On April 06 2022 23:09 SHODAN wrote: I didn't watch much sc2 in 2021. am excited to see why everyone is screaming about Golden Wall :D
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jesus christ man. I was not expecting this level of quality response. easily one of the best replies I ever got on the internet. now that you explained it with so much clarity, I remember now a match played on this map (TvT, also feat. Maru). one of them took the gold base and another expanded north. it ended in one of the craziest base-trades.
I remember when Whirlwind first appeared in starcraft 2 and completely changed the game, and how the same thing happened with WC3 maps. you're absolutely right. the longevity of sc2 will depend hugely on the mapmakers. I played an absolutely insane amount of 1v1 sc2 until about 2 years ago, when I suddenly dropped it. went on a big hiatus. I logged in about a week ago, started playing again. all the maps are different, but I already knew them like the back of my hand because they are basically identical in concept to the maps I played before. there have been a few slightly quirky ones over the years, like Disco Inferno, which still feels like the TALLEST map I've ever played, and Red City which had those tiny paths going everywhere. there was that one in HotS with a collapsible rock at the natural. other than a few little quirks here and there, I already know my way around all of the new maps without even thinking about it. what's up with that?
I think even the most accepted fundamentals of map design should be open to review at this point. a suggestion from a recent thread questioned the overlord at the natural, how it would completely change early game PvZ if the guaranteed early-game scout was removed. sc2 mapmaking became dogmatic. when you come from a game as refined as BW or WC3 and you try your luck on Delta quadrant or Scrap station, it puts the community on the defensive about maps. I wonder how much different sc2 would have developed if the maps were more finely tuned towards competitive macro 1v1 when the game first launched. way too much emphasis on the Xel'Naga tower that revealed 40% of the map, or the destructible rock which unlocked the elusive 3rd base you could never take as terran / protoss. imagine the 2010 open GSL season 2 with NesTea, MKP and BoxeR playing on the current ladder map pool. it would have been amazing to watch the game develop on those terms, with the hyper-standardized map-pool we have today.
that's to say nothing of the development of sc2 from a racial balance and unit design perspective! I think DK & team would have done a lot better if the game was more grounded in decent map design from the get-go.
On April 06 2022 23:09 SHODAN wrote: I didn't watch much sc2 in 2021. am excited to see why everyone is screaming about Golden Wall :D
...
jesus christ man. I was not expecting this level of quality response. easily one of the best replies I ever got on the internet. now that you explained it with so much clarity, I remember now a match played on this map (TvT, also feat. Maru). one of them took the gold base and another expanded north. it ended in one of the craziest base-trades.
I remember when Whirlwind first appeared in starcraft 2 and completely changed the game, and how the same thing happened with WC3 maps. you're absolutely right. the longevity of sc2 will depend hugely on the mapmakers. I played an absolutely insane amount of 1v1 sc2 until about 2 years ago, when I suddenly dropped it. went on a big hiatus. I logged in about a week ago, started playing again. all the maps are different, but I already knew them like the back of my hand because they are basically identical in concept to the maps I played before. there have been a few slightly quirky ones over the years, like Disco Inferno, which still feels like the TALLEST map I've ever played, and Red City which had those tiny paths going everywhere. there was that one in HotS with a collapsible rock at the natural. other than a few little quirks here and there, I already know my way around all of the new maps without even thinking about it. what's up with that?
I think even the most accepted fundamentals of map design should be open to review at this point. a suggestion from a recent thread questioned the overlord at the natural, how it would completely change early game PvZ if the guaranteed early-game scout was removed. sc2 mapmaking became dogmatic. when you come from a game as refined as BW or WC3 and you try your luck on Delta quadrant or Scrap station, it puts the community on the defensive about maps. I wonder how much different sc2 would have developed if the maps were more finely tuned towards competitive macro 1v1 when the game first launched. way too much emphasis on the Xel'Naga tower that revealed 40% of the map, or the destructible rock which unlocked the elusive 3rd base you could never take as terran / protoss. imagine the 2010 open GSL season 2 with NesTea, MKP and BoxeR playing on the current ladder map pool. it would have been amazing to watch the game develop on those terms, with the hyper-standardized map-pool we have today.
that's to say nothing of the development of sc2 from a racial balance and unit design perspective! I think DK & team would have done a lot better if the game was more grounded in decent map design from the get-go.
Thank you for the kind comment T^T. I'm glad you liked my post! I try not to type walls but I just had to for this. I felt if even 1 person would read it, I would be very happy <3
I don't remember if I saw that Maru TvT on GW... but I'll look for it! It sounds very fun. Yeah, base trades on maps like GW can be so crazy, there's so many options to re-expand or attack, and you have to account for attack/reinforcement paths! Also more incentive to create production facilities at bases other than your main/nat.
Yeah I was thinking Whirlwind too! And you're right about maps. They do have subtle interesting differences, but the 4-5 base layout almost always feels the same. I haven't been playing much SC2 the last couple years, but I'd love to once I can get some more time. Actually now I look it up, do you mean Inferno Pools? Red City I do remember a little bit, definitely it tried to be a bit more different.
I'm remembering that really tall map Crossfire, where Nestea and sC played a really intense game of attrition that went down to the last few units! Even on a map layout like that, there were chances to re-stabilize and try to claw your way back in. Ways to de-emphasize the effectiveness of attacking with 1 big army, and turning it into more of a committal and risky bold option, than your go-to option for attacking.
You bring up a really interesting point. That if maps were larger and more macro oriented from the start, the direction of balance and thus design may have ended up being different than how things are today. For example, having to increase Stim duration because maps were too small. Perhaps a bigger map would have meant there wasn't as much a need to nerf Stim rushes.
I agree we should always keep an open mind and review even the most accepted fundamentals of map design. There can always be that one new idea that can challenge those fundamentals. I agree that I think if the maps were more macro oriented and better designed early on, the balance/design team would have had a much easier time. It took so long to finally get to the "small fights all over the map" gameplay we see much more commonly in modern LotV. We had to go all the way from those tiny maps to figuring out a decent standard for macro maps.
Also holey hell, I would love to see Nestea and Slayers Boxer especially play in modern day SC2, or at least maps similar to what we have now!! There would be so much crazy plays and chaotic base trades. MKP too - since he loved going for ballsy base trade situations.
Group A seems easier in regard of players who can advance. Rogue should be fixed but you never know with him and the rest of the players are basically a toss up. I slightly favor Ryung and Trap but would not be surprised with Byun advancing as well. Group B has Dark and Maru who I dont ever see not advancing from basically any group so only 1 place left. I think Creator can do it and end up on 3rd. Normally I would favor herO but there arent any Terrans and his PvZ does not seem good at all.
Some quality nostalgia-inducing posts up there folks, ah what I come to TL for.
SC2 maps do a good job facilitating a certain standard metagame, but to a degree they do also force a standard.
Something more off-the-wall (pun intended) and we get to see pros come up with sometimes unique strategies for specific maps.
Wonky maps can be much more annoying to play than watch for us plebs sometimes, so I think getting some exposure in the prestige prep tournament is a perfect place to try them out.
Or alternatively experimentation may see an expansion of the repertoire that can make up a standard map, and we see some evolution there.
On April 07 2022 18:44 WombaT wrote: Some quality nostalgia-inducing posts up there folks, ah what I come to TL for.
SC2 maps do a good job facilitating a certain standard metagame, but to a degree they do also force a standard.
Something more off-the-wall (pun intended) and we get to see pros come up with sometimes unique strategies for specific maps.
Wonky maps can be much more annoying to play than watch for us plebs sometimes, so I think getting some exposure in the prestige prep tournament is a perfect place to try them out.
Or alternatively experimentation may see an expansion of the repertoire that can make up a standard map, and we see some evolution there.
Thing is, most experimental maps led to more stale gameplay than standard maps due to certain abusive strategies just becoming dominant on that map. Getting a creative map that doesn't lead to stale gameplay and isn't very imbalanced is just very very hard to do so I wouldn't want to see too many of those attempts in a single mappool. Golden Wall was certainly the best one of its kind though
Curious Minds and Pride of Altaris were seldom picked in the Ro20, and the Ro10 being Bo3 means that players can veto Golden Wall and Nautilus II if necessary
On April 07 2022 18:44 WombaT wrote: Some quality nostalgia-inducing posts up there folks, ah what I come to TL for.
SC2 maps do a good job facilitating a certain standard metagame, but to a degree they do also force a standard.
Something more off-the-wall (pun intended) and we get to see pros come up with sometimes unique strategies for specific maps.
Wonky maps can be much more annoying to play than watch for us plebs sometimes, so I think getting some exposure in the prestige prep tournament is a perfect place to try them out.
Or alternatively experimentation may see an expansion of the repertoire that can make up a standard map, and we see some evolution there.
Thing is, most experimental maps led to more stale gameplay than standard maps due to certain abusive strategies just becoming dominant on that map. Getting a creative map that doesn't lead to stale gameplay and isn't very imbalanced is just very very hard to do so I wouldn't want to see too many of those attempts in a single mappool. Golden Wall was certainly the best one of its kind though
Personally I like non-standard and wonky maps a lot more because a) most of the standard maps are heavily zerg favored b) we have so many standard maps that the gameplay there is a bit stale Of course I wouldnt all the maps to be wonky but a better balance would be good imo.
Don't follow SC2 much these days. Vaguely recall a recent map (not sure what, and whether still in pool) with a mineral patch that can be mined from both sides. So there was a funny game where both players had bases mining the same patch (Rogue and Dark, I think). Not sure about balance. But it's worth exploring tweaking the shape and size of patches and geysers. More double-sided patches! How about one which snakes around like a canyon? Or a spot with 3-4 gas geysers without minerals?
On April 08 2022 12:12 RKC wrote: Yes, brilliant insights, Yoshi!
Don't follow SC2 much these days. Vaguely recall a recent map (not sure what, and whether still in pool) with a mineral patch that can be mined from both sides. So there was a funny game where both players had bases mining the same patch (Rogue and Dark, I think). Not sure about balance. But it's worth exploring tweaking the shape and size of patches and geysers. More double-sided patches! How about one which snakes around like a canyon? Or a spot with 3-4 gas geysers without minerals?
EPT
