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On February 07 2022 18:22 deacon.frost wrote:Show nested quote +On February 07 2022 05:30 honorablemacroterran wrote:
Or maybe there's nothing fundamentally different between the Super Tournament and Code S except preparation time and the fact that Protoss wins Super Tournament but not Code S is because of either preparation time or random chance? In that regard, it's actually closer to the non-Code S premiers, though. I don't understand why Protoss think that Super Tournament is so fundamentally different from other premier tournaments that it shouldn't count as evidence of capability to win a premier tournament. Nobody says that Protoss cannot win premier tournaments, WCS NA is in that category  People say that the highest tier - nowadays the IEM and the Code S hasn't been won by Protoss for ages and that's weird considering everybody is saying Protoss is fine. IN a balanced game we should have other races winning the WC title not just zergs and especially the Code S considering it's more often. But yet here we are, they take just 2nd places, I wonder why. (Trap is kong, Zest not) Show nested quote +On February 07 2022 07:35 Charoisaur wrote:On February 07 2022 05:07 deacon.frost wrote:On February 07 2022 04:43 honorablemacroterran wrote:
Simply believing that Maru and Rogue are the favorites does not preclude Protoss from winning premier tournaments. Maybe you should spend your time supporting Protoss pros instead of telling people not to watch the game. Obviously Maru at least can lose to Protoss in a premier tournament as Zest proved in the Super Tournament.
To probably close to 2/3 of the rest of us who like Terran or Zerg, it sounds like you want to buff Protoss so heavily that the best players are no longer favorites to win tournaments just to make sure that Protoss has more victories. That sounds insane. When was the last time Protoss was a favorite to win a Code S or an IEM? We have 4-year streak of zergs winning the world championship (IEM/Blizzcon), we have how long exactly without a Protoss victor of the Code S? 4 years now? I dare to say that in the last 3 years there was NONE protoss favorite to win ANY of these. Especially after Maru dismantled both Stats and Zest in the Code S in two speedruns. The only tournamnets where Protoss are favorites are meme ones - GSL ST for some reason is Protoss favorite and WCS NA. Edit> In 4 years we have no other World Champion than Zerg and no other Code S champion than a Zerg or a Terran. So tell me, mighty TL user, why is that? Protoss players can win "lower" tournaments, so what keeps them from winning what most consider the top tournaments? And it's not just Trap. This period covers Parting(although...), Classic and Stats too edit2> WCS NA is a meme and Protoss being the champion for ST is a meme considering they're not champion favorites for anything else besides WCS NA. Trap was considered by most people to be the #1 favourite for last years Katowice as he was in insane form back then. But we all know how that ended... And I laughed myself to falling of the chair 
Are you laughing because of how hard he failed at that Katowice or because you don't think he was the favourite?
If it's the latter then your memory might be failing you and in hindsight he maybe shouldn't have been considered the favourite but back then he wasn't known as a tier 1 tournament choker yet and he was the player in the best form.
Before that Katowice casters considered him the favourite, players considered him the favourite (sometimes along with Serral or Rogue but everyone also mentioned Trap when asked)
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Czech Republic12129 Posts
On February 07 2022 18:46 Charoisaur wrote:Show nested quote +On February 07 2022 18:22 deacon.frost wrote:On February 07 2022 05:30 honorablemacroterran wrote:
Or maybe there's nothing fundamentally different between the Super Tournament and Code S except preparation time and the fact that Protoss wins Super Tournament but not Code S is because of either preparation time or random chance? In that regard, it's actually closer to the non-Code S premiers, though. I don't understand why Protoss think that Super Tournament is so fundamentally different from other premier tournaments that it shouldn't count as evidence of capability to win a premier tournament. Nobody says that Protoss cannot win premier tournaments, WCS NA is in that category People say that the highest tier - nowadays the IEM and the Code S hasn't been won by Protoss for ages and that's weird considering everybody is saying Protoss is fine. IN a balanced game we should have other races winning the WC title not just zergs and especially the Code S considering it's more often. But yet here we are, they take just 2nd places, I wonder why. (Trap is kong, Zest not) On February 07 2022 07:35 Charoisaur wrote:On February 07 2022 05:07 deacon.frost wrote:On February 07 2022 04:43 honorablemacroterran wrote:
Simply believing that Maru and Rogue are the favorites does not preclude Protoss from winning premier tournaments. Maybe you should spend your time supporting Protoss pros instead of telling people not to watch the game. Obviously Maru at least can lose to Protoss in a premier tournament as Zest proved in the Super Tournament.
To probably close to 2/3 of the rest of us who like Terran or Zerg, it sounds like you want to buff Protoss so heavily that the best players are no longer favorites to win tournaments just to make sure that Protoss has more victories. That sounds insane. When was the last time Protoss was a favorite to win a Code S or an IEM? We have 4-year streak of zergs winning the world championship (IEM/Blizzcon), we have how long exactly without a Protoss victor of the Code S? 4 years now? I dare to say that in the last 3 years there was NONE protoss favorite to win ANY of these. Especially after Maru dismantled both Stats and Zest in the Code S in two speedruns. The only tournamnets where Protoss are favorites are meme ones - GSL ST for some reason is Protoss favorite and WCS NA. Edit> In 4 years we have no other World Champion than Zerg and no other Code S champion than a Zerg or a Terran. So tell me, mighty TL user, why is that? Protoss players can win "lower" tournaments, so what keeps them from winning what most consider the top tournaments? And it's not just Trap. This period covers Parting(although...), Classic and Stats too edit2> WCS NA is a meme and Protoss being the champion for ST is a meme considering they're not champion favorites for anything else besides WCS NA. Trap was considered by most people to be the #1 favourite for last years Katowice as he was in insane form back then. But we all know how that ended... And I laughed myself to falling of the chair Are you laughing because of how hard he failed at that Katowice or because you don't think he was the favourite? If it's the latter then your memory might be failing you and in hindsight he maybe shouldn't have been considered the favourite but back then he wasn't known as a tier 1 tournament choker yet and he was the player in the best form. Before that Katowice casters considered him the favourite, players considered him the favourite (sometimes along with Serral or Rogue but everyone also mentioned Trap when asked)
Trap is a little bit better version of Clem. Everybody considers him being a favorite for almost everything while him not being able to win anything relevant.
As an example - Clem has never won an international tournament(in other words with Koreans in it). Yet he was among favorites even though he never delivered.
Trap was a favorite - sure, why not. But he NEVER won any of these high tier tournaments. A dark horse? Sure, why not. But a clear favorite? Sorry not sorry, it's not just about form but about the ability to deliver and Trap is missing this in the Code S and WC.
An older example can be Cure - every time we heard how Cure dominates the online competition and how he's among the favorites of the Code S. And every time he failed. That's why we had the online Cure and offline Cure (edit> I am aware that he finally delivered the Code S title after years of this)
And sure, I don't think players would say - hey, look ,Trap has one of the best forms possible, but his mind will fail him horribly and he won't win the IEM because of this. Who would have the balls to say this?
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there's a difference between never having won an international tournament at all and just not having won the highest tier of tournaments but tournaments with the same player pool. Also my point is that back then he wasn't known as a tier 1 tournament choker yet so it was expected he would perform as well as in the tier 2 tournaments he won
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On February 06 2022 06:16 Nebuchad wrote:Show nested quote +On February 06 2022 06:11 Pentarp wrote:On February 05 2022 23:03 Nebuchad wrote:On February 05 2022 13:52 Pentarp wrote:On February 05 2022 09:23 Nebuchad wrote:
I see we got some new analysts in here so my offer is still up, if anyone wants to bet 50$ to my 500$ that protoss is going to win less of the 10 next premier tournaments than the other two races, hit me up It's such a false premise. Recently, 2 Protoss made it to GSL ST RO4 and 1 won the championship. Winning grand finals is a smaller fraction of a a small sample size of population. It's the best of the best. Nerves also play a huge factor. Others will see "silly mistakes" that Dark made. But that shows how intense and volatile grand finals can be. Representation at RO4 is what matters. And Protoss does not struggle there. It's a false premise for what lol. People are in this thread pretending that they don't think protoss is getting trounced at the highest level, I offer them 10 to 1 that protoss wins the least amount of tournaments in the future and they refuse to take it. My premise is true: they don't really believe the shit they say. RO4 in GSL is the highest level. They are the top 4 players in the toughest SC2 tournament in the world. The premise that grand finals is indicative of balance, while turning a blind eye on RO4 and RO8 representation, is such a joke. I have made no comment regarding balance.
You've only whined incessantly about the performance"of Protoss at your arbitrary definition of "highest level" that excludes Top4 placement in GSLs.
If it's not about balance, what do you want to achieve from your posts?
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On February 08 2022 01:35 Pentarp wrote:Show nested quote +On February 06 2022 06:16 Nebuchad wrote:On February 06 2022 06:11 Pentarp wrote:On February 05 2022 23:03 Nebuchad wrote:On February 05 2022 13:52 Pentarp wrote:On February 05 2022 09:23 Nebuchad wrote:
I see we got some new analysts in here so my offer is still up, if anyone wants to bet 50$ to my 500$ that protoss is going to win less of the 10 next premier tournaments than the other two races, hit me up It's such a false premise. Recently, 2 Protoss made it to GSL ST RO4 and 1 won the championship. Winning grand finals is a smaller fraction of a a small sample size of population. It's the best of the best. Nerves also play a huge factor. Others will see "silly mistakes" that Dark made. But that shows how intense and volatile grand finals can be. Representation at RO4 is what matters. And Protoss does not struggle there. It's a false premise for what lol. People are in this thread pretending that they don't think protoss is getting trounced at the highest level, I offer them 10 to 1 that protoss wins the least amount of tournaments in the future and they refuse to take it. My premise is true: they don't really believe the shit they say. RO4 in GSL is the highest level. They are the top 4 players in the toughest SC2 tournament in the world. The premise that grand finals is indicative of balance, while turning a blind eye on RO4 and RO8 representation, is such a joke. I have made no comment regarding balance. You've only whined incessantly about the performance"of Protoss at your arbitrary definition of "highest level" that excludes Top4 placement in GSLs. If it's not about balance, what do you want to achieve from your posts?
I have this thing where I'm annoyed when people are wrong on the internet. I'd rather they wouldn't say things that are obviously untrue.
In this case, it is super obvious that protoss is doing poorly at the highest level. It is not obvious that this is due to balance, it could be for a number of reasons. But we're not even at that stage because half this thread pretends to see some other reality, presumably not because they're silly but more likely because they have ulterior motives.
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Look, guys, honorablemacro terran has already figured out what our level of analysis should be, and it's obviously GM (don't look at top 10, though, that would be rude plzkthxbye), Ro48 invitationals and Ro4 of the GSL. Any other level of analysis, be it statistical or design, are just made by whiny baby butts.
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On February 10 2022 08:25 Jerubaal wrote:
Look, guys, honorablemacro terran has already figured out what our level of analysis should be, and it's obviously GM (don't look at top 10, though, that would be rude plzkthxbye), Ro48 invitationals and Ro4 of the GSL. Any other level of analysis, be it statistical or design, are just made by whiny baby butts.
You sound like you want to balance the game off a sample of 10 players.
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On February 10 2022 08:34 honorablemacroterran wrote:Show nested quote +On February 10 2022 08:25 Jerubaal wrote:
Look, guys, honorablemacro terran has already figured out what our level of analysis should be, and it's obviously GM (don't look at top 10, though, that would be rude plzkthxbye), Ro48 invitationals and Ro4 of the GSL. Any other level of analysis, be it statistical or design, are just made by whiny baby butts.
You sound like you want to balance the game off a sample of 10 players.
Not that I don't think his post wasn't shameless crying but shouldn't this game be balanced around the very top and trickle down to us?
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On February 10 2022 08:42 jpg06051992 wrote:Show nested quote +On February 10 2022 08:34 honorablemacroterran wrote:On February 10 2022 08:25 Jerubaal wrote:
Look, guys, honorablemacro terran has already figured out what our level of analysis should be, and it's obviously GM (don't look at top 10, though, that would be rude plzkthxbye), Ro48 invitationals and Ro4 of the GSL. Any other level of analysis, be it statistical or design, are just made by whiny baby butts.
You sound like you want to balance the game off a sample of 10 players. Not that I don't think his post wasn't shameless crying but shouldn't this game be balanced around the very top and trickle down to us?
No because you are assuming the top 10 players in the world are all of equal skill which is a ridiculous assumption. I'd argue that there is more variance in skill the higher you go up, and small samples are very bad for figuring these things out. It's better to rely on a large sample size so you have something closer to a normal distribution.
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On February 10 2022 08:49 honorablemacroterran wrote:Show nested quote +On February 10 2022 08:42 jpg06051992 wrote:On February 10 2022 08:34 honorablemacroterran wrote:On February 10 2022 08:25 Jerubaal wrote:
Look, guys, honorablemacro terran has already figured out what our level of analysis should be, and it's obviously GM (don't look at top 10, though, that would be rude plzkthxbye), Ro48 invitationals and Ro4 of the GSL. Any other level of analysis, be it statistical or design, are just made by whiny baby butts.
You sound like you want to balance the game off a sample of 10 players. Not that I don't think his post wasn't shameless crying but shouldn't this game be balanced around the very top and trickle down to us? No because you are assuming the top 10 players in the world are all of equal skill which is a ridiculous assumption. I'd argue that there is more variance in skill the higher you go up, and small samples are very bad for figuring these things out. It's better to rely on a large sample size so you have something closer to a normal distribution.
I don't know, I mean yea a part of me wants to agree that maybe out of the top you have Rogue, Serral and Maru who really stand at the top top and regularly beat up on everyone else. Everyone else in the top 15 I think can all take a series off of each other on any given day, really it's whoever is in better form at the moment.
I don't really want the game balanced around lowbie level play, even if that represents the majority of the player base. I'm in Diamond, I am a lowbie I have no problem admitting that there shouldn't be balance patches around my skill level or even well into mid GM because we can always micro, scout, react and macro better.
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On February 10 2022 13:37 jpg06051992 wrote:Show nested quote +On February 10 2022 08:49 honorablemacroterran wrote:On February 10 2022 08:42 jpg06051992 wrote:On February 10 2022 08:34 honorablemacroterran wrote:On February 10 2022 08:25 Jerubaal wrote:
Look, guys, honorablemacro terran has already figured out what our level of analysis should be, and it's obviously GM (don't look at top 10, though, that would be rude plzkthxbye), Ro48 invitationals and Ro4 of the GSL. Any other level of analysis, be it statistical or design, are just made by whiny baby butts.
You sound like you want to balance the game off a sample of 10 players. Not that I don't think his post wasn't shameless crying but shouldn't this game be balanced around the very top and trickle down to us? No because you are assuming the top 10 players in the world are all of equal skill which is a ridiculous assumption. I'd argue that there is more variance in skill the higher you go up, and small samples are very bad for figuring these things out. It's better to rely on a large sample size so you have something closer to a normal distribution. I don't know, I mean yea a part of me wants to agree that maybe out of the top you have Rogue, Serral and Maru who really stand at the top top and regularly beat up on everyone else. Everyone else in the top 15 I think can all take a series off of each other on any given day, really it's whoever is in better form at the moment. I don't really want the game balanced around lowbie level play, even if that represents the majority of the player base. I'm in Diamond, I am a lowbie I have no problem admitting that there shouldn't be balance patches around my skill level or even well into mid GM because we can always micro, scout, react and macro better.
no one said to balance it off lowbie level though. In Brood War there is a problem where the final state of balance was based off of Flash who was the greatest player to ever play the game. Balancing Terran off of Maru would be ridiculous. It's basically forcing the best player to no longer be the favorite. If you balance it off of GM or the top 200 players worldwide you would have a large enough sample size, and not just forcing Maru to no longer be a favorite despite being the best player. If I were that guy who likes attributing sinister motives to people who disagree with him I might surmise that is exactly the outcome certain people want despite knowing he's the best player.
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On February 08 2022 04:49 Nebuchad wrote:Show nested quote +On February 08 2022 01:35 Pentarp wrote:On February 06 2022 06:16 Nebuchad wrote:On February 06 2022 06:11 Pentarp wrote:On February 05 2022 23:03 Nebuchad wrote:On February 05 2022 13:52 Pentarp wrote:On February 05 2022 09:23 Nebuchad wrote:
I see we got some new analysts in here so my offer is still up, if anyone wants to bet 50$ to my 500$ that protoss is going to win less of the 10 next premier tournaments than the other two races, hit me up It's such a false premise. Recently, 2 Protoss made it to GSL ST RO4 and 1 won the championship. Winning grand finals is a smaller fraction of a a small sample size of population. It's the best of the best. Nerves also play a huge factor. Others will see "silly mistakes" that Dark made. But that shows how intense and volatile grand finals can be. Representation at RO4 is what matters. And Protoss does not struggle there. It's a false premise for what lol. People are in this thread pretending that they don't think protoss is getting trounced at the highest level, I offer them 10 to 1 that protoss wins the least amount of tournaments in the future and they refuse to take it. My premise is true: they don't really believe the shit they say. RO4 in GSL is the highest level. They are the top 4 players in the toughest SC2 tournament in the world. The premise that grand finals is indicative of balance, while turning a blind eye on RO4 and RO8 representation, is such a joke. I have made no comment regarding balance. You've only whined incessantly about the performance"of Protoss at your arbitrary definition of "highest level" that excludes Top4 placement in GSLs. If it's not about balance, what do you want to achieve from your posts? I have this thing where I'm annoyed when people are wrong on the internet. I'd rather they wouldn't say things that are obviously untrue. In this case, it is super obvious that protoss is doing poorly at the highest level. It is not obvious that this is due to balance, it could be for a number of reasons. But we're not even at that stage because half this thread pretends to see some other reality, presumably not because they're silly but more likely because they have ulterior motives.
You don't contest that Protoss is well represented in RO4 in GSL.
You keep saying Protoss is "doing poorly at the highest level".
I think you're the one seeing some "other reality" where Top4 in the toughest SC2 tournament is not the highest level.
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The game should be balanced to make the competitive playing field as level as possible for anyone who plays this game for a living (i.e, full time pros).
As such, a reasonable floor for balance would be the players qualifying for mainline ESL tournaments (i.e the regionals, season finals, dreamhacks) and other major or premiere international events.
That said, the ceiling is important too, you can't balance solely around GSL winners, but you can certainly make qualitative assessments of what's going at the highest level to identify problems with both balance and design.
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On February 11 2022 03:42 Athenau wrote:
The game should be balanced to make the competitive playing field as level as possible for anyone who plays this game for a living (i.e, full time pros).
As such, a reasonable floor for balance would be the players qualifying for mainline ESL tournaments (i.e the regionals, season finals, dreamhacks) and other major or premiere international events.
That said, the ceiling is important too, you can't balance solely around GSL winners, but you can certainly make qualitative assessments of what's going at the highest level to identify problems with both balance and design.
This is probably the best wording of it, and I agree completely.
The game doesn't have to be just balanced around Serral and Maru and Zest, I think even the top 30 - 50 players that represent the highest level are still affected by game balance.
Yea Lambo isn't on Maru's level, but he's still a high level player no doubt. Same could be said for other mid tier pro's like Heromarine, Showtime, Ragnarok ect.
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The price you pay for a diverse race game is that it'll never be perfectly balanced even "near the top level of play". Furthermore, the level of "Near The Top Level of Play" is changing year to year... season to season.. and sometimes even month to month.
For me, its close enough to balanced. I'm enjoying the GSL this year.
Throughout the decades I've played competitive EA NHL '94 and Super Tecmo Bowl. The respective competitive communities know the games are not perfectly balanced; we play for the pure fun of it.
Seeing as the Olympics are on... guys relax and just play with the amateur spirit!
This is where competitive SC2 is headed...
EA NHL '94 competitive play continues to improve and evolve... and the events are a blast
These guys are having a tonne of fun. There is no reason why SC2 can't be just as much fun. We don't need big fancy expensive events to have fun.
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Northern Ireland26408 Posts
On February 11 2022 08:11 JimmyJRaynor wrote:The price you pay for a diverse race game is that it'll never be perfectly balanced even "near the top level of play". Furthermore, the level of "Near The Top Level of Play" is changing year to year... season to season.. and sometimes even month to month. For me, its close enough to balanced. I'm enjoying the GSL this year. Throughout the decades I've played competitive EA NHL '94 and Super Tecmo Bowl. The respective competitive communities know the games are not perfectly balanced; we play for the pure fun of it. Seeing as the Olympics are on... guys relax and just play with the amateur spirit! This is where competitive SC2 is headed... EA NHL '94 play continues to improve and evolve... and the events are a blastThese guys are having a tonne of fun. There is no reason why SC2 can't be just as much fun.
Yeah it’s close enough, least IMO.
I think it’s borderline impossible to have factions that stylistically and strategically play differently, cater to different strengths and be totally balanced.
It would be relatively trivial to do so with monotone factions with minor differences, but Starcraft doesn’t do that.
Design qualms aside, being as well balanced as it is is borderline miraculous.
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On February 10 2022 08:42 jpg06051992 wrote:Show nested quote +On February 10 2022 08:34 honorablemacroterran wrote:On February 10 2022 08:25 Jerubaal wrote:
Look, guys, honorablemacro terran has already figured out what our level of analysis should be, and it's obviously GM (don't look at top 10, though, that would be rude plzkthxbye), Ro48 invitationals and Ro4 of the GSL. Any other level of analysis, be it statistical or design, are just made by whiny baby butts.
You sound like you want to balance the game off a sample of 10 players. Not that I don't think his post wasn't shameless crying but shouldn't this game be balanced around the very top and trickle down to us?
You know how satire works? I am embellishing HIS argument. He has argued for the last page (and confirmed by his subsequent post) that he is the decider of what statistics are important. The idea that we have sets of stats that are allowable and subsets of those stats are not allowable is asinine. And, mind you, I'm not saying these aren't valuable stats, just that they aren't THE ONLY stats.
@honorablemacroterran
You seem to be arguing that we shouldn't look at them at all. It should at least be interesting even if the conclusion isn't one of UP/OPness. By your own arguments, isn't it just as reasonable of an analysis to say "GM statistics clearly say that Protoss players are better! Therefore, the lack of equal representation the the very top is indicative of bad design!". I mean, that's the logic of most workplace bias claims.
I've been edging towards this argument for a while, but it should be pretty clear by now that this needs to be a design question and not a 'balance' question. Numerical balance can be achieved by tweaking numbers. We could raise Terans winrate by improving the bunker. We could lower Zerg's by reducing Viper speed. These aren't fundamental, for the most part, to the overall race design.
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I agree that Protoss design is bad, but do you really think it can fundamentally change at this point? One of my first posts in this thread made this point, but I think most Protoss players actually don't want that at all because they like it for what it is.
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On November 14 2021 07:12 Woosixion wrote:
if you ask me, as the easiest race this is exactly what they deserve.. easier/less stressful wins against the vast majority of starcraft players but hitting a wall at the tippity top
what utter bs did i just read... every race should be able to win at the "tippity top". Everything else like "easier races shouldn't be able to win" at this lvl, is just mindblowing nonsense.
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EPT![[image loading]](https://i.imgur.com/lyqpXRs.png)
![[image loading]](https://i.imgur.com/8kPnhFj.png)
![[image loading]](https://i.imgur.com/O6orgXR.png)
