that for a long time now? In 2019 there was one super tournament in which Protoss was doing really well and Protoss got immediately nerfed. Zerg has been dominating for 5 years and have never really been nerfed for it. All the nerfs they have received have either been counter-acted by buffs / nerfs to the other races or were extremely inconsequential. And now they are pushing a very Zerg favored patch 2 weeks before IEM Katowice, can you imagine that happening for Terran or Protoss? Honestly, I don't know what's the reason for this, if Zergs have conspired to get favorable balance, if certain decision-makers at Blizzard like Zerg, if they want Serral and Reynor to perform well or if Terrans and Protoss players are just too polite to vocally voice their opinion. However it's so clear that Zerg is getting preferential treatment by the balance team that I honestly think you are just arguing in bad faith if you try to deny this.
On January 24 2023 07:49 Charoisaur wrote: Yeah letting pros handle patches is just a bad idea, they clearly have a conflict of interest regarding balancing the game which results in the race that has the most influential community members getting all the buffs. Shameful
Protoss has the most players in the balance discord by far and every change is voted on. Every player from the Dreamhack regionals and GSL is in the balance discord (or invited and declined) and thus protoss has the most representation.
So yeah there's no zerg cabal.
I mean, can you really with a straight face say Zerg isn't getting preferential treatment by the balance team and that for a long time now? In 2019 there was one super tournament in which Protoss was doing really well and Protoss got immediately nerfed. Zerg has been dominating for 5 years and have never really been nerfed for it. All the nerfs they have received have either been counter-acted by buffs / nerfs to the other races or were extremely inconsequential. And now they are pushing a very Zerg favored patch 2 weeks before IEM Katowice, can you imagine that happening for Terran or Protoss? Honestly, I don't know what's the reason for this, if Zergs have conspired to get favorable balance, if certain decision-makers at Blizzard like Zerg, if they want Serral and Reynor to perform well or if Terrans and Protoss players are just too polite to vocally voice their opinion. However it's so clear that Zerg is getting preferential treatment by the balance team that I honestly think you are just arguing in bad faith if you try to deny this.
Answer my question:
I mean, can you really with a straight face say Zerg isn't getting preferential treatment by the balance team and that for a long time now?
I know it's a classic to attack the person instead of the argument when you have no arguments left
On January 24 2023 07:49 Charoisaur wrote: Yeah letting pros handle patches is just a bad idea, they clearly have a conflict of interest regarding balancing the game which results in the race that has the most influential community members getting all the buffs. Shameful
Protoss has the most players in the balance discord by far and every change is voted on. Every player from the Dreamhack regionals and GSL is in the balance discord (or invited and declined) and thus protoss has the most representation.
So yeah there's no zerg cabal.
I mean, can you really with a straight face say Zerg isn't getting preferential treatment by the balance team and that for a long time now? In 2019 there was one super tournament in which Protoss was doing really well and Protoss got immediately nerfed. Zerg has been dominating for 5 years and have never really been nerfed for it. All the nerfs they have received have either been counter-acted by buffs / nerfs to the other races or were extremely inconsequential. And now they are pushing a very Zerg favored patch 2 weeks before IEM Katowice, can you imagine that happening for Terran or Protoss? Honestly, I don't know what's the reason for this, if Zergs have conspired to get favorable balance, if certain decision-makers at Blizzard like Zerg, if they want Serral and Reynor to perform well or if Terrans and Protoss players are just too polite to vocally voice their opinion. However it's so clear that Zerg is getting preferential treatment by the balance team that I honestly think you are just arguing in bad faith if you try to deny this.
On January 24 2023 07:49 Charoisaur wrote: Yeah letting pros handle patches is just a bad idea, they clearly have a conflict of interest regarding balancing the game which results in the race that has the most influential community members getting all the buffs. Shameful
Protoss has the most players in the balance discord by far and every change is voted on. Every player from the Dreamhack regionals and GSL is in the balance discord (or invited and declined) and thus protoss has the most representation.
So yeah there's no zerg cabal.
I mean, can you really with a straight face say Zerg isn't getting preferential treatment by the balance team and that for a long time now? In 2019 there was one super tournament in which Protoss was doing really well and Protoss got immediately nerfed. Zerg has been dominating for 5 years and have never really been nerfed for it. All the nerfs they have received have either been counter-acted by buffs / nerfs to the other races or were extremely inconsequential. And now they are pushing a very Zerg favored patch 2 weeks before IEM Katowice, can you imagine that happening for Terran or Protoss? Honestly, I don't know what's the reason for this, if Zergs have conspired to get favorable balance, if certain decision-makers at Blizzard like Zerg, if they want Serral and Reynor to perform well or if Terrans and Protoss players are just too polite to vocally voice their opinion. However it's so clear that Zerg is getting preferential treatment by the balance team that I honestly think you are just arguing in bad faith if you try to deny this.
On January 24 2023 07:49 Charoisaur wrote: Yeah letting pros handle patches is just a bad idea, they clearly have a conflict of interest regarding balancing the game which results in the race that has the most influential community members getting all the buffs. Shameful
Protoss has the most players in the balance discord by far and every change is voted on. Every player from the Dreamhack regionals and GSL is in the balance discord (or invited and declined) and thus protoss has the most representation.
So yeah there's no zerg cabal.
I mean, can you really with a straight face say Zerg isn't getting preferential treatment by the balance team and that for a long time now? In 2019 there was one super tournament in which Protoss was doing really well and Protoss got immediately nerfed. Zerg has been dominating for 5 years and have never really been nerfed for it. All the nerfs they have received have either been counter-acted by buffs / nerfs to the other races or were extremely inconsequential. And now they are pushing a very Zerg favored patch 2 weeks before IEM Katowice, can you imagine that happening for Terran or Protoss? Honestly, I don't know what's the reason for this, if Zergs have conspired to get favorable balance, if certain decision-makers at Blizzard like Zerg, if they want Serral and Reynor to perform well or if Terrans and Protoss players are just too polite to vocally voice their opinion. However it's so clear that Zerg is getting preferential treatment by the balance team that I honestly think you are just arguing in bad faith if you try to deny this.
I mean, can you really with a straight face say Zerg isn't getting preferential treatment by the balance team and that for a long time now?
I know it's a classic to attack the person instead of the argument when you have no arguments left
I'm open to any examples from the recent PTR matches or recent matches (Like the ESL finals between Dark vs. Hero which was AMAZING) that imply that Zerg is going to be pushed over the top from these changes.
All that said, the creep nerf wasn't good enough. It should have been at the level of the Transfuse nerf which absolutely was massive, especially for ZvP.
On January 24 2023 07:49 Charoisaur wrote: Yeah letting pros handle patches is just a bad idea, they clearly have a conflict of interest regarding balancing the game which results in the race that has the most influential community members getting all the buffs. Shameful
Protoss has the most players in the balance discord by far and every change is voted on. Every player from the Dreamhack regionals and GSL is in the balance discord (or invited and declined) and thus protoss has the most representation.
So yeah there's no zerg cabal.
I mean, can you really with a straight face say Zerg isn't getting preferential treatment by the balance team and that for a long time now? In 2019 there was one super tournament in which Protoss was doing really well and Protoss got immediately nerfed. Zerg has been dominating for 5 years and have never really been nerfed for it. All the nerfs they have received have either been counter-acted by buffs / nerfs to the other races or were extremely inconsequential. And now they are pushing a very Zerg favored patch 2 weeks before IEM Katowice, can you imagine that happening for Terran or Protoss? Honestly, I don't know what's the reason for this, if Zergs have conspired to get favorable balance, if certain decision-makers at Blizzard like Zerg, if they want Serral and Reynor to perform well or if Terrans and Protoss players are just too polite to vocally voice their opinion. However it's so clear that Zerg is getting preferential treatment by the balance team that I honestly think you are just arguing in bad faith if you try to deny this.
Answer my question:
I mean, can you really with a straight face say Zerg isn't getting preferential treatment by the balance team and that for a long time now?
I know it's a classic to attack the person instead of the argument when you have no arguments left
"zerg is getting preferential treatment" is your opinion vs every professional gamer. It's pretty obvious whose opinion is more valuable.
Plenty of pros have said Zerg is getting preferential treatment at certain points. Inno, TY, Trap, Heromarine, uThermal, and even Rogue have all made statements suggesting Blizzard favors Zerg. Pretty sure Classic did shortly before his military service as well.
We all agree harmstem at least tries to be objective and is generally reasonable right?
Watch this video from minute 21:30 to 23:00.
A quote that stands out:
"Protoss players are all losers cause we accept the units that are given to us. I feel we have too many content creators that take responsibility for bad play and don't complain on reddit so we're buffed"
He says it half jokingly but I believe there is truth to it.
People like him will try to be objective and remove their biases in balance discussion. This might lead them to overcompensate and end up being slightly biased against themselves.
Even if he doesn't overcompensate, if he is trying to be objective and others are not and are pushing hard for subjective changes, it's inevitable he would be pressured to accept at least some of the changes under the guise of being "reasonable".
If other protoss players are like him, no wonder we get this shitshow.
And let's be honest, Protoss is frustrating to play against. Throughout the game history, regardless of balance or actual winrates, Protoss has had strategies nerfed because they were frustrating to play against, even if the overall winrate for the race wasn't that good.
So it's very possible that a bunch of zergs and Terrans ally together to nerf something that feels frustrating, and the protoss players lack the insistence or are not outspoken enough to get actual compensating buffs to get through.
I believe that's what happened here. Zerg pros are very outspoken (like that harms term video where they rank units and Scarlet wants to put every Zerg unit in C and D tiers) they just live in their little world and are very spoken about it. And Protoss is frustrating to play against so zergs are more outspoken about their issues. Zergs end up getting a lot of buffs, Terran changed end up being a mess, and Protoss ends up with terrible changes that force you to all in in every pvz.
Which btw I'm doing. I've always been a macro player like stats but I'm fed up. If the game wants me to all in I Will
If u think about it, if Serral or Reynor doesnt win anymore, SC2 scene outside of Korea would probably die, so they decided to keep buffing Serral and Reynor so that you English speakers would keep watching the game lol. But yes it is embarassing that Serral needs all these buffs over the years just to barely beat Maru. Maru is built different.
On January 26 2023 00:50 TurtleFish wrote: If u think about it, if Serral or Reynor doesnt win anymore, SC2 scene outside of Korea would probably die, so they decided to keep buffing Serral and Reynor so that you English speakers would keep watching the game lol. But yes it is embarassing that Serral needs all these buffs over the years just to barely beat Maru. Maru is built different.
Now this is a true Zerg cabal mindset.
If serral and reynor don't win anymore the game will die?? What??
On January 26 2023 00:50 TurtleFish wrote: If u think about it, if Serral or Reynor doesnt win anymore, SC2 scene outside of Korea would probably die, so they decided to keep buffing Serral and Reynor so that you English speakers would keep watching the game lol. But yes it is embarassing that Serral needs all these buffs over the years just to barely beat Maru. Maru is built different.
As much as I love a good meme conspiracy, this is probably going a little too far. It's not like there aren't any good Korean Zergs.
On January 24 2023 07:49 Charoisaur wrote: Yeah letting pros handle patches is just a bad idea, they clearly have a conflict of interest regarding balancing the game which results in the race that has the most influential community members getting all the buffs. Shameful
Protoss has the most players in the balance discord by far and every change is voted on. Every player from the Dreamhack regionals and GSL is in the balance discord (or invited and declined) and thus protoss has the most representation.
So yeah there's no zerg cabal.
I mean, can you really with a straight face say Zerg isn't getting preferential treatment by the balance team and that for a long time now? In 2019 there was one super tournament in which Protoss was doing really well and Protoss got immediately nerfed. Zerg has been dominating for 5 years and have never really been nerfed for it. All the nerfs they have received have either been counter-acted by buffs / nerfs to the other races or were extremely inconsequential. And now they are pushing a very Zerg favored patch 2 weeks before IEM Katowice, can you imagine that happening for Terran or Protoss? Honestly, I don't know what's the reason for this, if Zergs have conspired to get favorable balance, if certain decision-makers at Blizzard like Zerg, if they want Serral and Reynor to perform well or if Terrans and Protoss players are just too polite to vocally voice their opinion. However it's so clear that Zerg is getting preferential treatment by the balance team that I honestly think you are just arguing in bad faith if you try to deny this.
Answer my question:
I mean, can you really with a straight face say Zerg isn't getting preferential treatment by the balance team and that for a long time now?
I know it's a classic to attack the person instead of the argument when you have no arguments left
Zerg isn't getting preferential treatment
So you think if Protoss would win 50% of tournaments they wouldn't be getting nerfed?
On January 24 2023 07:49 Charoisaur wrote: Yeah letting pros handle patches is just a bad idea, they clearly have a conflict of interest regarding balancing the game which results in the race that has the most influential community members getting all the buffs. Shameful
Protoss has the most players in the balance discord by far and every change is voted on. Every player from the Dreamhack regionals and GSL is in the balance discord (or invited and declined) and thus protoss has the most representation.
So yeah there's no zerg cabal.
I mean, can you really with a straight face say Zerg isn't getting preferential treatment by the balance team and that for a long time now? In 2019 there was one super tournament in which Protoss was doing really well and Protoss got immediately nerfed. Zerg has been dominating for 5 years and have never really been nerfed for it. All the nerfs they have received have either been counter-acted by buffs / nerfs to the other races or were extremely inconsequential. And now they are pushing a very Zerg favored patch 2 weeks before IEM Katowice, can you imagine that happening for Terran or Protoss? Honestly, I don't know what's the reason for this, if Zergs have conspired to get favorable balance, if certain decision-makers at Blizzard like Zerg, if they want Serral and Reynor to perform well or if Terrans and Protoss players are just too polite to vocally voice their opinion. However it's so clear that Zerg is getting preferential treatment by the balance team that I honestly think you are just arguing in bad faith if you try to deny this.
Answer my question:
I mean, can you really with a straight face say Zerg isn't getting preferential treatment by the balance team and that for a long time now?
I know it's a classic to attack the person instead of the argument when you have no arguments left
Zerg isn't getting preferential treatment
So you think if Protoss would win 50% of tournaments they wouldn't be getting nerfed?
Only 1 person can win a tournament, you can't use it as a metric of balance.
Protoss should maintain about a 50% win rate in pro games.
Reynor mentioned this in his stream the other day - to him this patch is more about breathing life back into the game, not about making drastic game altering changes.
On January 24 2023 07:49 Charoisaur wrote: Yeah letting pros handle patches is just a bad idea, they clearly have a conflict of interest regarding balancing the game which results in the race that has the most influential community members getting all the buffs. Shameful
Protoss has the most players in the balance discord by far and every change is voted on. Every player from the Dreamhack regionals and GSL is in the balance discord (or invited and declined) and thus protoss has the most representation.
So yeah there's no zerg cabal.
I mean, can you really with a straight face say Zerg isn't getting preferential treatment by the balance team and that for a long time now? In 2019 there was one super tournament in which Protoss was doing really well and Protoss got immediately nerfed. Zerg has been dominating for 5 years and have never really been nerfed for it. All the nerfs they have received have either been counter-acted by buffs / nerfs to the other races or were extremely inconsequential. And now they are pushing a very Zerg favored patch 2 weeks before IEM Katowice, can you imagine that happening for Terran or Protoss? Honestly, I don't know what's the reason for this, if Zergs have conspired to get favorable balance, if certain decision-makers at Blizzard like Zerg, if they want Serral and Reynor to perform well or if Terrans and Protoss players are just too polite to vocally voice their opinion. However it's so clear that Zerg is getting preferential treatment by the balance team that I honestly think you are just arguing in bad faith if you try to deny this.
Answer my question:
I mean, can you really with a straight face say Zerg isn't getting preferential treatment by the balance team and that for a long time now?
I know it's a classic to attack the person instead of the argument when you have no arguments left
Zerg isn't getting preferential treatment
So you think if Protoss would win 50% of tournaments they wouldn't be getting nerfed?
Reynor mentioned this in his stream the other day - to him this patch is more about breathing life back into the game, not about making drastic game altering changes.
A Zerg player happy about the patch? I'm so surprised.
Won't answer to the mental gymnastics of you trying to argue one race winning 50% of tournaments is fine. We both know you'd be up in arms about it if your race was on the other side.
On January 24 2023 07:49 Charoisaur wrote: Yeah letting pros handle patches is just a bad idea, they clearly have a conflict of interest regarding balancing the game which results in the race that has the most influential community members getting all the buffs. Shameful
Protoss has the most players in the balance discord by far and every change is voted on. Every player from the Dreamhack regionals and GSL is in the balance discord (or invited and declined) and thus protoss has the most representation.
So yeah there's no zerg cabal.
I mean, can you really with a straight face say Zerg isn't getting preferential treatment by the balance team and that for a long time now? In 2019 there was one super tournament in which Protoss was doing really well and Protoss got immediately nerfed. Zerg has been dominating for 5 years and have never really been nerfed for it. All the nerfs they have received have either been counter-acted by buffs / nerfs to the other races or were extremely inconsequential. And now they are pushing a very Zerg favored patch 2 weeks before IEM Katowice, can you imagine that happening for Terran or Protoss? Honestly, I don't know what's the reason for this, if Zergs have conspired to get favorable balance, if certain decision-makers at Blizzard like Zerg, if they want Serral and Reynor to perform well or if Terrans and Protoss players are just too polite to vocally voice their opinion. However it's so clear that Zerg is getting preferential treatment by the balance team that I honestly think you are just arguing in bad faith if you try to deny this.
Answer my question:
I mean, can you really with a straight face say Zerg isn't getting preferential treatment by the balance team and that for a long time now?
I know it's a classic to attack the person instead of the argument when you have no arguments left
"zerg is getting preferential treatment" is your opinion vs every professional gamer. It's pretty obvious whose opinion is more valuable.
Plenty of pros have said Zerg is getting preferential treatment at certain points. Inno, TY, Trap, Heromarine, uThermal, and even Rogue have all made statements suggesting Blizzard favors Zerg. Pretty sure Classic did shortly before his military service as well.
Ahh that are not the players he meant. He just meant the objective and unbiased players like Lambo and Scarlett, only their opinion should be considered as opposed to biased terran players
EPT
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