EPTBlizzard announce new map pool, changing Oct 19 - Page 2
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Riner1212
United States289 Posts
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Howard_Kao
China242 Posts
On October 13 2021 22:38 Riner1212 wrote: okay so how about balance? Probably not until Katowice finish | ||
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jpg06051992
United States548 Posts
On October 13 2021 22:38 Riner1212 wrote: okay so how about balance? What about it? It's obvious at this point that unless something like Broodlord/Infestor pops up again there won't be any patches, not like anyone at Blizzard even has the metagame knowledge or the expertise to come up with a good patch anyways. | ||
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Argonauta
Spain3858 Posts
On October 13 2021 22:38 Riner1212 wrote: okay so how about balance? I really dont want anybody in blizzard now to touch the balance of the game, is not is a terrible place and now they can do more harm than good. Achieving balance through maps à la broodwar is preferable. | ||
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MockHamill
Sweden1756 Posts
On October 14 2021 00:52 Argonauta wrote: I really dont want anybody in blizzard now to touch the balance of the game, is not is a terrible place and now they can do more harm than good. Achieving balance through maps à la broodwar is preferable. I am not sure that is even possible in SC2. How do you design a map that is bad for Protoss but equally good for Terran and Zerg? | ||
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jpg06051992
United States548 Posts
On October 14 2021 01:31 MockHamill wrote: I am not sure that is even possible in SC2. How do you design a map that is bad for Protoss but equally good for Terran and Zerg? Perfect balance is unattainable through either patches and maps, but we can come closer with maps imo. Maps like Blackburn are clearly Terran and Protoss favored, while Jagg is a Zerg map through and through, that's what vetos are for :D | ||
[Phantom]
Mexico1842 Posts
For example, I had one game in Romanticide where in the Lategame (when I had my 4rth and my 5, onwards), the enemy zerg made nydus, but not to put it in my main and kill me. He put multiple nyduses on the borders of the map and he would instantly teleport his army across the map. Even with recall I couldn't catch it as Nydus has no cooldowns. and Zerg units are super fast. Even if I killed the Nydus he would make them again. And he didn't even need to put the nydus that close to my bases, as again Zerg units are super fast even off creep, and as a Protoss you need to wait for the super slow HT and Carriers to take any engage. I've never seen something so broken in my life. It was truly a "nydus network" and the unit taken to it's maximum potential. Just think about it, there is a reason why recall has a long cooldown and it's shared across al Nexuses. Fortunately that strat is only viable on big maps and no body uses Nydus that way. But that's one example. In general big maps are Zerg favored. In the case of terran I guess it reduces the strenght of bio agression, but Mech can work in TvZ and Terran can defend far away bases pretty well with tanks/libs and PF. It also nerfs Protoss in a sense as Carriers are pretty slow and VR are not that fast before the upgrade. I've seen a lot of Zergs using Mutas in Romanticide so maybe they're onto something. Also maybe more bases where minerals are exposed like that gold base in blackburn. I mean, the fact that the only reason Protoss has more than 0% winrate vs zerg is all maps have only 1 entrance to the main and natura should help shown how important map design is. On October 14 2021 01:48 jpg06051992 wrote: Perfect balance is unattainable through either patches and maps, but we can come closer with maps imo. Maps like Blackburn are clearly Terran and Protoss favored, while Jagg is a Zerg map through and through, that's what vetos are for :D Really? Because the gold base is a very big buff for Zerg as they can take it earlier than other races and have less workers than in other maps that let them make more army or make it faster. | ||
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MhaxIA
3 Posts
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M3t4PhYzX
Poland2413 Posts
cool beans | ||
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jpg06051992
United States548 Posts
Really? Because the gold base is a very big buff for Zerg as they can take it earlier than other races and have less workers than in other maps that let them make more army or make it faster. I mean while that is true in a way, it's also an easy map for split map mech and turtle Skytoss, with very close air rush distances which are obviously bad for Zerg. Also lots of chokes make siege tanks extremely strong and the map is very Liberator friendly. I'm not saying that my opinion on BB is gospel or anything just saying I view it as a bad map for Zerg. That gold base is also ludicrously hard to hold if taken greedily. | ||
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WombaT
Northern Ireland16440 Posts
On October 14 2021 00:52 Argonauta wrote: I really dont want anybody in blizzard now to touch the balance of the game, is not is a terrible place and now they can do more harm than good. Achieving balance through maps à la broodwar is preferable. Which is possible how given most map pools have 4/5 identikit maps with slight divergence? Would be nice but without some kind of community server that could experiment a bit and put out a really radical map pool I’m not sure how you balance with maps. | ||
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SpecKROELLchen
Germany131 Posts
As many said its better to not touch balance than to destroy it even when me as a low master terran quit playing by all the random protoss allins :D. On a high level we are seeing so many great games nowadays its amazing. Especially tvz is so great to watch. | ||
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Poopi
France10426 Posts
On October 14 2021 04:55 jpg06051992 wrote: I mean while that is true in a way, it's also an easy map for split map mech and turtle Skytoss, with very close air rush distances which are obviously bad for Zerg. Also lots of chokes make siege tanks extremely strong and the map is very Liberator friendly. I'm not saying that my opinion on BB is gospel or anything just saying I view it as a bad map for Zerg. That gold base is also ludicrously hard to hold if taken greedily. Seems like a good map for Z in ZvT, and neutral in ZvP. 139w - 153l TvZ (47.6%) and 208w - 202l ZvP (50.7%)  Blackburn LE | ||
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ReZero
United Kingdom22 Posts
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jpg06051992
United States548 Posts
On October 14 2021 18:42 Poopi wrote: Seems like a good map for Z in ZvT, and neutral in ZvP. 139w - 153l TvZ (47.6%) and 208w - 202l ZvP (50.7%) https://liquipedia.net/starcraft2/Blackburn_LE Like I said my opinion on the matter isn't gospel by any means, but real talk, how many of those wins are Serral against lesser opponents that he stomps on any map like Heromarine? We all know how certain individual pros who are very dominant can shift balance perceptions. | ||
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straycat
230 Posts
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freelifeffs
82 Posts
On October 13 2021 22:38 Riner1212 wrote: okay so how about balance? this. we need a balance patch more urgently than new maps. why cant esl just do the balancing? all blizzard needs is 1 intern to implement them as long as its just stat changes and nothing that requires code or art. | ||
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[Phantom]
Mexico1842 Posts
On October 15 2021 00:16 freelifeffs wrote: this. we need a balance patch more urgently than new maps. why cant esl just do the balancing? all blizzard needs is 1 intern to implement them as long as its just stat changes and nothing that requires code or art. Making the change is the easy part. Knowing what to change and how to change it so it achieves the desired effect and has the least unintended consecuences is the hard part. Also knowing if you should balance for GSL, ESL, GM ladder? EU is full of Protoss in GM. But then if they nerf protoss more they'll lose even harder. It will be at least 5 years before a Protoss is able to win GSL now for example. Also what to nerf? Should you nerf VR? does that fix the game? Should you nerf the Queen? Should you nerf BC? Would that require further balance changes? Changing a number is the easy part. It's everything else that is hard, and making that analisys correctly takes time, work and money, which I doubt Blizzard will want to put in. | ||
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jpg06051992
United States548 Posts
On October 15 2021 01:04 [Phantom] wrote: Making the change is the easy part. Knowing what to change and how to change it so it achieves the desired effect and has the least unintended consecuences is the hard part. Also knowing if you should balance for GSL, ESL, GM ladder? EU is full of Protoss in GM. But then if they nerf protoss more they'll lose even harder. It will be at least 5 years before a Protoss is able to win GSL now for example. Also what to nerf? Should you nerf VR? does that fix the game? Should you nerf the Queen? Should you nerf BC? Would that require further balance changes? Changing a number is the easy part. It's everything else that is hard, and making that analisys correctly takes time, work and money, which I doubt Blizzard will want to put in. Easy, either reduce the HP on the Lurker or remove Adaptive Talons from the game entirely. The unit is way too dominant in all it's match ups and it forces Protoss to play hyper defensive past the early mid game, resulting in boring Skytoss. I'm pretty much along the lines of EVERY air unit in the game needs both a damage reduction and an HP reduction and the entire game rebalanced around ground fights being the go to but we all know something sweeping like that is never going to happen. | ||
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IMSupervisor
Australia119 Posts
On October 15 2021 02:01 jpg06051992 wrote: Easy, either reduce the HP on the Lurker or remove Adaptive Talons from the game entirely. The unit is way too dominant in all it's match ups and it forces Protoss to play hyper defensive past the early mid game, resulting in boring Skytoss. I'm pretty much along the lines of EVERY air unit in the game needs both a damage reduction and an HP reduction and the entire game rebalanced around ground fights being the go to but we all know something sweeping like that is never going to happen. That's my gripe with the unit too, for a siege unit with a lot of health that can be mass produced it sure moves and transitions to and from attack mode very quickly. | ||
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