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On January 24 2023 14:10 Balnazza wrote:Show nested quote +On January 24 2023 12:29 QOGQOG wrote:On January 24 2023 12:11 Balnazza wrote:On January 24 2023 11:54 QOGQOG wrote:
Luckily, we've established that Zergs dominating everything for 5+ years is due to them just Being Better. Yeah, Zerg is just OP. That's why Solar, DRG, Ragnarok and Lambo constantly win those big titles... So in order for Zerg to be OP every Zerg has to "constantly win those big titles"? What? Edit: Let's pretend this is meant in good faith for a moment. Just in the last year, Solar won his first GSL (Super Tournament, admittedly, but still), RagnaroK made his first GSL finals, and DRG had an all-around fantastic year, becoming a mainstay of the GSL bracket. Lambo got a top 4 in HSC and DH EU. If you go back a bit further, Elazer got a 2nd place at GSL vs. The World and Scarlett won an IEM. So yes... even Zergs other than Serral, Rogue, Reynor, and Dark have been doing very well for themselves if you exclude the big four for some reason. But you can make the same argument for each race? If you look at the results of 2022, Zerg really hasn't stood out except for the big four (well, three now of course). Every premier event this year except for GSL ST2 (Solar) was won by a player you would expect to win something big: Serral, Dark, Reynor, Rogue, Maru, Clem, herO and Zest. Those players also got a lot of the Runner-Up places. Sure, RagnaroK getting a 2nd place was unexpected, but so was Astrea, Creator, Bunny or maybe even Cure. Lets just face it: The game has gotten a lot smaller. And the top is just a very slim group of 2-3 players for each race that constitute as "if none of them wins a tournament, it is a huge surprise". If Zerg truely was OP on a base-level, you would see a lot more breakthrough performances from mediocre (on a global scale ofc) Zergs. But you don't get that. So yes, even if it hurts people: Maybe Serral, Reynor and Dark are just that tiny bit better. It surely also helps that herO had a military break and Maru seems to always fall off when he leaves Korea...
5 different Zergs have won half of the premier tournaments in 2022.
Edit: Solar, Lambo, DRG, and Ragnarok didn't win any tournaments in 2019, when Zerg was widely acknowledged to be broken. So by your metric, 2019 Zerg was A-ok.
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On January 24 2023 14:09 Vision_ wrote:Show nested quote +On January 24 2023 14:05 SHODAN wrote:On January 24 2023 12:55 Vision_ wrote:
A daring and ballsy patch would completely remove vision from tumors and tweak overlord and overseer to fill scouting for half of their role (then help by queen tumors). I actually really like the idea that creep tumors provide zero vision by default, but have the ability to grant vision when needed. imagine each of the tumors have one big eye hidden inside them, like a dormant overseer. by default, their eyes would be closed, so to speak... but by spending some small energy, perhaps -- or better yet, the creep tumor is destroyed after this ability is used once -- you can selectively open the eye of a creep tumor which grants vision for a brief time. The idea of granting vision for tumors is so cool.... Like a race spell, love it
username checks out 
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Although i am still concerned about zergs overall power level on this patch (especially in the late game.) I am really enjoying the builds that speed banshees enable in tvz and the large meta shifts going on in tvt. the game at least feels fresh, especially with new maps to boot. Im a little more optimistic after playing on the patch, but I am still worried that at the pro level this is a fairly zerg favored patch.
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On January 24 2023 14:10 Balnazza wrote:
If Zerg truely was OP on a base-level, you would see a lot more breakthrough performances from mediocre (on a global scale ofc) Zergs. But you don't get that.
So yes, even if it hurts people: Maybe Serral, Reynor and Dark are just that tiny bit better.
If ZvZ didn't exist and I argued "Playing Zerg = Free Win Always for Everyone," this argument would make sense. Unfortunately, I'm not arguing either of those things.
But I'm not going to have a debate about whether or not it's coincidental that of the five best players of the last several years, four of them (you left out Rogue) are Zerg. If you believe that the tournament results don't indicate anything about balance, but do 100% indicate who the best players are, well, I can't force you to make that make sense.
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On January 24 2023 14:01 Vision_ wrote:Show nested quote +On January 24 2023 13:56 Gescom wrote:
LOL at anyone describing creep changes as inconsequential. Everyone knows how important creep spread. And it effects every matchup, every game. Carrier changes were only gonna affect 1 in 7 (pulling a number out of my butt) games anyhow. The creep changes are massive.
Have to side with Turbovolver here. Why make bad faith arguments?!
Creep nerf alongside observer buff and raven changes are massive... they just may not play out immediately. Balance always takes time.
Balance always take time.... Yeah you mean 1 month and a half ?
Sorry I meant players adopting to the balance on live server. I suspect we'll all laugh at this moment in 6 months! ;}
Hehe. Wishful thinking maybe, but surely people are saving some neat banshee or sentry openings to razzle-dazzle with.
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On January 24 2023 13:56 Gescom wrote:
LOL at anyone describing creep changes as inconsequential. Everyone knows how important creep spread. And it effects every matchup, every game. Carrier changes were only gonna affect 1 in 7 (pulling a number out of my butt) games anyhow. The creep changes are massive.
Have to side with Turbovolver here. Why make bad faith arguments?!
Creep nerf alongside observer buff and raven changes are massive... they just may not play out immediately. Balance always takes time.
The creep change makes barely a difference because even Pros weren't so much on top of their creep spread for the cooldown to matter. Ragnarok himself said he couldn't notice the nerf at all while playing
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On January 24 2023 14:21 Athenau wrote:
5 different Zergs have won half of the premier tournaments in 2022.
5 different Zergs have won not half but even more - 8 out of 12 major global tournaments this season (i.e. after Katowice 2022).
GSLs, DHM Finals (not regionals) and the smaller tournaments that had all best players from all regions - HSC, TSL, KoB.
It's on Liquipedia main page, 2022 Korea and 2022 Global.
If Zerg wins Katowice (and let's be honest, how many of you would bet on T or P winning it?) it will be 9/13 or 70%.
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I Hope that people who Hope for New openings with sentry with a slight movespeed buff and a training Time buff are joking. I fail to sée how 4 seconds of training Time allow anything than an 4 second earlier scout for the P. This patch does not break thé game for us mortal, but its still a shame considering state of pro play
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Releasing a patch just before the finals of a year-long tournament is a disgrace. Katowice is no longer a Premier tournament, it's merely an Asterisk tournament.
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Yeah, whatever anyone might think about this patch, IMHO there's simply too many changes that even probably need to be QA'd again first to have it pushed out with Katowice right around the corner... This is super unprofessional and screams 'IDGAF' on Blizzard's part, which is very disappointing... again.
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Are we all just going to ignore Spirit winning the "first" tournament after the patch went live?
Yes? Okay, just checking. Let me know when something fits everyone's narrative.
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On January 24 2023 20:29 InfCereal wrote:
Are we all just going to ignore Spirit winning the "first" tournament after the patch went live?
Yes? Okay, just checking. Let me know when something fits everyone's narrative.
Imagine saying the game is balanced based on the results of 1 ESL cup.
We'll see at IEM Katowice, wanna bet the winner will be Zerg?
I'd bet 50$ on it, are you in?
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On January 24 2023 20:41 Charoisaur wrote:Show nested quote +On January 24 2023 20:29 InfCereal wrote:
Are we all just going to ignore Spirit winning the "first" tournament after the patch went live?
Yes? Okay, just checking. Let me know when something fits everyone's narrative. Imagine saying the game is balanced based on the results of 1 ESL cup. We'll see at IEM Katowice, wanna bet the winner will be Zerg? I'd bet 50$ on it, are you in?
Imagine not seeing that 2023 is the year of Piotr. Unbelievable.
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On January 24 2023 20:29 InfCereal wrote:
Are we all just going to ignore Spirit winning the "first" tournament after the patch went live?
Yes? Okay, just checking. Let me know when something fits everyone's narrative.
My narrative is that releasing any balance patch right before the finals of a year-long tournament is a ridiculous decision. The specific content of the balance patch is irrelevant.
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On January 24 2023 20:29 InfCereal wrote:
Are we all just going to ignore Spirit winning the "first" tournament after the patch went live?
Yes? Okay, just checking. Let me know when something fits everyone's narrative.
lol, the patch went live 2-3 weeks ago already, and Spirit beating Reynor and HM, good for him. Where is Serral, herO, Dark, Maru, Clem?
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On January 24 2023 21:06 MJG wrote:Show nested quote +On January 24 2023 20:29 InfCereal wrote:
Are we all just going to ignore Spirit winning the "first" tournament after the patch went live?
Yes? Okay, just checking. Let me know when something fits everyone's narrative. My narrative is that releasing any balance patch right before the finals of a year-long tournament is a ridiculous decision. The specific content of the balance patch is irrelevant.
It's not really released just before katowice. It's been in testing for 4 weeks, and it's been played in tournaments the entire time.
It's hardly a surprise to anyone.
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If Zerg wins Katowice 2023, it will be a 9th Zerg world champion in a row, if we count major IEMs and Blizzcon Finals.
And these tournaments grant about the same amount of money to the champion as all other major tourneys of the year combined. 150k at Katowice vs 176k for all other 12 global tournaments of 2022.
Blizzcon 2017 - Rogue
Blizzcon 2018 - Serral
Blizzcon 2019 - Dark
Katowice 2018 - Rogue
Katowice 2019 - soO
Katowice 2020 - Rogue
Katowice 2021 - Reynor
Katowice 2022 - Serral
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On January 24 2023 21:28 InfCereal wrote:Show nested quote +On January 24 2023 21:06 MJG wrote:On January 24 2023 20:29 InfCereal wrote:
Are we all just going to ignore Spirit winning the "first" tournament after the patch went live?
Yes? Okay, just checking. Let me know when something fits everyone's narrative. My narrative is that releasing any balance patch right before the finals of a year-long tournament is a ridiculous decision. The specific content of the balance patch is irrelevant. It's not really released just before katowice. It's been in testing for 4 weeks, and it's been played in tournaments the entire time. It's hardly a surprise to anyone.
In the context of a year-long series of tournaments, four weeks isn't a very long period of time. Notwithstanding the fact that the balance patch has been iterated multiple times during that testing period, and the fact that the community is nowhere near a consensus on whether or not the changes are actually good for the health of the game. This is why holding back the patch until after Katowice, whilst continuing to monitor the impact of the changes in minor tournaments like the ESL Weekly Cups, would've been a much better decision.
Releasing the patch now reduces Katowice to the status of a balance-test tournament, because people will inevitably use the results of the tournament to validate their views on the balance patch. This is a great shame because Katowice should instead be a culmination and celebration of a year-long series of regional qualifiers and tournaments.
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On January 24 2023 12:11 Balnazza wrote:Show nested quote +On January 24 2023 11:54 QOGQOG wrote:
Luckily, we've established that Zergs dominating everything for 5+ years is due to them just Being Better. Yeah, Zerg is just OP. That's why Solar, DRG, Ragnarok and Lambo constantly win those big titles...
Please explain your vision of "Zerg Overpoweredness" that, if it happened, would allow Solar, DRG, Ragnarok and Lambo to take tournaments from Rogue, Serral, Dark and Reynor.
On January 24 2023 14:10 Balnazza wrote:Show nested quote +On January 24 2023 12:29 QOGQOG wrote:On January 24 2023 12:11 Balnazza wrote:On January 24 2023 11:54 QOGQOG wrote:
Luckily, we've established that Zergs dominating everything for 5+ years is due to them just Being Better. Yeah, Zerg is just OP. That's why Solar, DRG, Ragnarok and Lambo constantly win those big titles... So in order for Zerg to be OP every Zerg has to "constantly win those big titles"? What? Edit: Let's pretend this is meant in good faith for a moment. Just in the last year, Solar won his first GSL (Super Tournament, admittedly, but still), RagnaroK made his first GSL finals, and DRG had an all-around fantastic year, becoming a mainstay of the GSL bracket. Lambo got a top 4 in HSC and DH EU. If you go back a bit further, Elazer got a 2nd place at GSL vs. The World and Scarlett won an IEM. So yes... even Zergs other than Serral, Rogue, Reynor, and Dark have been doing very well for themselves if you exclude the big four for some reason. But you can make the same argument for each race? If you look at the results of 2022, Zerg really hasn't stood out except for the big four (well, three now of course). Every premier event this year except for GSL ST2 (Solar) was won by a player you would expect to win something big: Serral, Dark, Reynor, Rogue, Maru, Clem, herO and Zest. Those players also got a lot of the Runner-Up places. Sure, RagnaroK getting a 2nd place was unexpected, but so was Astrea, Creator, Bunny or maybe even Cure. Lets just face it: The game has gotten a lot smaller. And the top is just a very slim group of 2-3 players for each race that constitute as "if none of them wins a tournament, it is a huge surprise". If Zerg truely was OP on a base-level, you would see a lot more breakthrough performances from mediocre (on a global scale ofc) Zergs. But you don't get that. So yes, even if it hurts people: Maybe Serral, Reynor and Dark are just that tiny bit better. It surely also helps that herO had a military break and Maru seems to always fall off when he leaves Korea...
Wait, if a Zerg wins a lot of tournaments, like Rogue, Serral, Dark or Reynor do, they are "just better" and therefore Exceptional.
And if a Zerg wins only 1 tournament, like Solar did, then that's too small a number to count and is just an aberration, and therefore also Exceptional.
And if you exclude all the Zerg who win many or few tournaments for being Exceptional, no Zerg has ever won a tournament, and therefore Zerg is not broken.
Am I understanding your argument correctly?
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I am very surprised that this happened now instead of in 3 weeks, after this year's big finish.
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EPT
