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How important is it for StarCraft II to get a new balance…

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TL.net Bot
Profile Joined June 2004
TL.net132 Posts
Last Edited: 2021-09-07 14:03:09
September 07 2021 14:01 GMT
#1
Discussion thread for TL.net poll: "How important is it for StarCraft II to have a new balance patch?"
meadbert
Profile Blog Joined October 2010
United States681 Posts
September 07 2021 14:11 GMT
#2
I don't think it is THAT important. Balance is fairly decent and a lot of the stuff I hate like Cannon rushing has been around forever.

IMHO, the biggest issues are:
1) Cannon Rush - Maybe say cannons can only be built near Forge or Nexus.
2) Void Ray + proxy Battery - Maybe batteries can only be built near Cyber Core or Nexus
3) Protoss ground is too weak in PvZ. There is no way to fight Lurker/Brood with Protoss ground. I have no idea how to fix this. Maybe add a Stalker range upgrade so they can stay relevant in the late game.
4) Protoss air has been buffed to the point where Zerg can 100% prepare for it and still die. Obvious fix would be nerfing Void Ray in one way or another but maybe adjust Phoenix such that Mutas are viable again.

BonitiilloO
Profile Joined June 2013
Dominican Republic625 Posts
September 07 2021 16:27 GMT
#3
i would like units to last more, probably reducing their DPS a little bit of every single unit, so we can have more micro battles.

look at bw.
How may help u?
SirKibbleX
Profile Blog Joined October 2006
United States479 Posts
September 07 2021 16:27 GMT
#4
There seem to be a lot of mid-high level players (below Pro) especially Terrans who are getting really sick of playing vP. Even if a given m/u is balanced it still should be fun and not make players feel like they have to play a particular way. It seems like more and more people are just switching to Protoss because there's more options and variety and it's a just fundamentally a less stressful faction to play as, whether or not it's inherently stronger.

Terrans especially, I think, are pretty sick of the m/u and all the different very strong cheeses Protoss can use. There is additionally a perception, whether well-founded or not, in the Terran community that Protoss mid- and late-game is easier, demands significantly less multitask and APM to achieve successful outcomes, and therefore should be avoided. As a result, the Terran meta has converged on aggressive play and all-ins in the mid-game as a response to Protoss's perceived lategame power. It 'feels' like Terran doesn't have many options on how to play, and it is very difficult and mentally stressful to play the proscribed style that is perceived as being 'most consistently' able to defeat Protoss.
Praemonitus, Praemunitus.
QOGQOG
Profile Joined July 2019
834 Posts
September 07 2021 16:32 GMT
#5
There are some issues with the game, particularly lategame, that it would be nice to fix up. But it's probably for the best if they don't, honestly. The game is in a decent place balance wise, and I think a patch coming from the C-team would likely make it worse.
[Phantom]
Profile Blog Joined August 2013
Mexico2170 Posts
September 07 2021 17:37 GMT
#6
I think it's important, but I don't think it will happen. It's not as easy to just balance patch something as you need to analyze a lot of data to try to be as impartial as possible. So while changing stats is easy, making that analysis is not. A lot of people are saying things like nerf the VR or something, but the VR sucked before it's buff and PvZ was in an awful spot. It's still awful in a variety of ways for both races, but changing the VR would make it worse.

Then you have all those EU terran complaining about protoss, but what would they change? And Protoss barely wins any tournaments as is, so is it really necessary? I feel a lot of it is in perceptions. Protoss feels unfair, but it isn't, and imo, its' in fact kind of bad.
WriterTeamLiquid Staff writer since 2014 @Mortal_Phantom
Nakajin
Profile Blog Joined September 2014
Canada8989 Posts
Last Edited: 2021-09-07 17:46:02
September 07 2021 17:45 GMT
#7
Voidray could be tweak a little, since it's hard to balanced map for it because it's a flying unit, but honestly I'm pretty content with the way the game is right now, most match up seems balanced and enjoyable to me. Not a bad patch to ends up on.
I'd like more map rotation though.

Writerhttp://i.imgur.com/9p6ufcB.jpg
Ciaus_Dronu
Profile Joined June 2017
South Africa1848 Posts
September 07 2021 18:07 GMT
#8
We are seeing proxy voidray battery build number god-knows-how-many right now in sOs vs Heromarine.
It's really dumb.

I'd say a patch is pretty critical for at least my continued interest in the game.
Protoss is a bit of a joke right now. For the top 20 players I think the game is balanced, for everyone else Protoss is just more winning for the same amount of effort / mistakes.
[PkF] Wire
Profile Joined March 2013
France24209 Posts
September 07 2021 18:20 GMT
#9
On September 08 2021 03:07 Ciaus_Dronu wrote:
We are seeing proxy voidray battery build number god-knows-how-many right now in sOs vs Heromarine.
It's really dumb.

I'd say a patch is pretty critical for at least my continued interest in the game.
Protoss is a bit of a joke right now. For the top 20 players I think the game is balanced, for everyone else Protoss is just more winning for the same amount of effort / mistakes.

more or less my stance. So yeah, extremely important imo
darklycid
Profile Joined May 2014
3512 Posts
September 07 2021 18:21 GMT
#10
On September 08 2021 03:07 Ciaus_Dronu wrote:
We are seeing proxy voidray battery build number god-knows-how-many right now in sOs vs Heromarine.
It's really dumb.

I'd say a patch is pretty critical for at least my continued interest in the game.
Protoss is a bit of a joke right now. For the top 20 players I think the game is balanced, for everyone else Protoss is just more winning for the same amount of effort / mistakes.

While there are definitely some strategies that lead to toss having the advantage in 6k and below (2sg void comes to mind) i think it's kinda unfair to put it onto general protoss strength, needs probably some delicate changes that i sadly don't see coming.
TheWildShooter
Profile Joined September 2011
79 Posts
September 07 2021 19:18 GMT
#11
I think the game in a great need of a patch. But the patch should focus mostly on design rather than balance imo, because balance-wise the game is in a fairly good spot. Something should be done about effectiveness of battery overcharge (maybe increase its cooldown?), oppressive power of lurker and lurker-viper combo making any protoss ground style obsolete, and finally about skytoss. The current PvZ meta is extremely lame.
oGsMC <3
Vision_
Profile Joined September 2018
861 Posts
September 07 2021 19:38 GMT
#12
On September 08 2021 02:37 [Phantom] wrote:
I think it's important, but I don't think it will happen. It's not as easy to just balance patch something as you need to analyze a lot of data to try to be as impartial as possible. So while changing stats is easy, making that analysis is not. A lot of people are saying things like nerf the VR or something, but the VR sucked before it's buff and PvZ was in an awful spot. It's still awful in a variety of ways for both races, but changing the VR would make it worse.


Not easy ?

If i was paid to give back the old school style to SC2, i won t be afraid at all about my chance of failure.
Poopi
Profile Blog Joined November 2010
France12890 Posts
September 07 2021 19:40 GMT
#13
On September 08 2021 02:37 [Phantom] wrote:
I think it's important, but I don't think it will happen. It's not as easy to just balance patch something as you need to analyze a lot of data to try to be as impartial as possible. So while changing stats is easy, making that analysis is not. A lot of people are saying things like nerf the VR or something, but the VR sucked before it's buff and PvZ was in an awful spot. It's still awful in a variety of ways for both races, but changing the VR would make it worse.

Then you have all those EU terran complaining about protoss, but what would they change? And Protoss barely wins any tournaments as is, so is it really necessary? I feel a lot of it is in perceptions. Protoss feels unfair, but it isn't, and imo, its' in fact kind of bad.

How can it be that bad since they won the most money in 2021?
They should make the VR rush less strong in PvT without making PvZ too imbalanced, but on the other hand the PvZ meta seems pretty horrible as well.
I think terrans would be less angry about TvP mid game / late game if the early game was ok / no more proxy void ray as strong etc? Since it could allow some other options
WriterMaru
Vision_
Profile Joined September 2018
861 Posts
Last Edited: 2021-09-07 19:50:03
September 07 2021 19:44 GMT
#14
On September 08 2021 02:37 [Phantom] wrote:
I think it's important, but I don't think it will happen. It's not as easy to just balance patch something as you need to analyze a lot of data to try to be as impartial as possible. So while changing stats is easy, making that analysis is not. A lot of people are saying things like nerf the VR or something, but the VR sucked before it's buff and PvZ was in an awful spot. It's still awful in a variety of ways for both races, but changing the VR would make it worse.


Not easy ?

If i was paid to give back the old school style to SC2, i won t be afraid at all about my chance of failure. There is a mod/tool dedicated to create balance (i don t remember what s the name), there s nothing new under the sun, pros players advice would be precious, the main objective would be to avoid difference in result between someone with 150 and someone with 300 APM.

The most important thing that you have to do is to make the ground more impactfull on the game. Sight of view in fog of war more present, ground vegetation add specific bonus.. etc... or ground which slow some units.

It s not so hard.

This game has been done for Professionnal Esport, not for a large community. Blizzard has used the pro scene as a rocket space.
Ctone23
Profile Blog Joined December 2012
United States1839 Posts
September 07 2021 20:50 GMT
#15
  • Reduce the starting energy and/or capping the shield battery energy to 75, this would shave off 75 hp of healing per battery and affect the proxy void strat, at least at a high level.

  • Reduce Prismatic Alignment to +4 bonus damage (+6 now), perhaps nerf the speed to 30% instead of 25% as it is now.

  • Give Mutalisk an upgrade to temporarily increase speed at the cost of health (zerg stimmy) to help them escape phoenix pew pews.

Changes feel small enough but have potential to help shift the meta, which is all I really want both as a spectator and a player.
TL+ Member
meadbert
Profile Blog Joined October 2010
United States681 Posts
September 07 2021 21:02 GMT
#16
On September 08 2021 05:50 Ctone23 wrote:
  • Reduce the starting energy and/or capping the shield battery energy to 75, this would shave off 75 hp of healing per battery and affect the proxy void strat, at least at a high level.

  • Reduce Prismatic Alignment to +4 bonus damage (+6 now), perhaps nerf the speed to 30% instead of 25% as it is now.

  • Give Mutalisk an upgrade to temporarily increase speed at the cost of health (zerg stimmy) to help them escape phoenix pew pews.

Changes feel small enough but have potential to help shift the meta, which is all I really want both as a spectator and a player.

I like the second two.

The problem with the battery nerf is that Protoss actually needs defensive batteries to not die. The problem is offensive batteries which is I would prefer a rule that impacts just the offensive use of batteries.

I suggested forcing them to be made close to Nexus or Cyber Core. A softer alternative would be a rule that they warp in extra slowly if not near a core or Nexus.

Proxy battery anything is horrendous and totally against the intent of the battery, but batteries are really needed if we want to avoid Protoss going back to just 2 base all ins ever game.
Ctone23
Profile Blog Joined December 2012
United States1839 Posts
September 07 2021 21:12 GMT
#17
On September 08 2021 06:02 meadbert wrote:
Show nested quote +
On September 08 2021 05:50 Ctone23 wrote:
  • Reduce the starting energy and/or capping the shield battery energy to 75, this would shave off 75 hp of healing per battery and affect the proxy void strat, at least at a high level.

  • Reduce Prismatic Alignment to +4 bonus damage (+6 now), perhaps nerf the speed to 30% instead of 25% as it is now.

  • Give Mutalisk an upgrade to temporarily increase speed at the cost of health (zerg stimmy) to help them escape phoenix pew pews.

Changes feel small enough but have potential to help shift the meta, which is all I really want both as a spectator and a player.

I like the second two.

The problem with the battery nerf is that Protoss actually needs defensive batteries to not die. The problem is offensive batteries which is I would prefer a rule that impacts just the offensive use of batteries.

I suggested forcing them to be made close to Nexus or Cyber Core. A softer alternative would be a rule that they warp in extra slowly if not near a core or Nexus.

Proxy battery anything is horrendous and totally against the intent of the battery, but batteries are really needed if we want to avoid Protoss going back to just 2 base all ins ever game.


Slower warp in if not near a nexus is an interesting thought. I figure an energy reduction would not affect the battery overcharge ability so the defensive use would still be strong, but maybe not.
TL+ Member
nesmah
Profile Joined October 2012
France26 Posts
September 07 2021 21:15 GMT
#18
"How important is it for StarCraft II to have a new balance patch?"

In my opinion, it's really important to have a balance patch rapidly.

This is so boring to watch in every tournament proxy void + battery, and it's also very frustrating to see how this strategy is ridiculously simple to execute and how hard it is to hold.
Also, in TvP i don't think a protoss that take a third at 3'30 (or less) with only one unit and batteries, and cannot be punish by the terran is legit.
A good nerf should be that battery could only be build in a range of a nexus and increase the cost of batteries by +50 or +75.
freelifeffs
Profile Joined April 2018
97 Posts
September 07 2021 21:23 GMT
#19
this is gonna be an unpopular opinion but zerg suffers. zerg is just getting rekt unless its serral, reynor, dark or rogue. pick any random spot in gm or even master if you want and chances are very high that this guy has by far the best winrate against zerg. just humor yourself and try it. it took me 11 random profile openings until i found someone for whom it wasnt the case. doesnt matter if terran or protoss btw. last time i checked rankedftw (why is it down btw?) zerg percentage in gm and master was around 20%. dont think any race has ever been this low. pretty much every tournament zerg gets rekt before the ro8. so yes i believe we need a balance patch. not only because of balance because sure, the top zergs are still winning stuff sometimes, but more because of fun. playing sc2 is not fun atm when you are zerg. its a miserable experience. legit miserable. i was consistently at 5400k mmr for the past 3 years. since that patch some seasons ago i struggle to reach 4900. its painful.

now go ahead and flame me. i probably deserve it lol
91matt
Profile Joined March 2013
United Kingdom147 Posts
September 07 2021 21:41 GMT
#20
On September 08 2021 06:23 freelifeffs wrote:
this is gonna be an unpopular opinion but zerg suffers. zerg is just getting rekt unless its serral, reynor, dark or rogue. pick any random spot in gm or even master if you want and chances are very high that this guy has by far the best winrate against zerg. just humor yourself and try it. it took me 11 random profile openings until i found someone for whom it wasnt the case. doesnt matter if terran or protoss btw. last time i checked rankedftw (why is it down btw?) zerg percentage in gm and master was around 20%. dont think any race has ever been this low. pretty much every tournament zerg gets rekt before the ro8. so yes i believe we need a balance patch. not only because of balance because sure, the top zergs are still winning stuff sometimes, but more because of fun. playing sc2 is not fun atm when you are zerg. its a miserable experience. legit miserable. i was consistently at 5400k mmr for the past 3 years. since that patch some seasons ago i struggle to reach 4900. its painful.

now go ahead and flame me. i probably deserve it lol


zvt is really hard on this map pool/patch, overall its a good matchup but very hard.

zvp protoss players are basically playing single player at this point, they don't have to scout/worry about much except queen walks, and if you're not a top player its very hard to not just get rolled over by air units. It honestly looks pathetic when someone tries an early game all in on a protoss, how easy it is to hold it.

playing zerg is absolute misery you're 100% right, there won't be many z players left if they don't patch something
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