EPTHow do you feel about the new PTR patch notes? - Page 2
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Zambrah
United States7393 Posts
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SHODAN
United Kingdom1144 Posts
it is an urgent patch to remove the super broken stuff. that's what this feels like to me, some initial emergency patching before they introduce more experimental changes. I'm sure that it will be followed with a bigger patch in the future, one that cracks open the lategame and improves on some fundamental gameplay. I look forward to that, but it would have been completely out of place in this patch we're seeing now | ||
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Legan
Finland524 Posts
How many people that currently play have actually played on PTR already? | ||
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Pentarp
224 Posts
On March 11 2022 10:09 Nebuchad wrote: Dude every attack that protoss does is gimmicky and every attack that terran does is mastermind clever trickery, we know how you guys pretend adjectives work. I do believe that it's healthy for a strategy game to have ways to end games early, yes. But regardless, even if I thought it was unhealthy for the scene I wouldn't approach a balance patch looking only at stuff I don't like, I would also try and produce a balance result that is connected with the current balance situation, and two nerfs in PvT, including a pretty large one, compensated by a non-specific terran nerf so small that even xelnaga_empire likes the patch, isn't gonna do that. Yes of course protoss will benefit from no queen walks lol. Nerfing the lurker is a good idea and I can see a few games where the protoss lost stupidly and they wouldn't have with this patch. Zerg will be weaker against protoss than it was, and that is good. Do I think that's enough for me to start watching games again? No lol I don't think that, not even close. Are you seriously saying that proxy battery shield isn't gimmicky? Please stop. Given how the recent ESL ended up being ZvZ finals with 3 zergs in ro4, the changes to Zerg will likely have a bigger impact on Protoss progamers. Again, removing queen walk is huge. But you'll never be able to comprehend basic logic. | ||
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washikie
United States752 Posts
I do agree with artosis take on this patch though which is what does this do to increase the likelihood of us getting Protoss and Terran champions in tournament's. The answer being it doesn’t do much at all. Zerg needs some adjustments not present in this patch imo. Or the other races need buffs to there mid game pressure. The nerfs will really help the stale meta in zvp which is badly needed. The battery and void nerf is a huge improvement for ladder, I’m hoping we get to a point where we at least have to face only 2 Protoss for evrey Terran and Zerg at high mmr. I don’t think the lurker change is enough to fix lurker issues. But it’s a start. They still are way to fast for a siege unit which makes them to strong on many maps. Having a siege unit as devistating as the lurker move so fast feels wrong. The queen change will also help a lot with zvp meta. I don’t think it will really impact the best zergs though. Since serral reynor ect don’t have to rely on timings to beat toss late game. Dt change is good. The blinking on planetary thing was a bit to strong and discouraged Terran from playing a more defensive game. Protoss has alot of extremely punishing mechanics in the late game that make playing tvp frustrating. It was a bit to much of an ask to be ready to repair any planetary instantly while also dodging 15+ disruptor shots and defending warp prism harass. I think toning this down is a good change for the health of the mu. It makes expanding in the late game more enticing for Terran. It opens up options other Than just trying to break toss on 4 bases before the game drags on to long without a big decisive fight. At high level the mu might favor Terran though. I feel like toss is missing something that helps them scale with skill as much as Terran and Zerg. Terran has the multitasking/micro infinite skill ceiling and zerg has the same for macro/ drones vs unit decisions and late game caster control. Toss need something harder about them but more rewarding for good players, not sure what you can do to fix them though. To many of the late game units kind of perform optimally just by being deathball a moved. Even harass like dts or zealots is kind of set and forget, the dts or zealots almost never get to retreat so there’s no point in watching them. right now I think most toss pros differentiate themselves by minimizing mistakes and selecting smart builds. This just does not seem to scale as hard a perfecting Zerg or Terran mechanics. Making toss to Ez at most levels of play but not as competitive at the highest level. Not saying toss does not take skill btw it absolutely does but I feel like it’s just off compared to other races. Maybe a return to ground toss pvz will help with this problem. | ||
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Nebuchad
Switzerland12377 Posts
On March 12 2022 07:31 Pentarp wrote: Are you seriously saying that proxy battery shield isn't gimmicky? Please stop. Given how the recent ESL ended up being ZvZ finals with 3 zergs in ro4, the changes to Zerg will likely have a bigger impact on Protoss progamers. Again, removing queen walk is huge. But you'll never be able to comprehend basic logic. Gimmicky means that it has no value and it's meant to grab people's attention, especially to make them buy something. My guess is the protoss who does that to you isn't trying to sell you anything, he's just after your ladder points. Kind of like when a terran proxies his starport and puts some hellions in your base to see if you instantly lose because you have one unit misplaced, I think the goal is pretty clear there as well. But let me know if you can use basic logic to come to a different conclusion. | ||
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honorablemacroterran
188 Posts
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DarkGamer
Germany323 Posts
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Pentarp
224 Posts
On March 12 2022 10:10 Nebuchad wrote: Gimmicky means that it has no value and it's meant to grab people's attention, especially to make them buy something. My guess is the protoss who does that to you isn't trying to sell you anything, he's just after your ladder points. Kind of like when a terran proxies his starport and puts some hellions in your base to see if you instantly lose because you have one unit misplaced, I think the goal is pretty clear there as well. But let me know if you can use basic logic to come to a different conclusion. What are you even trying to say here? Just be straightforward and say this: "I don't think proxy shield-battery is gimmicky and bad for the scene." Don't be such a weasel. Queen walk nerf is huge for Protoss vs Zerg. Lurker burrow speed nerf is a good step towards making ground Protoss viable vs Z. Widowmine burrow speed is a nerf to mass widow-mine drops that Maru and other Terrans use at the highest levels vs Protoss. | ||
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Nebuchad
Switzerland12377 Posts
On March 12 2022 22:34 Pentarp wrote: What are you even trying to say here? Just be straightforward and say this: "I don't think proxy shield-battery is gimmicky and bad for the scene." Don't be such a weasel. Queen walk nerf is huge for Protoss vs Zerg. Lurker burrow speed nerf is a good step towards making ground Protoss viable vs Z. Widowmine burrow speed is a nerf to mass widow-mine drops that Maru and other Terrans use at the highest levels vs Protoss. I already said all that (except the Maru stuff that isn't very relevant). I'm not sure what you're trying to accomplish. | ||
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Elantris
66 Posts
Like we all suddenly forgot what meta was before void buffs. I can tell you it was toss dying to ravager-bane at his third every game. | ||
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WombaT
Northern Ireland26225 Posts
On March 11 2022 20:52 SHODAN wrote: bill gates ordered an emergency patch to fix the super broken stuff. DTs insta-gibbing command centers... void ray rushes... queen walks... and enough reaction time to avoid vs lurker / mine. all good stuff. maybe not the most exciting patchnotes, but that's not the point! it is an urgent patch to remove the super broken stuff. that's what this feels like to me, some initial emergency patching before they introduce more experimental changes. I'm sure that it will be followed with a bigger patch in the future, one that cracks open the lategame and improves on some fundamental gameplay. I look forward to that, but it would have been completely out of place in this patch we're seeing now Word on the street is it’s not the confirmed last patch at least, I think what you’re saying makes sense. I mean the acquisition isn’t even through yet in terms of what that all means structurally, much less how it’ll impact Starcraft 2’s future. So as a placeholder of sorts it’s not too bad. Apart from the tip of the pyramid of the playerbase and competitive balance/enjoyment at the pro level I think it’s a great patch just in quality of life terms. This has been a bit understated rather a lot. I can’t begin to imagine how annoying battery cheeses are to play against. I’ve always felt DTs jumping and instagibbing things was just a wonky interaction that’s been retooled for a little more change to counter. I’m old, on semi- permanent hiatus rather infamously, mines that don’t basically insta-burrow, likewise Lurkers pop into the ground a little slower. Even by small degrees slowing down the pace a little is no bad thing | ||
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Ciaus_Dronu
South Africa1848 Posts
On March 13 2022 00:47 WombaT wrote: Word on the street is it’s not the confirmed last patch at least, I think what you’re saying makes sense. I mean the acquisition isn’t even through yet in terms of what that all means structurally, much less how it’ll impact Starcraft 2’s future. So as a placeholder of sorts it’s not too bad. Apart from the tip of the pyramid of the playerbase and competitive balance/enjoyment at the pro level I think it’s a great patch just in quality of life terms. This has been a bit understated rather a lot. I can’t begin to imagine how annoying battery cheeses are to play against. I’ve always felt DTs jumping and instagibbing things was just a wonky interaction that’s been retooled for a little more change to counter. I’m old, on semi- permanent hiatus rather infamously, mines that don’t basically insta-burrow, likewise Lurkers pop into the ground a little slower. Even by small degrees slowing down the pace a little is no bad thing Oh to see the contents of my own heart spelled out for me. You speak truth. Seeing these patch notes is the first time in years I've felt vaguely interested in playing ladder again. Just knowing battery cheeses and voidray openers are going to be easier to face makes me happy and curious to try playing again. The two burrow speed changes are also good overall (especially as someone who likes playing with ravagers and mutas a lot more than lurkers in ZvZ). | ||
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SHODAN
United Kingdom1144 Posts
On March 13 2022 00:47 WombaT wrote: Apart from the tip of the pyramid of the playerbase and competitive balance/enjoyment at the pro level I think it’s a great patch just in quality of life terms. This has been a bit understated rather a lot. makes sense to balance certain elements of the game around low / mid grandmaster skill levels. that's the sweet spot where you have a fairly large sample size and enough skill involved that the balancing remains consistent with peak pro level. isn't the title of "grandmaster" supposed to carry some weight? I don't know much about pro chess honestly, but my impression as a layman is that a grandmaster chess player will have mastered the opening moves and probably won't get steamrolled by the same aggressive opening over and over. I'd rather the game was balanced so that a low / mid grandmaster can reliably hold early-game rushes against a player of similar skill. the vast majority of games at this level should be decided in the mid / late game. if you fixate on the results at the very top of the pyramid, you perpetuate some pretty lop-sided gameplay that only a handful of uber elites can get to grips with. | ||
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WombaT
Northern Ireland26225 Posts
On March 13 2022 01:53 SHODAN wrote: makes sense to balance certain elements of the game around low / mid grandmaster skill levels. that's the sweet spot where you have a fairly large sample size and enough skill involved that the balancing remains consistent with peak pro level. isn't the title of "grandmaster" supposed to carry some weight? I don't know much about pro chess honestly, but my impression as a layman is that a grandmaster chess player will have mastered the opening moves and probably won't get steamrolled by the same aggressive opening over and over. I'd rather the game was balanced so that a low / mid grandmaster can reliably hold early-game rushes against a player of similar skill. the vast majority of games at this level should be decided in the mid / late game. if you fixate on the results at the very top of the pyramid, you perpetuate some pretty lop-sided gameplay that only a handful of uber elites can get to grips with. Aye 100% big lad, hope you’re keeping well btw son! Depends on the opener ofc. A naked proxy rax or a proper cannon rush can be frustrating as hell, but there’s a pretty hefty risk to doing so. Plus they’re (relatively) easily held if you do get that scout off. The two battery main augmented cheeses, of the PvZ cannon into immortal/prism and the PvT void version to me felt they tipped the scales a little too far, so I’m down with them being nerfed. Not just hard to hold, but really bloody frustrating to hold as that unit returns to full shields for the millionth time. I’m down for cheeky aggressive builds, but whatever my internal calculus on difficulty to scout vs difficulty of execution vs difficulty to hold even when not blindsided, those tipped into Protoss bullshit territory. There’s also the trend ever since WoL of making everything faster, with some pluses and minuses. I like that it’s a fast, mechanically demanding game, absolutely. I don’t think slowing it down even a little detracts from that necessarily, on my other point. It’s less punishing on us scrubs and the pros have a slightly higher margin of error to engage in counterplay with micro or to outplay their opponent strategically, tactically or positionally. | ||
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SHODAN
United Kingdom1144 Posts
On March 13 2022 02:16 WombaT wrote: Aye 100% big lad, hope you’re keeping well btw son! oye mucker, fuck's the craic wiyye. add me on MSN messenger vortexofpain@hotmail.com | ||
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Kitai
United States880 Posts
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Yoshi Kirishima
United States10366 Posts
On March 12 2022 09:19 washikie wrote: It’s a move in the right direction. I’m glad the game is getting a patch. I do agree with artosis take on this patch though which is what does this do to increase the likelihood of us getting Protoss and Terran champions in tournament's. The answer being it doesn’t do much at all. Zerg needs some adjustments not present in this patch imo. Or the other races need buffs to there mid game pressure. The nerfs will really help the stale meta in zvp which is badly needed. The battery and void nerf is a huge improvement for ladder, I’m hoping we get to a point where we at least have to face only 2 Protoss for evrey Terran and Zerg at high mmr. I don’t think the lurker change is enough to fix lurker issues. But it’s a start. They still are way to fast for a siege unit which makes them to strong on many maps. Having a siege unit as devistating as the lurker move so fast feels wrong. The queen change will also help a lot with zvp meta. I don’t think it will really impact the best zergs though. Since serral reynor ect don’t have to rely on timings to beat toss late game. Dt change is good. The blinking on planetary thing was a bit to strong and discouraged Terran from playing a more defensive game. Protoss has alot of extremely punishing mechanics in the late game that make playing tvp frustrating. It was a bit to much of an ask to be ready to repair any planetary instantly while also dodging 15+ disruptor shots and defending warp prism harass. I think toning this down is a good change for the health of the mu. It makes expanding in the late game more enticing for Terran. It opens up options other Than just trying to break toss on 4 bases before the game drags on to long without a big decisive fight. At high level the mu might favor Terran though. I feel like toss is missing something that helps them scale with skill as much as Terran and Zerg. Terran has the multitasking/micro infinite skill ceiling and zerg has the same for macro/ drones vs unit decisions and late game caster control. Toss need something harder about them but more rewarding for good players, not sure what you can do to fix them though. To many of the late game units kind of perform optimally just by being deathball a moved. Even harass like dts or zealots is kind of set and forget, the dts or zealots almost never get to retreat so there’s no point in watching them. right now I think most toss pros differentiate themselves by minimizing mistakes and selecting smart builds. This just does not seem to scale as hard a perfecting Zerg or Terran mechanics. Making toss to Ez at most levels of play but not as competitive at the highest level. Not saying toss does not take skill btw it absolutely does but I feel like it’s just off compared to other races. Maybe a return to ground toss pvz will help with this problem. Great points and insight. About lurker mobility, I totally agree it's too mobile. I think making adaptive talons burrow even a third of a second slower will help, as 1/3 of a second is enough for most units to move 1-1.5 units away. This will make it much less effective for lurkers to fucking chase down retreating armies while burrow/unburrowing (actually wtf lol every time I see this it's so hard to watch). I wanted to point out another possible way to nerf the Lurker's mobility without directly changing the move or burrow speed, is to make the unit slightly fatter. Right now it doesn't seem uncommon for players to mass a deathball of 25 Lurkers, or 2 squads of 15 lurkers each. If we make the units a little fatter, they will be a little less effective massed. LotV units like Disruptor, Liberator, Lurker, are supposed to be units that all: 1) Help hold positions and add more defensive tools to the game 2) Can be used to siege offensively in a methodical/slow way 3) Can also be used to harass relatively effectively, so the supply in these units results in a lot of versatility 4) Are somewhat immobile and need to be setup, so are not A-move units 5) Are effective in small numbers, and not something you want to mass, thus keeping enough supply available for the main army the players need to build (and encouraging players to still make their "normal" army units) Note that the Lurker is able to siege or heavily punish players by aggressively burrow moving, and can be kind of "A moved". Liberators are pretty mobile/punishing, but at least take a second to set up all their zones, and it takes time for it to transform, and they have blindspots still. Liberators are pretty strong when massed, but since their attacks are limited to the zones, you can't stack the DPS super effectively. Lurkers meanwhile can attack any direction and work pretty well massed. I suppose they might want to see how this Burrow change effects things first, then consider further changes if needed. Another change they could do is obviously reduce their move speed a little, or maybe only off creep or something. But I think making the lurker a little fatter would be the best at ever so slightly making massing them slightly less effective. Even the slightest size change could mean that a few Lurkers are no longer in range, which would effectively reduce their DPS by ~10-15% in some situations, especially offensive ones. When defending, their fatter size should not impact as much, since you have more time to position them defensively. The fatter size would mostly impact A-moving them offensively and clumping them up. | ||
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pandorasheep
73 Posts
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Obamarauder
697 Posts
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