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Turbovolver
Australia2393 Posts
On January 24 2023 06:44 QOGQOG wrote: It's still buffs and reworks to Zerg, nerfs and reworks to everyone else. This is just factually untrue. Why do you people post things like this? | ||
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Athenau
569 Posts
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JJH777
United States4400 Posts
On January 24 2023 10:06 Turbovolver wrote: This is just factually untrue. Why do you people post things like this? How is that not true? Very few non Zerg units got truly buffed and the buffs were mostly qol changes aka reworks. Did a single T/P unit actually get buffed in a way that will make them potentially win a fight they would have lost pre patch? Zerg got the ultra/hydra buffs which will absolutely change the outcome of engagements that previously they would have lost. T/P did not get any changes that will swing engagements their way. In fact, they got the exact opposite. | ||
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Turbovolver
Australia2393 Posts
On January 24 2023 10:17 JJH777 wrote: How is that not true? Very few non Zerg units got truly buffed and the buffs were mostly qol changes aka reworks. Did a single T/P unit actually get buffed in a way that will make them potentially win a fight they would have lost pre patch? Zerg got the ultra/hydra buffs which will absolutely change the outcome of engagements that previously they would have lost. T/P did not get any changes that will swing engagements their way. In fact, they got the exact opposite. No no no, don't go shifting the goalposts and talking about who wins what engagements. I'm not interested in getting into the weeds again about who the patch favours overall. There was a severe lack of good-faith posting in the previous thread and this one looks to be no different. What I'm saying is that it is factually untrue to say that Protoss and Terran received no buffs. Terran had more units buffed than nerfed (3 buffs, 2 reworks, 2 nerfs). Stop lying. | ||
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Beelzebub1
1004 Posts
The Terran changes are very extensive and I would have to watch alot of TvEverything to come to a conclusion on that, the Ghost is a central late game unit in all the match ups so any changes to that are big, AND combining that with the Raven rework is just crazy to me, very ambitious for a single patch. Any buff to the Viking and Liberator is good I guess? I'm a Zerg player, and some of these changes just really don't line up with what they are saying. The creep changes seem effectively meaningless, less creep spread in the beginning? I just don't see the logic there, creep should either be made to cost more energy or (imo) spread slower and recede faster. Ultralisks kind of sucked so they changes feel okay but the Hydralisk change is just really throwing me for a loop. This feels like a pretty significant set of buffs for a unit that seems to be in a relatively healthy place in the meta, Ling/Band/Hydra still seems viable in this current meta so I'm like, is it just being buffed because it's not great at retreating? Then buff the speed a bit, why do they have to be able to kite? That makes them alot stronger overall, plus Lurkers while expensive are just an insane power house of a unit that dominates the ground in all matches, ZvZ can easily devolve into Lurker vs. Lurker stalemates. Viper change is..yea I guess, better then nothing everyone can see that in the hands of the top Zerg's Vipers are insanely cost efficient so any little thing to tone down their late game power seems appropriate. Infestors are way slept on in this current meta imo Microbial Shroud is outrageously strong. All in all it's good to still see the game getting patches but the balance council needs to be quick to react to any unforeseen consequences of this patch, if Zerg looks too strong after 2 tournaments it's time for a band aid patch, not a, "wait 6 months and release a patch" kind of patch. | ||
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Athenau
569 Posts
On January 24 2023 10:28 Beelzebub1 wrote: All in all it's good to still see the game getting patches but the balance council needs to be quick to react to any unforeseen consequences of this patch, if Zerg looks too strong after 2 tournaments it's time for a band aid patch, not a, "wait 6 months and release a patch" kind of patch. If there were any doubts about Zerg being too strong, maybe they shouldn't haven't pushed it out before the biggest tournament of the year? Nah, that would be silly! | ||
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QOGQOG
834 Posts
On January 24 2023 10:26 Turbovolver wrote: No no no, don't go shifting the goalposts and talking about who wins what engagements. I'm not interested in getting into the weeds again about who the patch favours overall. There was a severe lack of good-faith posting in the previous thread and this one looks to be no different. What I'm saying that it is factually untrue to say that Protoss and Terran received no buffs. Terran had more units buffed than nerfed (3 buffs, 2 reworks, 2 nerfs). Stop lying. Then stop being deliberately obtuse. All buffs are not made equal, just as all nerfs are not made equal. Counting them is not a good way to evaluate what impact the patch will have. The "nerfs" that Zerg got are inconsequential. Meaningless creep tweaks and some tiny delays added to a couple of units. I won't say that these changes will make literally no difference, but it's close. Meanwhile Hydras, Ultras, and Brood Lords (along with, for some reason, buildings) got buffs, even though all of them are used on a regular basis. Meanwhile, both Protoss (with Carriers and Disruptors) and Terran (with Ghosts) had the core units for their lategame nerfed significantly. What have they gotten in return? Protoss: Other than a more vulnerable early game, uh... movespeed buffs to spellcasters that either aren't worth using (Sentry) or are in Warp Prisms/on defense anyway making move speed largely irrelevant (High Templars). The only changes that are genuinely good for Protoss are (partially) reverting previous, unjustified nerfs to things like upgrade times and observer speed. It's like punching someone in the face, then punching them less hard, and expecting them to be grateful. What's Terran gotten? Weaker vision, weaker spellcasters, but a weird attempt to push towards Air Terran? While nerfing the Raven? What? As I've said before, I don't think any individual change is terrible. But all of them together serve to make the game even more Zerg favored, because Zerg is getting no meaningful nerfs while the others are. On January 24 2023 11:50 Athenau wrote: If there were any doubts about Zerg being too strong, maybe they shouldn't haven't pushed it out before the biggest tournament of the year? Nah, that would be silly! Luckily, we've established that Zergs dominating everything for 5+ years is due to them just Being Better. | ||
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Cyro
United Kingdom20285 Posts
Lurker's Unburrow random starting delay was changed from [0, 0.5] to [0, 0]. This means Lurkers will be able to unburrow and move away up to half a second faster Was this reverted? | ||
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Balnazza
Germany1140 Posts
On January 24 2023 11:54 QOGQOG wrote: Luckily, we've established that Zergs dominating everything for 5+ years is due to them just Being Better. Yeah, Zerg is just OP. That's why Solar, DRG, Ragnarok and Lambo constantly win those big titles... | ||
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tigera6
3353 Posts
On January 24 2023 12:11 Balnazza wrote: Yeah, Zerg is just OP. That's why Solar, DRG, Ragnarok and Lambo constantly win those big titles... And how many big title has Bunny, Byun, Heromarine won? | ||
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JJH777
United States4400 Posts
On January 24 2023 12:11 Balnazza wrote: Yeah, Zerg is just OP. That's why Solar, DRG, Ragnarok and Lambo constantly win those big titles... They do a hell of a lot better than their equal ranked T/P equivalents. To me the most damning evidence that Z has been OP since 2019 is that if you make a list of like the top 8 Zerg based on results from 2019 forward and you make an equivalent list for either T/P and you compare the equal ranking Z/T/P player each Z has had better results down the whole list. That's insane and basically impossible in a balanced game state. | ||
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__Coin_Ciden_Ce__
11 Posts
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QOGQOG
834 Posts
On January 24 2023 12:11 Balnazza wrote: Yeah, Zerg is just OP. That's why Solar, DRG, Ragnarok and Lambo constantly win those big titles... So in order for Zerg to be OP every Zerg has to "constantly win those big titles"? What? Edit: Let's pretend this is meant in good faith for a moment. Just in the last year, Solar won his first GSL (Super Tournament, admittedly, but still), RagnaroK made his first GSL finals, and DRG had an all-around fantastic year, becoming a mainstay of the GSL bracket. Lambo got a top 4 in HSC and DH EU. If you go back a bit further, Elazer got a 2nd place at GSL vs. The World and Scarlett won an IEM. So yes... even Zergs other than Serral, Rogue, Reynor, and Dark have been doing very well for themselves if you exclude the big four for some reason. | ||
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Vision_
861 Posts
If Zerg constantly wins big tournaments, it s only because of this awareness advantage (despite their units have been designed specifictly in consequence ) | ||
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Gescom
Canada3370 Posts
Have to side with Turbovolver here. Why make bad faith arguments?! Creep nerf alongside observer buff and raven changes are massive... they just may not play out immediately. Balance always takes time. | ||
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Vision_
861 Posts
On January 24 2023 13:56 Gescom wrote: LOL at anyone describing creep changes as inconsequential. Everyone knows how important creep spread. And it effects every matchup, every game. Carrier changes were only gonna affect 1 in 7 (pulling a number out of my butt) games anyhow. The creep changes are massive. Have to side with Turbovolver here. Why make bad faith arguments?! Creep nerf alongside observer buff and raven changes are massive... they just may not play out immediately. Balance always takes time. Balance always take time.... Yeah you mean 1 month and a half ? I have patience, but i would have trusted this team balance if they took more time to implement this patch. I like some changes : raven (TvT especially), ultra (even if it s only a buff), battery shield (even if it s only a nerf), and i promote every work done to prevent air decisive fights for the game (attempt to tweak carriers). I also think ghost nerf is fine, even if i m not confident on how Terrans can handle late game now. | ||
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SHODAN
United Kingdom1071 Posts
On January 24 2023 12:55 Vision_ wrote: A daring and ballsy patch would completely remove vision from tumors and tweak overlord and overseer to fill scouting for half of their role (then help by queen tumors). I actually really like the idea that creep tumors provide zero vision by default, but have the ability to grant vision when needed. imagine each of the tumors have one big eye hidden inside them, like a dormant overseer. by default, their eyes would be closed, so to speak... but by spending some small energy, perhaps -- or better yet, the creep tumor is destroyed after this ability is used once -- you can selectively open the eye of a creep tumor which grants vision for a brief time. | ||
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Athenau
569 Posts
On January 24 2023 13:56 Gescom wrote: LOL at anyone describing creep changes as inconsequential. Everyone knows how important creep spread. And it effects every matchup, every game. Carrier changes were only gonna affect 1 in 7 (pulling a number out of my butt) games anyhow. The creep changes are massive. Have to side with Turbovolver here. Why make bad faith arguments?! Creep nerf alongside observer buff and raven changes are massive... they just may not play out immediately. Balance always takes time. When the PTR dropped Heromarine went through replays from Solar and Serral demonstrating that even they don't spread creep on anywhere near the old cooldown. In an interview with Ragnarok he said he didn't feel the cooldown nerf at all, though he did notice the vision nerf. And in all the patch games over the last few weeks, creep spread has looked completely unchanged. Even the patch notes call the change "slight": Developer Comment: Clarifies where the vision provided reaches for the Zerg, as the sight range now matches the creep spread created by the tumor. Slightly reduces the amount of Creep Spread in the early game from the Zerg player, especially in situations with multiple Creep Tumors in a small area, or builds without units such as Hellions to delay the Creep. But hey, feel free to avoid that inconvenient evidence. | ||
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Vision_
861 Posts
On January 24 2023 14:05 SHODAN wrote: I actually really like the idea that creep tumors provide zero vision by default, but have the ability to grant vision when needed. imagine each of the tumors have one big eye hidden inside them, like a dormant overseer. by default, their eyes would be closed, so to speak... but by spending some small energy, perhaps -- or better yet, the creep tumor is destroyed after this ability is used once -- you can selectively open the eye of a creep tumor which grants vision for a brief time. The idea of granting vision for tumors is so cool.... Like a race spell, love it | ||
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Balnazza
Germany1140 Posts
On January 24 2023 12:29 QOGQOG wrote: So in order for Zerg to be OP every Zerg has to "constantly win those big titles"? What? Edit: Let's pretend this is meant in good faith for a moment. Just in the last year, Solar won his first GSL (Super Tournament, admittedly, but still), RagnaroK made his first GSL finals, and DRG had an all-around fantastic year, becoming a mainstay of the GSL bracket. Lambo got a top 4 in HSC and DH EU. If you go back a bit further, Elazer got a 2nd place at GSL vs. The World and Scarlett won an IEM. So yes... even Zergs other than Serral, Rogue, Reynor, and Dark have been doing very well for themselves if you exclude the big four for some reason. But you can make the same argument for each race? If you look at the results of 2022, Zerg really hasn't stood out except for the big four (well, three now of course). Every premier event this year except for GSL ST2 (Solar) was won by a player you would expect to win something big: Serral, Dark, Reynor, Rogue, Maru, Clem, herO and Zest. Those players also got a lot of the Runner-Up places. Sure, RagnaroK getting a 2nd place was unexpected, but so was Astrea, Creator, Bunny or maybe even Cure. Lets just face it: The game has gotten a lot smaller. And the top is just a very slim group of 2-3 players for each race that constitute as "if none of them wins a tournament, it is a huge surprise". If Zerg truely was OP on a base-level, you would see a lot more breakthrough performances from mediocre (on a global scale ofc) Zergs. But you don't get that. So yes, even if it hurts people: Maybe Serral, Reynor and Dark are just that tiny bit better. It surely also helps that herO had a military break and Maru seems to always fall off when he leaves Korea... | ||
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