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On January 29 2022 06:02 Charoisaur wrote:Show nested quote +On January 29 2022 04:33 Jerubaal wrote:
I just realized that the Liberator is what Protoss has been begging for since WoL- an early game harass/pressure unit that doesn't then become completely useless.
Oracle? Phoenix? DT? okay Phoenix is arguable if it's still useful later - only in specific situations
I mean, it is kind of funny how, as you point out, phoenix loses its utility later in the game compared to corrupto. The viking is so good that it stops protoss from making colossus entirely. We'd see more of it if Protoss kept making colossus after the initial few.
I don't know if you can really classify DT as early game harass. It's an extremely cheesy all-in, at best. Oracles are paperweights. They have the minor, niche use of keeping Revelation on Corruptor/Viper armies.
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DT rushes should not be all-ins, according to pros. Oracles are very strong and Creator even said they are the only good thing about Protoss when he was asked what's good about Protoss.
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On January 30 2022 01:24 Jerubaal wrote:Show nested quote +On January 29 2022 06:02 Charoisaur wrote:On January 29 2022 04:33 Jerubaal wrote:
I just realized that the Liberator is what Protoss has been begging for since WoL- an early game harass/pressure unit that doesn't then become completely useless.
Oracle? Phoenix? DT? okay Phoenix is arguable if it's still useful later - only in specific situations I mean, it is kind of funny how, as you point out, phoenix loses its utility later in the game compared to corrupto. The viking is so good that it stops protoss from making colossus entirely. We'd see more of it if Protoss kept making colossus after the initial few. I don't know if you can really classify DT as early game harass. It's an extremely cheesy all-in, at best. Oracles are paperweights. They have the minor, niche use of keeping Revelation on Corruptor/Viper armies.
Yeah DT openings are not necessarily allins, especially not with the follow-up Archon harass.
I wouldn't call Revelation a "minor, niche" use as it's extremely good and important in the later game
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Mexico2170 Posts
The oracle is pretty nifty, I just wish it had more health, or maybe the cloack ability from HotS. The problem is that it comes too early and oracle rushes were too strong, so they can't make it have much health and they had to create a band-aid thing making the ability cost 25 energy during activation.
As for the Dts I'd say they are either a cheese/all in or a lategame harass option. If they don't deal damage the enemy just goes and kills you, even with archons. Maybe saying all in is wrong since you don't necessarily need to kill the opponent, but you cannot just kill 3 workers and call it succesful either. I think blink definitely helped them not be hard countered lategame (and maybe too strong in certain situations).
If I could change protoss some way is to make stargate more useful vs terran in non-cheese situations. Terran just straight up counters stargate tech if they decide to atack. Phoenix play relies on keeping the terran in it's base and cutting off reinforcements.
In general I just don't like Protoss over reliance on AoE and key units and feel that's why they suffer in pro play. Makes it the most punishing race.
You played great but you lost your Aoe? be prepred to just die in the next wave of atack, nothing you can do about it. I feel Terran and Zerg can afford more mistakes in general, Though obviously when you "complete the puzzle" as tasstosis say, Protoss is indeed very strong
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On January 30 2022 04:26 [Phantom] wrote:
The oracle is pretty nifty, I just wish it had more health, or maybe the cloack ability from HotS. The problem is that it comes too early and oracle rushes were too strong, so they can't make it have much health and they had to create a band-aid thing making the ability cost 25 energy during activation.
As for the Dts I'd say they are either a cheese/all in or a lategame harass option. If they don't deal damage the enemy just goes and kills you, even with archons. Maybe saying all in is wrong since you don't necessarily need to kill the opponent, but you cannot just kill 3 workers and call it succesful either. I think blink definitely helped them not be hard countered lategame (and maybe too strong in certain situations).
If I could change protoss some way is to make stargate more useful vs terran in non-cheese situations. Terran just straight up counters stargate tech if they decide to atack. Phoenix play relies on keeping the terran in it's base and cutting off reinforcements.
In general I just don't like Protoss over reliance on AoE and key units and feel that's why they suffer in pro play. Makes it the most punishing race.
You played great but you lost your Aoe? be prepred to just die in the next wave of atack, nothing you can do about it. I feel Terran and Zerg can afford more mistakes in general, Though obviously when you "complete the puzzle" as tasstosis say, Protoss is indeed very strong
I think it's safe to say, at this point, that Protoss is the easiest race to play below the top level, but definitely the hardest at the top.
At the lower levels Protoss just have so much flexibility and build variety, as well as powerful AoE that without god tier micro you just get melted.
Disruptors and Templar are insanely strong, until you're playing at 350 + apm and can reliably micro out of them, then they suck. Pro players are also experts at scouting and reads, so the odds of catching someone like Serral off guard with a timing is slim to none. He scouts, he counts gas, gateways, he instantly knows what he's doing.
Compare that to me, Mr. lowbie diamond league. I go in and scout, make the wrong read, get DESTROYED.
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On January 30 2022 07:02 Beelzebub1 wrote:Show nested quote +On January 30 2022 04:26 [Phantom] wrote:
The oracle is pretty nifty, I just wish it had more health, or maybe the cloack ability from HotS. The problem is that it comes too early and oracle rushes were too strong, so they can't make it have much health and they had to create a band-aid thing making the ability cost 25 energy during activation.
As for the Dts I'd say they are either a cheese/all in or a lategame harass option. If they don't deal damage the enemy just goes and kills you, even with archons. Maybe saying all in is wrong since you don't necessarily need to kill the opponent, but you cannot just kill 3 workers and call it succesful either. I think blink definitely helped them not be hard countered lategame (and maybe too strong in certain situations).
If I could change protoss some way is to make stargate more useful vs terran in non-cheese situations. Terran just straight up counters stargate tech if they decide to atack. Phoenix play relies on keeping the terran in it's base and cutting off reinforcements.
In general I just don't like Protoss over reliance on AoE and key units and feel that's why they suffer in pro play. Makes it the most punishing race.
You played great but you lost your Aoe? be prepred to just die in the next wave of atack, nothing you can do about it. I feel Terran and Zerg can afford more mistakes in general, Though obviously when you "complete the puzzle" as tasstosis say, Protoss is indeed very strong
I think it's safe to say, at this point, that Protoss is the easiest race to play below the top level, but definitely the hardest at the top. At the lower levels Protoss just have so much flexibility and build variety, as well as powerful AoE that without god tier micro you just get melted. Disruptors and Templar are insanely strong, until you're playing at 350 + apm and can reliably micro out of them, then they suck. Pro players are also experts at scouting and reads, so the odds of catching someone like Serral off guard with a timing is slim to none. He scouts, he counts gas, gateways, he instantly knows what he's doing. Compare that to me, Mr. lowbie diamond league. I go in and scout, make the wrong read, get DESTROYED.
With stargate styles i'd agree, i dont think the ground styles are that much easier (if talking pvz).
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On January 30 2022 07:07 darklycid wrote:Show nested quote +On January 30 2022 07:02 Beelzebub1 wrote:On January 30 2022 04:26 [Phantom] wrote:
The oracle is pretty nifty, I just wish it had more health, or maybe the cloack ability from HotS. The problem is that it comes too early and oracle rushes were too strong, so they can't make it have much health and they had to create a band-aid thing making the ability cost 25 energy during activation.
As for the Dts I'd say they are either a cheese/all in or a lategame harass option. If they don't deal damage the enemy just goes and kills you, even with archons. Maybe saying all in is wrong since you don't necessarily need to kill the opponent, but you cannot just kill 3 workers and call it succesful either. I think blink definitely helped them not be hard countered lategame (and maybe too strong in certain situations).
If I could change protoss some way is to make stargate more useful vs terran in non-cheese situations. Terran just straight up counters stargate tech if they decide to atack. Phoenix play relies on keeping the terran in it's base and cutting off reinforcements.
In general I just don't like Protoss over reliance on AoE and key units and feel that's why they suffer in pro play. Makes it the most punishing race.
You played great but you lost your Aoe? be prepred to just die in the next wave of atack, nothing you can do about it. I feel Terran and Zerg can afford more mistakes in general, Though obviously when you "complete the puzzle" as tasstosis say, Protoss is indeed very strong
I think it's safe to say, at this point, that Protoss is the easiest race to play below the top level, but definitely the hardest at the top. At the lower levels Protoss just have so much flexibility and build variety, as well as powerful AoE that without god tier micro you just get melted. Disruptors and Templar are insanely strong, until you're playing at 350 + apm and can reliably micro out of them, then they suck. Pro players are also experts at scouting and reads, so the odds of catching someone like Serral off guard with a timing is slim to none. He scouts, he counts gas, gateways, he instantly knows what he's doing. Compare that to me, Mr. lowbie diamond league. I go in and scout, make the wrong read, get DESTROYED. With stargate styles i'd agree, i dont think the ground styles are that much easier (if talking pvz).
No they really aren't much easier. Here's to hoping that Microsoft puts the AoE team on SC2 and we can get a few minor little balance tweaks.
I seriously think SC2 balance is like, 95% perfect. That 5% to me goes for things like what we are talking about, Zerg being a bit OP vs. Protoss.
Funnily enough, both of the last 2 real balance patches included nerfs to Zerg and buffs to Protoss :O Been so long since we've had a patch I didn't even realize.
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Czech Republic12129 Posts
On January 30 2022 07:02 Beelzebub1 wrote:Show nested quote +On January 30 2022 04:26 [Phantom] wrote:
The oracle is pretty nifty, I just wish it had more health, or maybe the cloack ability from HotS. The problem is that it comes too early and oracle rushes were too strong, so they can't make it have much health and they had to create a band-aid thing making the ability cost 25 energy during activation.
As for the Dts I'd say they are either a cheese/all in or a lategame harass option. If they don't deal damage the enemy just goes and kills you, even with archons. Maybe saying all in is wrong since you don't necessarily need to kill the opponent, but you cannot just kill 3 workers and call it succesful either. I think blink definitely helped them not be hard countered lategame (and maybe too strong in certain situations).
If I could change protoss some way is to make stargate more useful vs terran in non-cheese situations. Terran just straight up counters stargate tech if they decide to atack. Phoenix play relies on keeping the terran in it's base and cutting off reinforcements.
In general I just don't like Protoss over reliance on AoE and key units and feel that's why they suffer in pro play. Makes it the most punishing race.
You played great but you lost your Aoe? be prepred to just die in the next wave of atack, nothing you can do about it. I feel Terran and Zerg can afford more mistakes in general, Though obviously when you "complete the puzzle" as tasstosis say, Protoss is indeed very strong
I think it's safe to say, at this point, that Protoss is the easiest race to play below the top level, but definitely the hardest at the top. At the lower levels Protoss just have so much flexibility and build variety, as well as powerful AoE that without god tier micro you just get melted. Disruptors and Templar are insanely strong, until you're playing at 350 + apm and can reliably micro out of them, then they suck. Pro players are also experts at scouting and reads, so the odds of catching someone like Serral off guard with a timing is slim to none. He scouts, he counts gas, gateways, he instantly knows what he's doing. Compare that to me, Mr. lowbie diamond league. I go in and scout, make the wrong read, get DESTROYED.
Eh, IMO that's not exactly correct. Protoss is the best race for a BO1 style competition. That's why Protoss dominates the ladder, it's because the Big Book of Protoss Bullshit. as a random I would say the easiest race at diamond-ish level is zerg. The issue is if you play turtle and let Protoss get their air army, otherwise zerg rox. (my Protoss is like D2, Zerg P1/D3 and I don't wanna know how bad the Terran is xD)
Exactly the reason you described - you go in, you see, you can't tell. Because you don't have all the builds in your head and at the same time by being worse your opponents throw off every timing you may know from watching GM players 
Edit> TBF as I mained Protoss for years I don't have issues with the reading. And honestly, I think that Zerg is just Protoss on steroids in the lower leagues. You have observers around your bases(tumors) and if they start clearing them - you get a warning! You have flying spotter pylons. You can mass produce all your units and workers! You have shitload of hard to counter AoEs where you don't have to press too many buttons. FFS when I play a TvZ against bio i just make ling/bane and amove it and forget. And it's a race if I run out of larvae before the enemy runs out of tanks. You can't do this with Protoss. And instaburrow lurkers against observer based land armies xD That's like the joke of the year. Hey, so I just rushed hive, build 6 corruptors and 3 overseers and now you just die to this invisible spiny tickly thingy. Protoss players are like - oooh, lookie, the lurkers disappeared thus they have to be dead!
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On January 30 2022 07:02 Beelzebub1 wrote:
I think it's safe to say, at this point, that Protoss is the easiest race to play below the top level
Is it? I've seen low level players, and they absolutely cannot handle Planetary Fortresses. Completely lose their minds to them. Every time I've checked, the lower leagues have been swamped with Terrans.
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On January 30 2022 10:31 Fanatic-Templar wrote:Show nested quote +On January 30 2022 07:02 Beelzebub1 wrote:
I think it's safe to say, at this point, that Protoss is the easiest race to play below the top level Is it? I've seen low level players, and they absolutely cannot handle Planetary Fortresses. Completely lose their minds to them. Every time I've checked, the lower leagues have been swamped with Terrans.
I mean, "low level" is a pretty broad term in Starcraft 2. But yes, I would say that Protoss below the top level is at least, the least mechanically demanding of the races.
But it completely flips at the top level, Protoss have to macro and micro flawlessly to beat a similar skilled Zerg.
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Gold Zergs are a real thing.
On January 30 2022 01:27 honorablemacroterran wrote:
DT rushes should not be all-ins, according to pros. Oracles are very strong and Creator even said they are the only good thing about Protoss when he was asked what's good about Protoss.
Oracles are strong in their position, but not in the way I was describing.
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On January 30 2022 10:47 Beelzebub1 wrote:Show nested quote +On January 30 2022 10:31 Fanatic-Templar wrote:On January 30 2022 07:02 Beelzebub1 wrote:
I think it's safe to say, at this point, that Protoss is the easiest race to play below the top level Is it? I've seen low level players, and they absolutely cannot handle Planetary Fortresses. Completely lose their minds to them. Every time I've checked, the lower leagues have been swamped with Terrans. I mean, "low level" is a pretty broad term in Starcraft 2. But yes, I would say that Protoss below the top level is at least, the least mechanically demanding of the races. But it completely flips at the top level, Protoss have to macro and micro flawlessly to beat a similar skilled Zerg.
The problem with this argument surfaces when you realize people think DNS and Serral are equally skilled
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On January 31 2022 01:36 InfCereal wrote:Show nested quote +On January 30 2022 10:47 Beelzebub1 wrote:On January 30 2022 10:31 Fanatic-Templar wrote:On January 30 2022 07:02 Beelzebub1 wrote:
I think it's safe to say, at this point, that Protoss is the easiest race to play below the top level Is it? I've seen low level players, and they absolutely cannot handle Planetary Fortresses. Completely lose their minds to them. Every time I've checked, the lower leagues have been swamped with Terrans. I mean, "low level" is a pretty broad term in Starcraft 2. But yes, I would say that Protoss below the top level is at least, the least mechanically demanding of the races. But it completely flips at the top level, Protoss have to macro and micro flawlessly to beat a similar skilled Zerg. The problem with this argument surfaces when you realize people think DNS and Serral are equally skilled
I would be shocked if I saw someone say that lol
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Czech Republic12129 Posts
On January 30 2022 10:47 Beelzebub1 wrote:Show nested quote +On January 30 2022 10:31 Fanatic-Templar wrote:On January 30 2022 07:02 Beelzebub1 wrote:
I think it's safe to say, at this point, that Protoss is the easiest race to play below the top level Is it? I've seen low level players, and they absolutely cannot handle Planetary Fortresses. Completely lose their minds to them. Every time I've checked, the lower leagues have been swamped with Terrans. I mean, "low level" is a pretty broad term in Starcraft 2. But yes, I would say that Protoss below the top level is at least, the least mechanically demanding of the races. But it completely flips at the top level, Protoss have to macro and micro flawlessly to beat a similar skilled Zerg.
Bellow the top level means also bellow masters. And I dare to say that the least mechanically demanding is mech. These generalisations are kinda pointless, especially because bellow mid masters you can play anything and it's generally about "who does less mistakes and gets less supply blocked".
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i think it's fine to have protoss be this really easy to use race and execute few good strats with and easily get grandmaster.
but you can't have that keep working all the way up to the top cuz it would be ridiculously imbalanced.
it's really difficult to balance how easy protoss is to use and beat players with that are much better at multitask/micro/macro, at the top level,
even now it still happens. people like maxpax just use clever builds and make voidrays but have no real army control or micro, but get great results
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On January 31 2022 09:43 Comedy wrote:
i think it's fine to have protoss be this really easy to use race and execute few good strats with and easily get grandmaster.
but you can't have that keep working all the way up to the top cuz it would be ridiculously imbalanced.
it's really difficult to balance how easy protoss is to use and beat players with that are much better at multitask/micro/macro, at the top level,
even now it still happens. people like maxpax just use clever builds and make voidrays but have no real army control or micro, but get great results
First off, MaxPax definitely has good army control and micro, honestly I don't even see how that's debatable. No he's not as good as Serral but who is besides Maru?
Second, I do agree that Protoss is hard to balance. I think that in the lower levels, Protoss AoE is devastating when you lack the micro and APM to play against it, but at the top level it flips on it's own head and the reliance on AoE becomes a liability instead.
In a perfect world, I would nerf the Carrier and Void Ray, nerf Oracle damage, and give Adepts, Sentries and Stalkers a serious look over. Adepts are just trash, marketed as a core unit but fills the role that the Reaper does, ie obsolete after the first 5 minutes of the game. Stalkers scale horribly past the mid game and the Sentry just...well....is an old unit. Old units just suffer from power creep over time.
Look at HoTS, they have to keep giving Raynor raw stat and talent buffs every so often just because he's so old and vanilla that the new hero's just kind of innately outclass him.
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On January 31 2022 04:46 Beelzebub1 wrote:Show nested quote +On January 31 2022 01:36 InfCereal wrote:On January 30 2022 10:47 Beelzebub1 wrote:On January 30 2022 10:31 Fanatic-Templar wrote:On January 30 2022 07:02 Beelzebub1 wrote:
I think it's safe to say, at this point, that Protoss is the easiest race to play below the top level Is it? I've seen low level players, and they absolutely cannot handle Planetary Fortresses. Completely lose their minds to them. Every time I've checked, the lower leagues have been swamped with Terrans. I mean, "low level" is a pretty broad term in Starcraft 2. But yes, I would say that Protoss below the top level is at least, the least mechanically demanding of the races. But it completely flips at the top level, Protoss have to macro and micro flawlessly to beat a similar skilled Zerg. The problem with this argument surfaces when you realize people think DNS and Serral are equally skilled I would be shocked if I saw someone say that lol
I mean, they do say this. The flipside of this thread is the people saying that there are too many Protoss in GM and the early rounds of tournaments. If anybody makes a balance complaint based around skill levels in from Bronze to Masters, they get told to get better and rise above it. For some reason, though, the low GM players feel like they've crossed the threshold and now we do have to fix their problems. And I think that the additions that Protoss are asking for are for more micro/skill based strategies that wouldn't necessarily effect lower leagues.
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Dominican Republic626 Posts
i have q honest question, when SC2 gonna received another balance patch?
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Czech Republic12129 Posts
On January 31 2022 12:36 BonitiilloO wrote:
i have q honest question, when SC2 gonna received another balance patch?
According to the last Blizzard update about this - never. The exception being a huge imbalance like WoL BL/infestor
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On January 31 2022 18:31 deacon.frost wrote:Show nested quote +On January 31 2022 12:36 BonitiilloO wrote:
i have q honest question, when SC2 gonna received another balance patch? According to the last Blizzard update about this - never. The exception being a huge imbalance like WoL BL/infestor
Big sad.
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EPT
