EPTThe future of Protoss. Is there any hope? - Page 38
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TLN00
7 Posts
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Jerubaal
United States7684 Posts
The complaints about queens, vipers and lurkers are quite specific and design oriented. The complaints about skytoss are "you know how skytoss is really good and it's basically the only thing that makes them relevant? Let's make it unusable. And then we'll hope that they figure something out. " | ||
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Beelzebub1
1004 Posts
On February 04 2022 12:47 Jerubaal wrote: @Beelzebub1 @angry_maia Hey, you brought up the single series, so I'm within my rights to analyze that one. Yes, the health of balance should be assessed on overall results and not the peculiarities of one series or tournament. But that includes the result of the tournament and not just an analysis of it. So don't try to reverse uno card me. :p The complaints about queens, vipers and lurkers are quite specific and design oriented. The complaints about skytoss are "you know how skytoss is really good and it's basically the only thing that makes them relevant? Let's make it unusable. And then we'll hope that they figure something out. " I'm not reversing anything, and I didn't say you weren't in your rights in anyway to analyze those. All I'm saying is that you guys have to be reasonable and digress at least here and there concerning the state of Protoss in ZvP. Every time a Zerg loses in ZvP can't just be chalked up to, "He threw" where every time a Protoss player loses in ZvP it's chalked up to Protoss being underpowered, that's all I meant. And 'm assuming the Skytoss nerf thing must be directed at Maia because I didn't say anything about nerfing Skytoss, at least not without significant concessions in other areas like a reverting of the Warp Prism and upgrade nerfs at the bare minimum, a nerf to the Lurker preferred. Trying to be civil with you man all I want is for there to be a balance patch lol I really don't care about the semantics, like they interest me but I'm not like frothing at the mouth on why or what is imbalanced in ZvP, there has already been quite alot of good points brought up both ends I think. | ||
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Jerubaal
United States7684 Posts
On February 04 2022 11:36 TLN00 wrote: lol, protosses pointing out possibly broken units in other races only to distract attention from fact that 60% of GMs are tosses while mostly at third of the APM of other races From my qwikmaffs scrolling through the b.net leaderboard, EU GM is 46% P and Asia (which is presumably mostly Korea) is 41%. | ||
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angry_maia
327 Posts
On February 04 2022 11:36 TLN00 wrote: lol, protosses pointing out possibly broken units in other races only to distract attention from fact that 60% of GMs are tosses while mostly at third of the APM of other races Literally no one denies that protoss is the easiest race to get Gm with. All of this balance discussion is regarding pro players. | ||
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honorablemacroterran
188 Posts
On February 04 2022 13:15 Jerubaal wrote: From my qwikmaffs scrolling through the b.net leaderboard, EU GM is 46% P and Asia (which is presumably mostly Korea) is 41%. When you respond to hyperbole with "Well, we are overrepresented by 8-13% in a 3 race game," it doesn't really sell the story that Protoss needs buffs. What I would be in favor of, and will never happen, is a reworking of Protoss to make it more challenging and APM intensive at lower levels and with a higher skill cap at the pro level, but I don't think most Protoss would like that either . I don't think there's any changes that will solve the problem you are describing, though, because Protoss was seemingly intentionally designed to be the way it is over many years, and almost everything about it would have to be changed. I think having an easier time at lower levels with also a lower skill cap at the pro level is just what Protoss players are signing onto. ![[image loading]](https://i.ibb.co/fSNgRf5/unknown.png) Also, all hope is not lost because rarely can a Terran or Zerg play perfectly to the extent that this conceptually lower skill cap actually is causing the Protoss player to lose an otherwise perfect game. Let me reiterate that Protoss have won 4 out of 5 of the most recent GSL ST. | ||
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angry_maia
327 Posts
On February 05 2022 00:55 honorablemacroterran wrote: When you respond to hyperbole with "Well, we are overrepresented by 8-13% in a 3 race game," it doesn't really sell the story that Protoss needs buffs. What I would be in favor of, and will never happen, is a reworking of Protoss to make it more challenging and APM intensive at lower levels and with a higher skill cap at the pro level, but I don't think most Protoss would like that either . I don't think there's any changes that will solve the problem you are describing, though, because Protoss was seemingly intentionally designed to be the way it is over many years, and almost everything about it would have to be changed. I think having an easier time at lower levels with also a lower skill cap at the pro level is just what Protoss players are signing onto. Also, all hope is not lost because rarely can a Terran or Zerg play perfectly to the extent that this conceptually lower skill cap actually is causing the Protoss player to lose an otherwise perfect game. Let me reiterate that Protoss have won 4 out of 5 of the most recent GSL ST. I think basically no protoss players are complaining because they feel like P is underpowered in their own games -- this is strictly a discussion of pro level play. The ideal change you are proposing IS a buff for pro level players. Finally, even at pro level play, I do'nt think PvT is actually unbalanced. Early games are incredibly complex on both sides and there is tons of room for strategy and micro. I think the real problem is PvZ which just suffers from the sky-toss meta that is partially brought on by lurkers, but also partially brought on by the void ray buffs. Imo, nerfing lurkers and ALSO nerfing void rays could really improve the match-up by brining back ground based protoss macro games in pvz. | ||
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Beelzebub1
1004 Posts
On February 05 2022 03:33 angry_maia wrote: I think basically no protoss players are complaining because they feel like P is underpowered in their own games -- this is strictly a discussion of pro level play. The ideal change you are proposing IS a buff for pro level players. Finally, even at pro level play, I do'nt think PvT is actually unbalanced. Early games are incredibly complex on both sides and there is tons of room for strategy and micro. I think the real problem is PvZ which just suffers from the sky-toss meta that is partially brought on by lurkers, but also partially brought on by the void ray buffs. Imo, nerfing lurkers and ALSO nerfing void rays could really improve the match-up by brining back ground based protoss macro games in pvz. Bingo, a Void Ray and Lurker nerf I think would just put the match up in a healthier place. If Protoss continues to struggle after that, revert the upgrade nerfs, if they still struggle after that, nerf the Warp Prism changes. I still think the imbalance needs to be tackled with very small changes, ZvP has kind of always been balanced on a knife's edge. | ||
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shannoordin
3 Posts
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Nebuchad
Switzerland12417 Posts
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honorablemacroterran
188 Posts
On February 05 2022 09:23 Nebuchad wrote: I see we got some new analysts in here so my offer is still up, if anyone wants to bet 50$ to my 500$ that protoss is going to win less of the 10 next premier tournaments than the other two races, hit me up Well, Zest just won the last one. Sorry for intruding on the permanent whine thread. | ||
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namatovu iren
1 Post
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Pentarp
227 Posts
On February 05 2022 09:23 Nebuchad wrote: I see we got some new analysts in here so my offer is still up, if anyone wants to bet 50$ to my 500$ that protoss is going to win less of the 10 next premier tournaments than the other two races, hit me up It's such a false premise. Recently, 2 Protoss made it to GSL ST RO4 and 1 won the championship. Winning grand finals is a smaller fraction of a a small sample size of population. It's the best of the best. Nerves also play a huge factor. Others will see "silly mistakes" that Dark made. But that shows how intense and volatile grand finals can be. Representation at RO4 is what matters. And Protoss does not struggle there. | ||
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Nebuchad
Switzerland12417 Posts
On February 05 2022 13:52 Pentarp wrote: It's such a false premise. Recently, 2 Protoss made it to GSL ST RO4 and 1 won the championship. Winning grand finals is a smaller fraction of a a small sample size of population. It's the best of the best. Nerves also play a huge factor. Others will see "silly mistakes" that Dark made. But that shows how intense and volatile grand finals can be. Representation at RO4 is what matters. And Protoss does not struggle there. It's a false premise for what lol. People are in this thread pretending that they don't think protoss is getting trounced at the highest level, I offer them 10 to 1 that protoss wins the least amount of tournaments in the future and they refuse to take it. My premise is true: they don't really believe the shit they say. | ||
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Beelzebub1
1004 Posts
On February 05 2022 23:03 Nebuchad wrote: It's a false premise for what lol. People are in this thread pretending that they don't think protoss is getting trounced at the highest level, I offer them 10 to 1 that protoss wins the least amount of tournaments in the future and they refuse to take it. My premise is true: they don't really believe the shit they say. Yea Protoss already doing semi poorly on paper in 2022, but really it's just because between Rogue, Serral and Maru the 1st place prizes are already spoken for. Good on Zest for taking two first places, I don't know if even a Warp Prism/upgrade buff will make up the disparity though I mean Serral and Maru just look practically unbeatable in Bo7 formats. | ||
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Pentarp
227 Posts
On February 05 2022 23:03 Nebuchad wrote: It's a false premise for what lol. People are in this thread pretending that they don't think protoss is getting trounced at the highest level, I offer them 10 to 1 that protoss wins the least amount of tournaments in the future and they refuse to take it. My premise is true: they don't really believe the shit they say. RO4 in GSL is the highest level. They are the top 4 players in the toughest SC2 tournament in the world. The premise that grand finals is indicative of balance, while turning a blind eye on RO4 and RO8 representation, is such a joke. | ||
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Nebuchad
Switzerland12417 Posts
On February 06 2022 06:11 Pentarp wrote: RO4 in GSL is the highest level. They are the top 4 players in the toughest SC2 tournament in the world. The premise that grand finals is indicative of balance, while turning a blind eye on RO4 and RO8 representation, is such a joke. I have made no comment regarding balance. | ||
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angry_maia
327 Posts
On February 05 2022 09:23 Nebuchad wrote: I see we got some new analysts in here so my offer is still up, if anyone wants to bet 50$ to my 500$ that protoss is going to win less of the 10 next premier tournaments than the other two races, hit me up I might actually be interested in this. However I'll need some details: 1. What constitutes a premier tournament? Does GSL Super tournament count? What about TSL. 2. What happens on ties: say P and T both won 3 tourneys and Z won 4. Would this be me winning or you? | ||
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Nebuchad
Switzerland12417 Posts
On February 06 2022 09:50 angry_maia wrote: I might actually be interested in this. However I'll need some details: 1. What constitutes a premier tournament? Does GSL Super tournament count? What about TSL. 2. What happens on ties: say P and T both won 3 tourneys and Z won 4. Would this be me winning or you? Could say something like Tournaments where 6 or more of the 10 top ranked players on Aligulac played (as I'm writing this, Maru Serral Reynor Dark Rogue Zest Clem Cure Solar Showtime) Not sure what we do on ties, maybe you win 250 instead of 500? One more issue is if it's true that there's a patch after Katowice, it could change the situation in a way that's problematic for either side of the bet. PM me maybe? | ||
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Jerubaal
United States7684 Posts
I feel like some of the people here have forgotten about very similar narratives in the past: That Terran players were just better and that's why they did so well. That Zerg was way harder and weaker and that's why the endless deluge of Zerg tears was justified. It's also insteresting that this conversation is a continuation of the same conversation from BW. + Show Spoiler + | ||
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