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deacon.frost
Czech Republic12129 Posts
On October 20 2021 04:43 NeuralNet88 wrote: Beckett is still there. Hardwire also does not have the correction that Agaton made to the Reaper cliff. So basically the usual. | ||
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dbRic1203
Germany2655 Posts
On October 20 2021 04:39 NonY wrote: new maps on NA now. but it's 8 maps and only 3 vetoes so apparently this didnt happen (yet?) Blizzard doing what Blizzard does, I gues? | ||
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Hunta15
United States81 Posts
On October 19 2021 07:24 deacon.frost wrote: Yeah, until the next WC is Zerg. Again. Hey, zergs are dead, but somehow have the WC title streak for years now. But Zergs are dead. yup. Totally dead. Those two statistics are not even comparable to each other, yet here you are. How you came to the conclusion that 19% of GM being Zergs is okay because Zerg has won the WC many years in a row, some that are not even the current balance patch, while entirely ignoring literally every other tournament that happens is beyond me. | ||
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tigera6
3486 Posts
On October 20 2021 08:08 Hunta15 wrote: Those two statistics are not even comparable to each other, yet here you are. How you came to the conclusion that 19% of GM being Zergs is okay because Zerg has won the WC many years in a row, some that are not even the current balance patch, while entirely ignoring literally every other tournament that happens is beyond me. In case you didnt know, game balance are made around the top pro players, many people have said that. So if you are on the ladder rank and cant play like pro, tough luck, time to find a new game, dont expect Blizzard to change game balance for ladder player. | ||
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Mannekino
Netherlands15 Posts
On October 13 2021 19:32 BisuDagger wrote: 3v3 and 4v4 maps need more changes. Agreed, I'm happy there are _some_ changes, but they could switched up the entire pool. Even with older maps, it's been so long and they kept Nekodrec LE which is terrible. | ||
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WombaT
Northern Ireland26793 Posts
On October 20 2021 12:18 tigera6 wrote: In case you didnt know, game balance are made around the top pro players, many people have said that. So if you are on the ladder rank and cant play like pro, tough luck, time to find a new game, dont expect Blizzard to change game balance for ladder player. Not exclusively, although it is factored in. If you can find me Blizzard saying they don’t even factor the top amateur players into their balance and design decisions I’ll retract. Unless there’s a noticeably smaller faction population for other reasons such as ‘bugs are icky’ you really should start to see relative parity at a GM kind of level. In an asymmetric kind of game I think it’s totally fine to have big differentials at different bands, it’s hard to make interesting factions that are different while being equally as rewarding to everyone’s skillset. | ||
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deacon.frost
Czech Republic12129 Posts
On October 20 2021 08:08 Hunta15 wrote: Those two statistics are not even comparable to each other, yet here you are. How you came to the conclusion that 19% of GM being Zergs is okay because Zerg has won the WC many years in a row, some that are not even the current balance patch, while entirely ignoring literally every other tournament that happens is beyond me. It's a theoretical blabering anyway, there's no balance team and they cannot buff zergs anyway and cannot nerf rest either. Deal with it Edit> also claiming zerg is dead when they have won terrible terrible amount of big titles is just wrong | ||
NonY
8751 Posts
On October 21 2021 01:55 WombaT wrote: Not exclusively, although it is factored in. If you can find me Blizzard saying they don’t even factor the top amateur players into their balance and design decisions I’ll retract. Unless there’s a noticeably smaller faction population for other reasons such as ‘bugs are icky’ you really should start to see relative parity at a GM kind of level. In an asymmetric kind of game I think it’s totally fine to have big differentials at different bands, it’s hard to make interesting factions that are different while being equally as rewarding to everyone’s skillset. i'd guess that if any group has been left out of balance considerations, it's top amateur players. for the most part they are poor copies of pro players. their issues have solutions on display by the top players' of their race. lower ranked players are playing such a different game than what pros are doing is irrelevant. i believe they have been taken into consideration over the years but pro play has always had the priority. but i don't think GM populations have ever been this skewed for this long? it seems like a situation that previous balance teams would've addressed. but it's very tricky like i said because you've really got two sets of players playing the same build orders and strategies. one set is playing well and it's balanced. the other set is playing poorly and it's not. it's difficult to find changes that fix one without affecting the other | ||
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Snakestyle11
191 Posts
In case you didnt know, game balance are made around the top pro players, many people have said that. So if you are on the ladder rank and cant play like pro, tough luck, time to find a new game, dont expect Blizzard to change game balance for ladder player. Yea I mean we saw where that approach got us. If noone plays the game or watches it, pro scene cannot exist. If anything, balance should be based around the most active player base, and PRO PLAYERS SHOULD BE THE ONE ADAPTING. In GM and masters, Zerg was most populated race a few years ago, and protoss least popular. And it was like that for at least 6 years straight. Now they barely exist, last time i played i could play non stop for 6-7 hours and see one or two zerg. For protoss to become most popular race and zerg least popular race when it was other way around before, im gonna tell you; a lot of players had to quit for that to happen. And then once ladder is mostly PVP or TVT for hours, what you think happen? More players quit and its a snowball effect. I hate the old argument of balance around pro level only because its all that matters. Mate, there are like 30 players that are considered top pro, with no new comers ever, same players for years. What are the odds that out of those 30 players, the top 3 would be one of each race. What are the odds that there would be 10 of each race doing equally good? I see tournament wins being used as proof of balance or lack of balance... What are the odds of 2 players being in the final of a tournament, and being identically equal in term of skills, and in equal form that day? Starcraft 2 skill scales infinitely and some people seem to think pros are evenly matched. Mate, if you look carefully and have watched sc2 for years and arent too anti-zerg bias, you will understand that Serral is the player that makes the least amount of mistakes or mis-scouts in the history of starcraft. You basically NEVER see him make huge mistakes. Even Maru and Trap have their days where they do horrible misplays and mistakes, same for Dark and Rogue. Pro level is not balanced, and is NOT decided by balance. Balance only starts to have a big effect when you look at a population of thousands of players. | ||
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Charoisaur
Germany16063 Posts
On October 21 2021 13:54 Snakestyle11 wrote: Pro level is not balanced, and is NOT decided by balance. Balance only starts to have a big effect when you look at a population of thousands of players. Strongly disagree, Pro level is the only place where balance matters. Below that you can always improve to overcome balance, however the best player of a given race is already extremely close to the humanly attainable skill level so there really isn't much room to improve and balance starts to play a role. Also very difficult to compare players like that as Zerg objectively has the best scouting tools in the game so obviously the best macro Zerg is the player with the least mis-scouts. There is no way to say Serral or Maru are objectively better players than Trap | ||
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Charoisaur
Germany16063 Posts
On October 19 2021 21:54 deacon.frost wrote: Blizzcon WC titles: 2017 -> Rogue 2018 -> Serral 2019 -> Dark IEM WC titles: 2017 -> TY (and since then Zergs rule the World Championship) 2018 -> Rogue 2019 -> soO 2020 -> Rogue 2021 -> Reynor Many people call me a Serral hater. So I am obviously wrong as you can see from this long list which mentions Serral like 3 times. In reality he was in 1 final of the 7 finals. (edit> zerg won finals, otherwise we can enlarge the selection to anger them fanboys) Didn't check them in the game yet but from the preview pictures it looks like there are plenty chokepoints, should be Terran favored, no? But I didn't give it muhc tthought as I don't watch the SC2 anymore. I guess the Serral GOAT claims then make sense when his fans apparently think all those tournaments have been won by Serral. I understand it now | ||
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HolydaKing
21254 Posts
But I still value Mvp a lot, he was such a monster when he was competing.. as was MC. | ||
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BronzeKnee
United States5219 Posts
On October 21 2021 20:15 HolydaKing wrote: All the GOAT talk is silly anyway, hard to compare past and current SC2. If anything Maru is GOAT since he's been relevant for a long time and won many tournaments. Serral is imo the strongest player of the last 3 years, but that's not GOAT material since Maru was also the 2nd best in that time frame in my eyes, some may say even the best, but I don't think so. But I still value Mvp a lot, he was such a monster when he was competing.. as was MC. MVP is the goat. He was the best in a time when the game was so unpredictable. What Nestea did was also really impressive. | ||
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tigera6
3486 Posts
On October 21 2021 13:54 Snakestyle11 wrote: Yea I mean we saw where that approach got us. If noone plays the game or watches it, pro scene cannot exist. If anything, balance should be based around the most active player base, and PRO PLAYERS SHOULD BE THE ONE ADAPTING. In GM and masters, Zerg was most populated race a few years ago, and protoss least popular. And it was like that for at least 6 years straight. Now they barely exist, last time i played i could play non stop for 6-7 hours and see one or two zerg. For protoss to become most popular race and zerg least popular race when it was other way around before, im gonna tell you; a lot of players had to quit for that to happen. And then once ladder is mostly PVP or TVT for hours, what you think happen? More players quit and its a snowball effect. I hate the old argument of balance around pro level only because its all that matters. Mate, there are like 30 players that are considered top pro, with no new comers ever, same players for years. What are the odds that out of those 30 players, the top 3 would be one of each race. What are the odds that there would be 10 of each race doing equally good? I see tournament wins being used as proof of balance or lack of balance... What are the odds of 2 players being in the final of a tournament, and being identically equal in term of skills, and in equal form that day? Starcraft 2 skill scales infinitely and some people seem to think pros are evenly matched. Mate, if you look carefully and have watched sc2 for years and arent too anti-zerg bias, you will understand that Serral is the player that makes the least amount of mistakes or mis-scouts in the history of starcraft. You basically NEVER see him make huge mistakes. Even Maru and Trap have their days where they do horrible misplays and mistakes, same for Dark and Rogue. Pro level is not balanced, and is NOT decided by balance. Balance only starts to have a big effect when you look at a population of thousands of players. I am not trying to protect the way they treat the Game Balance, I am just stating the way it is with SC2 and Blizzard. and its futile to make a fuss about it now when it has been that way for almost a decade. Until recently, Serral usually play the most "standard" gameplay but with extra speed, planning, scouting and decision making, but that still doesnt win him as many world title as you thought he could. Rogue played the most extreme way between "too aggro" and "too greedy" while playing standard at some games as well. But he has mixed it so well that it look like he would just crush people left and right when things going well for him. I think Serral style is for stability, but Rogue style is suited for winning tournament imo. In general, I wished SC2 could follow the AOE2 approach where they make game balance change every 2 months or so, and actually base on ranked game ladded match, not just pro level. But Blizzard doesnt do things like that, and they probably dont even care at this point given the personnel changes. | ||
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deacon.frost
Czech Republic12129 Posts
On October 21 2021 06:18 NonY wrote: i'd guess that if any group has been left out of balance considerations, it's top amateur players. for the most part they are poor copies of pro players. their issues have solutions on display by the top players' of their race. lower ranked players are playing such a different game than what pros are doing is irrelevant. i believe they have been taken into consideration over the years but pro play has always had the priority. but i don't think GM populations have ever been this skewed for this long? it seems like a situation that previous balance teams would've addressed. but it's very tricky like i said because you've really got two sets of players playing the same build orders and strategies. one set is playing well and it's balanced. the other set is playing poorly and it's not. it's difficult to find changes that fix one without affecting the other Honestly, I believe the Swarmhost patch back in HOTS was based on the ladder and nothing else. Proplayers already adapted and these games generally had great viewership. IT was mostly issue of the ladder where "park and aim" approach in lower leagues was way too easy  Also it is tricky and it would require a bigger tweaking with most probably post-tweaking. And I doubt Blizzard will break their promise to not touch the game now. | ||
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Spinoza
667 Posts
Hope to see more maps like this in the future. | ||
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washikie
United States752 Posts
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Spinoza
667 Posts
Hopefully more map makers take heed and avoid the distracting elements such as: floating sharks, units that ascend when they are killed (why the f**k?) lava lakes (try finding a prism or medevac over it) or moving doodahs that blink and what not. Just because you can add them does not mean that you should. Keep those things to a minimum on a map (or remove them entirely) and game play improves subjectively for spectators. Hats of to "Skypirinha1" who designed Berlingrad. Thank you sir! Just my thoughts but I'd like to hear what other people think. [edit] Here is another way to put it: I am there for the game, not the spectacular scenery. | ||
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WombaT
Northern Ireland26793 Posts
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Harry3
3 Posts
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