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Jerubaal
United States7684 Posts
On March 17 2022 08:53 honorablemacroterran wrote: "Just counter the carrier build bro." If you can't blindly counter the composition with the longest build up time, it's either you or you're lying about how often you encounter them. | ||
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WombaT
Northern Ireland27403 Posts
On March 17 2022 18:32 Hider wrote: Please stop referencing GM level as low level play. To my knowledge there isn't a single protoss who has off-raced zerg or terran to 6k+ MMR while Demuslim reached it an afternoon using some protoss funssy. I understand GM level isn't pro level, but it's definitely an issue at the top 0.1%. Using the term "low-level" is deceiving and quite disingenuous It's fair to argue that protoss needs compensation buffs in other ways to win at pro level though. Although there is also another argument to be had that until protoss players have proved they can actually off-race another race to get within 500MMR of their main race (which pro terrans and zergs consistently are capable of), then they might in fact be worse players than their top terran and zerg counterparts. I would 100% agree that setting the bar for the entirety of balance/QoL tweaks at the Serral/Maru level is absurdly high. The ladder is almost tailor made for Protoss though. They have the most aggressive pushes/all/ins, and the easiest to disguise pushes, and bo1s that are frequently blind. A pro level or high level streamer has a sufficient skill level to learn a bunch of Protoss builds that hit in the 5-10 minute range and be quite successful doing that off the bat. Aside from different mechanics, if I want to play Zerg, sure there are aggressive builds, but largely I need to know what I’m up against, how to read my opponent, the natural transitions and timings I need to do, and well, learn how to play longer macro games. 500 MMR within your main race is still impressive, but it’s still a reasonable chasm of a gap in real terms. Protoss pros absolutely could (and maybe have) done this, but it’s essentially comparing learning some builds vs learning how to play the whole game and its various phases. I mean guys like Classic, Rain, Stats have been high level pros in both SC games, there’s no way they’re not capable of getting their T or Z into the 6k+ range The curve of Protoss is pretty neatly showcased in ways on ladder. It’s relatively easy to get to the low - mid 6ks, for reasons I touched on, but it does top off. Maru’s Protoss off-race when I last looked was closer to Trap, than any Protoss is to Serral’s absurd 7.4K or whatever it was. | ||
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Nebuchad
Switzerland12535 Posts
 It's possible that the protoss players are weaker than the rest, it doesn't break any of the laws of reality. The probability is lower than just the race being bad but it's possible. My dude up there argued that the fact that uThermal can do some dumb builds as protoss and get high on the ladder was evidence that protoss players are weak. It isn't, lol. That's a completely tangential point that makes zero sense, and the fact that someone wouldn't see that it is tangential shows that they started from the conclusion and were trying to prove the conclusion. | ||
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SharkStarcraft
Austria2275 Posts
Maybe when the GSL sees no protoss players advancing from the group stages people will be happy | ||
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IcemanAsi
Israel681 Posts
I haven't played in a long while but I remember that being key in some early pool holds. ANSWERD: Apparently the creep from the bottom hatch reaches the bottom of the ramp, I honestly didn't remember that. | ||
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Vision_
877 Posts
Stalkers are really good until mid game (kind of...), then they are countered by everything due to their low dps (which is the part of balance to get blink ability), even their upgrades are poor. Zealots are really strong of course but i m guessing they are really insane also against beginners while Marines or Zerglings can be considered as a cannon fodder. The blink ability kills the game because of the gap between pros and beginners, there s a ton of rework here, HeroMarine gave a try to Protoss recently and noticed the strength of stalkers at start, and even we know he s overdoing it (...) so we can assume blink isn t an ability for a basic unit. Then I would give a chance to 3 supply cost for stalkers and replace them upper in the tech tree (for example in the robotics units). They would be built for harassement or snipping, in this way i suggest to push their role further and open a place for a new basic unit. Something better but cheaper. Marines stimed dps = 14.64 (+2.44) Zerglings dps ====== 14.37 (+2.87) Stalkers dps ======= 9.73 (+0.75) ---- Bonus against armored = 3.74 (+0.75) Then if you consider only bonus damage, Stalkers seems balanced okish, but only against armored unit. Stalkers can t deal against their Zerg or Terran opposites Then assuming there is a place in a future patch, a small tweak on Stalkers will obviously ask changes for Mutalisks > Marines > Lings/Banes > Zealots > Hydralisks < Colossus < Vikings/Marauders > Stalkers..... Nice turn isn t it ? | ||
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InfCereal
Canada1759 Posts
You would compare zealots to zerglings and marines. Edit: Also I'm pretty sure you're using adrenal glands on that ling DPS Edit 2: I looked it up myself Marines: 9.8 Lings: 10 Zealots: 18.6 Stalkers: 9.7 Marauders: 9.3 Roach: 11.2 No upgrades of any kind ^ | ||
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meadbert
United States681 Posts
On March 18 2022 22:40 InfCereal wrote: You should be comparing marauders and roaches to stalkers. You would compare zealots to zerglings and marines. Edit: Also I'm pretty sure you're using adrenal glands on that ling DPS Edit 2: I looked it up myself Marines: 9.8 Lings: 10 Zealots: 18.6 Stalkers: 9.7 Marauders: 9.3 Roach: 11.2 No upgrades of any kind ^ An un-upgraded Zergling has more DPS than a Stalker? For those wondering about fully upgraded: Stalker 11.94 Zergling 22.60 | ||
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Vision_
877 Posts
On March 18 2022 22:40 InfCereal wrote: You should be comparing marauders and roaches to stalkers. You would compare zealots to zerglings and marines. Edit: Also I'm pretty sure you're using adrenal glands on that ling DPS Edit 2: I looked it up myself Marines: 9.8 Lings: 10 Zealots: 18.6 Stalkers: 9.7 Marauders: 9.3 Roach: 11.2 No upgrades of any kind ^ Compare Stalkers to marauders ? Do you really think it s usefull ? | ||
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Jerubaal
United States7684 Posts
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Zambrah
United States7393 Posts
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InfCereal
Canada1759 Posts
On March 19 2022 01:11 Zambrah wrote: Im not sure direct comparisons between units is going to be particularly successful given facts like speed, zerglings morphing in pairs of two, upgrades like blink, stim etc. Also health, armor, shields, etc. | ||
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meadbert
United States681 Posts
![[image loading]](https://i.imgur.com/V16F0Hw.png) Methinks the Protoss nerfs may have gone too far. | ||
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Branch.AUT
Austria853 Posts
Zerg is still inherently advantaged through the combination of best scouting with quickest production. At the highest level of play these zerg advantages haven't been overcome. Nothing is this patch changes that. I am tired of watching starcraft. | ||
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ThunderJunk
United States741 Posts
We got a queen nerf. We got a voidray nerf. We got a shield battery nerf. That is all objectively excellent news. It's enough to make me feel curious about Sc2 again, but not enough to make me want to buy a new computer to be able to play it myself again. I would need bigger changes. __ The best example of farther for Zerg would be the TLO suggestion of taking away creep tumor vision (or at least radically reducing it). For Protoss, reversing the build time advantages for warpgate and gateways. Terran good. Then rebalance around the big shift. | ||
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InfCereal
Canada1759 Posts
On March 19 2022 04:04 meadbert wrote: Methinks the Protoss nerfs may have gone too far. The only people in that picture are heromarine, serral, clem, and reynor lol | ||
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meadbert
United States681 Posts
On March 19 2022 07:51 InfCereal wrote: The only people in that picture are heromarine, serral, clem, and reynor lol What does Heromarine need with 5 accounts? | ||
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meadbert
United States681 Posts
Highest Protoss mmr on EU is currently Skillous, but he has not laddered on the new patch yet. The highest ranked Protoss on EU who has actually laddered the new patch looks to be GungFuBanda who only lost 90 mmr. Second highest is Neeb who has actually gained 64 mmr. Maybe 2022 will be the year of the Neeb comeback! | ||
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Moonerz
United States467 Posts
Makes que times much more bearable for streaming | ||
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honorablemacroterran
188 Posts
On March 19 2022 04:04 meadbert wrote: Methinks the Protoss nerfs may have gone too far. Pretty sure that: 1) That ladder ranking is wrong based on both SC2revealed and the in-game GM and contender ladders. 2) The real ladder rankings are basically the same as they were before the patch. I think you are looking for any excuse to complain. | ||
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