On January 31 2023 20:14 Charoisaur wrote: After playing a bit I have to say I actually like the Raven change (definitely a buff) but really dislike the Cyclone change. Cyclones just feel worse. Considering Roaches and Stalkers are so easily mass produced, the extra damage to armor was more important imo. I don't really mind the Zerg changes tbh but still have the feeling the patch was a clear Zerg net buff. We'll see at Katowice I guess. I really like the TvP changes though so at least there's that
I'd like to add that - as an enjoyer of Void Ray memes - the new Cyclone is much less useful defensively.
EDIT:
The reasons given for the Cyclone change seem to imply that they wanted to encourage battle-mech styles by making the Cyclone more of an all-rounder. Battle-mech was a very niche style before the changes, so I don't know how much appetite there was for such a change. I can't imagine there was much.
It's only a niche because it's easy to counter. Before they traded evenly with Stalkers, but now they will need Tank support to deal with Stalkers, but that's not the worst thing, because they deal with the rest of the Toss arsenal way better. The biggest buff is probably the auto cast range though. I think at least half the Terran playerbase would play mech if it was viable and so many play it regardless of its viability, this just shows the appeal of it. They buffed mech and Terran in general quite a bit, but the late game is simply gone. The Infestor alone deals with everything in a split situation. Fungal outranges all except Libs, Tanks and the Infestor can even take a hit from those units and still get the Fungal off and escape. EMP was what kept Fungal in balance, because it was just as imba in its AoE. And Fungal of course cancels Snipe, so there's no reason to get Ghosts unless you wanna mass Nuke and even that was nerfed, because of the faster Brood Lords. Maybe this is the intent, we can let Terrans turtle as long as they can't win late game, meaning they have to push out eventually. This is a solution, but I would prefer if Terran had the stronger late game, forcing Zergs to push the issue, this would be more dynamic, since Terrans are usually the aggressors prior to the late game and so it creates a nice shift in the matchup.
On January 31 2023 20:14 Charoisaur wrote: After playing a bit I have to say I actually like the Raven change (definitely a buff) but really dislike the Cyclone change. Cyclones just feel worse. Considering Roaches and Stalkers are so easily mass produced, the extra damage to armor was more important imo. I don't really mind the Zerg changes tbh but still have the feeling the patch was a clear Zerg net buff. We'll see at Katowice I guess. I really like the TvP changes though so at least there's that
You generally don't even want your cyclones to engage against light units, thats what hellions are for. The problem with battle mech is that cyclones reach a critical point in wich they become infective quite fast and you lose a ton of DPS, even massing roaches and stalkers can eventually deal with cyclones (even tough cyclones are supposed to beat those units).
Tha AI of lock-on makes it so you never want to make more than a few cyclones early game so these attack changes do nothing for them.
On January 31 2023 22:11 ejozl wrote: They buffed mech and Terran in general quite a bit
How exactly did they buff mech "and Terran in general"?
I'd say mech is just as unviable now as it was before. As others said above, you just cannot effectively mass Cyclones anyway. So basically 5/10 composition maybe became 6/10. It's still bad. I would be very happy to be proven wrong - but I doubt it will happen unfortunately.
Ghost was too strong indeed - but this was necessary because other T late game options are crap. Nerfing ghost (staple unit) and not buffing other late game options means T will probably use all-ins more often. And it's not like with ghosts terrans won 8 world championships in a row or won 50%+ major tournaments.
On January 31 2023 22:11 ejozl wrote: They buffed mech and Terran in general quite a bit
How exactly did they buff mech "and Terran in general"?
I'd say mech is just as unviable now as it was before. As others said above, you just cannot effectively mass Cyclones anyway. So basically 5/10 composition maybe became 6/10. It's still bad. I would be very happy to be proven wrong - but I doubt it will happen unfortunately.
Ghost was too strong indeed - but this was necessary because other T late game options are crap. Nerfing ghost (staple unit) and not buffing other late game options means T will probably use all-ins more often. And it's not like with ghosts terrans won 8 world championships in a row or won 50%+ major tournaments.
Incredible Protoss nerfs. Creep Tumour nerf when placing many of them. (nerf doesn't affect single tumour, because of the time it takes to spread its creep to its full range) Cyclone auto cast buff and dmg slight buff. Small buffs to Viking, Banshee. Major buff to Liberator and Raven.
Regarding TvP i do think the cyclone is just worse.
But I do think the raven change was good, and the Liberator change was good, if annoying as they are cheaper to do when Terran is making those 1-1-1 Allins..
One thing I would have liked is that they buffed viking responsiveness, and Hydras as well, would have been nice to see a similar buff to the tempest.
It seems some Terrans are trying mass liberators and in the mid/late and in some of these maps it gets really tricky to deal with. I would have liked for tempest to be buffed so they could do better vs liberators. You need like 5 of them to 1 shot them, and they are very bad at kiting BC and other things. Not supper common, I know, but other races got those usability buffs, I don't think the tempest is too strong to be buffed
Liberator being 25 gas is good but it's not "major" buff IMO, terrans usually have enough gas anyway. And I'd guess Raven changes will not make any significant difference outside of TvT. Cyclon damage buff - how it's a buff, they are worse now vs their main target roaches, stalkers and oracles. Yeah, they are better vs ravagers and queens, but I'd say it's an even trade at best.
Cyclones dumpstering Ravagers, Queens, and Mutalisks is huge in TvZ. Those were the problem units for battlemech, not roaches.
Go watch some of Heromarine's battlemech games. Being able to bully queens means creep control is way stronger, and mass ravager is no longer a soft counter (if anything it's the other way around now, Cyclones counter ravagers).
Is battlemech viable at the top level? Who knows. But it's way closer than it has been in years.
On the other hand, TvP mech is a lost cause, so the change doesn't matter.
It seems some Terrans are trying mass liberators and in the mid/late and in some of these maps it gets really tricky to deal with. I would have liked for tempest to be buffed so they could do better vs liberators. You need like 5 of them to 1 shot them, and they are very bad at kiting BC and other things. Not supper common, I know, but other races got those usability buffs, I don't think the tempest is too strong to be buffed
I have no clue on the patch feed back but it s pretty sure that range nerf from tempest in a previous patch was insane. Maybe Blizzard nerfed tempest so much in regard of the golden armada, so it would be quite difficult to improve this unit which isn t not looking so badly in the protoss army
On January 31 2023 05:13 moonsjde wrote: pivoting a bit from balance and back to the maps, i'm getting tired of the trend of maps having visually ambiguous or weirdly shaped ramps (or natural base openings). i'm all for maps looking attractive, but when it takes me game after game to figure out how to wall a ramp because the visual design makes no sense it gets old. walling is extremely important for toss and i do not see it as fun or interesting to keep having to re-learn it. either make pylons raise and lower like depots or standardize all natural base ramps, and for gods sake make it clear where the pathable terrain ends
Can't agree more. There is one map where if you put the pylon in the "normal spot" it blocks the nexus... In any other map it doesn't, so after I lost 2 games in 3 days because of that I just vetoed because I'm not going to be fighting my muscle memory and giving the occasional free win just because of bad map design.
There is a second map where if you get baneling busted and you need to make more buildings behind the front gates, there is a tree or something on the side where you cannot place a building so you'd assume if you place the gate beside that you'd complete the second wall, but it turns out zerglings can go through that place. So you either need a second gate if the pylon energy field let's you, or two more pylons just to block 1 square that's in a really awkard position and looks as if units shouldn't be able to pass there. And there goes another free win for Zerg.
That and the fact some map makers insist to put an invisible spot for overlord to permanently have vision over your natural entrance and sometimes even your gas until you can get air vision, which the only thing it does is make Protoss more succeptible in what already is their weakest spot.
It might be convenient, especially for players like me who don't play very regularly, if maps had some terrain decoration at the Pylon location, like they do for the Nexus/Hatchery/Command Centre. Don't know if this is a priority at all, or should just be considered a skill issue we should deal with on our own, but it's an idea.
I just looked at this HM replay, this video shows how strong the mech can be with the new cyclone. I m afraid of the income of Katowice 2023 because of the ability of cyclone to constantly dps the swarm. Interesting, i m surprised but wondering if the new cyclone isn t too harmfull ??
I just looked at this HM replay, this video shows how strong the mech can be with the new cyclone. I m afraid of the income of Katowice 2023 because of the ability of cyclone to constantly dps the swarm. Interesting, i m surprised but wondering if the new cyclone isn t too harmfull ??
Oh no, Zerg might possibly have some difficulty with a strategy for a month or two!
On February 01 2023 04:43 Fanatic-Templar wrote: It might be convenient, especially for players like me who don't play very regularly, if maps had some terrain decoration at the Pylon location, like they do for the Nexus/Hatchery/Command Centre. Don't know if this is a priority at all, or should just be considered a skill issue we should deal with on our own, but it's an idea.
yea we gotta do our homework at the start of the season and learn those walls. i had an idea previously, but did not have the time to make a good presenatation.
the basic idea is that whenever (any race) the player presses the build hotkey (either basic or advanced), the building grid would show immediatelly, with maybe stronger color tints showing unaccessible cells. choosing the first on this list: - darker brown or red tint for unbuildable terrain - blue tint near minerals - green tint near gas
additionally, there could be some additional helpers drawn near the cursor. - a visible 2x2 rectangle drawn on the grid showing where the pylon would go if the player selects pylon and left click where the mouse is at - a visible 3x3 rectangle showing the location of a 3x3 building (gateway/rax/evo) - a visible 5x5 rectangle showing the location of a town hall
3x3 is always centered inside the 5x5, the 2x2 helper always shares two walls with the 3x3 helper.
you know the extractor trick right? even before having 100 minerals to press build-pilon, you press build-assimilator, and use the red 3x3 helper to position yourself at the ramp to place the pylon. check Showtime's stream. or to place a hatch you press build-extractor and position the 3x3 and it's brown 3 cell wide border to get 1 cell close to the minerals and gas, before you place the hatch/town hall.
I just looked at this HM replay, this video shows how strong the mech can be with the new cyclone. I m afraid of the income of Katowice 2023 because of the ability of cyclone to constantly dps the swarm. Interesting, i m surprised but wondering if the new cyclone isn t too harmfull ??
I'm pretty sure this was done before they fixed the fact that the cyclone change wasnt actually in the map.
I just looked at this HM replay, this video shows how strong the mech can be with the new cyclone. I m afraid of the income of Katowice 2023 because of the ability of cyclone to constantly dps the swarm. Interesting, i m surprised but wondering if the new cyclone isn t too harmfull ??
I'm pretty sure this was done before they fixed the fact that the cyclone change wasnt actually in the map.
No, this was played during the EU ESL weekly a couple weeks back. All of those were on the 5.0.11 balance mod which had the change.
There's novelty that works first month, or maybe even first few times when your opponents are not prepared. And there are actually strong options that work even if your opponent is used to them. Time will tell but I strongly suspect Cyclone changes are the former case, not latter.
So many strategies and builds (especially vs Z) were viable just for a month or even less, but didn't affect the overall balance state long term.
The strategic role of cyclones is less overlaped with thors anti armored function. I find a similarity with Lurkers which are able to do well against all, but this kind of unit is risky for the balance.
I would be glad to see ultralisks carrying Zerg army in front of the Terran lines because of their cyclones damage nerf against armored units.
the Cyclone was supposed to be a counter to Ultras, this was when they also gave them super armour. This was so that Terrans would be forced to transition away from Marauder, Marines. The Cyclone is just bad late game tho so it could never be the counter to Ultras.
I'm not sure if I've ever seen Cyclons being a counter vs Ultras. When you've seen it last time, I wonder? It's possible in theory, on paper, in vacuum. But in real life this just doesn't work. Ultras are always supported by lings who hard counter cyclones. Maybe if hellions had a late game upgrade that would allow them to attack on the move... then battle mech would be more viable.
On February 01 2023 19:19 ZeroByte13 wrote: I'm not sure if I've ever seen Cyclons being a counter vs Ultras. When you've seen it last time, I wonder? It's possible in theory, on paper, in vacuum. But in real life this just doesn't work. Ultras are always supported by lings who hard counter cyclones. Maybe if hellions had a late game upgrade that would allow them to attack on the move... then battle mech would be more viable.
Well, you've never seen it because going Ultras against Battle mech is like the stupidest thing you could ever do.
EPT
