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On March 11 2022 20:52 SHODAN wrote:
bill gates ordered an emergency patch to fix the super broken stuff. DTs insta-gibbing command centers... void ray rushes... queen walks... and enough reaction time to avoid vs lurker / mine. all good stuff. maybe not the most exciting patchnotes, but that's not the point!
it is an urgent patch to remove the super broken stuff. that's what this feels like to me, some initial emergency patching before they introduce more experimental changes. I'm sure that it will be followed with a bigger patch in the future, one that cracks open the lategame and improves on some fundamental gameplay. I look forward to that, but it would have been completely out of place in this patch we're seeing now
I want to build up on this post because i totally agree. It is healthy for the players scene and also the first step in fixing tvp.
I think then what is next for following patches should be the goal to make matchups exciting to watch and play. Currently i think tvz ends up in the most epic games and there is constant interactions from start to finish so it does not get too boring. I think tvz was always one of the best matchups to watch and also players were able to show their true potential in this mathcup. And the goal should be to make tvp and pvz similary exiting and back and forward without naming specific things. I don't know if we can expect this much i am already happy that they started patching at all.
And as harstem told, the group is able to make "fast follow up changes" if they find out that it does not work out.
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The Shield Battery change irks me because it's clearly aimed at placating Masters league balance whiners.
At the professional level, offensive Shield Batteries are no more frequent nor no more successful than Bunker rushes, and we don't see offensive Bunkers being made more difficult to repair!
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Zurich15366 Posts
On March 15 2022 18:38 MJG wrote:
The Shield Battery change irks me because it's clearly aimed at placating Masters league balance whiners.
At the professional level, offensive Shield Batteries are no more frequent nor no more successful than Bunker rushes, and we don't see offensive Bunkers being made more difficult to repair!
Maybe, but if there is a change that will make the game better for everyone below pro level without hurting the pro level gameplay why not go for it?
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On March 15 2022 18:46 zatic wrote:Show nested quote +On March 15 2022 18:38 MJG wrote:
The Shield Battery change irks me because it's clearly aimed at placating Masters league balance whiners.
At the professional level, offensive Shield Batteries are no more frequent nor no more successful than Bunker rushes, and we don't see offensive Bunkers being made more difficult to repair! Maybe, but if there is a change that will make the game better for everyone below pro level without hurting the pro level gameplay why not go for it?
Because changing too many variables at once has a habit of causing unintended consequences. For example, Shield Batteries will be much weaker when used to create defensive bulwarks in split-map scenarios, despite that having nothing to do with the intended impact of the change. It will also be much weaker to place defensive Shield Batteries prior to placing a new expansion, despite this sometimes being preferable (especially at the natural in PvP!), and this also has nothing to do with the intended impact of the change.
To be honest, if low-level players don't like cheese being part of the game then that's too bad. Aggressive rushes have always been a part of RTS and they always should be. Unless a cheese is dominating the professional scene in an oppressive manner, they really shouldn't need looking at.
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On March 15 2022 19:16 MJG wrote:Show nested quote +On March 15 2022 18:46 zatic wrote:On March 15 2022 18:38 MJG wrote:
The Shield Battery change irks me because it's clearly aimed at placating Masters league balance whiners.
At the professional level, offensive Shield Batteries are no more frequent nor no more successful than Bunker rushes, and we don't see offensive Bunkers being made more difficult to repair! Maybe, but if there is a change that will make the game better for everyone below pro level without hurting the pro level gameplay why not go for it? Because changing too many variables at once has a habit of causing unintended consequences. For example, Shield Batteries will be much weaker when used to create defensive bulwarks in split-map scenarios, despite that having nothing to do with the intended impact of the change. It will also be much weaker to place defensive Shield Batteries prior to placing a new expansion, despite this sometimes being preferable, and this also has nothing to do with the intended impact of the change. To be honest, if low-level players don't like cheese being part of the game then that's too bad. Aggressive rushes have always been a part of RTS and they always should be. Unless a cheese is dominating the professional scene in an oppressive manner, they really shouldn't need looking at.
i dont know why, but i feel like MJG is our beloved canon rusher / proxy void-ray protoss ;-)
by a serious side: when pro players of all races welcome a nerf of the shield-battery, it cant be that wrong.
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Whether the concern is well-founded or not, I can understand being worried that high level ZvP lategame is still going to be Serral yoinking things til the protoss leaves.
I get that worry. I can see why someone might not like the patch as a result of it.
But dear Lord I cannot even fathom complaining about the shield battery change. That shit was the responsible for so many of the absolute worst early games. It was (and until the patch goes live, is) awful. A stain upon the otherwise shining polished beacon that SC2 is in the RTS landscape. And, to boot, is just brutally unfair to face at lower levels where it's common to lose a ravager / cyclone somewhat early on (especially if you have ping). Flying high health voidrays and teleporting immortals that autoheal faster than the total DPS you can put on them at that phase in game is, in no uncertain terms, bullshit. It should never have existed, and the fact that it's being addressed makes me feel so much warmer and happier about SC2.
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On March 16 2022 00:50 Ciaus_Dronu wrote:
Whether the concern is well-founded or not, I can understand being worried that high level ZvP lategame is still going to be Serral yoinking things til the protoss leaves.
I get that worry. I can see why someone might not like the patch as a result of it.
But dear Lord I cannot even fathom complaining about the shield battery change. That shit was the responsible for so many of the absolute worst early games. It was (and until the patch goes live, is) awful. A stain upon the otherwise shining polished beacon that SC2 is in the RTS landscape. And, to boot, is just brutally unfair to face at lower levels where it's common to lose a ravager / cyclone somewhat early on (especially if you have ping). Flying high health voidrays and teleporting immortals that autoheal faster than the total DPS you can put on them at that phase in game is, in no uncertain terms, bullshit. It should never have existed, and the fact that it's being addressed makes me feel so much warmer and happier about SC2.
Why is there no nerf to the Battlecruiser then?
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On March 16 2022 16:30 ejozl wrote:Show nested quote +On March 16 2022 00:50 Ciaus_Dronu wrote:
Whether the concern is well-founded or not, I can understand being worried that high level ZvP lategame is still going to be Serral yoinking things til the protoss leaves.
I get that worry. I can see why someone might not like the patch as a result of it.
But dear Lord I cannot even fathom complaining about the shield battery change. That shit was the responsible for so many of the absolute worst early games. It was (and until the patch goes live, is) awful. A stain upon the otherwise shining polished beacon that SC2 is in the RTS landscape. And, to boot, is just brutally unfair to face at lower levels where it's common to lose a ravager / cyclone somewhat early on (especially if you have ping). Flying high health voidrays and teleporting immortals that autoheal faster than the total DPS you can put on them at that phase in game is, in no uncertain terms, bullshit. It should never have existed, and the fact that it's being addressed makes me feel so much warmer and happier about SC2. Why is there no nerf to the Battlecruiser then?
yeah why not a nerf to BC'S then, it fulfills your complaints about both Voidrays and Immortals
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On March 15 2022 21:37 DarkGamer wrote:Show nested quote +On March 15 2022 19:16 MJG wrote:On March 15 2022 18:46 zatic wrote:On March 15 2022 18:38 MJG wrote:
The Shield Battery change irks me because it's clearly aimed at placating Masters league balance whiners.
At the professional level, offensive Shield Batteries are no more frequent nor no more successful than Bunker rushes, and we don't see offensive Bunkers being made more difficult to repair! Maybe, but if there is a change that will make the game better for everyone below pro level without hurting the pro level gameplay why not go for it? Because changing too many variables at once has a habit of causing unintended consequences. For example, Shield Batteries will be much weaker when used to create defensive bulwarks in split-map scenarios, despite that having nothing to do with the intended impact of the change. It will also be much weaker to place defensive Shield Batteries prior to placing a new expansion, despite this sometimes being preferable, and this also has nothing to do with the intended impact of the change. To be honest, if low-level players don't like cheese being part of the game then that's too bad. Aggressive rushes have always been a part of RTS and they always should be. Unless a cheese is dominating the professional scene in an oppressive manner, they really shouldn't need looking at. i dont know why, but i feel like MJG is our beloved canon rusher / proxy void-ray protoss ;-) by a serious side: when pro players of all races welcome a nerf of the shield-battery, it cant be that wrong.
It's not the personal impact of the change that bothers me. Even though I'm a big fan of Cannon rushes and proxy Void Rays, the Great Book of Protoss Bullshit has more than one page. I'll just do some other dumb bullshit instead. It's also not the content of the change that bothers me. This change actually achieves what it sets out to achieve, which is more than can be said for some of the other balance changes Blizzard have implemented in the past.
It's that the change is being made because low-level players whined for it that bothers me. Bunker rushes are more prevalent than Shield Battery rushes in professional games, and they're just as powerful as Shield Battery rushes in low-level games, but are Bunkers going to repair 50% slower if they're built on the "wrong" side of the map? They're not, and so I don't see why Shield Batteries should change either.
Anyway, it's pointless worrying about it now because the changes have already gone through.
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The changes are so good that I am almost contemplating playing some SC2 again. But then I remember that Carriers still exists.
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Northern Ireland27478 Posts
On March 16 2022 16:30 ejozl wrote:Show nested quote +On March 16 2022 00:50 Ciaus_Dronu wrote:
Whether the concern is well-founded or not, I can understand being worried that high level ZvP lategame is still going to be Serral yoinking things til the protoss leaves.
I get that worry. I can see why someone might not like the patch as a result of it.
But dear Lord I cannot even fathom complaining about the shield battery change. That shit was the responsible for so many of the absolute worst early games. It was (and until the patch goes live, is) awful. A stain upon the otherwise shining polished beacon that SC2 is in the RTS landscape. And, to boot, is just brutally unfair to face at lower levels where it's common to lose a ravager / cyclone somewhat early on (especially if you have ping). Flying high health voidrays and teleporting immortals that autoheal faster than the total DPS you can put on them at that phase in game is, in no uncertain terms, bullshit. It should never have existed, and the fact that it's being addressed makes me feel so much warmer and happier about SC2. Why is there no nerf to the Battlecruiser then?
It’s a reasonably strong opener that can transition into a whole different TvZ style.
It’s a bit silly granted but it’s a pressure opening that can move into macro games with Battlemech. You get even less mech if it’s toned down. It’s also not generally a ‘I will kill you now’ cheese opener, although can be. The top folks deflect it fine.
I’m fine with neutered battery cheeses, as Claus said there’s some ridiculous interactions like Immortals healing quicker than they’re being damaged. They don’t make for cool games to watch either, and from friends that play they are the most frustrating all-ins to play about precisely for the ‘I’m going to kill this thing!’ followed by ‘oh no it’s back to full HP.
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After watching Heromarines stream here from around 03:15 https://www.twitch.tv/videos/1426606818, I have to wonder if Blizzard even tested the Dark Templar blink change. It looks to me that someone made the suggestion and the blizzard intern thought it made sense and implemented it blindly into PTR without testing what the actual effect is
I think it will have effectively zero effect vs planetaries which was the main issue. Obviously it will be a nerf in unit vs unit combat but I never felt as if that was the main issue.
A more effective change might be to just specifically target reduced damage vs buildings.
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On March 16 2022 16:30 ejozl wrote:Show nested quote +On March 16 2022 00:50 Ciaus_Dronu wrote:
Whether the concern is well-founded or not, I can understand being worried that high level ZvP lategame is still going to be Serral yoinking things til the protoss leaves.
I get that worry. I can see why someone might not like the patch as a result of it.
But dear Lord I cannot even fathom complaining about the shield battery change. That shit was the responsible for so many of the absolute worst early games. It was (and until the patch goes live, is) awful. A stain upon the otherwise shining polished beacon that SC2 is in the RTS landscape. And, to boot, is just brutally unfair to face at lower levels where it's common to lose a ravager / cyclone somewhat early on (especially if you have ping). Flying high health voidrays and teleporting immortals that autoheal faster than the total DPS you can put on them at that phase in game is, in no uncertain terms, bullshit. It should never have existed, and the fact that it's being addressed makes me feel so much warmer and happier about SC2. Why is there no nerf to the Battlecruiser then?
Honestly BC's should never had had teleports. I think it makes banshee's somewhat obsolete as BC's almost does the same thing as well while having far more general utility.
However, currently it is a necessity to make mech works as it somewhat makes mech safe vs swarm hosts. If you remove swarm hosts from the game, BC teleport could also be removed.
I doubt we get blizzard to make any type of larger change though.
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On March 16 2022 18:41 MockHamill wrote:
The changes are so good that I am almost contemplating playing some SC2 again. But then I remember that Carriers still exists.
What I don't understand is, if these builds are ruining every game you play, why not counter those builds?
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On March 17 2022 08:30 Jerubaal wrote:Show nested quote +On March 16 2022 18:41 MockHamill wrote:
The changes are so good that I am almost contemplating playing some SC2 again. But then I remember that Carriers still exists. What I don't understand is, if these builds are ruining every game you play, why not counter those builds?
"Just counter the carrier build bro."
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On March 15 2022 18:38 MJG wrote:
The Shield Battery change irks me because it's clearly aimed at placating Masters league balance whiners.
At the professional level, offensive Shield Batteries are no more frequent nor no more successful than Bunker rushes, and we don't see offensive Bunkers being made more difficult to repair!
have you ever watched HAS play?
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On March 17 2022 09:35 washikie wrote:Show nested quote +On March 15 2022 18:38 MJG wrote:
The Shield Battery change irks me because it's clearly aimed at placating Masters league balance whiners.
At the professional level, offensive Shield Batteries are no more frequent nor no more successful than Bunker rushes, and we don't see offensive Bunkers being made more difficult to repair! have you ever watched HAS play?
Have you ever seen Has win a major tournament?
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On March 17 2022 09:35 washikie wrote:Show nested quote +On March 15 2022 18:38 MJG wrote:
The Shield Battery change irks me because it's clearly aimed at placating Masters league balance whiners.
At the professional level, offensive Shield Batteries are no more frequent nor no more successful than Bunker rushes, and we don't see offensive Bunkers being made more difficult to repair! have you ever watched HAS play?
I'm not really sure what your point is. I didn't say that we never see offensive Shield Batteries, only that they're no more frequent than Bunker rushes.
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On March 16 2022 18:02 MJG wrote:Show nested quote +On March 15 2022 21:37 DarkGamer wrote:On March 15 2022 19:16 MJG wrote:On March 15 2022 18:46 zatic wrote:On March 15 2022 18:38 MJG wrote:
The Shield Battery change irks me because it's clearly aimed at placating Masters league balance whiners.
At the professional level, offensive Shield Batteries are no more frequent nor no more successful than Bunker rushes, and we don't see offensive Bunkers being made more difficult to repair! Maybe, but if there is a change that will make the game better for everyone below pro level without hurting the pro level gameplay why not go for it? Because changing too many variables at once has a habit of causing unintended consequences. For example, Shield Batteries will be much weaker when used to create defensive bulwarks in split-map scenarios, despite that having nothing to do with the intended impact of the change. It will also be much weaker to place defensive Shield Batteries prior to placing a new expansion, despite this sometimes being preferable, and this also has nothing to do with the intended impact of the change. To be honest, if low-level players don't like cheese being part of the game then that's too bad. Aggressive rushes have always been a part of RTS and they always should be. Unless a cheese is dominating the professional scene in an oppressive manner, they really shouldn't need looking at. i dont know why, but i feel like MJG is our beloved canon rusher / proxy void-ray protoss ;-) by a serious side: when pro players of all races welcome a nerf of the shield-battery, it cant be that wrong. It's not the personal impact of the change that bothers me. Even though I'm a big fan of Cannon rushes and proxy Void Rays, the Great Book of Protoss Bullshit has more than one page. I'll just do some other dumb bullshit instead. It's also not the content of the change that bothers me. This change actually achieves what it sets out to achieve, which is more than can be said for some of the other balance changes Blizzard have implemented in the past. It's that the change is being made because low-level players whined for it that bothers me. Bunker rushes are more prevalent than Shield Battery rushes in professional games, and they're just as powerful as Shield Battery rushes in low-level games, but are Bunkers going to repair 50% slower if they're built on the "wrong" side of the map? They're not, and so I don't see why Shield Batteries should change either. Anyway, it's pointless worrying about it now because the changes have already gone through.
Please stop referencing GM level as low level play. To my knowledge there isn't a single protoss who has off-raced zerg or terran to 6k+ MMR while Demuslim reached it an afternoon using some protoss funssy.
I understand GM level isn't pro level, but it's definitely an issue at the top 0.1%. Using the term "low-level" is deceiving and quite disingenuous
It's fair to argue that protoss needs compensation buffs in other ways to win at pro level though. Although there is also another argument to be had that until protoss players have proved they can actually off-race another race to get within 500MMR of their main race (which pro terrans and zergs consistently are capable of), then they might in fact be worse players than their top terran and zerg counterparts.
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On March 17 2022 18:32 Hider wrote:Show nested quote +On March 16 2022 18:02 MJG wrote:On March 15 2022 21:37 DarkGamer wrote:On March 15 2022 19:16 MJG wrote:On March 15 2022 18:46 zatic wrote:On March 15 2022 18:38 MJG wrote:
The Shield Battery change irks me because it's clearly aimed at placating Masters league balance whiners.
At the professional level, offensive Shield Batteries are no more frequent nor no more successful than Bunker rushes, and we don't see offensive Bunkers being made more difficult to repair! Maybe, but if there is a change that will make the game better for everyone below pro level without hurting the pro level gameplay why not go for it? Because changing too many variables at once has a habit of causing unintended consequences. For example, Shield Batteries will be much weaker when used to create defensive bulwarks in split-map scenarios, despite that having nothing to do with the intended impact of the change. It will also be much weaker to place defensive Shield Batteries prior to placing a new expansion, despite this sometimes being preferable, and this also has nothing to do with the intended impact of the change. To be honest, if low-level players don't like cheese being part of the game then that's too bad. Aggressive rushes have always been a part of RTS and they always should be. Unless a cheese is dominating the professional scene in an oppressive manner, they really shouldn't need looking at. i dont know why, but i feel like MJG is our beloved canon rusher / proxy void-ray protoss ;-) by a serious side: when pro players of all races welcome a nerf of the shield-battery, it cant be that wrong. It's not the personal impact of the change that bothers me. Even though I'm a big fan of Cannon rushes and proxy Void Rays, the Great Book of Protoss Bullshit has more than one page. I'll just do some other dumb bullshit instead. It's also not the content of the change that bothers me. This change actually achieves what it sets out to achieve, which is more than can be said for some of the other balance changes Blizzard have implemented in the past. It's that the change is being made because low-level players whined for it that bothers me. Bunker rushes are more prevalent than Shield Battery rushes in professional games, and they're just as powerful as Shield Battery rushes in low-level games, but are Bunkers going to repair 50% slower if they're built on the "wrong" side of the map? They're not, and so I don't see why Shield Batteries should change either. Anyway, it's pointless worrying about it now because the changes have already gone through. Please stop referencing GM level as low level play. To my knowledge there isn't a single protoss who has off-raced zerg or terran to 6k+ MMR while Demuslim reached it an afternoon using some protoss funssy. I understand GM level isn't pro level, but it's definitely an issue at the top 0.1%. Using the term "low-level" is deceiving and quite disingenuous It's fair to argue that protoss needs compensation buffs in other ways to win at pro level though. Although there is also another argument to be had that until protoss players have proved they can actually off-race another race to get within 500MMR of their main race (which pro terrans and zergs consistently are capable of), then they might in fact be worse players than their top terran and zerg counterparts.
The whole world is against you
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