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On January 26 2023 02:04 InfCereal wrote:Show nested quote +On January 26 2023 01:49 Charoisaur wrote:On January 26 2023 01:46 InfCereal wrote:On January 26 2023 01:42 Charoisaur wrote:On January 25 2023 23:47 InfCereal wrote:On January 25 2023 23:42 Charoisaur wrote:On January 25 2023 23:18 RiSkysc2 wrote:On January 25 2023 22:27 Charoisaur wrote:On January 25 2023 09:16 RiSkysc2 wrote:On January 24 2023 07:49 Charoisaur wrote:
Yeah letting pros handle patches is just a bad idea, they clearly have a conflict of interest regarding balancing the game which results in the race that has the most influential community members getting all the buffs. Shameful Protoss has the most players in the balance discord by far and every change is voted on. Every player from the Dreamhack regionals and GSL is in the balance discord (or invited and declined) and thus protoss has the most representation. So yeah there's no zerg cabal. I mean, can you really with a straight face say Zerg isn't getting preferential treatment by the balance team and that for a long time now? In 2019 there was one super tournament in which Protoss was doing really well and Protoss got immediately nerfed. Zerg has been dominating for 5 years and have never really been nerfed for it. All the nerfs they have received have either been counter-acted by buffs / nerfs to the other races or were extremely inconsequential. And now they are pushing a very Zerg favored patch 2 weeks before IEM Katowice, can you imagine that happening for Terran or Protoss? Honestly, I don't know what's the reason for this, if Zergs have conspired to get favorable balance, if certain decision-makers at Blizzard like Zerg, if they want Serral and Reynor to perform well or if Terrans and Protoss players are just too polite to vocally voice their opinion. However it's so clear that Zerg is getting preferential treatment by the balance team that I honestly think you are just arguing in bad faith if you try to deny this. ![[image loading]](https://miro.medium.com/max/640/1*6ss9wuGIVSnPKOKmCeS3tA.webp) Answer my question: I mean, can you really with a straight face say Zerg isn't getting preferential treatment by the balance team and that for a long time now? I know it's a classic to attack the person instead of the argument when you have no arguments left Zerg isn't getting preferential treatment So you think if Protoss would win 50% of tournaments they wouldn't be getting nerfed? Reynor mentioned this in his stream the other day - to him this patch is more about breathing life back into the game, not about making drastic game altering changes. A Zerg player happy about the patch? I'm so surprised. Won't answer to the mental gymnastics of you trying to argue one race winning 50% of tournaments is fine. We both know you'd be up in arms about it if your race was on the other side. I don't know how you can argue about tournament winners when serral has won 89 of the 201 tournaments he's even participated in. source:  Serral/Results1 person fucks up your entire arguement
To copy a popular post off the reddit
When you remove the top player of each race (Serral, herO, Maru):
Terran wins almost nothing.
Protoss wins absolutely nothing.
Zerg still wins the last 8 world championships (even the 2 that Serral won were off the back of ZvZ).
The idea that "It's just Serral" is completely stupid. How anyone can say that while terran and protoss success is much, much, more dependant on just one player. herO and Maru are bigger outliers than Serral has ever been.
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On January 26 2023 05:52 Sogetsu wrote:Show nested quote +On January 26 2023 05:46 moonsjde wrote:
so, aside from all the boring balance whine from the same 3 people who have arguing on here for 15 years...
is there anything to try out or do differently with toss now in any matchup? new builds or strats? because it seems like mostly the plan is to play exactly the same except our tech is weaker
the only thing i can think of is maybe with ravager morph time being substantially longer there's a bigger window to do soul trains/force field based aggression again, which could be really cool, but haven't had a chance to test it out yet. Better and earlier scout based on Sentries which can be used for some pushes later abusing ForceFields. Since the Ravager takes longer to morph the Force Fields will be better offensive and deffensive wise. Also the speedier Observer to keep as well scouting and denying creep. Maybe better use on Archons to counter Mutas (which I used to play a Zealot Templar Archon build en PvZ super good time ago) Now you need to micro better the Carriers and the Disruptors because of the nerfs. There are changes that can't be analyzed on a vaccum, you need to wait to also see what other races go for and change.
not asking anyone to analyze in a vacuum, i'm interested in people's play experience as the patch is live and presumably streamers have been showing gameplay as well.
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Mexico1901 Posts
On January 26 2023 05:46 moonsjde wrote:
so, aside from all the boring balance whine from the same 3 people who have arguing on here for 15 years...
is there anything to try out or do differently with toss now in any matchup? new builds or strats? because it seems like mostly the plan is to play exactly the same except our tech is weaker
the only thing i can think of is maybe with ravager morph time being substantially longer there's a bigger window to do soul trains/force field based aggression again, which could be really cool, but haven't had a chance to test it out yet.
You do raise a good point. This change doesn't give Protoss any chance for new and cool strategies. Even the stasis guard was nerfed under the guise of Quality of life changes. (Now it has more priority, and you can tell your units to do something after the stasis ends. So if you got all your workers in stasis like a noob, you don't need to wait until the stasis finishes to send them to mine, which is ridiculous).
There's only 1 type of strategy this patch promotes for Protoss: all ins, thanks to the upgrade buffs.
What I've been doing is just all ining everyone with +1 mass zealot with sentries to FF ramps ala early WOL Or +2 mass zealot archon all in. At least in pvz.
After all that's what the balance team wants us to do.
The upgrade buffs literally have no effect unless you're all ining or your opponent is doing a timing push. If you don't attack when you get your upgrades or attack later than 10 seconds after they finish then the "buff" is meaningless as you'd have the upgrade anyway by then in the previous patch, and what remains are just nerfs to the mid/lategame like you say.
With this strategy and the sheer power of my hatred for Zerg i've been able to maintain my pvz winrate, but we'll see how it goes after a while.
Regrettably Protoss can't enjoy a macro game anymore,
So when you zergs are dying to shitty protoss all ins, don't you dare complain. You brought this on yourselves.
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On January 26 2023 06:13 [Phantom] wrote:Show nested quote +On January 26 2023 05:46 moonsjde wrote:
so, aside from all the boring balance whine from the same 3 people who have arguing on here for 15 years...
is there anything to try out or do differently with toss now in any matchup? new builds or strats? because it seems like mostly the plan is to play exactly the same except our tech is weaker
the only thing i can think of is maybe with ravager morph time being substantially longer there's a bigger window to do soul trains/force field based aggression again, which could be really cool, but haven't had a chance to test it out yet. There's only 1 type of strategy this patch promotes for Protoss: all ins, thanks to the upgrade buffs.
Regrettably Protoss can't enjoy a macro game anymore, So when you zergs are dying to shitty protoss all ins, don't you dare complain. You brought this on yourselves.
This kind of meta is something a lot of people don't realise. If protoss is allin-ing every game that doesn't mean the allins are imba, it means that playing lategame is suicide.
Years ago when proxy every game was the meta in TvP it wasn't because they were imba either, it was because no one wanted to play macro.
Inevitably protoss will go 2 base or 3 base allin every game, and zerg will complain these allins are overpowered even if protoss wins one tournament every year.
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On January 26 2023 06:25 Fango wrote:Show nested quote +On January 26 2023 06:13 [Phantom] wrote:On January 26 2023 05:46 moonsjde wrote:
so, aside from all the boring balance whine from the same 3 people who have arguing on here for 15 years...
is there anything to try out or do differently with toss now in any matchup? new builds or strats? because it seems like mostly the plan is to play exactly the same except our tech is weaker
the only thing i can think of is maybe with ravager morph time being substantially longer there's a bigger window to do soul trains/force field based aggression again, which could be really cool, but haven't had a chance to test it out yet. There's only 1 type of strategy this patch promotes for Protoss: all ins, thanks to the upgrade buffs.
Regrettably Protoss can't enjoy a macro game anymore, So when you zergs are dying to shitty protoss all ins, don't you dare complain. You brought this on yourselves. This kind of meta is something a lot of people don't realise. If protoss is allin-ing every game that doesn't mean the allins are imba, it means that playing lategame is suicide. Years ago when proxy every game was the meta in TvP it wasn't because they were imba either, it was because no one wanted to play macro. Inevitably protoss will go 2 base or 3 base allin every game, and zerg will complain these allins are overpowered even if protoss wins one tournament every year.
i simply don't understand why we can't have a protoss ground army that can do work at 4+ bases in pvz. every time they want to buff toss it's "void rays are faster now, carriers are better now" and when they want to nerf us they just nerf air back in the other direction. skytoss is notorious for being anti-fun at all levels, so why is it so often used as the crux of toss balance? this is for years now
this is why for SC3 i want separate air supply. i've been saying it for years and think it would improve every matchup and every race. air should be limited to like 30-50 supply and it should be separate from main supply. delete mass capital ships, mass muta, mass phoenix - all things that are silly, unfun, and either stomp or get stomped by nature, but keep the incentive to build a sensible amount of air by giving it separate supply. it seems obvious to me at this point!
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On January 26 2023 04:38 Glorfindelio wrote:
Man, these forums have really turned into cancer, as they're dominated by like the same 4-5 bad faith posters making the same tired arguments. Pretty sad, considering browsing these forums used to be really enjoyable.
Also, balance has certainly tended to tilt toward Zerg at various points, but the largest factor in their dominance boils down to:
They have the largest pool of remaining S-tier talent and have for YEARS. At various points, Terran lost Innovation/TY and Protoss lost Stats, SoS, Classic (yes he's been back but not the same), Zest, and Trap. Zerg only had to say goodbye to Soo (and recently Rogue). Also, Rogue, Serral, Dark and Reynor are all-time SC2 talents, and have remained titans throughout the duration of their careers, with Rogue/Serral as GOAT contenders. These days, Terran and Protoss have only 1 realistic contender in Maru/Hero.
The era of Zerg dominance started in 2019 when almost all those players were still active. Barely any of the players you mentioned were winning tournaments in the months/ the year before they retired
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Cyclone change still isn't in btw.
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On January 26 2023 07:23 Athenau wrote:
Cyclone change still isn't in btw.
and it wont ever be in.
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On January 26 2023 05:06 ZeroByte13 wrote:
And your argument for why top-4 zerg are so much better than Bunny and Cure is.... because they win more?
They win so much because they're so good, and the proof of them being super good is "because they win so much"?
Is this correct?
What if Bunny is better than Serral, and he's just being held back by balance all these 5 last years?
You'll say "don't be silly, Serral is obviously much better than Bunny".
But give marines +15 hp (breaking the balance) and top-5 terrans (including Bunny) will win most of the tournaments.
And then I'll say it's because they're just better than other players.
How would you prove it's not the case and there's a problem with game balance?
I like this comment, because it highlights how 'impossible' it is for anyone to really claim much regarding the importance of player skill vs balance when it comes to the success / lack of success regarding players and races.
It's fairly reasonable to say that it could be that the top zerg players are actually more talented than the players of other races in an environment where basically no new talent is entering the scene anymore (or that there are more of them at least). It's also reasonable to think that even if this was true, that zerg could still be the race which allows player skill to shine the most / make it the easiest to be competitive on the regular (so maybe the most forgiving race when it comes to errors which could lose a game on the spot, stuff like that).
There isn't any particular proof for any position, it's all just interpretations of the scenario we have and had for the past few years.
I personally think that zerg is the race which allows someone like serral to be as dominant as he is / was. I don't think we'd talk about serral in the same way if he played toss or terran. Does that mean zerg is op? Depends on what you think op signals.
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On January 26 2023 08:08 The_Red_Viper wrote:Show nested quote +On January 26 2023 05:06 ZeroByte13 wrote:
And your argument for why top-4 zerg are so much better than Bunny and Cure is.... because they win more?
They win so much because they're so good, and the proof of them being super good is "because they win so much"?
Is this correct?
What if Bunny is better than Serral, and he's just being held back by balance all these 5 last years?
You'll say "don't be silly, Serral is obviously much better than Bunny".
But give marines +15 hp (breaking the balance) and top-5 terrans (including Bunny) will win most of the tournaments.
And then I'll say it's because they're just better than other players.
How would you prove it's not the case and there's a problem with game balance? I like this comment, because it highlights how 'impossible' it is for anyone to really claim much regarding the importance of player skill vs balance when it comes to the success / lack of success regarding players and races. It's fairly reasonable to say that it could be that the top zerg players are actually more talented than the players of other races in an environment where basically no new talent is entering the scene anymore (or that there are more of them at least). It's also reasonable to think that even if this was true, that zerg could still be the race which allows player skill to shine the most / make it the easiest to be competitive on the regular (so maybe the most forgiving race when it comes to errors which could lose a game on the spot, stuff like that). There isn't any particular proof for any position, it's all just interpretations of the scenario we have and had for the past few years. I personally think that zerg is the race which allows someone like serral to be as dominant as he is / was. I don't think we'd talk about serral in the same way if he played toss or terran. Does that mean zerg is op? Depends on what you think op signals.
your argument should mean zerg is op to any sane person. If zerg has the tools to make you the best player in the world, and the other two races do not, then by default it is the strongest race. strongest ≠ easiest
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On January 26 2023 08:17 CicadaSC wrote:Show nested quote +On January 26 2023 08:08 The_Red_Viper wrote:On January 26 2023 05:06 ZeroByte13 wrote:
And your argument for why top-4 zerg are so much better than Bunny and Cure is.... because they win more?
They win so much because they're so good, and the proof of them being super good is "because they win so much"?
Is this correct?
What if Bunny is better than Serral, and he's just being held back by balance all these 5 last years?
You'll say "don't be silly, Serral is obviously much better than Bunny".
But give marines +15 hp (breaking the balance) and top-5 terrans (including Bunny) will win most of the tournaments.
And then I'll say it's because they're just better than other players.
How would you prove it's not the case and there's a problem with game balance? I like this comment, because it highlights how 'impossible' it is for anyone to really claim much regarding the importance of player skill vs balance when it comes to the success / lack of success regarding players and races. It's fairly reasonable to say that it could be that the top zerg players are actually more talented than the players of other races in an environment where basically no new talent is entering the scene anymore (or that there are more of them at least). It's also reasonable to think that even if this was true, that zerg could still be the race which allows player skill to shine the most / make it the easiest to be competitive on the regular (so maybe the most forgiving race when it comes to errors which could lose a game on the spot, stuff like that). There isn't any particular proof for any position, it's all just interpretations of the scenario we have and had for the past few years. I personally think that zerg is the race which allows someone like serral to be as dominant as he is / was. I don't think we'd talk about serral in the same way if he played toss or terran. Does that mean zerg is op? Depends on what you think op signals. your argument should mean zerg is op to any sane person. If zerg has the tools to make you the best player in the world, and the other two races do not, then by default it is the strongest race. strongest ≠ easiest
Well my position mainly focuses on the idea that i think there would be no way for a terran or toss to be as consistent. I think the other races have an easier time losing even if played on a very high level. Though in that scenario it might still be true that terran or toss played on the highest achievable level by a person would be stronger.
People don't play at 100% at all times, the meta shifts too and potentially forces people into decision spaces which are more vulnerable than others / produce higher variances in outcomes, etc.
I don't think it is particularly clear what people even really mean when they talk about a race being OP.
But yeah, i'd generally agree with you that i'd call zerg op in the sense that it seems to allow strong players to be more consistent than similarly strong players of other races. But i also cannot prove that serral isn't just better than maru for example, whatever 'better' would even mean outside of their particular skills with their race. It seems like an easy conversation, but it really isn't.
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On January 26 2023 06:13 [Phantom] wrote:Show nested quote +On January 26 2023 05:46 moonsjde wrote:
so, aside from all the boring balance whine from the same 3 people who have arguing on here for 15 years...
is there anything to try out or do differently with toss now in any matchup? new builds or strats? because it seems like mostly the plan is to play exactly the same except our tech is weaker
the only thing i can think of is maybe with ravager morph time being substantially longer there's a bigger window to do soul trains/force field based aggression again, which could be really cool, but haven't had a chance to test it out yet. You do raise a good point. This change doesn't give Protoss any chance for new and cool strategies. Even the stasis guard was nerfed under the guise of Quality of life changes. (Now it has more priority, and you can tell your units to do something after the stasis ends. So if you got all your workers in stasis like a noob, you don't need to wait until the stasis finishes to send them to mine, which is ridiculous). There's only 1 type of strategy this patch promotes for Protoss: all ins, thanks to the upgrade buffs.
What I've been doing is just all ining everyone with +1 mass zealot with sentries to FF ramps ala early WOL Or +2 mass zealot archon all in. At least in pvz. After all that's what the balance team wants us to do. The upgrade buffs literally have no effect unless you're all ining or your opponent is doing a timing push. If you don't attack when you get your upgrades or attack later than 10 seconds after they finish then the "buff" is meaningless as you'd have the upgrade anyway by then in the previous patch, and what remains are just nerfs to the mid/lategame like you say. With this strategy and the sheer power of my hatred for Zerg i've been able to maintain my pvz winrate, but we'll see how it goes after a while. Regrettably Protoss can't enjoy a macro game anymore, So when you zergs are dying to shitty protoss all ins, don't you dare complain. You brought this on yourselves.
That... isn't how this change works. The upgrade changes impact each subsequent upgrade as well. So +1 now comes out 7 seconds sooner, +2 comes out 16 seconds sooner (9 + 7), +3 comes out 26.7 seconds sooner (16 + 10.7). So +3 is hitting almost 30 seconds earlier than it did on the previous patch. Not that its a common build, but you could now get to 3/3 over 50 seconds sooner if you're working with a single forge.
I know most of this thread doesn't understand the concept, but also keep in mind that the late game doesn't happen in a vacuum, especially vs Zerg. Have efficient early fights vs Zerg means less drones early + more resources lost. All this is going to add up throughout a game, eventually limiting the resources zerg has to play with.
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On January 26 2023 08:52 Draddition wrote:Show nested quote +On January 26 2023 06:13 [Phantom] wrote:On January 26 2023 05:46 moonsjde wrote:
so, aside from all the boring balance whine from the same 3 people who have arguing on here for 15 years...
is there anything to try out or do differently with toss now in any matchup? new builds or strats? because it seems like mostly the plan is to play exactly the same except our tech is weaker
the only thing i can think of is maybe with ravager morph time being substantially longer there's a bigger window to do soul trains/force field based aggression again, which could be really cool, but haven't had a chance to test it out yet. You do raise a good point. This change doesn't give Protoss any chance for new and cool strategies. Even the stasis guard was nerfed under the guise of Quality of life changes. (Now it has more priority, and you can tell your units to do something after the stasis ends. So if you got all your workers in stasis like a noob, you don't need to wait until the stasis finishes to send them to mine, which is ridiculous). There's only 1 type of strategy this patch promotes for Protoss: all ins, thanks to the upgrade buffs.
What I've been doing is just all ining everyone with +1 mass zealot with sentries to FF ramps ala early WOL Or +2 mass zealot archon all in. At least in pvz. After all that's what the balance team wants us to do. The upgrade buffs literally have no effect unless you're all ining or your opponent is doing a timing push. If you don't attack when you get your upgrades or attack later than 10 seconds after they finish then the "buff" is meaningless as you'd have the upgrade anyway by then in the previous patch, and what remains are just nerfs to the mid/lategame like you say. With this strategy and the sheer power of my hatred for Zerg i've been able to maintain my pvz winrate, but we'll see how it goes after a while. Regrettably Protoss can't enjoy a macro game anymore, So when you zergs are dying to shitty protoss all ins, don't you dare complain. You brought this on yourselves. That... isn't how this change works. The upgrade changes impact each subsequent upgrade as well. So +1 now comes out 7 seconds sooner, +2 comes out 16 seconds sooner (9 + 7), +3 comes out 26.7 seconds sooner (16 + 10.7). So +3 is hitting almost 30 seconds earlier than it did on the previous patch. Not that its a common build, but you could now get to 3/3 over 50 seconds sooner if you're working with a single forge. I know most of this thread doesn't understand the concept, but also keep in mind that the late game doesn't happen in a vacuum, especially vs Zerg. Have efficient early fights vs Zerg means less drones early + more resources lost. All this is going to add up throughout a game, eventually limiting the resources zerg has to play with.
but what "efficient early fights" can protoss have while playing a macro game against a passive zerg? even low level zergs are mechanically proficient against pretty much every build these days. charge, glaives, archon drop, oracle - all of these builds require protoss to find a "gotcha" moment in the zergs defense which is just very uncommon these days when walking onto creep into 8 queens. gateway allins are often defended unscouted. blink can theoretically win games with efficient grinding but it's insanely taxing mechanically and if your tempo slips at any point/you don't know the timings perfectly you are probably dead
i think protoss players want to be active on the map, want to take fights with blink and forcefields, want to gain tempo with gateway skirmishes, etc. that's the more fun way to play! but the margin of error for doing damage is insanely narrow, and if you mess up an attack on creep you don't get a second chance, so people go straight to skytoss for stability. IMO ravagers always deleted the forcefield too easily from the very beginning, but because forcefields had an "abusive/feelsbad" reputation they were afraid to re-tune them into relevance
i get it, people hate splash damage, they hate skytoss, they hate forcefields. but when you take away these tools one by one and don't compensate by making low tech units stronger you end up with a neutered race that needs things like shield battery overcharge to survive while doing anything, and they're nerfing the battery too, so... i don't get it, how do you win if your compositins are never going to be efficient fast enough?
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On January 26 2023 02:43 InfCereal wrote:Show nested quote +On January 26 2023 02:21 Charoisaur wrote:On January 26 2023 02:04 InfCereal wrote:On January 26 2023 01:49 Charoisaur wrote:On January 26 2023 01:46 InfCereal wrote:On January 26 2023 01:42 Charoisaur wrote:On January 25 2023 23:47 InfCereal wrote:On January 25 2023 23:42 Charoisaur wrote:On January 25 2023 23:18 RiSkysc2 wrote:On January 25 2023 22:27 Charoisaur wrote:
[quote]
I mean, can you really with a straight face say Zerg isn't getting preferential treatment by the balance team and that for a long time now?
In 2019 there was one super tournament in which Protoss was doing really well and Protoss got immediately nerfed. Zerg has been dominating for 5 years and have never really been nerfed for it. All the nerfs they have received have either been counter-acted by buffs / nerfs to the other races or were extremely inconsequential.
And now they are pushing a very Zerg favored patch 2 weeks before IEM Katowice, can you imagine that happening for Terran or Protoss?
Honestly, I don't know what's the reason for this, if Zergs have conspired to get favorable balance, if certain decision-makers at Blizzard like Zerg, if they want Serral and Reynor to perform well or if Terrans and Protoss players are just too polite to vocally voice their opinion. However it's so clear that Zerg is getting preferential treatment by the balance team that I honestly think you are just arguing in bad faith if you try to deny this. Answer my question: I mean, can you really with a straight face say Zerg isn't getting preferential treatment by the balance team and that for a long time now? I know it's a classic to attack the person instead of the argument when you have no arguments left Zerg isn't getting preferential treatment So you think if Protoss would win 50% of tournaments they wouldn't be getting nerfed? Reynor mentioned this in his stream the other day - to him this patch is more about breathing life back into the game, not about making drastic game altering changes. A Zerg player happy about the patch? I'm so surprised. Won't answer to the mental gymnastics of you trying to argue one race winning 50% of tournaments is fine. We both know you'd be up in arms about it if your race was on the other side. I don't know how you can argue about tournament winners when serral has won 89 of the 201 tournaments he's even participated in. source: Serral/Results1 person fucks up your entire arguement and Reynor and Dark and Rogue. Weird how when Zerg is dominating Zerg players are just better but it's different when another race dominates No, not like reynor, dark, and rogue. Serral's combined Premier/Major medal count is 66 top 3 finishes. For comparison: Rogue: 30 Dark: 41 Reynor: 33 Maru: 48 Byun: 33 Innovation: 41 herO: 32 neeb: 51 Zest: 39 I don't understand how you people can't just like... go to liquipedia yourselves and see that the game's pretty fucking balanced, and serral's an enormous outlier.
How many of those tournaments are won by Serral when he had no real competition in the WCS/EU scene. I would do the same medal count but starting from late 2019/ early 2020 after Clem and Reynor has arrived.
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On January 26 2023 11:41 tigera6 wrote:Show nested quote +On January 26 2023 02:43 InfCereal wrote:On January 26 2023 02:21 Charoisaur wrote:On January 26 2023 02:04 InfCereal wrote:On January 26 2023 01:49 Charoisaur wrote:On January 26 2023 01:46 InfCereal wrote:On January 26 2023 01:42 Charoisaur wrote:On January 25 2023 23:47 InfCereal wrote:On January 25 2023 23:42 Charoisaur wrote:On January 25 2023 23:18 RiSkysc2 wrote:[quote] Answer my question: I mean, can you really with a straight face say Zerg isn't getting preferential treatment by the balance team and that for a long time now? I know it's a classic to attack the person instead of the argument when you have no arguments left Zerg isn't getting preferential treatment So you think if Protoss would win 50% of tournaments they wouldn't be getting nerfed? Reynor mentioned this in his stream the other day - to him this patch is more about breathing life back into the game, not about making drastic game altering changes. A Zerg player happy about the patch? I'm so surprised. Won't answer to the mental gymnastics of you trying to argue one race winning 50% of tournaments is fine. We both know you'd be up in arms about it if your race was on the other side. I don't know how you can argue about tournament winners when serral has won 89 of the 201 tournaments he's even participated in. source: Serral/Results1 person fucks up your entire arguement and Reynor and Dark and Rogue. Weird how when Zerg is dominating Zerg players are just better but it's different when another race dominates No, not like reynor, dark, and rogue. Serral's combined Premier/Major medal count is 66 top 3 finishes. For comparison: Rogue: 30 Dark: 41 Reynor: 33 Maru: 48 Byun: 33 Innovation: 41 herO: 32 neeb: 51 Zest: 39 I don't understand how you people can't just like... go to liquipedia yourselves and see that the game's pretty fucking balanced, and serral's an enormous outlier. How many of those tournaments are won by Serral when he had no real competition in the WCS/EU scene. I would do the same medal count but starting from late 2019/ early 2020 after Clem and Reynor has arrived.
this might be the funniest misrepresentation of stastics ive ever seen. and sorry i just realized i quoted the wrong message, i meant the guy you were replying to. This suggest Neeb is the best protoss when half his medals are probably from NA region locked tournaments.
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On January 26 2023 10:45 moonsjde wrote:Show nested quote +On January 26 2023 08:52 Draddition wrote:On January 26 2023 06:13 [Phantom] wrote:On January 26 2023 05:46 moonsjde wrote:
so, aside from all the boring balance whine from the same 3 people who have arguing on here for 15 years...
is there anything to try out or do differently with toss now in any matchup? new builds or strats? because it seems like mostly the plan is to play exactly the same except our tech is weaker
the only thing i can think of is maybe with ravager morph time being substantially longer there's a bigger window to do soul trains/force field based aggression again, which could be really cool, but haven't had a chance to test it out yet. You do raise a good point. This change doesn't give Protoss any chance for new and cool strategies. Even the stasis guard was nerfed under the guise of Quality of life changes. (Now it has more priority, and you can tell your units to do something after the stasis ends. So if you got all your workers in stasis like a noob, you don't need to wait until the stasis finishes to send them to mine, which is ridiculous). There's only 1 type of strategy this patch promotes for Protoss: all ins, thanks to the upgrade buffs.
What I've been doing is just all ining everyone with +1 mass zealot with sentries to FF ramps ala early WOL Or +2 mass zealot archon all in. At least in pvz. After all that's what the balance team wants us to do. The upgrade buffs literally have no effect unless you're all ining or your opponent is doing a timing push. If you don't attack when you get your upgrades or attack later than 10 seconds after they finish then the "buff" is meaningless as you'd have the upgrade anyway by then in the previous patch, and what remains are just nerfs to the mid/lategame like you say. With this strategy and the sheer power of my hatred for Zerg i've been able to maintain my pvz winrate, but we'll see how it goes after a while. Regrettably Protoss can't enjoy a macro game anymore, So when you zergs are dying to shitty protoss all ins, don't you dare complain. You brought this on yourselves. That... isn't how this change works. The upgrade changes impact each subsequent upgrade as well. So +1 now comes out 7 seconds sooner, +2 comes out 16 seconds sooner (9 + 7), +3 comes out 26.7 seconds sooner (16 + 10.7). So +3 is hitting almost 30 seconds earlier than it did on the previous patch. Not that its a common build, but you could now get to 3/3 over 50 seconds sooner if you're working with a single forge. I know most of this thread doesn't understand the concept, but also keep in mind that the late game doesn't happen in a vacuum, especially vs Zerg. Have efficient early fights vs Zerg means less drones early + more resources lost. All this is going to add up throughout a game, eventually limiting the resources zerg has to play with. but what "efficient early fights" can protoss have while playing a macro game against a passive zerg? even low level zergs are mechanically proficient against pretty much every build these days. charge, glaives, archon drop, oracle - all of these builds require protoss to find a "gotcha" moment in the zergs defense which is just very uncommon these days when walking onto creep into 8 queens. gateway allins are often defended unscouted. blink can theoretically win games with efficient grinding but it's insanely taxing mechanically and if your tempo slips at any point/you don't know the timings perfectly you are probably dead i think protoss players want to be active on the map, want to take fights with blink and forcefields, want to gain tempo with gateway skirmishes, etc. that's the more fun way to play! but the margin of error for doing damage is insanely narrow, and if you mess up an attack on creep you don't get a second chance, so people go straight to skytoss for stability. IMO ravagers always deleted the forcefield too easily from the very beginning, but because forcefields had an "abusive/feelsbad" reputation they were afraid to re-tune them into relevance i get it, people hate splash damage, they hate skytoss, they hate forcefields. but when you take away these tools one by one and don't compensate by making low tech units stronger you end up with a neutered race that needs things like shield battery overcharge to survive while doing anything, and they're nerfing the battery too, so... i don't get it, how do you win if your compositins are never going to be efficient fast enough?
As a great example of taking efficient fights (early is a vague term, but I'm willing to say this isn't super early), the current ZvP meta of oracles into blink stalkers + zealot runbys. Alongside improved movespeed from sentries and HT to rotate around the map and force fights. It's not easy, but SC2 isn't an easy game. I'm honestly not interested in arguing balance regarding this, as there's just too many disingenuous and deceptive arguments going on here- I'm just saying this is the concept behind the patch; Encouraging fights around the map due to increased mobility and faster upgrades.
As an aside, I'm fully aboard the "remove the ravager" hate train that needs to get started. Sentries could be mildly interesting with the pacing of LotV, and honestly the negation of sentries are the far from the worst flaws of the ravager as far as I'm concerned.
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On January 26 2023 12:55 Draddition wrote:
As an aside, I'm fully aboard the "remove the ravager" hate train that needs to get started. Sentries could be mildly interesting with the pacing of LotV, and honestly the negation of sentries are the far from the worst flaws of the ravager as far as I'm concerned.
I don't necessarily think that the Ravager needs to be changed, but I've always thought that the Ravager should keep the Armoured tag that the Roach has, just because that makes more sense to me.
EDIT:
A "remove the Swarm Host" hate train would be something I'd willingly get behind though...
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On January 26 2023 19:07 MJG wrote:Show nested quote +On January 26 2023 12:55 Draddition wrote:
As an aside, I'm fully aboard the "remove the ravager" hate train that needs to get started. Sentries could be mildly interesting with the pacing of LotV, and honestly the negation of sentries are the far from the worst flaws of the ravager as far as I'm concerned.
I don't necessarily think that the Ravager needs to be changed, but I've always thought that the Ravager should keep the Armoured tag that the Roach has, just because that makes more sense to me. EDIT: A "remove the Swarm Host" hate train would be something I'd willingly get behind though...
Don't want to completely derail patch discussion, but sign me up for the SH removal train. It's mostly irrelevant at this point anyways. Since HotS I've wanted the SH to be a proper T3 class unit for ranged play with zerg, then we got the lurker instead- so I don't even see a pathway to reworking the unit into something interesting.
Regarding the ravager, I mostly hate what its done to ZvZ where the matchup is largely locked into both players making a ball of stuff and staring at it for 10 minutes. Not much in the way of positional play, and hardly any room to tech into more interesting units. I also think without the ravager, shield batteries could be hit even more and certainly shield battery + cannon rushes into robo stuff would have to be removed.
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Fixed an issue where Reapers threw KD8 Charges with the wrong hand.
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Wow
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Is it a surprise we are getting a zerg biased patch again? Harstem, who is clearly part of the zerg cabal, is representing protoss in the balance council lmao, what else do u expect?
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EPT
