Fait Accompli: Rogue Wins Fourth Code S Championship
by Mizenhauer
Rogue has done it. With his 4-2 victory over Creator in the 37th season of Code S, he has become the second player with four Code S championships to his name—placing him in rarified air alongside the only other man to do so, Maru. Unlike the winningest Terran of StarCraft II, who won his first premier event only three years after his GSL debut, Rogue had to wait more than half a decade to lift his first trophy.
He has certainly made up for lost time, however. When one thinks of the defining players of Legacy of the Void they often mention Dark, Maru, Serral, and maybe even Reynor. But unlike those players who made their mark by constantly making deep tournament runs (Dark and Reynor) or via jaw dropping periods of dominance in their respective regions (Serral’s 2018 WCS campaign and Maru’s four consecutive Code S victories during a similar stretch of time), only one player has managed to retain an air of inevitability, nay, invincibility for the last five years running.
That player is Rogue, who did not lift a trophy until IEM Shanghai in late July of 2017, despite being one of the more reliable players in Proleague since 2015. Since defeating herO to claim his first trophy, Rogue has reached another 11 individual finals in Liquipedia premier-tier events. He has lost only once, to Maru in the online 2021 DH Masters Winter Finals, and is a perfect ten-for-ten in offline finals. He's lifted the championship trophy in almost every possible tournament series, including the WCS Global Finals, the IEM World Championship (twice), GSL Super Tournament, and of course, GSL Code S.
But what is even more impressive than his number of tournament victories is the sheer dominance he displays once he reaches the last hurdle. In the past five odd years Rogue has amassed a nigh unbelievable 46-19 map score in title bouts, good for a 71% game win rate. By comparison, Maru has a 55-40 game record in finals since he won his first major championship against Rain in the 2012 OnGameNet Starleague, giving him a respectable but not exactly jaw dropping 58% win rate. Outside of Korea, Serral has only managed to win 60 of the 118 maps he has played when in finals, a figure which is frankly staggering considering he has been Europe’s best player since Legacy of the Void was released. The fact that players as decorated as Maru or Serral cannot even approach Rogue when it comes to their performances on the grandest stage against truly elite opposition only affirms what Creator said after Rogue claimed his most recent title, “his preparation was on a different level.”
In 2017, when Rogue went on an absolute tear by winning IEM Shanghai and the second Super Tournament of the year just to qualify for the WCS Global Finals. He left Anaheim as the fifth WCS World Champion in StarCraft II history, joining PartinG, ByuN, sOs, and Life (Life was technically stripped of his tite). Rogue's run was unprecedented in StarCraft II history at the time, as he achieved a three month stretch of excellence where he was unquestionably the best player in the world.
Despite that tremendous run, it was understandable to question where Rogue's career would go from there. At the time it seemed possible that he might follow sOs’ path, whose first BlizzCon win opened the road to multiple world championships. He also could have mirrored ByuN, who was a veritable monster during his road to BlizzCon in the latter half of 2016 but was never able to equal that quality in later years. Not that anyone would have faulted Rogue if he went the way of ByuN (or ironically, future-sOs whose second BlizzCon victory in 2015 turned out to be his last trophy in any event)—world championships last forever, and ByuN and sOs were celebrated long after their primes.
But Rogue actually did go down the brightest path, winning his second world championship at IEM Katowice 2018 not long after BlizzCon. A relatively fallow period from mid-2018 to mid-2019 followed (at least by Rogue's now impeccable standard) in which he only reached the quarterfinals of the 2018 WCS Global Finals and never advanced past the round of 8 in four seasons of Code S. But that dry spell ended in the Autumn of 2019 when Rogue finally claimed his first Code S title against Trap in Code S Season 3.
Rogue won his first Code S championship in the final season of 2019.
At the time I waxed poetic that Rogue had evolved from being Code S quarterfinal fodder into a champion (it's easy to forget Rogue was once 0-8 in Code S quarterfinal matches), he still maintained the same ingenuity, creativity, and flexibility from the days when he was more of a Proleague-first player for Jin Air. Even as he freely admitted that the 2019 version of Zerg was overpowered in the wake of his championship, one could not help remembering that the Nydus Worms he 'abused' against Trap had been a weapon of choice long before they came into vogue (a Proleague match against herO in 2015 is particularly memorable). In the same vein, he had frequently utilized 2019's popular ZvP Zerging-Baneling composition long ago during Heart of the Swarm when Roaches were the primary tool in ZvP. He had never altered the way he viewed StarCraft II, losing none of his aggressiveness or his ability to sense blood in the water. He was the same Rogue he had always been; just even more so.
Approximately 36 months later, Rogue entered the 2022 Code S season finals as a three time champion of the competition. After all that time, he was just as daring, innovative, and decisive as ever, making him a massive favorite to defeat a surprise finalist in Creator.
Creator’s story was certainly the more heartwarming of the two heading into the finals. After all, it was hard not to get behind someone playing in their first Code S final, and hadn't advanced a single round in Code S in nearly ten years (an especially poor stretch from 2013 to 2018 saw him only qualify for Code S in six out of 17 attempts, posting a 1-12 record when he DID qualify). A Team NV interview before the finals revealed he was even on the verge of getting another job and going part-time to stay in competitive StarCraft II, with only the combination of streaming and later Team NV's support helping him stay full-time. Creator was the loveable, plucky underdog that everyone wanted to root for—especially in a game that has become increasingly stagnant over time, with new champions far and few between. But even as Creator was playing the tournament of his life—even winning in major upsets over players like Trap and Maru—one could never deny who the true endboss was.
In contrast to Creator's nearly empty resume from 2013 onward, Rogue had been Korea’s best Zerg for much of Legacy of the Void. He certainly had more trophies than rivals like Dark (seven) or soO (two from 2016 to 2020). Where Creator’s was a feel good story of emerging from the darkness into the light, Rogue was the stone-cold killer who made his riches dismantling every foe in his path. Where Creator had not won an individual championship since 2012, Rogue only needed to look back six months to his 4-1 victory over Serral in the finals of the most recent TeamLiquid StarLeague (ironically, the first tournament Creator had ever won). Where Creator was emotional, buoyed by the elation of a renaissance no one could have anticipated, Rogue was simply there to take care of business, just as he had on so many prior occasions.
Arguably, Creator's story had been better than his actual performance. He had defeated Solar, GuMiho, DRG, herO, Ragnarok, Trap and Maru—a fantastic result relative to his previous standing. But now that Creator had entered the realm of GSL finalists, the standards were different. Maru was the only legit top-tier title favorite among them, with even Trap being closer to a fringe contender.
Even worse for Creator, he had already lost to Rogue earlier in the tournament. Rogue had 2-0’d his Ro20 Group, then went 3-1 in the Round of 10, with his only loss coming against Trap when both players had already locked up spots in the Round of 6. This paired Rogue and Creator in a Best of 5 to determine who would find themselves in the Round of 4 alongside group winners Trap and Dark. The result was what one would expect: Rogue won handily in a 3-1 series. A clever timing-attack from Creator nearly let him steal game one, but he blew his chance after losing his key Disruptors in a moment of poor micro. Rogue repaid the favor somewhat in game two, failing to consolidate his lead after thwarting an all-in and letting Creator win with Stalker-Robo play. Unfortunately for Creator, the close-out two games were extremely one-sided, and he lost in about 20 minutes of combined game time.
Creator had kept his cool after losing that RO6 match, something he had often failed to do in the past, and defeated RagnaroK and Trap to reach the finals and earn a rematch with Rogue. But even with two high-stakes best of five wins under his belt, the overwhelmingly likely result of their second meeting was Rogue making Creator look silly and dashing his ambitions of becoming the first Protoss Code S champion since Stats in 2017.
Map one on Golden Wall was a perfect example of why Rogue was the logical pick to win. He opened with a proxy Hatchery at the enemy gold base, prompting Creator to try and tear it down with 2-Gate Zealots. A first time Code S finalists' jitters came into play, as Creator miscalculated his damage and failed to take down the Hatchery by a sliver of health. While Creator managed to destroy the Hatchery a bit later, Rogue had already caused enough disruption to win with a follow-up Nydus in Creator's main. Game 2 was even more one-sided. This time Rogue's proxy Hatchery went up completely undetected and a flood of Zerglings along with four Spine Crawlers put him ahead 2-0. Rogue expanded to a gold base once more in game 3, though this time it was the nearby gold base on Blackburn. Creator tried his luck with a 2-base all-in, but it only led to Rogue going up to a 3-0 score.
With Rogue only one game from closing out the series, Creator fought back on Glittering Ashes. Both players seemed comfortable playing a macro game on such a large map, but Creator withstood Rogue’s Nydus-Lurker attack to successfully assemble a Carrier-Disruptor force. Creator's army was perfectly tailored to defeating Rogue’s Hydralisk-Lurker composition, and he finally put a point on the board. Rogue showed early aggression again in game five, but his early Zerglings accomplished little and Creator capitalized on the situation, going for a Glaive Adept timing that further stunted Rogue’s economy and set up a push with Colossi and Blink Stalkers to which Rogue had no answer.
With the score at 3-2, momentum seemed to be in Creator’s favor. But if there is anything for which Rogue has become known for it is the dispassionate manner in which he approaches StarCraft IIf Every game is a new chance to win. Every game is a fresh opportunity to tie the opponent in knots. Every game is just another win to be claimed on the way to another trophy.
Creator opened with two Stargates in the sixth game, but beyond killing a few Overlords, his Void Rays accomplished nothing and were ultimately rebuffed by Rogue’s queens. Creator doubled down on skytoss, adding a third Stargate, a Fleet Beacon, and researching +1 for his air units. Rogue, meanwhile, responded with a Spire, but also an eight queen drop in Creator’s natural that whittled away at Creator’s Void Ray count. Sensing a chance to overtake Creator in the air, Rogue made around 20 Mutalisks once his Spire finished. While Creator scouted the composition switch and immediately began to produce Phoenixes, he could not prevent Rogue from killing 15 workers with the ever growing flock, nor could he react in time to prevent a Roach squad from taking down his crucial fourth base. While Creator was able to whittle the Mutalisk count down somewhat with good Phoenix micro, his ailing economy eventually forced him to consolidate his forces and push across the map in a last ditch effort. He won the initial encounter, but Rogue’s reinforcements left Creator with nothing alive but 15 phoenixes and 52 workers.
With complete control of the ground, Rogue continued to disrupt Creator's mining with runbys and Mutalisks. Creator did his best to salvage the situation, including recalling his entire army back to his main, but it was a no-win situation as it merely gave Rogue time to max out on Corruptors, Queens, Infestors and Vipers. Creator remained in the game a little bit longer, but the player camera showed he was fully aware of the writing on the wall. Once Creator came to terms with his fate, he typed out the final GG to bring the series to a close and give Rogue his fourth Code S title.
The final game was the perfect example of what has made Rogue so dominant since his emergence in Shanghai. The eight Queen drop as a mid-game harassment maneuver was a mark of Rogue’s creative, almost whimsical approach to StarCraft II. The following Mutalisk switch displayed Rogue’s desire to take the initiative whenever possible, while the constant runbys and backdoor attacks were a demonstration of his top-tier multitasking. Finally, the game-ending attack of Corruptors backed by spell-casters and Spore Crawlers illustrated Rogue’s ruthlessness and clinical execution once he identifies a path to victory.
So how are we to view Rogue five years removed from his coronation as WCS World Champion? He's definitely running out of rivals in Korea. Dark matched him in 2019 by winning a BlizzCon title and even won two Code S titles after that, but is still found wanting when judged against Rogue' gleaming record. Fellow 'Greatest of All Time' candidate Maru—who doesn't even have a World Championship of his own—has lost ground to Rogue in the domestic arena where he was supposed to be unassailable (his last Code S victory coming way back in 2019).
Halfway through 2022, it’s safe to say that Rogue has created a legacy that stands out on its own. He has done so on the back of championship after championship, beating every kind of challenger in high pressure situations. Where others wax and wane with time, Rogue is immutable. Where others go years without winning a title, Rogue is inevitable. Where others win and lose finals in equal measure, Rogue hasn't even had to play a game seven. The simple fact is that there will never be another like him. And, while you can call him a legend, the GOAT, the king of Best of 7s or any other moniker under the sun, none of them adequately describe what he has become. For Rogue is the greatest champion StarCraft II has ever known. And he will never be anything less.
Rogue is such an odd player. In terms of individual maps he's crazy inconsistent (he got 2-0'd by NightMare just this season). But then with actual tournament wins he's one of the most consistent players around.
Still, for all the complaints people have about him and his play style, I'm always happy to see him in finals where he's sure to absolutely stomp with some of the strangest looking builds around.
he has become the second player with four Code S championships to his name—placing him in rarified air alongside the only other man to do so, Maru.
Wait… what about the OG, Mvp? Or is he counted as having four “GSL” championships, instead of specifically four “Code S” championships?
With the GSLs it gets a bit wonky. If updated, Maru for example already has won five GSL titles - but only four Code S. Sometimes people put Super Tournaments and Code S together, other times it gets seperated.
On May 09 2022 02:58 Durnuu wrote: He's still a + Show Spoiler +
I think this raises the deeply philosophical question whether Patchzergs still exist if every patch ends up being good for Zerg
Obviously anyone who complains about what's been going on is an anti-zerg bigot who wants to deny them their justly earned praises for winning everything.
Nice article, good Job, finally some appriciation of Zerg, it feels like his abusive and doint what is neccesary to win, without the desire to look pretty holds him back from beeing a fan-favorite and always beeing viewed as the villian.
So basically Rogue's Achilles heel is BO5 knockout matches. And the format changed this year just to snipe him. Shame on GSL! Another reason to boycott!
Damn, this is great write up from tl writer whom I used to detest before. From "The Emperor Has No Clothes: Rogue's Future Legacy" to "Rogue wins 4th GSL Code S Championship".
Rogue used to be called patchzerg but that title hasn't ever been called to the player who won a handful of championships right after he did a year before. For me, it was just inevitable that Finnish player was younger than Rogue and could do many things when competitions were not stacked as few years back. Rogue nowadays relies more in his mind-games, games sense, strategic planning and good micro but the longer the game subsides, his poor handling of units and multitasking end up costing him a game. His mechanic is no longer superior like his older days when he is about similar age as Finnish player.
Again, record is still a record, though. His impressive resume aside from the Bo7 records and undefeated streak in the offline final matches, should put himself on the top of any legendary Sc2 figures with Maru or Innovation only come to contest.
On May 09 2022 17:30 lechatnoir wrote: As much as I'm sick of ZvZ finals I want another vs Serral. There hasn't been a finals between them except TSL8 right?
Serral does not have a chance against Rogue in the finals, it would be a brutal stomp. To truly challenge Rogue, it would have to be against Reynor. He would be a threat with his aggressive style and mind games which sometimes can even rival Rogue.
Creator went on a dream run to get to the finals. I doubt anyone would've predicted he could make it this far. It's a shame he wasn't able to get over the final hurdle, but he took two games more than I thought he would. In the end, Rogue seemed better prepared and deserved to pick up the win, so congratulations to Rogue.
On May 09 2022 20:17 MJG wrote: Creator went on a dream run to get to the finals. I doubt anyone would've predicted he could make it this far. It's a shame he wasn't able to get over the final hurdle, but he took two games more than I thought he would. In the end, Rogue seemed better prepared and deserved to pick up the win, so congratulations to Rogue.
On May 09 2022 20:17 MJG wrote: Creator went on a dream run to get to the finals. I doubt anyone would've predicted he could make it this far. It's a shame he wasn't able to get over the final hurdle, but he took two games more than I thought he would. In the end, Rogue seemed better prepared and deserved to pick up the win, so congratulations to Rogue.
On May 09 2022 03:02 Elentos wrote:
On May 09 2022 02:58 Durnuu wrote: He's still a + Show Spoiler +
I think this raises the deeply philosophical question whether Patchzergs still exist if every patch ends up being good for Zerg
You could call them "Expansionzergs" instead, I suppose?
NesTea and Life did it while Zerg was weak, or at best balanced lol
Zerg has always been strong, just took a while for people to figure out the game in WOL, as soon as you stay in a stable meta where patch changes are minimal zerg always dominate because the other 2 races cant create new problems for Zerg to solve at the highest level, this is why zerg needs to get nerfed and nerfed hard
On May 09 2022 20:17 MJG wrote: Creator went on a dream run to get to the finals. I doubt anyone would've predicted he could make it this far. It's a shame he wasn't able to get over the final hurdle, but he took two games more than I thought he would. In the end, Rogue seemed better prepared and deserved to pick up the win, so congratulations to Rogue.
On May 09 2022 03:02 Elentos wrote:
On May 09 2022 02:58 Durnuu wrote: He's still a + Show Spoiler +
I think this raises the deeply philosophical question whether Patchzergs still exist if every patch ends up being good for Zerg
You could call them "Expansionzergs" instead, I suppose?
NesTea and Life did it while Zerg was weak, or at best balanced lol
On May 09 2022 20:17 MJG wrote: Creator went on a dream run to get to the finals. I doubt anyone would've predicted he could make it this far. It's a shame he wasn't able to get over the final hurdle, but he took two games more than I thought he would. In the end, Rogue seemed better prepared and deserved to pick up the win, so congratulations to Rogue.
On May 09 2022 03:02 Elentos wrote:
On May 09 2022 02:58 Durnuu wrote: He's still a + Show Spoiler +
I think this raises the deeply philosophical question whether Patchzergs still exist if every patch ends up being good for Zerg
You could call them "Expansionzergs" instead, I suppose?
NesTea and Life did it while Zerg was weak, or at best balanced lol
and soO
Fruitdealer did it on maps like Desert Oasis and Kulas Ravine where getting a second base was almost impossible .
On May 09 2022 20:17 MJG wrote: Creator went on a dream run to get to the finals. I doubt anyone would've predicted he could make it this far. It's a shame he wasn't able to get over the final hurdle, but he took two games more than I thought he would. In the end, Rogue seemed better prepared and deserved to pick up the win, so congratulations to Rogue.
On May 09 2022 03:02 Elentos wrote:
On May 09 2022 02:58 Durnuu wrote: He's still a + Show Spoiler +
I think this raises the deeply philosophical question whether Patchzergs still exist if every patch ends up being good for Zerg
You could call them "Expansionzergs" instead, I suppose?
NesTea and Life did it while Zerg was weak, or at best balanced lol
and soO
Fruitdealer did it on maps like Desert Oasis and Kulas Ravine where getting a second base was almost impossible .
On May 09 2022 17:30 lechatnoir wrote: As much as I'm sick of ZvZ finals I want another vs Serral. There hasn't been a finals between them except TSL8 right?
Serral does not have a chance against Rogue in the finals, it would be a brutal stomp. To truly challenge Rogue, it would have to be against Reynor. He would be a threat with his aggressive style and mind games which sometimes can even rival Rogue.
That seems really silly to say when Serral beat Rogue 3-0 in the semis of IEM Katowice, not particularly a minor tournament. I don't think Semis and Finals differ enough from one another to state it'd be a brutal stomp in any event.
On May 09 2022 17:30 lechatnoir wrote: As much as I'm sick of ZvZ finals I want another vs Serral. There hasn't been a finals between them except TSL8 right?
Serral does not have a chance against Rogue in the finals, it would be a brutal stomp. To truly challenge Rogue, it would have to be against Reynor. He would be a threat with his aggressive style and mind games which sometimes can even rival Rogue.
That seems really silly to say when Serral beat Rogue 3-0 in the semis of IEM Katowice, not particularly a minor tournament. I don't think Semis and Finals differ enough from one another to state it'd be a brutal stomp in any event.
Such are mirrors, ZvZ especially you seem to get a lot of sweeps where actually the individual games are pretty tight, or a few gambles paying off here, a misread there and it’s a sweep.
I’d slightly favour Rogue in this current meta to be fair, he’s a tricky customer with everything in his locker, and it’s quite a tricky and volatile matchup.
There was a previous meta where everything was pretty stable into roach/latterly viper wars and Serral was untouchable in the matchup.
On May 09 2022 17:30 lechatnoir wrote: As much as I'm sick of ZvZ finals I want another vs Serral. There hasn't been a finals between them except TSL8 right?
Serral does not have a chance against Rogue in the finals, it would be a brutal stomp. To truly challenge Rogue, it would have to be against Reynor. He would be a threat with his aggressive style and mind games which sometimes can even rival Rogue.
That seems really silly to say when Serral beat Rogue 3-0 in the semis of IEM Katowice, not particularly a minor tournament. I don't think Semis and Finals differ enough from one another to state it'd be a brutal stomp in any event.
Such are mirrors, ZvZ especially you seem to get a lot of sweeps where actually the individual games are pretty tight, or a few gambles paying off here, a misread there and it’s a sweep.
I’d slightly favour Rogue in this current meta to be fair, he’s a tricky customer with everything in his locker, and it’s quite a tricky and volatile matchup.
There was a previous meta where everything was pretty stable into roach/latterly viper wars and Serral was untouchable in the matchup.
Wasn't objecting to Rogue being a favorite - I think it'd be a tossup and more dependent on the form of the day - but rather their statement that Serral wouldn't have a chance against Rogue and that it'd be a brutal stomp - this has been proven to be incorrect plenty.
On May 09 2022 17:30 lechatnoir wrote: As much as I'm sick of ZvZ finals I want another vs Serral. There hasn't been a finals between them except TSL8 right?
Serral does not have a chance against Rogue in the finals, it would be a brutal stomp. To truly challenge Rogue, it would have to be against Reynor. He would be a threat with his aggressive style and mind games which sometimes can even rival Rogue.
That's why Serral does the 1000iq thing and take out Rogue 3-0 before he reaches the finals. To truly beat Rogue you have to prevent him from getting into a best of 7. Realistically though, I think guys like Serral, Reynor, Maru, Rogue can take out each other on any given day.
On May 09 2022 17:30 lechatnoir wrote: As much as I'm sick of ZvZ finals I want another vs Serral. There hasn't been a finals between them except TSL8 right?
Serral does not have a chance against Rogue in the finals, it would be a brutal stomp. To truly challenge Rogue, it would have to be against Reynor. He would be a threat with his aggressive style and mind games which sometimes can even rival Rogue.
On May 09 2022 17:30 lechatnoir wrote: As much as I'm sick of ZvZ finals I want another vs Serral. There hasn't been a finals between them except TSL8 right?
Serral does not have a chance against Rogue in the finals, it would be a brutal stomp. To truly challenge Rogue, it would have to be against Reynor. He would be a threat with his aggressive style and mind games which sometimes can even rival Rogue.
Do you even watch SC nowdays?
He was referring to Serral's brutal series swept in their recent final match meeting. Nothing personal though.
On May 09 2022 17:30 lechatnoir wrote: As much as I'm sick of ZvZ finals I want another vs Serral. There hasn't been a finals between them except TSL8 right?
Serral does not have a chance against Rogue in the finals, it would be a brutal stomp. To truly challenge Rogue, it would have to be against Reynor. He would be a threat with his aggressive style and mind games which sometimes can even rival Rogue.
That seems really silly to say when Serral beat Rogue 3-0 in the semis of IEM Katowice, not particularly a minor tournament. I don't think Semis and Finals differ enough from one another to state it'd be a brutal stomp in any event.
Saying bo5 semifinal is not that different to the bo7 final seems really silly when the whole article revolves around Rogues finals record specifically and how Rogue is such a different player especially in finals and bo7 series.
They met 1 time in a bo7 final so far and Rogue humiliated serral. It was a brutal stomp. Could it be different next time? Sure, but looking at the statistics and Serrals playstyle I dont think so.
As I said Reynor would be a much harder opponent for Rogue in the finals because of the playstyle match and I stand by what I said.
"For Rogue is the greatest champion StarCraft II has ever known"
the truth cant be further away
because for the greatest champion sc2 has ever known he is overal losing to many maps is to inconsistent losing to many tournament series vs lvl 2/3 players others would not his late game and specialy his skill ceiling is not top 3 winning vs creater ore general a gsl these days dosent give u any claims for beeing the goat
On May 12 2022 21:47 tilhorizon wrote: "For Rogue is the greatest champion StarCraft II has ever known"
the truth cant be further away
because for the greatest champion sc2 has ever known he is overal losing to many maps is to inconsistent losing to many tournament series vs lvl 2/3 players others would not his late game and specialy his skill ceiling is not top 3 winning vs creater ore general a gsl these days dosent give u any claims for beeing the goat
Uhhhhh.... No other Zerg in the world has ever come close to Rogue. None. In fact the top Zergs in recent history (defined as since 2018) are Rogue, Dark and Reynor. No other Zerg ever reached their level ever. Every other Zerg has never ever been able to perform at their level. I feel sorry for people who think there has been any other Zerg since 2018 who can even compete on the level of these 3 without the game being a severe fluke.
If you haven't won a GSL Code S, you literally can't be considered GOAT material. That's laughable at best to think anyone who is too scared to play against the big boys in Code S is anything less than an anomaly, a fluke and a mediocre player at best.
On May 12 2022 21:47 tilhorizon wrote: "For Rogue is the greatest champion StarCraft II has ever known"
the truth cant be further away
because for the greatest champion sc2 has ever known he is overal losing to many maps is to inconsistent losing to many tournament series vs lvl 2/3 players others would not his late game and specialy his skill ceiling is not top 3 winning vs creater ore general a gsl these days dosent give u any claims for beeing the goat
Uhhhhh.... No other Zerg in the world has ever come close to Rogue. None. In fact the top Zergs in recent history (defined as since 2018) are Rogue, Dark and Reynor. No other Zerg ever reached their level ever. Every other Zerg has never ever been able to perform at their level. I feel sorry for people who think there has been any other Zerg since 2018 who can even compete on the level of these 3 without the game being a severe fluke.
If you haven't won a GSL Code S, you literally can't be considered GOAT material. That's laughable at best to think anyone who is too scared to play against the big boys in Code S is anything less than an anomaly, a fluke and a mediocre player at best.
On May 12 2022 21:47 tilhorizon wrote: "For Rogue is the greatest champion StarCraft II has ever known"
the truth cant be further away
because for the greatest champion sc2 has ever known he is overal losing to many maps is to inconsistent losing to many tournament series vs lvl 2/3 players others would not his late game and specialy his skill ceiling is not top 3 winning vs creater ore general a gsl these days dosent give u any claims for beeing the goat
Uhhhhh.... No other Zerg in the world has ever come close to Rogue. None. In fact the top Zergs in recent history (defined as since 2018) are Rogue, Dark and Reynor. No other Zerg ever reached their level ever. Every other Zerg has never ever been able to perform at their level. I feel sorry for people who think there has been any other Zerg since 2018 who can even compete on the level of these 3 without the game being a severe fluke.
If you haven't won a GSL Code S, you literally can't be considered GOAT material. That's laughable at best to think anyone who is too scared to play against the big boys in Code S is anything less than an anomaly, a fluke and a mediocre player at best.
On May 12 2022 21:47 tilhorizon wrote: "For Rogue is the greatest champion StarCraft II has ever known"
the truth cant be further away
because for the greatest champion sc2 has ever known he is overal losing to many maps is to inconsistent losing to many tournament series vs lvl 2/3 players others would not his late game and specialy his skill ceiling is not top 3 winning vs creater ore general a gsl these days dosent give u any claims for beeing the goat
I think you missed the point of that statement. Its not that hes consistently the best player every time he shows up because we all know he generally has a lull after winning a tourney. But the point is that he just knows how to win by any means whether that is a beautiful game or the ugliest roach all in. His series planning and mind games are on a level of their own in extended series.
Thats what makes him the greatest champion while maybe not being the greatest player.
Also while not what it once was gsl still has more top players than the dh eu/na but the level is getting much much closer
On May 12 2022 21:47 tilhorizon wrote: "For Rogue is the greatest champion StarCraft II has ever known"
the truth cant be further away
because for the greatest champion sc2 has ever known he is overal losing to many maps is to inconsistent losing to many tournament series vs lvl 2/3 players others would not his late game and specialy his skill ceiling is not top 3 winning vs creater ore general a gsl these days dosent give u any claims for beeing the goat
Uhhhhh.... No other Zerg in the world has ever come close to Rogue. None. In fact the top Zergs in recent history (defined as since 2018) are Rogue, Dark and Reynor. No other Zerg ever reached their level ever. Every other Zerg has never ever been able to perform at their level. I feel sorry for people who think there has been any other Zerg since 2018 who can even compete on the level of these 3 without the game being a severe fluke.
If you haven't won a GSL Code S, you literally can't be considered GOAT material. That's laughable at best to think anyone who is too scared to play against the big boys in Code S is anything less than an anomaly, a fluke and a mediocre player at best.
Serral would like a word.
Code S certainly used to be a crucial box to be ticked, she’s sadly not nearly as stacked as she used to be, to the extent I think nowadays there’s as much of a question mark on the Code S champion winning a tournament without Serral and Reynor in it, as there is on those guys not having a Code S.
Rogue’s certainly up there in the GOAT stakes for his clutch tournament play as much as his medal haul for me regardless.
On May 12 2022 21:47 tilhorizon wrote: "For Rogue is the greatest champion StarCraft II has ever known"
the truth cant be further away
because for the greatest champion sc2 has ever known he is overal losing to many maps is to inconsistent losing to many tournament series vs lvl 2/3 players others would not his late game and specialy his skill ceiling is not top 3 winning vs creater ore general a gsl these days dosent give u any claims for beeing the goat
Uhhhhh.... No other Zerg in the world has ever come close to Rogue. None. In fact the top Zergs in recent history (defined as since 2018) are Rogue, Dark and Reynor. No other Zerg ever reached their level ever. Every other Zerg has never ever been able to perform at their level. I feel sorry for people who think there has been any other Zerg since 2018 who can even compete on the level of these 3 without the game being a severe fluke.
If you haven't won a GSL Code S, you literally can't be considered GOAT material. That's laughable at best to think anyone who is too scared to play against the big boys in Code S is anything less than an anomaly, a fluke and a mediocre player at best.
Serral would like a word.
Code S certainly used to be a crucial box to be ticked, she’s sadly not nearly as stacked as she used to be, to the extent I think nowadays there’s as much of a question mark on the Code S champion winning a tournament without Serral and Reynor in it, as there is on those guys not having a Code S.
Rogue’s certainly up there in the GOAT stakes for his clutch tournament play as much as his medal haul for me regardless.
This is certainly true in a discussion about the current best player but in a discussion about the greatest player OF ALL TIME I think not having a Code S is a big gap in the resumee as for the majority of sc2's lifespan it was THE major tournament (2010 until 2019-20 maybe?)
But I agree that Rogue's GSLs shouldn't be worth as much as GSL victories in the past which is why I personally don't think he's the Goat
On May 12 2022 21:47 tilhorizon wrote: "For Rogue is the greatest champion StarCraft II has ever known"
the truth cant be further away
because for the greatest champion sc2 has ever known he is overal losing to many maps is to inconsistent losing to many tournament series vs lvl 2/3 players others would not his late game and specialy his skill ceiling is not top 3 winning vs creater ore general a gsl these days dosent give u any claims for beeing the goat
Uhhhhh.... No other Zerg in the world has ever come close to Rogue. None. In fact the top Zergs in recent history (defined as since 2018) are Rogue, Dark and Reynor. No other Zerg ever reached their level ever. Every other Zerg has never ever been able to perform at their level. I feel sorry for people who think there has been any other Zerg since 2018 who can even compete on the level of these 3 without the game being a severe fluke.
If you haven't won a GSL Code S, you literally can't be considered GOAT material. That's laughable at best to think anyone who is too scared to play against the big boys in Code S is anything less than an anomaly, a fluke and a mediocre player at best.
Serral would like a word.
Code S certainly used to be a crucial box to be ticked, she’s sadly not nearly as stacked as she used to be, to the extent I think nowadays there’s as much of a question mark on the Code S champion winning a tournament without Serral and Reynor in it, as there is on those guys not having a Code S.
Rogue’s certainly up there in the GOAT stakes for his clutch tournament play as much as his medal haul for me regardless.
This is certainly true in a discussion about the current best player but in a discussion about the greatest player OF ALL TIME I think not having a Code S is a big gap in the resumee as for the majority of sc2's lifespan it was THE major tournament (2010 until 2019-20 maybe?)
But I agree that Rogue's GSLs shouldn't be worth as much as GSL victories in the past which is why I personally don't think he's the Goat
It’s certainly a gap in the resume, although at this point I think Serral/Reynor/Clem and other foreigners playing in Code S is more something that would be cool to see as a fewer and enhance the tournament’s depth than something they need to do to prove their chops.
We’ve had 3 different games in the SC2 lifespan, let alone patches and metas.
Then the Kespa era, and the eras before and after that, big changes to tournament structures and yearly circuit and all sorts.
I will continue to pussy out of naming my singular GOAT as it’s just so blooming difficult to directly compare players with all these factors in play.
I’d just have a list of greats really, which Rogue has definitely made it on to
If rogue got nothing but 4 (potentially 5) GSLs, we may doubt if he could be the GOAT. If rogue got nothing but 2IEM WC + 1BLC WC, we may still doubt if he could be the GOAT. But...Who the fk on earth could possibly win 2IEM WC + 4GSLs(potentially 5) + 1BLC WC in one's sc2 career???? I mean, excuse me??????????Its like, are you MJ in sc2????????????????
Watching Creator do really well and winning on solid play reminds me of Bunny's foray a few seasons ago. Both players elevated their base line and then they both beat players we didn't think they'd beat. Bunny deviced strategies based on the opponents and the maps to make great aggressive plays while Creator seemed to do a similar thing but being more defensive than aggressive. Bunny hit the wall Trap, who basically changed his playstyle and all of Bunny's preparation became moot. Creator hit the wall Rogue, who just aggroed differently and made Creator's defence collapse.
I cheered for Bunny, the cj entus' bench warmer who never got a breakthrough. I cheered for Creator, the young prodigy that was relegated to the lower leagues. They played really well but they failed to topple the giants.
Huh...? Didn't they create a G5L Trophy only for Mvp if he would have won Finale vs (i think) Life? So now you tell me he only has 3 Code S titles. So Maru should have G5L already in his pocket?
And Rogue has 2 Supertournament wins in addition to his 4 Code S championships. If we were counting ST wins then this win would have gotten him the G5L trophy.
Edit: I'm stupid and can't do math. His last ST win would have gotten him G5L if STs counted.
On May 09 2022 02:58 Durnuu wrote: He's still a + Show Spoiler +
The real patch-player is ByuN, whether you like it or not =) After reapers were nerfed he never succeeded
Reapers were nerfed multiple times and banelings got buffed, if anything ByuN was too strong and had to be nerfed.
It was literally a ByuN nerf (two of them!), Maru was the only other person to try the 3-rax reaper vs. Zerg strategy and even he couldn't consistently make it work. ByuN is the Starcraft version of the NCAA banning dunking because of Lew Alcindor (now known as Kareem-Abdul Jabbar), or the MLB lowering the mound after Bob Gibson put up a 1.12 ERA.