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Northern Ireland25091 Posts
On October 20 2021 12:18 tigera6 wrote:Show nested quote +On October 20 2021 08:08 Hunta15 wrote:On October 19 2021 07:24 deacon.frost wrote:On October 15 2021 06:56 freelifeffs wrote:
it is so insane to me that people even talk about potentially nerfing zerg when zerg makes up only 19% of the global gm population currently. 19%! that is the lowest a race has ever been since release of sc2. protoss is at 41% btw and terran at 39%. just nuts.
and not that master league is super relevant, but even there zerg is the least represented race.
zerg is dead. Yeah, until the next WC is Zerg. Again. Hey, zergs are dead, but somehow have the WC title streak for years now. But Zergs are dead. yup. Totally dead. Those two statistics are not even comparable to each other, yet here you are. How you came to the conclusion that 19% of GM being Zergs is okay because Zerg has won the WC many years in a row, some that are not even the current balance patch, while entirely ignoring literally every other tournament that happens is beyond me. In case you didnt know, game balance are made around the top pro players, many people have said that. So if you are on the ladder rank and cant play like pro, tough luck, time to find a new game, dont expect Blizzard to change game balance for ladder player.
Not exclusively, although it is factored in. If you can find me Blizzard saying they don’t even factor the top amateur players into their balance and design decisions I’ll retract.
Unless there’s a noticeably smaller faction population for other reasons such as ‘bugs are icky’ you really should start to see relative parity at a GM kind of level.
In an asymmetric kind of game I think it’s totally fine to have big differentials at different bands, it’s hard to make interesting factions that are different while being equally as rewarding to everyone’s skillset.
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Czech Republic12129 Posts
On October 20 2021 08:08 Hunta15 wrote:Show nested quote +On October 19 2021 07:24 deacon.frost wrote:On October 15 2021 06:56 freelifeffs wrote:
it is so insane to me that people even talk about potentially nerfing zerg when zerg makes up only 19% of the global gm population currently. 19%! that is the lowest a race has ever been since release of sc2. protoss is at 41% btw and terran at 39%. just nuts.
and not that master league is super relevant, but even there zerg is the least represented race.
zerg is dead. Yeah, until the next WC is Zerg. Again. Hey, zergs are dead, but somehow have the WC title streak for years now. But Zergs are dead. yup. Totally dead. Those two statistics are not even comparable to each other, yet here you are. How you came to the conclusion that 19% of GM being Zergs is okay because Zerg has won the WC many years in a row, some that are not even the current balance patch, while entirely ignoring literally every other tournament that happens is beyond me.
It's a theoretical blabering anyway, there's no balance team and they cannot buff zergs anyway and cannot nerf rest either. Deal with it
Edit> also claiming zerg is dead when they have won terrible terrible amount of big titles is just wrong
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8748 Posts
On October 21 2021 01:55 WombaT wrote:Show nested quote +On October 20 2021 12:18 tigera6 wrote:On October 20 2021 08:08 Hunta15 wrote:On October 19 2021 07:24 deacon.frost wrote:On October 15 2021 06:56 freelifeffs wrote:
it is so insane to me that people even talk about potentially nerfing zerg when zerg makes up only 19% of the global gm population currently. 19%! that is the lowest a race has ever been since release of sc2. protoss is at 41% btw and terran at 39%. just nuts.
and not that master league is super relevant, but even there zerg is the least represented race.
zerg is dead. Yeah, until the next WC is Zerg. Again. Hey, zergs are dead, but somehow have the WC title streak for years now. But Zergs are dead. yup. Totally dead. Those two statistics are not even comparable to each other, yet here you are. How you came to the conclusion that 19% of GM being Zergs is okay because Zerg has won the WC many years in a row, some that are not even the current balance patch, while entirely ignoring literally every other tournament that happens is beyond me. In case you didnt know, game balance are made around the top pro players, many people have said that. So if you are on the ladder rank and cant play like pro, tough luck, time to find a new game, dont expect Blizzard to change game balance for ladder player. Not exclusively, although it is factored in. If you can find me Blizzard saying they don’t even factor the top amateur players into their balance and design decisions I’ll retract. Unless there’s a noticeably smaller faction population for other reasons such as ‘bugs are icky’ you really should start to see relative parity at a GM kind of level. In an asymmetric kind of game I think it’s totally fine to have big differentials at different bands, it’s hard to make interesting factions that are different while being equally as rewarding to everyone’s skillset.
i'd guess that if any group has been left out of balance considerations, it's top amateur players. for the most part they are poor copies of pro players. their issues have solutions on display by the top players' of their race.
lower ranked players are playing such a different game than what pros are doing is irrelevant. i believe they have been taken into consideration over the years but pro play has always had the priority.
but i don't think GM populations have ever been this skewed for this long? it seems like a situation that previous balance teams would've addressed. but it's very tricky like i said because you've really got two sets of players playing the same build orders and strategies. one set is playing well and it's balanced. the other set is playing poorly and it's not. it's difficult to find changes that fix one without affecting the other
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In case you didnt know, game balance are made around the top pro players, many people have said that. So if you are on the ladder rank and cant play like pro, tough luck, time to find a new game, dont expect Blizzard to change game balance for ladder player.
Yea I mean we saw where that approach got us. If noone plays the game or watches it, pro scene cannot exist.
If anything, balance should be based around the most active player base, and PRO PLAYERS SHOULD BE THE ONE ADAPTING.
In GM and masters, Zerg was most populated race a few years ago, and protoss least popular. And it was like that for at least 6 years straight.
Now they barely exist, last time i played i could play non stop for 6-7 hours and see one or two zerg. For protoss to become most popular race and zerg least popular race when it was other way around before, im gonna tell you; a lot of players had to quit for that to happen.
And then once ladder is mostly PVP or TVT for hours, what you think happen? More players quit and its a snowball effect.
I hate the old argument of balance around pro level only because its all that matters.
Mate, there are like 30 players that are considered top pro, with no new comers ever, same players for years.
What are the odds that out of those 30 players, the top 3 would be one of each race. What are the odds that there would be 10 of each race doing equally good?
I see tournament wins being used as proof of balance or lack of balance... What are the odds of 2 players being in the final of a tournament, and being identically equal in term of skills, and in equal form that day? Starcraft 2 skill scales infinitely and some people seem to think pros are evenly matched.
Mate, if you look carefully and have watched sc2 for years and arent too anti-zerg bias, you will understand that Serral is the player that makes the least amount of mistakes or mis-scouts in the history of starcraft. You basically NEVER see him make huge mistakes. Even Maru and Trap have their days where they do horrible misplays and mistakes, same for Dark and Rogue.
Pro level is not balanced, and is NOT decided by balance.
Balance only starts to have a big effect when you look at a population of thousands of players.
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On October 21 2021 13:54 Snakestyle11 wrote:Show nested quote +
In case you didnt know, game balance are made around the top pro players, many people have said that. So if you are on the ladder rank and cant play like pro, tough luck, time to find a new game, dont expect Blizzard to change game balance for ladder player.
Pro level is not balanced, and is NOT decided by balance. Balance only starts to have a big effect when you look at a population of thousands of players.
Strongly disagree, Pro level is the only place where balance matters. Below that you can always improve to overcome balance, however the best player of a given race is already extremely close to the humanly attainable skill level so there really isn't much room to improve and balance starts to play a role.
Also very difficult to compare players like that as Zerg objectively has the best scouting tools in the game so obviously the best macro Zerg is the player with the least mis-scouts.
There is no way to say Serral or Maru are objectively better players than Trap
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On October 19 2021 21:54 deacon.frost wrote:Show nested quote +On October 19 2021 19:16 InfCereal wrote:On October 19 2021 07:24 deacon.frost wrote:On October 15 2021 06:56 freelifeffs wrote:
it is so insane to me that people even talk about potentially nerfing zerg when zerg makes up only 19% of the global gm population currently. 19%! that is the lowest a race has ever been since release of sc2. protoss is at 41% btw and terran at 39%. just nuts.
and not that master league is super relevant, but even there zerg is the least represented race.
zerg is dead. Yeah, until the next WC is Zerg. Again. Hey, zergs are dead, but somehow have the WC title streak for years now. But Zergs are dead. yup. Totally dead. You misspelled serral like 3 times there Blizzcon WC titles: 2017 -> Rogue 2018 -> Serral 2019 -> Dark IEM WC titles: 2017 -> TY (and since then Zergs rule the World Championship) 2018 -> Rogue 2019 -> soO 2020 -> Rogue 2021 -> Reynor Many people call me a Serral hater. So I am obviously wrong as you can see from this long list which mentions Serral like 3 times. In reality he was in 1 final of the 7 finals. (edit> zerg won finals, otherwise we can enlarge the selection to anger them fanboys) Show nested quote +On October 19 2021 19:59 MarianoSC2 wrote:
Hm, it feels like all of the new maps except Curious minds are super Zerg favored, no? Didn't check them in the game yet but from the preview pictures it looks like there are plenty chokepoints, should be Terran favored, no? But I didn't give it muhc tthought as I don't watch the SC2 anymore.
I guess the Serral GOAT claims then make sense when his fans apparently think all those tournaments have been won by Serral. I understand it now
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All the GOAT talk is silly anyway, hard to compare past and current SC2. If anything Maru is GOAT since he's been relevant for a long time and won many tournaments. Serral is imo the strongest player of the last 3 years, but that's not GOAT material since Maru was also the 2nd best in that time frame in my eyes, some may say even the best, but I don't think so.
But I still value Mvp a lot, he was such a monster when he was competing.. as was MC.
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On October 21 2021 20:15 HolydaKing wrote:
All the GOAT talk is silly anyway, hard to compare past and current SC2. If anything Maru is GOAT since he's been relevant for a long time and won many tournaments. Serral is imo the strongest player of the last 3 years, but that's not GOAT material since Maru was also the 2nd best in that time frame in my eyes, some may say even the best, but I don't think so.
But I still value Mvp a lot, he was such a monster when he was competing.. as was MC.
MVP is the goat. He was the best in a time when the game was so unpredictable. What Nestea did was also really impressive.
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On October 21 2021 13:54 Snakestyle11 wrote:Show nested quote +
In case you didnt know, game balance are made around the top pro players, many people have said that. So if you are on the ladder rank and cant play like pro, tough luck, time to find a new game, dont expect Blizzard to change game balance for ladder player.
Yea I mean we saw where that approach got us. If noone plays the game or watches it, pro scene cannot exist. If anything, balance should be based around the most active player base, and PRO PLAYERS SHOULD BE THE ONE ADAPTING. In GM and masters, Zerg was most populated race a few years ago, and protoss least popular. And it was like that for at least 6 years straight. Now they barely exist, last time i played i could play non stop for 6-7 hours and see one or two zerg. For protoss to become most popular race and zerg least popular race when it was other way around before, im gonna tell you; a lot of players had to quit for that to happen. And then once ladder is mostly PVP or TVT for hours, what you think happen? More players quit and its a snowball effect. I hate the old argument of balance around pro level only because its all that matters. Mate, there are like 30 players that are considered top pro, with no new comers ever, same players for years. What are the odds that out of those 30 players, the top 3 would be one of each race. What are the odds that there would be 10 of each race doing equally good? I see tournament wins being used as proof of balance or lack of balance... What are the odds of 2 players being in the final of a tournament, and being identically equal in term of skills, and in equal form that day? Starcraft 2 skill scales infinitely and some people seem to think pros are evenly matched. Mate, if you look carefully and have watched sc2 for years and arent too anti-zerg bias, you will understand that Serral is the player that makes the least amount of mistakes or mis-scouts in the history of starcraft. You basically NEVER see him make huge mistakes. Even Maru and Trap have their days where they do horrible misplays and mistakes, same for Dark and Rogue. Pro level is not balanced, and is NOT decided by balance. Balance only starts to have a big effect when you look at a population of thousands of players.
I am not trying to protect the way they treat the Game Balance, I am just stating the way it is with SC2 and Blizzard. and its futile to make a fuss about it now when it has been that way for almost a decade.
Until recently, Serral usually play the most "standard" gameplay but with extra speed, planning, scouting and decision making, but that still doesnt win him as many world title as you thought he could. Rogue played the most extreme way between "too aggro" and "too greedy" while playing standard at some games as well. But he has mixed it so well that it look like he would just crush people left and right when things going well for him. I think Serral style is for stability, but Rogue style is suited for winning tournament imo.
In general, I wished SC2 could follow the AOE2 approach where they make game balance change every 2 months or so, and actually base on ranked game ladded match, not just pro level. But Blizzard doesnt do things like that, and they probably dont even care at this point given the personnel changes.
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Czech Republic12129 Posts
On October 21 2021 06:18 NonY wrote:Show nested quote +On October 21 2021 01:55 WombaT wrote:On October 20 2021 12:18 tigera6 wrote:On October 20 2021 08:08 Hunta15 wrote:On October 19 2021 07:24 deacon.frost wrote:On October 15 2021 06:56 freelifeffs wrote:
it is so insane to me that people even talk about potentially nerfing zerg when zerg makes up only 19% of the global gm population currently. 19%! that is the lowest a race has ever been since release of sc2. protoss is at 41% btw and terran at 39%. just nuts.
and not that master league is super relevant, but even there zerg is the least represented race.
zerg is dead. Yeah, until the next WC is Zerg. Again. Hey, zergs are dead, but somehow have the WC title streak for years now. But Zergs are dead. yup. Totally dead. Those two statistics are not even comparable to each other, yet here you are. How you came to the conclusion that 19% of GM being Zergs is okay because Zerg has won the WC many years in a row, some that are not even the current balance patch, while entirely ignoring literally every other tournament that happens is beyond me. In case you didnt know, game balance are made around the top pro players, many people have said that. So if you are on the ladder rank and cant play like pro, tough luck, time to find a new game, dont expect Blizzard to change game balance for ladder player. Not exclusively, although it is factored in. If you can find me Blizzard saying they don’t even factor the top amateur players into their balance and design decisions I’ll retract. Unless there’s a noticeably smaller faction population for other reasons such as ‘bugs are icky’ you really should start to see relative parity at a GM kind of level. In an asymmetric kind of game I think it’s totally fine to have big differentials at different bands, it’s hard to make interesting factions that are different while being equally as rewarding to everyone’s skillset. i'd guess that if any group has been left out of balance considerations, it's top amateur players. for the most part they are poor copies of pro players. their issues have solutions on display by the top players' of their race. lower ranked players are playing such a different game than what pros are doing is irrelevant. i believe they have been taken into consideration over the years but pro play has always had the priority. but i don't think GM populations have ever been this skewed for this long? it seems like a situation that previous balance teams would've addressed. but it's very tricky like i said because you've really got two sets of players playing the same build orders and strategies. one set is playing well and it's balanced. the other set is playing poorly and it's not. it's difficult to find changes that fix one without affecting the other
Honestly, I believe the Swarmhost patch back in HOTS was based on the ladder and nothing else. Proplayers already adapted and these games generally had great viewership. IT was mostly issue of the ladder where "park and aim" approach in lower leagues was way too easy 
Also it is tricky and it would require a bigger tweaking with most probably post-tweaking. And I doubt Blizzard will break their promise to not touch the game now.
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Berlingrad is quickly becoming my new favorite map for purely aesthetic reasons. There's almost no bling and weird doodahs to distract you .. just an eminently enjoyable map to watch a game on.
Hope to see more maps like this in the future.
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I feel like the new maps are to big. Imo this is a very poor map pool for Terran. I do think they help late game zvp a bit though but I wish they had struck a better balance.
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After watching the Super Tournament today, I am struck again by how pleasant it is to watch a game unfold on Berlingrad. It reminds me of the best of the BW maps like Destination and Heartbreak Ridge. I don't know if it is balanced though but I don't care as long as it makes watching a game so enjoyable.
Hopefully more map makers take heed and avoid the distracting elements such as: floating sharks, units that ascend when they are killed (why the f**k?) lava lakes (try finding a prism or medevac over it) or moving doodahs that blink and what not.
Just because you can add them does not mean that you should. Keep those things to a minimum on a map (or remove them entirely) and game play improves subjectively for spectators. Hats of to "Skypirinha1" who designed Berlingrad. Thank you sir!
Just my thoughts but I'd like to hear what other people think.
[edit] Here is another way to put it: I am there for the game, not the spectacular scenery.
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Northern Ireland25091 Posts
I like space sharks though 
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Omg, I am waiting for this
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EPT
