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On March 21 2022 06:35 [Phantom] wrote:
Protoss dominates ladder because of the same reason cheese is so prevalent. Ladder is a a best of 1 and cheese is super strong in a best of one.
Same with Protoss. Different all ins, different missdirection, different cheeses, they are great at that, and thus it makes sense they do well on ladder.
However on a Best of 3, 5,7 it's when they start to suffer, or on longer torunaments because secrets are out. Other players are not caught offguard cause they see them play or they are playing multiple games.
Protoss might be the "mechanically easiest" but it's also the race by far the most punishing of mistakes. It's also the least versatile (slow, needs to move on clumps, slow tech switches, needs bandaids like shield batteries overcharge just to not die, hell even having to wall vs zerg is the biggest band aid balance possible).
All of this, combined makes Protoss good on ladder, but not as great on tournaments, and that's simply a design issue that will not be easily fixed just with balance.
Yes, well said indeed.
And that's why most recreational players don't fancy playing Zerg (the more passive and reactive race) on ladder. It's stressful and frustrating to deal with cheeses and coin-flips, almost every game. Very few players have the mechanics like Serral and Reynor to play optimally and deflect all-ins at ease.
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Could a thread named "Small Tweaks" be open ?
Here something i defend as "a small tweak":
NeoSteel Armor : In addition of actual bonus, the upgrade decrease building time construction from 29 to 20.
I would like to help players of struggling against creep spreading. I think 20 isn t "too committing" for a first tweak.
I know widow mines are able to do it, but i would like to see another way to stand ground, which requires less APM (unlike widow mines)
NB: Missile turrets has a build time equal to 18, it s also a good argument in favor of this tweak
In compensation, the planetary forteress could be weaker, for example, decrease armor from 3 to 2.
Dark templars damage could be balance like that from 45 to 35 + 10 (against armored or light)
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To combat creep spread, you want to let bunkers gain armour faster?
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one thing about the patch that i dont really get, is the relationship between lurker and widowmine burrow speeds. Why is the lurker burrow coupled to the WM and not the tank?
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On March 21 2022 22:07 InfCereal wrote:
The combat creep spread, you want to let bunkers gain armour faster?
I want Terran to settle bunkers in front of creep before end game.
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Northern Ireland26224 Posts
On March 22 2022 00:16 Vision_ wrote:Show nested quote +On March 21 2022 22:07 InfCereal wrote:
The combat creep spread, you want to let bunkers gain armour faster? I want Terran to settle bunkers in front of creep before end game.
For what particular reason?
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Creep spread is probably one of the more underrated ability in the Zerg's arsenal. It's depressing when Protoss and Terran forces moving out to clear out creep tumours in early game counts as such a critical step to stop Zerg from snowballing into full macro mode (as opposed to actually killing workers or units).
Has there ever been a meaningful nerf to creep spread?
Now, I don't think the current state of creep spread is hugely imbalanced. But I do feel it adds up to a long list of checklist to tick off in order to kill a good Zerg. And also, it makes Queens as a super cost-efficient unit.
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On March 22 2022 00:36 RKC wrote:
Creep spread is probably one of the more underrated ability in the Zerg's arsenal. It's depressing when Protoss and Terran forces moving out to clear out creep tumours in early game counts as such a critical step to stop Zerg from snowballing into full macro mode (as opposed to actually killing workers or units).
Has there ever been a meaningful nerf to creep spread?
Now, I don't think the current state of creep spread is hugely imbalanced. But I do feel it adds up to a long list of checklist to tick off in order to kill a good Zerg. And also, it makes Queens as a super cost-efficient unit.
Most zergs lack the mechanics/APM to spread it as well as the top pros but when the top pros do it there is no counterplay at all because it's costless to them and they can just respread an entire area as soon as it gets cleared as we've seen many times in TvZ.
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Northern Ireland26224 Posts
On March 22 2022 00:36 RKC wrote:
Creep spread is probably one of the more underrated ability in the Zerg's arsenal. It's depressing when Protoss and Terran forces moving out to clear out creep tumours in early game counts as such a critical step to stop Zerg from snowballing into full macro mode (as opposed to actually killing workers or units).
Has there ever been a meaningful nerf to creep spread?
Now, I don't think the current state of creep spread is hugely imbalanced. But I do feel it adds up to a long list of checklist to tick off in order to kill a good Zerg. And also, it makes Queens as a super cost-efficient unit.
Agreed, although I don’t think the potency of good creep spread is remotely underrated. I think most of us here consider it one of the strongest facets of what makes elite Zergs so hard to beat.
I don’t recall particular nerfs, there may have been minor tweaks but they don’t spring to mind.
I like the evolution of strategy games over time, part of what makes the genre fun. That said, I don’t think creep’s attributes were built with quite how good modern elite players are at spreading it in mind.
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On March 22 2022 00:28 WombaT wrote:Show nested quote +On March 22 2022 00:16 Vision_ wrote:On March 21 2022 22:07 InfCereal wrote:
The combat creep spread, you want to let bunkers gain armour faster? I want Terran to settle bunkers in front of creep before end game. For what particular reason?
There s multiple reasons :
- For beginners, Hold the front line to allow access to ressources later in the game.
- For professionnals, avoid the mandatory tactic of building multiples planetary forteress to settle asap in end game (...so a small and tought nerf to balance properly)
Depending on the distance, if the terran has settled a small advanced post, he must defend and take this position during 20 seconds while his SCV(s) are working. It helps player with lower APM to control nevralgic point. But to aim this goal, Terran player needs to cut the production of few SCV, and settle faster. SCV has also to comeback, and there s still an indirect economic loss due to the travel. In other terms, if this tactic (which consists to build bunkers to retard creep spread) works out, the price of a bunker could be increased a little bit.
Then if he wants to keep some marines alive while Zerg player is counter attacking, he has to put them inside the bunker(s), allowing him to slow the Zerg dominance, in a case of a Terran retreat. By now, a lot of marines (pros or beginners) can be catched off guard and the marines losses can directly stop the game.
As many of other untested modifications, the tweak reason is to make the game less frustrating and punishing.
Question : Zerg could probably lack of weapons (break the wall/line) if the tactic help Terran to win the economic war.
NB : Im still for a comeback of IT ;D
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The question is do bunkers outweigh just stutterstepping backwards against Banelings, I think theyd need a lot of additional strength for the answer to that question be yes
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On March 22 2022 01:05 WombaT wrote:
I don’t recall particular nerfs, there may have been minor tweaks but they don’t spring to mind.
there were a few nerfs/changes over the years, the latest ones were
- creep spreads slower
- recedes much faster after a tumor cleanup (it was quite noticeable after the patch)
- you can no longer cancel a creep tumor
(this hurts noobs like me, i sometimes fuck up with a misclick, but most pros don't give a fuck they just do rapidfire brrrrrt spread. with hellion harass in your face, it was unfair that they could cancel the tumor and respread it again later. now Z have to commit, and spread that tumor, and risk T sniping them asap)
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On March 22 2022 02:12 Zambrah wrote:
The question is do bunkers outweigh just stutterstepping backwards against Banelings, I think theyd need a lot of additional strength for the answer to that question be yes
Yes it s the problem, in a professionnal game. But as i said, if the bunker cost is increased, it can work as a first sink. Then, IT can be thrown with a longer range as foded canon... I know Banelings is the most viable solution against Terrans and Roachs would suffer a lot from this tactic, so maybe then something can be found in favor of Zerg play-style
Then, you can t be sure of that, so many times I see Zerg wasting tons of minerals/gas on PF.
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On March 11 2022 13:40 QOGQOG wrote:Show nested quote +On March 11 2022 10:55 Vindicare605 wrote:On March 11 2022 09:56 Wrathsc2 wrote:
good changes but they just needed to nerf z a little more. specifically the baneling imo I can't think of a single thing you could do to the Baneling that wouldn't be catastrophic for Zerg. It's such a one dimensional unit that nerfing any part of it would be very damaging indeed. The Queen on the other hand does so many things that you can nerf individual parts of her and she's still super strong and super important. But the Baneling? Any nerf to its hp, damage, or speed would be super damaging to it and Zerg REALLY relies on those units in every match up. So we'd first need to ask, what are we nerfing Banelings against? Terran? Protoss? Against Workers? Then how would we go about doing it that wouldn't impact the areas we aren't trying to nerf it. I just don't see anything they could do to it without it being massive. It's been nerfed before. Relatively recently, even, when Zerg was just killing Protoss every game by a-moving into their armies. I really disagree with this sort of extreme conservatism when that's left Zerg busted at a pro level for years. At some point, you have to try a big change.
Took a look at Baneling patch notes:
Weapon damage changed from 20 (+15 vs light) to 18 (+17 vs light).
Weapon damage changed from 18 (+17 vs light) to 16 (+19 vs light).
laughs in Ghost
Those patches took the amount of Bane hits to kill a Ghost from 5 to 5,55 (=6) and then 6.25 (=7)
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On March 24 2022 23:00 Coffeeling wrote:Show nested quote +On March 11 2022 13:40 QOGQOG wrote:On March 11 2022 10:55 Vindicare605 wrote:On March 11 2022 09:56 Wrathsc2 wrote:
good changes but they just needed to nerf z a little more. specifically the baneling imo I can't think of a single thing you could do to the Baneling that wouldn't be catastrophic for Zerg. It's such a one dimensional unit that nerfing any part of it would be very damaging indeed. The Queen on the other hand does so many things that you can nerf individual parts of her and she's still super strong and super important. But the Baneling? Any nerf to its hp, damage, or speed would be super damaging to it and Zerg REALLY relies on those units in every match up. So we'd first need to ask, what are we nerfing Banelings against? Terran? Protoss? Against Workers? Then how would we go about doing it that wouldn't impact the areas we aren't trying to nerf it. I just don't see anything they could do to it without it being massive. It's been nerfed before. Relatively recently, even, when Zerg was just killing Protoss every game by a-moving into their armies. I really disagree with this sort of extreme conservatism when that's left Zerg busted at a pro level for years. At some point, you have to try a big change. Took a look at Baneling patch notes: laughs in GhostThose patches took the amount of Bane hits to kill a Ghost from 5 to 5,55 (=6) and then 6.25 (=7)
Yes banelings units are the core of the problem... Maybe Banelings could switch to T2 unit, getting bigger, explode slighty stronger but with one supply (and with a good armor, maybe 2). This would be the simpliest way if you doesn t want to modify the overall balance.
If they do that, they have also to nerf a little bit the healing ability of Medivacs.
For Protoss, idk,.. I find Stalkers really bad in scaling but it s a problem because if they are too strong at the end of the game they could snowball easily against Terran which are not so fast on ground. but i m pretty sure everybody has his own opinion about stalkers weakness
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The nerfs to cheesy battery play is good, other than that this patch is not adressing the real issues, zergs will still queen walk protoss, protoss just got even weaker to queen rushes, that you didnt see this coming is beyond me. Already commented on it before Dark slapped Classic down with nydus queen.
Widowmine burrow time should have been nerfed on normal widowmines.
All in all in true Blizzard fashion, Protoss is the most struggling race at competitive level yet still ends up getting the heaviest nerfs of all 3 races. You couldn't make this shit up, been here for every big patch since game was released in 2010, you have basically been spitting in the face of pro gamers who play Protoss since release.
Here is a freebie for you if you really want the game to improve: Make Zerg viper unable to abduct massive units, the unit is so cost efficient it is disgusting and its impossible to trade with them, one feedback they get healed by a queen and back in business. Long term cost efficiency on Viper is beyond insanity and should have been nerfed years ago.
Reduce Lurker range and damage, force zergs to commit to a fight with lurkers, they should not be able to siege with them. Zerg has brood lords for that job.
That's 2 changes that will stop forcing Protoss to go air and dying to mass corrupter, and actaully give Protoss a chance on the ground, evaluate after some time if more nerfs are needed.
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On March 25 2022 04:26 Vision_ wrote:Show nested quote +On March 24 2022 23:00 Coffeeling wrote:On March 11 2022 13:40 QOGQOG wrote:On March 11 2022 10:55 Vindicare605 wrote:On March 11 2022 09:56 Wrathsc2 wrote:
good changes but they just needed to nerf z a little more. specifically the baneling imo I can't think of a single thing you could do to the Baneling that wouldn't be catastrophic for Zerg. It's such a one dimensional unit that nerfing any part of it would be very damaging indeed. The Queen on the other hand does so many things that you can nerf individual parts of her and she's still super strong and super important. But the Baneling? Any nerf to its hp, damage, or speed would be super damaging to it and Zerg REALLY relies on those units in every match up. So we'd first need to ask, what are we nerfing Banelings against? Terran? Protoss? Against Workers? Then how would we go about doing it that wouldn't impact the areas we aren't trying to nerf it. I just don't see anything they could do to it without it being massive. It's been nerfed before. Relatively recently, even, when Zerg was just killing Protoss every game by a-moving into their armies. I really disagree with this sort of extreme conservatism when that's left Zerg busted at a pro level for years. At some point, you have to try a big change. Took a look at Baneling patch notes: Weapon damage changed from 20 (+15 vs light) to 18 (+17 vs light).
Weapon damage changed from 18 (+17 vs light) to 16 (+19 vs light).
laughs in GhostThose patches took the amount of Bane hits to kill a Ghost from 5 to 5,55 (=6) and then 6.25 (=7) Yes banelings units are the core of the problem... Maybe Banelings could switch to T2 unit, getting bigger, explode slighty stronger but with one supply (and with a good armor, maybe 2). This would be the simpliest way if you doesn t want to modify the overall balance. If they do that, they have also to nerf a little bit the healing ability of Medivacs. For Protoss, idk,.. I find Stalkers really bad in scaling but it s a problem because if they are too strong at the end of the game they could snowball easily against Terran which are not so fast on ground. but i m pretty sure everybody has his own opinion about stalkers weakness
I dont think Stalkers being strong lategame is a problem vs Terran, and the Terran ground army is hardly slow between boosted medivacs and Stim.
Giving Protoss more Bio Ball-esque options would be nice, given its Protoss it wont be able to just be relied upon literally every game like a Bio Ball but an army thats decently mobile and not entirely reliant on slow expensive tech units and can skirmish and disengage would be nice.
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Zerg is objectively the most broken a race has ever been at the highest level, in BW or SC2. Look at 2012 BL infestor or 2010 Terran and you won't see such dominance, no race has ever won 10 WC titles in a row.
User was warned for this post.
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On March 22 2022 01:05 WombaT wrote:Show nested quote +On March 22 2022 00:36 RKC wrote:
Creep spread is probably one of the more underrated ability in the Zerg's arsenal. It's depressing when Protoss and Terran forces moving out to clear out creep tumours in early game counts as such a critical step to stop Zerg from snowballing into full macro mode (as opposed to actually killing workers or units).
Has there ever been a meaningful nerf to creep spread?
Now, I don't think the current state of creep spread is hugely imbalanced. But I do feel it adds up to a long list of checklist to tick off in order to kill a good Zerg. And also, it makes Queens as a super cost-efficient unit. Agreed, although I don’t think the potency of good creep spread is remotely underrated. I think most of us here consider it one of the strongest facets of what makes elite Zergs so hard to beat. I don’t recall particular nerfs, there may have been minor tweaks but they don’t spring to mind.
I like the evolution of strategy games over time, part of what makes the genre fun. That said, I don’t think creep’s attributes were built with quite how good modern elite players are at spreading it in mind.
i feel the same way about MMM... players have gotten so ridiculously good at marine micro since 2010 that the amount that you can get done with just 16 of them is silly..
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On March 11 2022 13:40 QOGQOG wrote:Show nested quote +On March 11 2022 10:55 Vindicare605 wrote:On March 11 2022 09:56 Wrathsc2 wrote:
good changes but they just needed to nerf z a little more. specifically the baneling imo I can't think of a single thing you could do to the Baneling that wouldn't be catastrophic for Zerg. It's such a one dimensional unit that nerfing any part of it would be very damaging indeed. The Queen on the other hand does so many things that you can nerf individual parts of her and she's still super strong and super important. But the Baneling? Any nerf to its hp, damage, or speed would be super damaging to it and Zerg REALLY relies on those units in every match up. So we'd first need to ask, what are we nerfing Banelings against? Terran? Protoss? Against Workers? Then how would we go about doing it that wouldn't impact the areas we aren't trying to nerf it. I just don't see anything they could do to it without it being massive. It's been nerfed before. Relatively recently, even, when Zerg was just killing Protoss every game by a-moving into their armies.I really disagree with this sort of extreme conservatism when that's left Zerg busted at a pro level for years. At some point, you have to try a big change.
What games are you watching?
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EPT
