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On February 01 2023 19:48 Charoisaur wrote:
Well, you've never seen it because going Ultras against Battle mech is like the stupidest thing you could ever do.
But also no one ever switches to battle mech when Ultras are out either.
Ultras are late game tech, and nobody plays battle mech in the late game in last few years.
My point was - ultras and cyclones almost never met, so Vision_'s point is moot.
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On February 01 2023 19:19 ZeroByte13 wrote:
I'm not sure if I've ever seen Cyclons being a counter vs Ultras.
When you've seen it last time, I wonder?
It's possible in theory, on paper, in vacuum. But in real life this just doesn't work.
Ultras are always supported by lings who hard counter cyclones. Maybe if hellions had a late game upgrade that would allow them to attack on the move... then battle mech would be more viable.
No, we do not want to head down the road of giving more and more units the ability to attack while moving for obvious reasons.
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On February 01 2023 22:08 Creager wrote:
No, we do not want to head down the road of giving more and more units the ability to attack while moving for obvious reasons. I understand, but then battle mech remains unviable in late game.
It's how it was since forever, so maybe it's ok.
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On February 01 2023 22:27 ZeroByte13 wrote:Show nested quote +On February 01 2023 22:08 Creager wrote:
No, we do not want to head down the road of giving more and more units the ability to attack while moving for obvious reasons. I understand, but then battle mech remains unviable in late game. It's how it was since forever, so maybe it's ok.
Well I always thought Battle Mech was meant to be a way to get to a more traditional mech comp without just camping. Battle mech can win in the mid game by being efficient but if you could just battle mech the whole game it wouldnt be that different from bio
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On February 01 2023 22:27 ZeroByte13 wrote:Show nested quote +On February 01 2023 22:08 Creager wrote:
No, we do not want to head down the road of giving more and more units the ability to attack while moving for obvious reasons. I understand, but then battle mech remains unviable in late game. It's how it was since forever, so maybe it's ok.
What I always liked about Mech (mostly during WoL and HotS) was that it provided a completely different approach on how to play the game as Terran, and while the vast majority of people see it as a low-skill low-APM playstyle that promotes passiveness and turtling, which might be uninteresting to most, I've always seen it as a very methodical carefully executed strategical playstyle when you know what you're doing while making the game also more accessible for lower level players.
While I can acknowledge the frustration having to play against mech, it's really a test of patience, endurance and strategical thinking for the opponent and I feel that for a lot of players this isn't necessarily how they want to play the game.
I think most people prefer faster-paced action-packed back-and-forth games, so it's kinda always been a pretty strong contrast to what SC2 is usually about and this is what I've always admired about it. Also it's a little more resembling to how Terran plays in BW and... yeah I like the Siege Tank. A lot. Such a great unit!
When battlemech became a thing with the addition of the Cyclone I at first I thought it was cool to have a more mobile strike force to kill Hatcheries and keep Zerg in check being active on the map, but ultimately I ended up not liking the style as it didn't fit into my personal definition of what mech should be about - deflect whatever the opponent might throw at you, slowly gain positional advantage and then basically just be as cost-efficient as possible and never get caught on the wrong foot. Battlemech just tried to kinda imitate Bio dynamic without being remotely as micro-intensive.
Ultimately I guess the more variety we have in choosing unit compositions, the better, but just giving Hellions attack-while-moving wouldn't even make battlemech viable, as the Hellion itself is just so fragile and scales badly throughout the game that I'm not sure it would make a difference in a straight-up fight, which would inevitably happen at some point.
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So what kind of Zerg army will you play (against mech with a dozen of mobile cyclone to constantly dps with a long range ?)
- glings bane mutas ?
- glings bane hydra ?
- roach hydras ?
- ultras + ..... ???
- broodlords + ... ?
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On February 02 2023 05:01 Vision_ wrote:
So what kind of Zerg army will you play (against mech with a dozen of mobile cyclone to constantly dps with a long range ?)
- glings bane mutas ?
- glings bane hydra ?
- roach hydras ?
- ultras + ..... ???
- broodlords + ... ?
Ling Bane Ravager
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On February 02 2023 05:02 Charoisaur wrote:Show nested quote +On February 02 2023 05:01 Vision_ wrote:
So what kind of Zerg army will you play (against mech with a dozen of mobile cyclone to constantly dps with a long range ?)
- glings bane mutas ?
- glings bane hydra ?
- roach hydras ?
- ultras + ..... ???
- broodlords + ... ? Ling Bane Ravager
Against hellbat + cyclones + tank... I won t bet on your tactics
I feel Hydralisks too much expensive to be considered as a good tier unit, and now cyclone get +50% damage against them... If the only unit able to catch cyclones are glings, i hope they got a training recently because they will have to run very very fast...
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On February 02 2023 05:12 Vision_ wrote:
Against hellbat + cyclones + tank... I won t bet on your tactics Why do you think almost nobody uses cyclons past early and early mid game?
Ravager / ling / bane crush it. Lings easily catch up on cyclons and surrounds them, and cyclons are made of paper.
As soon as they're surrounded they're as good as dead. And they cost quite a bit and require tech-labs, so not easy to replace.
Again, when it was last time you've seen tanks / cyclons / hellbats vs Zerg on high level?
Maybe I'm missing some cool games but I don't remember seeing anything like this in years.
It reminds me of that one time when a guy was arguing a lot about SC2 balance, and how SC1 balance is so much better.
Then he said that obviosly the main counter to ultras in SC2 are siege tanks, not ghosts / liberators.
I asked him if he watched (or played above platinum) any SC2 in last few years and he said "well, no, but..." 
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Heromarine was playing tank - hellion - cyclone in his games yesterday and ravager - ling - bane absolutely does not crush it.
Battlemech hasn't proven to be viable, or even good yet, but the preponderance of evidence suggests that it's _better_ than it was, and if Zergs find a way to shut it down, it's not going to be by massing ravagers.
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On February 02 2023 08:01 Athenau wrote:
Heromarine was playing tank - hellion - cyclone in his games yesterday and ravager - ling - bane absolutely does not crush it.
Battlemech hasn't proven to be viable, or even good yet, but the preponderance of evidence suggests that it's _better_ than it was, and if Zergs find a way to shut it down, it's not going to be by massing ravagers.
One game isn't exactly a good sample size. Ling Bane Ravager has certainly crushed Battlemech in pro games pre-patch. We'll need to see more games to determine if that is still a viable composition.
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I guess we'll see it in a couple of weeks, whether battle mech is viable on pro level with high stakes or not.
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Mexico2170 Posts
I feel the balance council might have miscalculated. Zerg does best when a patch is figured out,. Making a patch just before Katowice has thet before Katowice give the other races their best chance of surprising zergs with new strategies and beating them. Of course that will still leave the rest of the year in missery for the other races but I do believe even if it's a Zerg favored patch there is a chance another race wins it
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Protoss also need some time to fix walling and stuff like this for the new maps. In all instances, a patch & new map pool just before the biggest tournament which is meant to be the conclusion for the year, is a shitty idea. But I'm sure this isn't actually the balance commity deciding this, it's probably ESL deciding this, wanting more hype for their tournament.
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What i would say last days about cyclones, it is about their support role with hellions (due to the bonus damage against light armor). Now Terran has two mobile mech units which can maybe disturb the play style of Zerg, it s balance effect inside the terran army (symetry with tanks, thors and vikings which have bonus against heavy armor). So Hellions and cyclones can be pair in the middle part of the game like a form of pressure (idk).
Could raven buff buildtime be a problem with auto turrets (against Protoss) ? I just saw HM smurf with an easy harassing play style.
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Or maybe Cyclone might be effective enough now to support Banshee - Mech style, Banshee with speed can fight everything from Zerg other than the spellcaster and Mutalisk, Cyclone with MagField and cheaper Raven should be able to help with that.
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Bot edit.
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Bot edit.
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Changes are nice and all but can we open up the conversation about the carrier once more please ? I made an angry rant post somewhere in this thread earlier so I will try and refrain from repeating myself... Toss can still go straight to Carrier
in ZvP, turtle behind cannons and batteries, slowly take more bases and then a-move across the map once they have amassed enough stuff. "Unfair" does not even begin to describe to extremely imbalanced this strat is below a certain level (high masters / gm I guess). Have not noticed the interceptor buff making much of a change in my games against Carriers
since the patch hit.
Does that need to be in the game so people with less than 100 apm can also win games ?
I am done playing against this nonsense, really kills my passion for sc2.
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On February 12 2023 17:44 TequilaMockingbird wrote:
Changes are nice and all but can we open up the conversation about the carrier once more please ? I made an angry rant post somewhere in this thread earlier so I will try and refrain from repeating myself... Toss can still go straight to Carrier
in ZvP, turtle behind cannons and batteries, slowly take more bases and then a-move across the map once they have amassed enough stuff. "Unfair" does not even begin to describe to extremely imbalanced this strat is below a certain level (high masters / gm I guess). Have not noticed the interceptor buff making much of a change in my games against Carriers
since the patch hit.
Does that need to be in the game so people with less than 100 apm can also win games ?
I am done playing against this nonsense, really kills my passion for sc2.
They also completely destroy teamgames.
Should have just removed the unit in HotS when the idea was originally floated.
On the bright side - Stormgate devs don't want generically powerful air units like carriers, so there's hope there 
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