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Blizzard announce new map pool, changing Oct 19 - Page 2

Forum Index > SC2 General
94 CommentsPost a Reply
Prev 1 2 3 4 5 Next All
Riner1212
Profile Joined November 2012
United States337 Posts
October 13 2021 13:38 GMT
#21
okay so how about balance?
Sjow "pretty ez life as protoss"
Howard_Kao
Profile Joined September 2018
China261 Posts
October 13 2021 14:34 GMT
#22
On October 13 2021 22:38 Riner1212 wrote:
okay so how about balance?

Probably not until Katowice finish
"You don't need a gsl champion, you don't need a esl champion. I feel like I'm just a normal man. I just practice very hard this time, like 15hrs everyday" Oliveira 2023
jpg06051992
Profile Joined July 2015
United States580 Posts
October 13 2021 15:15 GMT
#23
On October 13 2021 22:38 Riner1212 wrote:
okay so how about balance?


What about it? It's obvious at this point that unless something like Broodlord/Infestor pops up again there won't be any patches, not like anyone at Blizzard even has the metagame knowledge or the expertise to come up with a good patch anyways.
"SO MANY BANELINGS!"
Argonauta
Profile Joined July 2016
Spain4953 Posts
October 13 2021 15:52 GMT
#24
On October 13 2021 22:38 Riner1212 wrote:
okay so how about balance?



I really dont want anybody in blizzard now to touch the balance of the game, is not is a terrible place and now they can do more harm than good. Achieving balance through maps à la broodwar is preferable.
Rogue | Maru | Scarlett | Trap
TL+ Member
MockHamill
Profile Joined March 2010
Sweden1798 Posts
October 13 2021 16:31 GMT
#25
On October 14 2021 00:52 Argonauta wrote:
Show nested quote +
On October 13 2021 22:38 Riner1212 wrote:
okay so how about balance?



I really dont want anybody in blizzard now to touch the balance of the game, is not is a terrible place and now they can do more harm than good. Achieving balance through maps à la broodwar is preferable.


I am not sure that is even possible in SC2. How do you design a map that is bad for Protoss but equally good for Terran and Zerg?
jpg06051992
Profile Joined July 2015
United States580 Posts
October 13 2021 16:48 GMT
#26
On October 14 2021 01:31 MockHamill wrote:
Show nested quote +
On October 14 2021 00:52 Argonauta wrote:
On October 13 2021 22:38 Riner1212 wrote:
okay so how about balance?



I really dont want anybody in blizzard now to touch the balance of the game, is not is a terrible place and now they can do more harm than good. Achieving balance through maps à la broodwar is preferable.


I am not sure that is even possible in SC2. How do you design a map that is bad for Protoss but equally good for Terran and Zerg?


Perfect balance is unattainable through either patches and maps, but we can come closer with maps imo. Maps like Blackburn are clearly Terran and Protoss favored, while Jagg is a Zerg map through and through, that's what vetos are for :D
"SO MANY BANELINGS!"
[Phantom]
Profile Blog Joined August 2013
Mexico2170 Posts
Last Edited: 2021-10-13 17:00:39
October 13 2021 16:57 GMT
#27
You make big maps. Not necessarily open ones, but big ones. Protoss lacks mobility. Even with recall as it has a very very high cooldown.

For example, I had one game in Romanticide where in the Lategame (when I had my 4rth and my 5, onwards), the enemy zerg made nydus, but not to put it in my main and kill me. He put multiple nyduses on the borders of the map and he would instantly teleport his army across the map. Even with recall I couldn't catch it as Nydus has no cooldowns. and Zerg units are super fast. Even if I killed the Nydus he would make them again. And he didn't even need to put the nydus that close to my bases, as again Zerg units are super fast even off creep, and as a Protoss you need to wait for the super slow HT and Carriers to take any engage. I've never seen something so broken in my life. It was truly a "nydus network" and the unit taken to it's maximum potential. Just think about it, there is a reason why recall has a long cooldown and it's shared across al Nexuses. Fortunately that strat is only viable on big maps and no body uses Nydus that way.

But that's one example. In general big maps are Zerg favored. In the case of terran I guess it reduces the strenght of bio agression, but Mech can work in TvZ and Terran can defend far away bases pretty well with tanks/libs and PF. It also nerfs Protoss in a sense as Carriers are pretty slow and VR are not that fast before the upgrade. I've seen a lot of Zergs using Mutas in Romanticide so maybe they're onto something.

Also maybe more bases where minerals are exposed like that gold base in blackburn.

I mean, the fact that the only reason Protoss has more than 0% winrate vs zerg is all maps have only 1 entrance to the main and natura should help shown how important map design is.

On October 14 2021 01:48 jpg06051992 wrote:
Show nested quote +
On October 14 2021 01:31 MockHamill wrote:
On October 14 2021 00:52 Argonauta wrote:
On October 13 2021 22:38 Riner1212 wrote:
okay so how about balance?



I really dont want anybody in blizzard now to touch the balance of the game, is not is a terrible place and now they can do more harm than good. Achieving balance through maps à la broodwar is preferable.


I am not sure that is even possible in SC2. How do you design a map that is bad for Protoss but equally good for Terran and Zerg?


Perfect balance is unattainable through either patches and maps, but we can come closer with maps imo. Maps like Blackburn are clearly Terran and Protoss favored, while Jagg is a Zerg map through and through, that's what vetos are for :D


Really? Because the gold base is a very big buff for Zerg as they can take it earlier than other races and have less workers than in other maps that let them make more army or make it faster.
WriterTeamLiquid Staff writer since 2014 @Mortal_Phantom
MhaxIA
Profile Joined May 2020
7 Posts
October 13 2021 18:26 GMT
#28
Pride of Altaris looks like a sick map! you can either Siege and defend your third that has destructible rocks and focus on getting the gold one later, but by doing so, you're essentially giving the gold to your opponent as well.
M3t4PhYzX
Profile Joined March 2019
Poland4203 Posts
October 13 2021 19:10 GMT
#29
unexpected

cool beans
odi profanum vulgus et arceo
jpg06051992
Profile Joined July 2015
United States580 Posts
October 13 2021 19:55 GMT
#30
Really? Because the gold base is a very big buff for Zerg as they can take it earlier than other races and have less workers than in other maps that let them make more army or make it faster.


I mean while that is true in a way, it's also an easy map for split map mech and turtle Skytoss, with very close air rush distances which are obviously bad for Zerg. Also lots of chokes make siege tanks extremely strong and the map is very Liberator friendly.

I'm not saying that my opinion on BB is gospel or anything just saying I view it as a bad map for Zerg. That gold base is also ludicrously hard to hold if taken greedily.
"SO MANY BANELINGS!"
WombaT
Profile Blog Joined May 2010
Northern Ireland25633 Posts
October 13 2021 23:36 GMT
#31
On October 14 2021 00:52 Argonauta wrote:
Show nested quote +
On October 13 2021 22:38 Riner1212 wrote:
okay so how about balance?



I really dont want anybody in blizzard now to touch the balance of the game, is not is a terrible place and now they can do more harm than good. Achieving balance through maps à la broodwar is preferable.

Which is possible how given most map pools have 4/5 identikit maps with slight divergence?

Would be nice but without some kind of community server that could experiment a bit and put out a really radical map pool I’m not sure how you balance with maps.
'You'll always be the cuddly marsupial of my heart, despite the inherent flaws of your ancestry' - Squat
SpecKROELLchen
Profile Joined August 2011
Germany151 Posts
October 14 2021 09:16 GMT
#32
Some new maps, in the past, showed some interesting new stuff. Some of them didn't feel that great but others are cool additions, like the boosting zones, slow zones, which can lead to different interactions and usages. I would like to have always at least 1 map in the pool where they play around with new stuff. This could creative diversity without any balance patches, which is great.
As many said its better to not touch balance than to destroy it even when me as a low master terran quit playing by all the random protoss allins :D.

On a high level we are seeing so many great games nowadays its amazing. Especially tvz is so great to watch.
Poopi
Profile Blog Joined November 2010
France12891 Posts
October 14 2021 09:42 GMT
#33
On October 14 2021 04:55 jpg06051992 wrote:
Show nested quote +
Really? Because the gold base is a very big buff for Zerg as they can take it earlier than other races and have less workers than in other maps that let them make more army or make it faster.


I mean while that is true in a way, it's also an easy map for split map mech and turtle Skytoss, with very close air rush distances which are obviously bad for Zerg. Also lots of chokes make siege tanks extremely strong and the map is very Liberator friendly.

I'm not saying that my opinion on BB is gospel or anything just saying I view it as a bad map for Zerg. That gold base is also ludicrously hard to hold if taken greedily.

Seems like a good map for Z in ZvT, and neutral in ZvP. 139w - 153l TvZ (47.6%) and 208w - 202l ZvP (50.7%)
(Wiki)Blackburn LE
WriterMaru
ReZero
Profile Joined April 2019
United Kingdom29 Posts
October 14 2021 14:11 GMT
#34
Thanks ESL,F BLZ!
jpg06051992
Profile Joined July 2015
United States580 Posts
October 14 2021 14:11 GMT
#35
On October 14 2021 18:42 Poopi wrote:
Show nested quote +
On October 14 2021 04:55 jpg06051992 wrote:
Really? Because the gold base is a very big buff for Zerg as they can take it earlier than other races and have less workers than in other maps that let them make more army or make it faster.


I mean while that is true in a way, it's also an easy map for split map mech and turtle Skytoss, with very close air rush distances which are obviously bad for Zerg. Also lots of chokes make siege tanks extremely strong and the map is very Liberator friendly.

I'm not saying that my opinion on BB is gospel or anything just saying I view it as a bad map for Zerg. That gold base is also ludicrously hard to hold if taken greedily.

Seems like a good map for Z in ZvT, and neutral in ZvP. 139w - 153l TvZ (47.6%) and 208w - 202l ZvP (50.7%)
https://liquipedia.net/starcraft2/Blackburn_LE


Like I said my opinion on the matter isn't gospel by any means, but real talk, how many of those wins are Serral against lesser opponents that he stomps on any map like Heromarine? We all know how certain individual pros who are very dominant can shift balance perceptions.
"SO MANY BANELINGS!"
straycat
Profile Blog Joined May 2011
230 Posts
October 14 2021 14:40 GMT
#36
Would be nice if they did something about the league bug asw. I just returned after a small hiatus (a mere six years or so) and was appalled to know league placement has been whack since FEB??
freelifeffs
Profile Joined April 2018
97 Posts
October 14 2021 15:16 GMT
#37
On October 13 2021 22:38 Riner1212 wrote:
okay so how about balance?



this. we need a balance patch more urgently than new maps. why cant esl just do the balancing? all blizzard needs is 1 intern to implement them as long as its just stat changes and nothing that requires code or art.
[Phantom]
Profile Blog Joined August 2013
Mexico2170 Posts
October 14 2021 16:04 GMT
#38
On October 15 2021 00:16 freelifeffs wrote:
Show nested quote +
On October 13 2021 22:38 Riner1212 wrote:
okay so how about balance?



this. we need a balance patch more urgently than new maps. why cant esl just do the balancing? all blizzard needs is 1 intern to implement them as long as its just stat changes and nothing that requires code or art.


Making the change is the easy part. Knowing what to change and how to change it so it achieves the desired effect and has the least unintended consecuences is the hard part. Also knowing if you should balance for GSL, ESL, GM ladder?

EU is full of Protoss in GM. But then if they nerf protoss more they'll lose even harder. It will be at least 5 years before a Protoss is able to win GSL now for example.

Also what to nerf? Should you nerf VR? does that fix the game? Should you nerf the Queen? Should you nerf BC? Would that require further balance changes?

Changing a number is the easy part. It's everything else that is hard, and making that analisys correctly takes time, work and money, which I doubt Blizzard will want to put in.
WriterTeamLiquid Staff writer since 2014 @Mortal_Phantom
jpg06051992
Profile Joined July 2015
United States580 Posts
October 14 2021 17:01 GMT
#39
On October 15 2021 01:04 [Phantom] wrote:
Show nested quote +
On October 15 2021 00:16 freelifeffs wrote:
On October 13 2021 22:38 Riner1212 wrote:
okay so how about balance?



this. we need a balance patch more urgently than new maps. why cant esl just do the balancing? all blizzard needs is 1 intern to implement them as long as its just stat changes and nothing that requires code or art.


Making the change is the easy part. Knowing what to change and how to change it so it achieves the desired effect and has the least unintended consecuences is the hard part. Also knowing if you should balance for GSL, ESL, GM ladder?

EU is full of Protoss in GM. But then if they nerf protoss more they'll lose even harder. It will be at least 5 years before a Protoss is able to win GSL now for example.

Also what to nerf? Should you nerf VR? does that fix the game? Should you nerf the Queen? Should you nerf BC? Would that require further balance changes?

Changing a number is the easy part. It's everything else that is hard, and making that analisys correctly takes time, work and money, which I doubt Blizzard will want to put in.


Easy, either reduce the HP on the Lurker or remove Adaptive Talons from the game entirely. The unit is way too dominant in all it's match ups and it forces Protoss to play hyper defensive past the early mid game, resulting in boring Skytoss.

I'm pretty much along the lines of EVERY air unit in the game needs both a damage reduction and an HP reduction and the entire game rebalanced around ground fights being the go to but we all know something sweeping like that is never going to happen.
"SO MANY BANELINGS!"
IMSupervisor
Profile Joined June 2016
Australia138 Posts
October 14 2021 20:55 GMT
#40
On October 15 2021 02:01 jpg06051992 wrote:
Show nested quote +
On October 15 2021 01:04 [Phantom] wrote:
On October 15 2021 00:16 freelifeffs wrote:
On October 13 2021 22:38 Riner1212 wrote:
okay so how about balance?



this. we need a balance patch more urgently than new maps. why cant esl just do the balancing? all blizzard needs is 1 intern to implement them as long as its just stat changes and nothing that requires code or art.


Making the change is the easy part. Knowing what to change and how to change it so it achieves the desired effect and has the least unintended consecuences is the hard part. Also knowing if you should balance for GSL, ESL, GM ladder?

EU is full of Protoss in GM. But then if they nerf protoss more they'll lose even harder. It will be at least 5 years before a Protoss is able to win GSL now for example.

Also what to nerf? Should you nerf VR? does that fix the game? Should you nerf the Queen? Should you nerf BC? Would that require further balance changes?

Changing a number is the easy part. It's everything else that is hard, and making that analisys correctly takes time, work and money, which I doubt Blizzard will want to put in.


Easy, either reduce the HP on the Lurker or remove Adaptive Talons from the game entirely. The unit is way too dominant in all it's match ups and it forces Protoss to play hyper defensive past the early mid game, resulting in boring Skytoss.

I'm pretty much along the lines of EVERY air unit in the game needs both a damage reduction and an HP reduction and the entire game rebalanced around ground fights being the go to but we all know something sweeping like that is never going to happen.


That's my gripe with the unit too, for a siege unit with a lot of health that can be mass produced it sure moves and transitions to and from attack mode very quickly.
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