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On January 26 2023 03:02 Charoisaur wrote:Show nested quote +On January 26 2023 02:35 Drfilip wrote:On January 26 2023 00:04 JJH777 wrote:On January 25 2023 23:52 RiSkysc2 wrote:On January 25 2023 23:42 Charoisaur wrote:On January 25 2023 23:18 RiSkysc2 wrote:On January 25 2023 22:27 Charoisaur wrote:On January 25 2023 09:16 RiSkysc2 wrote:On January 24 2023 07:49 Charoisaur wrote:
Yeah letting pros handle patches is just a bad idea, they clearly have a conflict of interest regarding balancing the game which results in the race that has the most influential community members getting all the buffs. Shameful Protoss has the most players in the balance discord by far and every change is voted on. Every player from the Dreamhack regionals and GSL is in the balance discord (or invited and declined) and thus protoss has the most representation. So yeah there's no zerg cabal. I mean, can you really with a straight face say Zerg isn't getting preferential treatment by the balance team and that for a long time now? In 2019 there was one super tournament in which Protoss was doing really well and Protoss got immediately nerfed. Zerg has been dominating for 5 years and have never really been nerfed for it. All the nerfs they have received have either been counter-acted by buffs / nerfs to the other races or were extremely inconsequential. And now they are pushing a very Zerg favored patch 2 weeks before IEM Katowice, can you imagine that happening for Terran or Protoss? Honestly, I don't know what's the reason for this, if Zergs have conspired to get favorable balance, if certain decision-makers at Blizzard like Zerg, if they want Serral and Reynor to perform well or if Terrans and Protoss players are just too polite to vocally voice their opinion. However it's so clear that Zerg is getting preferential treatment by the balance team that I honestly think you are just arguing in bad faith if you try to deny this. ![[image loading]](https://miro.medium.com/max/640/1*6ss9wuGIVSnPKOKmCeS3tA.webp) Answer my question: I mean, can you really with a straight face say Zerg isn't getting preferential treatment by the balance team and that for a long time now? I know it's a classic to attack the person instead of the argument when you have no arguments left "zerg is getting preferential treatment" is your opinion vs every professional gamer. It's pretty obvious whose opinion is more valuable. Plenty of pros have said Zerg is getting preferential treatment at certain points. Inno, TY, Trap, Heromarine, uThermal, and even Rogue have all made statements suggesting Blizzard favors Zerg. Pretty sure Classic did shortly before his military service as well. INnoVation proclaimed Zerg OP and is impossible to beat. INno had 85+% winrate in TvZ at the time. That's close to the opposite of "impossible to beat." TY has claimed both Zerg OP and Protoss OP. He himself chose replays to highlight these imbalances in SC2 shows, and the people there were poking holes in everything. Example: TY: Terran can't keep up economically. Others: You have 108 SCVs with oversaturation on every mining base and still producing SCVs. You also have a lot of resources in the bank with several spare Orbital Commands. Why not stop at 80 SCVs and make bigger army? TY: If I lose SCVs to harass I'll be behind. Others: You have a lot of CCs and a bank. TY: I guess... Trap made claims of Protoss being weak, won several tournaments and kept claiming Protoss is weak. Trap, INno and TY are among the worst individuals to name drop in this contexts. They have a history of hypocrisy in this topic. Rogue is a genuine OP claimant. "Zerg seems strong so I applied myself and won." Love this, you just said unironically what I said ironically Show nested quote +Ahh that are not the players he meant. He just meant the objective and unbiased players like Lambo and Scarlett, only their opinion should be considered as opposed to biased terran players
so predictable. You say we should listen to pros but if the pros have a different opinion than you you say their opinion doesn't count because they're biased. But the pros who have the same opinion as you are of course unbiased. Also your argumentation makes absolutely zero sense. So if Fruitdealer said Zerg is weak after winning the first GSL his opinion would be invalid because he just won?
You read my post as if I thought Zerg is fine. That is only your assumption.
I said that 3 of the mentioned players have shown extreme bias in this question. They are therefore bad examples.
I have the stance of Zerg being more powerful in the last few years.
You say my arguments makes no sense. I have seen what happens when I try to be thorough. The post becomes long and people skip past it. I have seen things I've proven to be false being part of the discussion after my post.
I say that INno had very high win rate. I could find that exact point in time and post sources of the Korean scene having more wins for all Terrans, not just INnoVation.
I could do the same for Trap. TY is harder to do since I do not remember exactly when this was.
I am not the best with words so I try to limit myself in order to be understood. My filter between what I want to have said and what I have written is not reliable for me. For that I am sorry.
I should have included something about the state of the scene and not just the individuals in questions.
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On January 28 2023 05:04 Drfilip wrote:Show nested quote +On January 26 2023 03:02 Charoisaur wrote:On January 26 2023 02:35 Drfilip wrote:On January 26 2023 00:04 JJH777 wrote:On January 25 2023 23:52 RiSkysc2 wrote:On January 25 2023 23:42 Charoisaur wrote:On January 25 2023 23:18 RiSkysc2 wrote:On January 25 2023 22:27 Charoisaur wrote:On January 25 2023 09:16 RiSkysc2 wrote:On January 24 2023 07:49 Charoisaur wrote:
Yeah letting pros handle patches is just a bad idea, they clearly have a conflict of interest regarding balancing the game which results in the race that has the most influential community members getting all the buffs. Shameful Protoss has the most players in the balance discord by far and every change is voted on. Every player from the Dreamhack regionals and GSL is in the balance discord (or invited and declined) and thus protoss has the most representation. So yeah there's no zerg cabal. I mean, can you really with a straight face say Zerg isn't getting preferential treatment by the balance team and that for a long time now? In 2019 there was one super tournament in which Protoss was doing really well and Protoss got immediately nerfed. Zerg has been dominating for 5 years and have never really been nerfed for it. All the nerfs they have received have either been counter-acted by buffs / nerfs to the other races or were extremely inconsequential. And now they are pushing a very Zerg favored patch 2 weeks before IEM Katowice, can you imagine that happening for Terran or Protoss? Honestly, I don't know what's the reason for this, if Zergs have conspired to get favorable balance, if certain decision-makers at Blizzard like Zerg, if they want Serral and Reynor to perform well or if Terrans and Protoss players are just too polite to vocally voice their opinion. However it's so clear that Zerg is getting preferential treatment by the balance team that I honestly think you are just arguing in bad faith if you try to deny this. Answer my question: I mean, can you really with a straight face say Zerg isn't getting preferential treatment by the balance team and that for a long time now? I know it's a classic to attack the person instead of the argument when you have no arguments left "zerg is getting preferential treatment" is your opinion vs every professional gamer. It's pretty obvious whose opinion is more valuable. Plenty of pros have said Zerg is getting preferential treatment at certain points. Inno, TY, Trap, Heromarine, uThermal, and even Rogue have all made statements suggesting Blizzard favors Zerg. Pretty sure Classic did shortly before his military service as well. INnoVation proclaimed Zerg OP and is impossible to beat. INno had 85+% winrate in TvZ at the time. That's close to the opposite of "impossible to beat." TY has claimed both Zerg OP and Protoss OP. He himself chose replays to highlight these imbalances in SC2 shows, and the people there were poking holes in everything. Example: TY: Terran can't keep up economically. Others: You have 108 SCVs with oversaturation on every mining base and still producing SCVs. You also have a lot of resources in the bank with several spare Orbital Commands. Why not stop at 80 SCVs and make bigger army? TY: If I lose SCVs to harass I'll be behind. Others: You have a lot of CCs and a bank. TY: I guess... Trap made claims of Protoss being weak, won several tournaments and kept claiming Protoss is weak. Trap, INno and TY are among the worst individuals to name drop in this contexts. They have a history of hypocrisy in this topic. Rogue is a genuine OP claimant. "Zerg seems strong so I applied myself and won." Love this, you just said unironically what I said ironically Ahh that are not the players he meant. He just meant the objective and unbiased players like Lambo and Scarlett, only their opinion should be considered as opposed to biased terran players
so predictable. You say we should listen to pros but if the pros have a different opinion than you you say their opinion doesn't count because they're biased. But the pros who have the same opinion as you are of course unbiased. Also your argumentation makes absolutely zero sense. So if Fruitdealer said Zerg is weak after winning the first GSL his opinion would be invalid because he just won? You read my post as if I thought Zerg is fine. That is only your assumption. I said that 3 of the mentioned players have shown extreme bias in this question. They are therefore bad examples. I have the stance of Zerg being more powerful in the last few years. You say my arguments makes no sense. I have seen what happens when I try to be thorough. The post becomes long and people skip past it. I have seen things I've proven to be false being part of the discussion after my post. I say that INno had very high win rate. I could find that exact point in time and post sources of the Korean scene having more wins for all Terrans, not just INnoVation. I could do the same for Trap. TY is harder to do since I do not remember exactly when this was. I am not the best with words so I try to limit myself in order to be understood. My filter between what I want to have said and what I have written is not reliable for me. For that I am sorry. I should have included something about the state of the scene and not just the individuals in questions.
Fair enough, I mean I don't disagree that the mentioned players are biased but the thing is that probably most pro players are biased to some extent and some of the more biased players are confirmed to have been involved in some of the decisions done by the balance council.
Therefore, filtering pro feedback to only consider the suggestions from some pro players while ignoring others seems ... disingenous to say the least.
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Colossus can't do friendly fire anymore.
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Mexico2170 Posts
Colossus has never done friednly fire, only storm and disruptors
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On January 30 2023 05:57 [Phantom] wrote:
Colossus has never done friednly fire, only storm and disruptors
he means if you manually order your Collossus to attack your own units they don't do any damage anymore
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To prevent players from mistakes? But why specifically Colossus?
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On January 30 2023 06:18 ZeroByte13 wrote:
To prevent players from mistakes? But why specifically Colossus?
pretty sure it's not intentional
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France12785 Posts
Currently reading the patch notes, why the hell did they buff hydra which is already a strong staple unit from zerg?
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This is the whiniest I've seen TL in a long time.
"Zerg Cabal"? Seriously? Of course, accusing a specific group of secretly being in a cabal that is running the show has never been a problematic position to hold (ya'll know where that shit comes from right?) but, why? Ashamed to see this crap on TL tbh.
Apparently Scarlett, Lambo (and Harstem? so Team Shopify, why specifically them?) have somehow (intimidation? bribery? what?) bent every other pro to their will and are plotting to make it easier for Zerg to win (because why wouldn't they, life is only enjoyable when everything is easy, right?) and murder the SC2 scene in the process, (prbly their main source of income, but I don't actually know that so I wouldn't presume to assert it like it was fact).
I'm happy we get patches for this 13 year old game, (and after Blizz went to shit I might add). Go play League with this toxic bs. The Loire Valley is pittance compared to this thread. Personally, I am excited to see fresh strats, excited to see fresh games, excited to be able to continue enjoying SC2 after all these years. Thanks to everyone that makes this possible (including the balance team) and fuck the haters.
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"Zerg Cabal"? Seriously? Of course, accusing a specific group of secretly being in a cabal that is running the show has never been a problematic position to hold (ya'll know where that shit comes from right?) but, why? Ashamed to see this crap on TL tbh.
It's a meme from Reddit. Don't take it too seriously.
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I saw Zerg Cabal first on TL, where I've read all of the posts about the patch. Then saw it mentioned in a tournament cast referencing TL, then I saw reddit talk about the Nathanias thing and it just blew up.
To put fuel on the fire. Stats finally returned, the only non-Zerg who could rival Serral and now we have a 50% nerf on his Shield Battery Overcharge and a 19% nerf on his Disruptor AoEs.
Back when the game was more balanced Stats innovated Stasis use on Larvae and Eggs. Well that was nerfed and now it's even nerfed further with the inconsistent attack priority change and units being able to take order while in Stasis.
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On January 30 2023 08:22 Arghmyliver wrote:
This is the whiniest I've seen TL in a long time.
"Zerg Cabal"? Seriously? Of course, accusing a specific group of secretly being in a cabal that is running the show has never been a problematic position to hold (ya'll know where that shit comes from right?) but, why? Ashamed to see this crap on TL tbh.
Apparently Scarlett, Lambo (and Harstem? so Team Shopify, why specifically them?) have somehow (intimidation? bribery? what?) bent every other pro to their will and are plotting to make it easier for Zerg to win (because why wouldn't they, life is only enjoyable when everything is easy, right?) and murder the SC2 scene in the process, (prbly their main source of income, but I don't actually know that so I wouldn't presume to assert it like it was fact).
I'm happy we get patches for this 13 year old game, (and after Blizz went to shit I might add). Go play League with this toxic bs. The Loire Valley is pittance compared to this thread. Personally, I am excited to see fresh strats, excited to see fresh games, excited to be able to continue enjoying SC2 after all these years. Thanks to everyone that makes this possible (including the balance team) and fuck the haters.
After the first period in years where the game was watchable, a patch happens that looks like it might favor zerg, the race that made the game unwatchable for years before. Being surprised or annoyed by the fact that there is whining about this is insane.
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Mexico2170 Posts
On January 30 2023 08:22 Arghmyliver wrote:
This is the whiniest I've seen TL in a long time.
"Zerg Cabal"? Seriously? Of course, accusing a specific group of secretly being in a cabal that is running the show has never been a problematic position to hold (ya'll know where that shit comes from right?) but, why? Ashamed to see this crap on TL tbh.
Apparently Scarlett, Lambo (and Harstem? so Team Shopify, why specifically them?) have somehow (intimidation? bribery? what?) bent every other pro to their will and are plotting to make it easier for Zerg to win (because why wouldn't they, life is only enjoyable when everything is easy, right?) and murder the SC2 scene in the process, (prbly their main source of income, but I don't actually know that so I wouldn't presume to assert it like it was fact).
I'm happy we get patches for this 13 year old game, (and after Blizz went to shit I might add). Go play League with this toxic bs. The Loire Valley is pittance compared to this thread. Personally, I am excited to see fresh strats, excited to see fresh games, excited to be able to continue enjoying SC2 after all these years. Thanks to everyone that makes this possible (including the balance team) and fuck the haters.
*Looks at profile picture* *it's a zerg* How unsurprising.
I don't think people here are saying the Cabal is real, But it's clear the patch is zerg favored, and pro players are biased, specially we've seen some western zergs be VERY biased in the patch. So it's clear that, even subconciously, zerg players pushed for balance changes and buffs that were not really necessary for their base.
Also, it is clear that terran, but specially Protoss players, didn't push as hard for meaningful changes that would help their race. Why does Zerg get unit reworks to make units more usable but Protoss doesn't, for example? Why Protoss doesn't get quality of life changes appart from the archon?
Even the Protoss buffs are highly dissapointing. They buffed upgrade speed, which will just innevitably result in more, and stronger all ins, and nerfed hard the mid and lategame strenght of the army by nerfing carriers and disruptors. Same with terran with the ghost nerf.
Meanwhile units like the hydra, that were doing perfectly fine and have been buffed a lot previously, are buffed even more, making them more micreable and faster, improving their performance against splash damage.
We don't know how the changes were selected, with some pros that are ON the balance council being surprised at some of the changes. We do know players like Scarlett were the ones programing the test mode, and coincidentally that included "unintended" lurker buff that were not (and still are not) in the patch notes.
Meanwhile we have had 0 communication about the patch and the reason why certain changes were made on how they were decided.
All we know is that Zerg, the same race that has won more tournaments this year than Terran and Protoss combined, and the year before, and the year before, and the last 7 world championships, is getting buffed, while terran and Protoss are getting nerfed specially on the lategame, and we get weird changes like the cyclone (which seems it's in the patch notes but not actually in the game) or strong but questionable changes like the upgrade change for Protoss which might do more harm that good and end up being nerfed.
On January 30 2023 21:03 ejozl wrote:
Back when the game was more balanced Stats innovated Stasis use on Larvae and Eggs. Well that was nerfed and now it's even nerfed further with the inconsistent attack priority change and units being able to take order while in Stasis.
Don't forget that the nerf is hidden in "quality of life fixes"
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So it's a week from Katowice and the Cyclone change still isn't in. Plus the Colossus friendly fire thing was broken and then fixed in the balance test mod, but is still broken in the live game.
Regardless of what you think of the changes, having the balance council handle this has been a complete shitshow. Tons of undocumented changes, terrible communication of what changed (no one even knew about the balance test mod until a couple of weeks in, and they didn't even have an external changelog for way too long), and now they can't even deploy the correct version to the live game a week before the biggest tournament of the year.
At least they seemed to have pushed a new version (1.11) of the balance test mod that fixes the Cyclone and Colossus bugs, so presumably a fix to the live game is incoming:
Mod made compatible with the release of 5.0.11
The following bug fixes have been applied:
Removed Follow Acquire Range change (caused issues with not attacking enemies)
Fixed Reaper unable to damage targets at max range when inside a Bunker
Fixed Colossus unable to damage own units
Fixed an issue with Colossus not dealing damage when picked up away from its target
Fixed Lair having sight range of 11 instead of 12
Fixed Cyclone Mag-Field Accelerator upgrade applying the old effects instead of +10 vs all
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My client just patched moments ago (to b#89720). Is this perhaps the bug fix patch, with the cyclone change etc?
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On January 31 2023 00:07 [Phantom] wrote:
and the last 7 world championships You surely meant to say last 8 world championships? 
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pivoting a bit from balance and back to the maps, i'm getting tired of the trend of maps having visually ambiguous or weirdly shaped ramps (or natural base openings). i'm all for maps looking attractive, but when it takes me game after game to figure out how to wall a ramp because the visual design makes no sense it gets old. walling is extremely important for toss and i do not see it as fun or interesting to keep having to re-learn it. either make pylons raise and lower like depots or standardize all natural base ramps, and for gods sake make it clear where the pathable terrain ends
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Mexico2170 Posts
On January 31 2023 05:13 moonsjde wrote:
pivoting a bit from balance and back to the maps, i'm getting tired of the trend of maps having visually ambiguous or weirdly shaped ramps (or natural base openings). i'm all for maps looking attractive, but when it takes me game after game to figure out how to wall a ramp because the visual design makes no sense it gets old. walling is extremely important for toss and i do not see it as fun or interesting to keep having to re-learn it. either make pylons raise and lower like depots or standardize all natural base ramps, and for gods sake make it clear where the pathable terrain ends
Can't agree more. There is one map where if you put the pylon in the "normal spot" it blocks the nexus... In any other map it doesn't, so after I lost 2 games in 3 days because of that I just vetoed because I'm not going to be fighting my muscle memory and giving the occasional free win just because of bad map design.
There is a second map where if you get baneling busted and you need to make more buildings behind the front gates, there is a tree or something on the side where you cannot place a building so you'd assume if you place the gate beside that you'd complete the second wall, but it turns out zerglings can go through that place. So you either need a second gate if the pylon energy field let's you, or two more pylons just to block 1 square that's in a really awkard position and looks as if units shouldn't be able to pass there. And there goes another free win for Zerg.
That and the fact some map makers insist to put an invisible spot for overlord to permanently have vision over your natural entrance and sometimes even your gas until you can get air vision, which the only thing it does is make Protoss more succeptible in what already is their weakest spot.
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After playing a bit I have to say I actually like the Raven change (definitely a buff) but really dislike the Cyclone change.
Cyclones just feel worse. Considering Roaches and Stalkers are so easily mass produced, the extra damage to armor was more important imo.
I don't really mind the Zerg changes tbh but still have the feeling the patch was a clear Zerg net buff. We'll see at Katowice I guess.
I really like the TvP changes though so at least there's that
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EPT
