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On February 12 2023 17:44 TequilaMockingbird wrote:
Changes are nice and all but can we open up the conversation about the carrier once more please ? I made an angry rant post somewhere in this thread earlier so I will try and refrain from repeating myself... Toss can still go straight to Carrier
in ZvP, turtle behind cannons and batteries, slowly take more bases and then a-move across the map once they have amassed enough stuff. "Unfair" does not even begin to describe to extremely imbalanced this strat is below a certain level (high masters / gm I guess). Have not noticed the interceptor buff making much of a change in my games against Carriers
since the patch hit.
Does that need to be in the game so people with less than 100 apm can also win games ?
I am done playing against this nonsense, really kills my passion for sc2.
Oh wow you have more than 100 apm as zerg that's impressive clearly you deserve to win all of your games.
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Limit the number of carriers by 3 per Stargate.
Or at least forbid the chrono boost on this type of unit.
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On February 12 2023 23:55 Vision_ wrote:
Limit the number of carriers by 3 per Stargate.
Or at least forbid the chrono boost on this type of unit.
Please stop.
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On February 13 2023 00:16 Beelzebub1 wrote:Show nested quote +On February 12 2023 23:55 Vision_ wrote:
Limit the number of carriers by 3 per Stargate.
Or at least forbid the chrono boost on this type of unit. Please stop.
You are stopping anyone.
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Mexico2170 Posts
Shameless Zergs complaining about carriers after they have been double nerfed.
Just make 1 or 2 base nydus, and 1 drop ovelord with 4-5 lings. Drop the lings first to distract, harass and then drop the nydus and protect it with the lings or distract the protoss so they dont seethe nydus, you'll never have to face carriers again.
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On February 13 2023 00:43 [Phantom] wrote:
Shameless Zergs complaining about carriers after they have been double nerfed.
Just make 1 or 2 base nydus, and 1 drop ovelord with 4-5 lings. Drop the lings first to distract, harass and then drop the nydus and protect it with the lings or distract the protoss so they dont seethe nydus, you'll never have to face carriers again.
Stop whining with your 3.4k metal league experience in every thread, please.
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On February 13 2023 01:06 syndbg wrote:Show nested quote +On February 13 2023 00:43 [Phantom] wrote:
Shameless Zergs complaining about carriers after they have been double nerfed.
Just make 1 or 2 base nydus, and 1 drop ovelord with 4-5 lings. Drop the lings first to distract, harass and then drop the nydus and protect it with the lings or distract the protoss so they dont seethe nydus, you'll never have to face carriers again. Stop whining with your 3.4k metal league experience in every thread, please.
You don't understand, just 1 base nydus to counter the carriers.
Ezpz
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Mexico2170 Posts
On February 13 2023 01:06 syndbg wrote:Show nested quote +On February 13 2023 00:43 [Phantom] wrote:
Shameless Zergs complaining about carriers after they have been double nerfed.
Just make 1 or 2 base nydus, and 1 drop ovelord with 4-5 lings. Drop the lings first to distract, harass and then drop the nydus and protect it with the lings or distract the protoss so they dont seethe nydus, you'll never have to face carriers again. Stop whining with your 3.4k metal league experience in every thread, please.
I'm not in a metal league. Also I leave basically all pvps. I don't really care about mmr.
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Imho, even though people complained that this patch did nothing to curb zerg dominance, I believe it did so in subtle ways and is a great patch!
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On February 13 2023 09:55 Azzur wrote:
Imho, even though people complained that this patch did nothing to curb zerg dominance, I believe it did so in subtle ways and is a great patch!
toss player and i'm reasonably okay with the patch. based on what i've seen in tournaments and my own experience the ravager and sentry changes subtly altered the early midgame dynamic in a way that does matter. it didn't make the matchup perfect by any means, and i still think toss's strengths should be taken out of air and put more into ground for better gameplay, but it's not a terrible patch
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No, it is a shit patch. Because it weakened Protoss even more than it already was. Terran is in even more of an allin position, even though that position have been buffed. It's still not a style every Terran wants to play every game (or so I hope). And Zerg will be invincible when they get to late game due to OP BL's and Infestors (now without an answer).
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After Katowice I still don't know what to think about patch influence on the results.
- Serral was eliminated in ZvZ but didn't have any problems in ZvP or ZvT even vs really strong herO and Byun.
- Dark was clearly shaken and not himself - he lost to Neeb, almost lost to Creator and was destroyed by herO who didn't even play that good in those series. I'm not sure Dark's performance is indicative of anything.
- Reynor lost to a player who suddenly started playing like SC2 god (Oliveira) and who later destroyed herO and Maru. Before that he smashed his group full of P/T, but of course none of them were real top-player.
- Solar and Ragnarok looked really good until they met their nemesis in Maru, where it's more of a mental thing than anything else.
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On February 13 2023 09:55 Azzur wrote:
Imho, even though people complained that this patch did nothing to curb zerg dominance, I believe it did so in subtle ways and is a great patch!
I don't think you can make any conclusions about balance from a single tournament because of bracket luck and players making individual mistakes. Keep in mind Maru avoided all the top Zergs and Time went 1-2 against Zergs this tournament. If Serral didn't leave so early and Reynor played game 4 a bit more methodically instead of throwing continous Ling Ultra armies into the meatgrinder we could've been looking at a ZvZ finals with everyone compkaining and taking it as proof Zerg is overpowered.
Whether the game is balanced or not can only be said after a larger sample of tournaments but my gut feeling after watching the games says TvZ is slightly in favor of Zerg and TvP slightly in favor of terran. The few games we saw Broodlords they looked insane
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France12792 Posts
Yeah, it looks like zerg is strong in both matchups while terran seems to have more dangerous mid game timings versus protoss because of the battery nerf. However we could not see herO vs top form Dark, or herO vs Serral in an elimination series.
Similarly, Reynor is too one dimensional in ZvT late game and didn’t try to use broodlords until it was too late. I feel like we were close to another ZvZ finals in Serral vs Reynor but somehow it didn’t happen. With Dark going to the military service soon and Solar being too afraid of Maru, we probably won’t even see the TvZ lategame at highest level until DH:masters.
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Yeah, for me the only balance takeaway from the tournament is that Protoss is way too brittle against Terran pushes. Super charged battery isn't great design, but taking it away without larger compensation was a mistake.
Maru playing late game TvZ against Dark/Reynor/Serral would have been great to see to better understand the patch, but due to brackets that didn't happen.
EDIT: Hydras might also be too strong in PvZ, and there's a risk that play in the MU becomes either collosus or funky timings. I honestly wouldn't be opposed to some sort of storm buff that makes it more viable to go storm as your first form of splash but doesn't substantially change how storm works late game. That way viper timings from Zerg would be riskier, and more build order variety is always good.
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My take away is that balance looks pretty good, Protoss ground game seems soooo close to being where it needs to be, Ghosts don't seem to be much worse at killing Ultralisks, Cyclones got alot more usage, and the creep "nerf" was predictably useless.
If a low level (lol) Terran player like TIME can up his game play and win convincingly against one of the best Zergs and the current best Protoss, you'd be pretty hard pressed to argue that the game is imbalanced. If it was imbalanced there would have been next to no way TIME could have made that run.
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On February 13 2023 22:26 dysenterymd wrote:
Yeah, for me the only balance takeaway from the tournament is that Protoss is way too brittle against Terran pushes. Super charged battery isn't great design, but taking it away without larger compensation was a mistake.
Maru playing late game TvZ against Dark/Reynor/Serral would have been great to see to better understand the patch, but due to brackets that didn't happen.
EDIT: Hydras might also be too strong in PvZ, and there's a risk that play in the MU becomes either collosus or funky timings. I honestly wouldn't be opposed to some sort of storm buff that makes it more viable to go storm as your first form of splash but doesn't substantially change how storm works late game. That way viper timings from Zerg would be riskier, and more build order variety is always good.
It really feels like Protoss could use a bit better defense.
Zerg has queens to tank and transfuse, Terran has PFs and repair, and most of their units can be used very well defensively.
I thought this before and still do, I think the Overcharge nerf was too much. I know Raven AA missile got nerfed, but it's offset a little cus Interference Missile got buffed because Raven is cheaper now for disabling. If you compare those changes to Protoss getting a Sentry that keeps up a little better with Zealots, faster OBS but much nerfed Overcharge, it doesn't seem equal. (Sentry movement is a nice buff but still tiny overall, and also it helps moreso with attacking than defending).
Honestly, why couldn't Battery Overcharge have been compensated in another way, such as increasing the duration even by 1 single second? Or even increasing the range by 1? Just something to encourage it to be used in a more active and micro intensive way, such as fighting a bit with your army right outside your base to make use of the recharge, and to move away from it being something you use last second when the push is already at your base (which people don't like to play against/watch, and is the reason people didn't want it healing so fast and it being hard to outdamage).
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Honestly, to everyone saying Overchard nerf was huge, yeah it is, build some more batteries, problem solved. It is not like Zerg has only 1 Queen and can deny any push, most of them spam them like Lings, and in most Cheese the Protoss do exactly that, spam Batteries with the push, but not for defense... like "Yeah I will try to Overcharge one Pylon and I will be fine"
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On February 13 2023 22:58 Beelzebub1 wrote:
My take away is that balance looks pretty good, Protoss ground game seems soooo close to being where it needs to be, Ghosts don't seem to be much worse at killing Ultralisks, Cyclones got alot more usage, and the creep "nerf" was predictably useless.
If a low level (lol) Terran player like TIME can up his game play and win convincingly against one of the best Zergs and the current best Protoss, you'd be pretty hard pressed to argue that the game is imbalanced. If it was imbalanced there would have been next to no way TIME could have made that run.
Time didn't really win "convincingly" vs Reynor. It was a close series where Reynor lost an opportunity to close it out by headbutting ling-bane-ultra into tank-liberator-ghost-hellbat for way too long, in typical Reynor fashion.
And Time is not "low-level", he's always been mechanically excellent, but his results have never reflected his skill.
He practiced incredibly hard for this (12-15 hours a day is insane) and the stars aligned for him.
Overall, I agree with Charoisaur, ZvT looks Zerg favored (though not unplayable), and TvP is strongly Terran favored (the battery nerf was too far).
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On February 14 2023 00:23 Sogetsu wrote:
Honestly, to everyone saying Overchard nerf was huge, yeah it is, build some more batteries, problem solved. It is not like Zerg has only 1 Queen and can deny any push, most of them spam them like Lings, and in most Cheese the Protoss do exactly that, spam Batteries with the push, but not for defense... like "Yeah I will try to Overcharge one Pylon and I will be fine"
That's true, and makes me wonder if Batteries themselves could have a tiny buff, even if it was just like 5-10% better.
Because that would be a way to offset the power of Overcharge to the plain Batteries themselves.
Also, since Batteries now already have a mechanic where they start with less energy if built offensively, you can buff Batteries slightly without worrying.
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EPT
