EPTand not that master league is super relevant, but even there zerg is the least represented race.
zerg is dead.
Blizzard announce new map pool, changing Oct 19 - Page 3
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freelifeffs
97 Posts
and not that master league is super relevant, but even there zerg is the least represented race. zerg is dead. | ||
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jpg06051992
United States580 Posts
On October 15 2021 06:56 freelifeffs wrote: it is so insane to me that people even talk about potentially nerfing zerg when zerg makes up only 19% of the global gm population currently. 19%! that is the lowest a race has ever been since release of sc2. protoss is at 41% btw and terran at 39%. just nuts. and not that master league is super relevant, but even there zerg is the least represented race. zerg is dead. That's because below the pro level, Protoss is easier then the other two races. And those statistics imo don't support the Lurker not getting looked at, Aligulac has the balance pretty good right now except for PvZ in which Zerg looks a bit weak at the moment, but balance rates shift alot in that match up. | ||
[Phantom]
Mexico2170 Posts
On October 15 2021 06:56 freelifeffs wrote: it is so insane to me that people even talk about potentially nerfing zerg when zerg makes up only 19% of the global gm population currently. 19%! that is the lowest a race has ever been since release of sc2. protoss is at 41% btw and terran at 39%. just nuts. and not that master league is super relevant, but even there zerg is the least represented race. zerg is dead. That's when you start running into problems with balance. Pro play? Protoss don't do super well, Zerg and Terran do ok? Well not sure about winrate but there are plenty of Protoss. There's also the problem that while Terran is "balanced" and does OK in pro play, it's in my opinion the hardest race to play from gold upwards. Meaning that a Terran GM player is probably mechanically much more skilled then the equivalent in the other races, is that ok? Also how will one nerf impact a game? I agree sky toss is strong if you're able to turtle, but everything else sucks in pvz. Right now balance is ok. But it's hanging by a thread and if you change something you need to change a few things to get it back to an stable place. | ||
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freelifeffs
97 Posts
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dbRic1203
Germany2655 Posts
On October 15 2021 08:21 [Phantom] wrote: That's when you start running into problems with balance. Pro play? Protoss don't do super well, Zerg and Terran don't ok. Gm? Well not sure about Winrate but there are plenty of Protoss. There's also the fact that while Terran is "balanced" and does OK in pro play, its the hardest race to play from gold upwards. Meaning that a Terran GM player is probably mechanically much more skilled then the equivalent in the other races, is that ok? Also how will one nerf impact a game? I agree sky toss is strong if you're able to turtle, but everything else sucks in pvz. Right now balance is ok. But it's hanging by a thread and if you change something you need to change a few things to get it back to an stable place. This is your opinion, but you state it as fact. Thats a big Problem in todays day and age where so many people diguise their opinion as facts and their misinformation and sometimes Deadly conspiracy Theories as opinion, that should be protected by freedom of speech. Long story short, I would like to report you for writing that, because I think it doesn t belong here. But I can t. | ||
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Apom
France656 Posts
On October 13 2021 19:06 mythikdawn wrote: Kind of sad that they didn't opt to add any of the new four player maps to the 1v1 pool but I won't look a gift horse in the mouth; very happy to have new maps. Well let's be honest, the "unusual spawns" maps that made it to the final selection were not that good. For sure they were not as good as the standard 1v1 maps. So it is logical that they are not added to the ladder / ESL pool. I believe some of the maps that were *not* selected would have been interesting additions, but it is also logical that the poeple in charge of the map pools would not take risks on maps that were never seen in a real context (map pool tournament). | ||
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Vision_
877 Posts
On October 15 2021 08:21 [Phantom] wrote: That's when you start running into problems with balance. Pro play? Protoss don't do super well, Zerg and Terran don't ok. Gm? Well not sure about Winrate but there are plenty of Protoss. There's also the fact that while Terran is "balanced" and does OK in pro play, its the hardest race to play from gold upwards. Meaning that a Terran GM player is probably mechanically much more skilled then the equivalent in the other races, is that ok? Also how will one nerf impact a game? I agree sky toss is strong if you're able to turtle, but everything else sucks in pvz. Right now balance is ok. But it's hanging by a thread and if you change something you need to change a few things to get it back to an stable place. I think everybody agree here. If community will do the patch, this community has to check the game with a lower speed (not very fast but with fast speed of the game). Opening this kind of tourneys between pros will provide a tons of feedbacks, open a new persepective which can be analyze taking account the master level of hardcore gamers. As Blizzard won t probably do the patch, their only good choice is to let the community decide or abandon sc2. Then if community starts a patch, it must not be done halfway, it must be in a place between BW and good ideas from SC2.. | ||
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IMSupervisor
Australia138 Posts
On October 15 2021 16:53 dbRic1203 wrote: This is your opinion, but you state it as fact. Thats a big Problem in todays day and age where so many people diguise their opinion as facts and their misinformation and sometimes Deadly conspiracy Theories as opinion, that should be protected by freedom of speech. Long story short, I would like to report you for writing that, because I think it doesn t belong here. But I can t. Another big problem happening today is the need to silence opinions we don't like instead of being able to talk openly about things we disagree on... | ||
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Vision_
877 Posts
On October 15 2021 16:53 dbRic1203 wrote: This is your opinion, but you state it as fact. Thats a big Problem in todays day and age where so many people diguise their opinion as facts and their misinformation and sometimes Deadly conspiracy Theories as opinion, that should be protected by freedom of speech. Long story short, I would like to report you for writing that, because I think it doesn t belong here. But I can t. The fact is a Terran with a top form AND mechanically as great as a Zerg or Toss can win single match while he could lose in Best Of "X" matchs...Because he has to play aggressive and without any instant of un-awareness, he has to maintain pressure and action. It s not necessary to talk like you do, you re only wasting your spittle, overstating on little biased words. Marines has been used to be the central unit in the balance progress, it s not hard to admit that they are key unit in term of measurement between units and what you call "misinformation" hasn t to take place in a game forum... It s easy to understand excepted Byun in 2016 (with 16 marines drop), noone could have prevent 4 Zergs (Life Rogue Serral and Dark) and two times SOS to win the big trophey.... The most important years of SC2 hasn t been Terran favored, and by now, mechanically speaking, as the game doesn t call into question the problem of speed being a more effective value than decision making, it will lead to a battle of endurance. Already said Lurkers are balanced with marines. And Blizzard said three Lurkers hits are necessary to kill a marine. If you decrease the base damage done by lurkers against light armor units, in retrun something must be offered to Zerg race | ||
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AssyrianKing
Australia2129 Posts
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dbRic1203
Germany2655 Posts
On October 15 2021 18:06 IMSupervisor wrote: Another big problem happening today is the need to silence opinions we don't like instead of being able to talk openly about things we disagree on... I m up to discussing opinions, thats not the Problem. I have a problem when people claim to talk about facts, while it s realy just their opinion. If I would say "it s a fact that it s good that the greens and liberals" are Forming a governmend in Germany", that wouldn t make it a fact. Thats just my opinion. If I state it as fact, I dont realy want to discuss it, though. It s obviously an analogy, but I hope it transports the message. | ||
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WombaT
Northern Ireland27464 Posts
On October 15 2021 16:57 Apom wrote: Well let's be honest, the "unusual spawns" maps that made it to the final selection were not that good. For sure they were not as good as the standard 1v1 maps. So it is logical that they are not added to the ladder / ESL pool. I believe some of the maps that were *not* selected would have been interesting additions, but it is also logical that the poeple in charge of the map pools would not take risks on maps that were never seen in a real context (map pool tournament). We’re never going to find out unless orgs take a few risks, or alternatively make a bigger map pool that can accommodate a few experimental maps that may or may not work. I’d lean more to a bigger pool with more experimental maps, especially now we have the dual problem of map pool rotation being slower than before, less fatigue playing 14 or 11 maps for ages. Ultimately what constitutes a standard map pool now was built through years of testing and tweaking by map makers and those playing on their creations, Wings especially was a testing ground to figure out what features maps needed to be good for the game, as it sure wasn’t fleshed out at launch. We’ve got a pretty good handle on what makes a stock standard 2 player macro map, but limited testing of just about anything else. And worse still, Golden Wall which was a pretty successful, different kind of map was gone really quickly. There’s so substitute for the ladder in having all levels of the game try things out, even the most dedicated map testers can’t compete with that volume. With experimental maps we’re in that jobseeker’s paradox where they need experience to get a job, but can’t get experience without a job. | ||
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Vision_
877 Posts
No mistake ? There is still a trainning mode which make you fight with invisible mmr ? | ||
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[Phantom]
Mexico2170 Posts
On October 15 2021 16:53 dbRic1203 wrote: This is your opinion, but you state it as fact. Thats a big Problem in todays day and age where so many people diguise their opinion as facts and their misinformation and sometimes Deadly conspiracy Theories as opinion, that should be protected by freedom of speech. Long story short, I would like to report you for writing that, because I think it doesn t belong here. But I can t. You want to report me for saying Terran is the hardest race? Alright, maybe I shouldn't state it as a fact because it's hard to verify, but I don't think that's a controversial opinion at all. And I don't even play Terran (except when I random). I'll edit the wording of my previous post. | ||
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Snakestyle11
191 Posts
On October 15 2021 23:15 [Phantom] wrote: You want to report me for saying Terran is the hardest race? Alright, maybe I shouldn't state it as a fact because it's hard to verify, but I don't think that's a controversial opinion at all. And I don't even play Terran (except when I random). I'll edit the wording of my previous post. If terran is the hardest race, how come Diamond most popular race is zerg, then it magically becomes less popular in masters and GM by a long margin. There is usually almost twice as many terran as zergs in GM. But yea sure terran is hardest race. All the zergs are stuck in diamond, because the race is so much harder. I can tell you why its harder. You cant just have a build and execute it. Every game you have to react to opponents build, harass and style. You have to scout and adapt in real time all game every game, Droning is a risk. Attacking is a risk. You usually need to scout, and defend many attacks until late game then you can try to win the game. You usually have to win 3-4 battles to maybe win a game. Terran, you pick a build you execute it. You win one fight and you have solid chance to win the game right there. The opponent has to adapt to you and your speed. Terran being the hardest race is old news, Every single stats you can look at, player base, race strategic style, it all points towards zerg being the hardest. In any region, the higher on the ladder you go, the least zergs there are. Also, Protoss blaming stargate play on certain OP zerg thing is toxic and overused. *Protoss always goes stargate because of hatchery overlord drop*.Overlord drop removed, protoss still go stargates every game. * Protoss always goes stargate because they need it to secure third* *Shield battery overcharge added, protoss still goes stargate every game* *Its because of banelings!!* * banelings nerf, protoss still goes stargate every game*. Now the new thing is: * protoss goes stargate every game because of lurkers!!!* Come on man, you guys got enough zerg things nerfed. The real reason is. Protoss goes stargate everygame because its very easy for how strong it is. You can skip early/mid game units and start massing your perfect army from the start. All the gas you invest early game is in units that cant die to lings, bane, roaches or ravagers, making the game very easy for toss early game. | ||
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Vision_
877 Posts
If Zerg has been A-click by Toss, it s not Terran fault, and there s absolutely not twice many terrans as zerg in GM, (1.8 to be accurate). Then you say Lurkers doesn t need a little tweak while many people doesn t agree here. If Terran wasn t the hardest race, how do you explain only Byun win Blizzcon, exploiting a single build-order called 16-marines double medivacs ? (and snowball with it) Don t answer, i have my toughts | ||
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Arghmyliver
United States1081 Posts
On October 16 2021 00:15 Vision_ wrote: Saying Zerg takes risks while they have the larger vision on map with creep and overlord is the most idiot thing you can say in favor of Terran... If Zerg has been A-click by Toss, it s not Terran fault, and there s absolutely not twice many terrans as zerg in GM, (1.8 to be accurate). Then you say Lurkers doesn t need a little tweak while many people doesn t agree here. If Terran wasn t the hardest race, how do you explain only Byun win Blizzcon, exploiting a single build-order called 16-marines double medivacs ? (and snowball with it) Don t answer, i have my toughts "there s absolutely not twice many terrans as zerg in GM, (1.8 to be accurate)." lmao. You guys, it's not sunny outside, it's 98% non-cloudy, get it right. | ||
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Vision_
877 Posts
On October 16 2021 01:17 Arghmyliver wrote: "there s absolutely not twice many terrans as zerg in GM, (1.8 to be accurate)." lmao. You guys, it's not sunny outside, it's 98% non-cloudy, get it right. I don t mind as Zergs lose twice times more than Toss | ||
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jpg06051992
United States580 Posts
On October 16 2021 00:15 Vision_ wrote: Saying Zerg takes risks while they have the larger vision on map with creep and overlord is the most idiot thing you can say in favor of Terran... If Zerg has been A-click by Toss, it s not Terran fault, and there s absolutely not twice many terrans as zerg in GM, (1.8 to be accurate). Then you say Lurkers doesn t need a little tweak while many people doesn t agree here. If Terran wasn t the hardest race, how do you explain only Byun win Blizzcon, exploiting a single build-order called 16-marines double medivacs ? (and snowball with it) Don t answer, i have my toughts Lurkers definitely need a tweak, they are simply too tanky and too mobile for how much insane ground control they give, and I'm a lifelong Zerg player. I dislike when a certain unit is the absolute go to. ZvP? All about the Lurker tech up ZvT? I personally play old school with ling/bling/muta but in pro games Lurkers are the go to end game tech. Hell, even in ZvZ at least on ladder it's just a rush to Lurkers which are soooo soo tedious to break through, they really just extend the length of the games so dramatically. THAT being said, if the Lurker gets nerfed, Skytoss or some of Protoss's defensive capabilities will absolutely need to be tweaked. Protoss players like to cry about the dominance of Zerg ground armies while a few shield batteries and cannons make outlying expansions very difficult and costly to punish. | ||
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BronzeKnee
United States5226 Posts
Usually we just get the whine. | ||
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