|
On October 28 2021 01:51 meadbert wrote:Show nested quote +On October 28 2021 00:50 deacon.frost wrote:
If the game is balanced then the representation of victors and runner ups should be balanced too over the time. It's not. We can discuss the representation of the top players over the region locked areas, but when region locked areas clashes it still doesn't looked balanced.
And t o be fair, most fans don't care about balance, they want to see their race to win some big stuff. The last 7 World Champions were Zergs. Terrans have at least the Code S. Protoss players have what, NA?
Edit> Out of those 7 WC titles for Zergs we had soO, Dark, Rogue(2 IEMs, 1 Blizzcon), Serral and Reynor. So you cannot even blame it on a dominance of 1 player when 5 different Zergs dominate the most prestigious title of them all where all the excuses fade away. So you are giving the standard Protoss explanation and there is a lot of truth to what you are saying. It is harder for Protoss to win major tournaments, but the reason is neither PvT nor PvZ. The reason Protoss players struggle to win major tournaments in PvP. The problem is the best Protoss players can be eliminated early by worse players in an unfortunate PvP. It is crazy that a regular GSL has not gone to a Protoss player since today's freshmen in college were in middle school, but it may not be because PvZ or PvT are imbalanced. If you look at TvX you will see the matchup with the least dominance is TvP. Marus has 3239 in TvT Clem has 3327 in TvZ Clem only has 3156 in TvP Again, this is not because Protoss is OP vs Terran. Zest is only 3132 in PvT so Clem is still favored vs Zest. The issue is that Protoss introduces a bit of luck into the matchup which means making a long run in a tournament is harder for a good Protoss player.
I think the reason is simply because Protoss doesnt have an S-rank player what can consistently perform at the greater stage. Stats was the last one who is considered as such during his 2018-2019 run, but got faced with Maru in GSL and Serral in the global tournament at their peak.
Trap, the best Protoss player at the moment to many people eyes, seems to not able to keep his supremely high level at critical moment, and lost because he grossly under-performed (in Code S, IEM, DH Global ect.). Zest, Parting and MaxPax are at the level where they can take a series or two from Serral/Clem/Maru/Dark/Rogue, but they are not able to pull together a string of victories to win a tournament.
|
On October 28 2021 01:51 meadbert wrote:Show nested quote +On October 28 2021 00:50 deacon.frost wrote:
If the game is balanced then the representation of victors and runner ups should be balanced too over the time. It's not. We can discuss the representation of the top players over the region locked areas, but when region locked areas clashes it still doesn't looked balanced.
And t o be fair, most fans don't care about balance, they want to see their race to win some big stuff. The last 7 World Champions were Zergs. Terrans have at least the Code S. Protoss players have what, NA?
Edit> Out of those 7 WC titles for Zergs we had soO, Dark, Rogue(2 IEMs, 1 Blizzcon), Serral and Reynor. So you cannot even blame it on a dominance of 1 player when 5 different Zergs dominate the most prestigious title of them all where all the excuses fade away. So you are giving the standard Protoss explanation and there is a lot of truth to what you are saying. It is harder for Protoss to win major tournaments, but the reason is neither PvT nor PvZ. The reason Protoss players struggle to win major tournaments in PvP. The problem is the best Protoss players can be eliminated early by worse players in an unfortunate PvP. It is crazy that a regular GSL has not gone to a Protoss player since today's freshmen in college were in middle school, but it may not be because PvZ or PvT are imbalanced. If you look at TvX you will see the matchup with the least dominance is TvP. Marus has 3239 in TvT Clem has 3327 in TvZ Clem only has 3156 in TvP Again, this is not because Protoss is OP vs Terran. Zest is only 3132 in PvT so Clem is still favored vs Zest. The issue is that Protoss introduces a bit of luck into the matchup which means making a long run in a tournament is harder for a good Protoss player.
Looking at the last five GSLs from the Quarterfinals onwards, matches that eliminated a Protoss were,
+ Show Spoiler +
At least in GSL, PvP is definitely not Protoss' problem. There are a ton of other problems, including having the top Protoss player be Trap, someone who has an allergy to winning GSL, but there are also just no real top Protoss players that aren't extremely flawed. Its basically just Trap.
As to why there aren't really any top Protoss players is its own question. Could be Protoss being shit, could be all of retirements, could be history, I don't really know, but I have a very hard time seeing PvP as the reason why Protoss has such a crap time in tournaments.
|
Just wanna chime in and say pvz may be more or less balanced but void rays make it a garbage matchup to watch so a patch is def need imo.
|
On October 28 2021 16:05 darklycid wrote:
Just wanna chime in and say pvz may be more or less balanced but void rays make it a garbage matchup to watch so a patch is def need imo.
They also just aren't very fun to play against. Yes, there are counters which work, but I'd rather the battles you get with Zerg and Protoss ground armies.
|
On October 28 2021 16:16 Tal wrote:Show nested quote +On October 28 2021 16:05 darklycid wrote:
Just wanna chime in and say pvz may be more or less balanced but void rays make it a garbage matchup to watch so a patch is def need imo. They also just aren't very fun to play against. Yes, there are counters which work, but I'd rather the battles you get with Zerg and Protoss ground armies.
Nothing is more fun than spending first 8 minutes of the game just chasing void rays rotating from your 3rd/4th to your main.
Fun interaction. Out of position once?? Lose a base or lair or like 5-6 queens. Meanwhile protoss has to mess up immensely to lose even one void ray.
Just lame as hell to play. Imagine one race core unit is a flying unit thats fast and good against everything all around. The response to that is ground unit that are super slow and clunky and cant really maneuvre off creep and arent particularly good against ground.
Just unfun to play. and reflects hard in the drop of zerg population since the void ray nerf. This patch literally killed almost half the zerg population at highish level of ladder.
|
Zerg did have an answer to air deathballs back at release with their stronger parasitic bomb.
Why was that nerfed again? Obliterating vikings making late game ZvT way too zerg favored?
If that's the case, then buffing PB might actually be an option. Vikings aren't used in ZvT since the thor buff, and at high levels, no one's making pure air. It's usually some combination of archons, high temp, disrupters, carriers, voids.
It's really just below that level that people are going pure air, and a PB buff would help that. Kind of like how you can't go hydras against air because storm exists - You wouldn't be able to go pure air because PB exists.
|
On October 28 2021 14:09 Zambrah wrote:Show nested quote +On October 28 2021 01:51 meadbert wrote:On October 28 2021 00:50 deacon.frost wrote:
If the game is balanced then the representation of victors and runner ups should be balanced too over the time. It's not. We can discuss the representation of the top players over the region locked areas, but when region locked areas clashes it still doesn't looked balanced.
And t o be fair, most fans don't care about balance, they want to see their race to win some big stuff. The last 7 World Champions were Zergs. Terrans have at least the Code S. Protoss players have what, NA?
Edit> Out of those 7 WC titles for Zergs we had soO, Dark, Rogue(2 IEMs, 1 Blizzcon), Serral and Reynor. So you cannot even blame it on a dominance of 1 player when 5 different Zergs dominate the most prestigious title of them all where all the excuses fade away. So you are giving the standard Protoss explanation and there is a lot of truth to what you are saying. It is harder for Protoss to win major tournaments, but the reason is neither PvT nor PvZ. The reason Protoss players struggle to win major tournaments in PvP. The problem is the best Protoss players can be eliminated early by worse players in an unfortunate PvP. It is crazy that a regular GSL has not gone to a Protoss player since today's freshmen in college were in middle school, but it may not be because PvZ or PvT are imbalanced. If you look at TvX you will see the matchup with the least dominance is TvP. Marus has 3239 in TvT Clem has 3327 in TvZ Clem only has 3156 in TvP Again, this is not because Protoss is OP vs Terran. Zest is only 3132 in PvT so Clem is still favored vs Zest. The issue is that Protoss introduces a bit of luck into the matchup which means making a long run in a tournament is harder for a good Protoss player. Looking at the last five GSLs from the Quarterfinals onwards, matches that eliminated a Protoss were, + Show Spoiler +At least in GSL, PvP is definitely not Protoss' problem. There are a ton of other problems, including having the top Protoss player be Trap, someone who has an allergy to winning GSL, but there are also just no real top Protoss players that aren't extremely flawed. Its basically just Trap. As to why there aren't really any top Protoss players is its own question. Could be Protoss being shit, could be all of retirements, could be history, I don't really know, but I have a very hard time seeing PvP as the reason why Protoss has such a crap time in tournaments.
The same factors that make PvP a bit of a coinflip also apply to PvT and PvZ to a lesser extent.
The best Terran players dominate TvZ and even TvT more than TvP.
The best Zerg players dominate ZvT more than ZvP.
It is not that Protoss is bad. It is that Protoss is hard to dominate with.
You have to sort of gamble with your tech choices playing both as and against Protoss and when those gambles fail you, you can lose to a lower level player.
|
Definelly playing on a protoss isn`t the bast solution. I am totally agree with you.
--------------------------------------
my project could be view on this webpage
(time tracking software)
|
On October 28 2021 22:07 InfCereal wrote:
Zerg did have an answer to air deathballs back at release with their stronger parasitic bomb.
Why was that nerfed again? Obliterating vikings making late game ZvT way too zerg favored?
If that's the case, then buffing PB might actually be an option. Vikings aren't used in ZvT since the thor buff, and at high levels, no one's making pure air. It's usually some combination of archons, high temp, disrupters, carriers, voids.
It's really just below that level that people are going pure air, and a PB buff would help that. Kind of like how you can't go hydras against air because storm exists - You wouldn't be able to go pure air because PB exists.
If PB was a certain kill on a Medivac it might have more of an influence on TvZ than just the Viking interaction, however all TvZ interactions would be moot if PB ignored shields and directly reduced HP.
|
I think a Void Ray nerf and a Lurker nerf would probably do alot to help the metagame out a bit, Zerg late game is very very dominant once Vipers and Lurkers hit the field, but without Vipers in their current iteration Skytoss would be nigh impossible to fight, but the unit also single handedly destroys mech so hard it makes it all but unviable in the top levels of play.
My solutions?
- Nerf Void Ray mobility or damage, probably damage that way they can still be a nimble unit that can micro away from AA but wouldn't be able to burst down a Lair in 8 seconds while overcharged. In it's current form it's just too nimble for how quickly it can snipe buildings and how effectively they can trade vs. Queens, it's too safe, makes Zerg play very defensively unless you're Queen walking but there is definitely counters to that build.
- Nerf Blinding Cloud, make it so it only reduces range by 4, this would still cripple bio forces and anything that isn't inherently long range but the unit shuts down tanks so hard with this ability when abduct also dominates tank play, this is just to give Terran some more late game defensive abilities with tanks and shake up the meta a bit, Zerg looks very strong in the late game against Terran right now.
- Nerf the Lurker, either remove Adaptive Talons from the game entirely or reduce their HP. They are too good plain and simple. They are tanky as hell and can take a ton of storms or tank shots, have very long range, insane burst damage, and with AT it removes a core weakness inherent to siege units, and that's lack of mobility. Once you commit with your lurkers you should have to commit, not be able to micro them away from Biles.
Just tired of tanks being hard countered in every match, it's such a cool iconic unit and it's a shame that it's hard countered by practically everything in the Protoss arsenal and now Zerg has such easy reliable ways of shutting down tank play, this leads to a more pigeon holed approach for Terrans who will favor mine play over tanks.
I think some changes can be done simply for diversities sake, it's not like the changes can't be tweaked or reverted.
|
On October 29 2021 09:12 jpg06051992 wrote:
I think a Void Ray nerf and a Lurker nerf would probably do alot to help the metagame out a bit, Zerg late game is very very dominant once Vipers and Lurkers hit the field, but without Vipers in their current iteration Skytoss would be nigh impossible to fight, but the unit also single handedly destroys mech so hard it makes it all but unviable in the top levels of play.
My solutions?
- Nerf Void Ray mobility or damage, probably damage that way they can still be a nimble unit that can micro away from AA but wouldn't be able to burst down a Lair in 8 seconds while overcharged. In it's current form it's just too nimble for how quickly it can snipe buildings and how effectively they can trade vs. Queens, it's too safe, makes Zerg play very defensively unless you're Queen walking but there is definitely counters to that build.
- Nerf Blinding Cloud, make it so it only reduces range by 4, this would still cripple bio forces and anything that isn't inherently long range but the unit shuts down tanks so hard with this ability when abduct also dominates tank play, this is just to give Terran some more late game defensive abilities with tanks and shake up the meta a bit, Zerg looks very strong in the late game against Terran right now.
- Nerf the Lurker, either remove Adaptive Talons from the game entirely or reduce their HP. They are too good plain and simple. They are tanky as hell and can take a ton of storms or tank shots, have very long range, insane burst damage, and with AT it removes a core weakness inherent to siege units, and that's lack of mobility. Once you commit with your lurkers you should have to commit, not be able to micro them away from Biles.
Just tired of tanks being hard countered in every match, it's such a cool iconic unit and it's a shame that it's hard countered by practically everything in the Protoss arsenal and now Zerg has such easy reliable ways of shutting down tank play, this leads to a more pigeon holed approach for Terrans who will favor mine play over tanks.
I think some changes can be done simply for diversities sake, it's not like the changes can't be tweaked or reverted.
The nerf to blinding cloud seems a bit arbitrary if T isn't struggling vs Z. You can't just suggest nerfing a few units without offsetting with a nerf to the last race (or buffs to the races getting nerfed) unless you're saying T is underpowered...
|
I wonder how 2 supply siege tanks would work :D
|
On October 29 2021 09:12 jpg06051992 wrote:
I think a Void Ray nerf and a Lurker nerf would probably do alot to help the metagame out a bit, Zerg late game is very very dominant once Vipers and Lurkers hit the field, but without Vipers in their current iteration Skytoss would be nigh impossible to fight, but the unit also single handedly destroys mech so hard it makes it all but unviable in the top levels of play.
My solutions?
- Nerf Void Ray mobility or damage, probably damage that way they can still be a nimble unit that can micro away from AA but wouldn't be able to burst down a Lair in 8 seconds while overcharged. In it's current form it's just too nimble for how quickly it can snipe buildings and how effectively they can trade vs. Queens, it's too safe, makes Zerg play very defensively unless you're Queen walking but there is definitely counters to that build.
- Nerf Blinding Cloud, make it so it only reduces range by 4, this would still cripple bio forces and anything that isn't inherently long range but the unit shuts down tanks so hard with this ability when abduct also dominates tank play, this is just to give Terran some more late game defensive abilities with tanks and shake up the meta a bit, Zerg looks very strong in the late game against Terran right now.
- Nerf the Lurker, either remove Adaptive Talons from the game entirely or reduce their HP. They are too good plain and simple. They are tanky as hell and can take a ton of storms or tank shots, have very long range, insane burst damage, and with AT it removes a core weakness inherent to siege units, and that's lack of mobility. Once you commit with your lurkers you should have to commit, not be able to micro them away from Biles.
Just tired of tanks being hard countered in every match, it's such a cool iconic unit and it's a shame that it's hard countered by practically everything in the Protoss arsenal and now Zerg has such easy reliable ways of shutting down tank play, this leads to a more pigeon holed approach for Terrans who will favor mine play over tanks.
I think some changes can be done simply for diversities sake, it's not like the changes can't be tweaked or reverted.
TvZ is extremely well balanced right now.
I don't think a nerf to Zerg just to make tanks better is a good idea at all.
PvZ oriented nerfs to the lurker and voidray make sense though, I'm on board for all that.
Thoughts on the lurker:
The lurker is currently as much a brawler unit as a siege unit. If we want to change it for the sake of PvZ ground (with a solid nerf to skytoss too pls), there are two directions it could go.
Direction 1: Keep the fast burrow, but nerf the range. This would really solidify them in the brawler role, where Zerg would be encouraged to jump on positions quickly. This feels like it's closer to the role lurkers actually fill in practice right now.
Direction 2: Nerf mobility and burrow speed, keep range. This would settle them as a siege unit. In this case, I'd say with reduced mobility they'd probably even need +1 additional range (having them be immobile and still snipeable by ghosts as they are now would be stupid). This seems to be what people want the lurker to be?
|
On October 29 2021 06:59 IMSupervisor wrote:Show nested quote +On October 28 2021 22:07 InfCereal wrote:
Zerg did have an answer to air deathballs back at release with their stronger parasitic bomb.
Why was that nerfed again? Obliterating vikings making late game ZvT way too zerg favored?
If that's the case, then buffing PB might actually be an option. Vikings aren't used in ZvT since the thor buff, and at high levels, no one's making pure air. It's usually some combination of archons, high temp, disrupters, carriers, voids.
It's really just below that level that people are going pure air, and a PB buff would help that. Kind of like how you can't go hydras against air because storm exists - You wouldn't be able to go pure air because PB exists. If PB was a certain kill on a Medivac it might have more of an influence on TvZ than just the Viking interaction, however all TvZ interactions would be moot if PB ignored shields and directly reduced HP.
Forgot about medivacs.
Interacting with shields is an interesting idea. You could do something like +damage to shields, or ignore shields like you said.
It's an interesting idea, I think.
|
The very last thing PvZ needs is for Zerg to go back to having a one-button or one-unit counter to lategame Protoss armies. There was nothing more ludicrous than the era of watching entire maxed-out toss armies melting to the gloriously skillful Zerg technique of "building mass Infestors & then spamming magical air-destroying Infested Terrans until everything is dead." True lategame PvZ is as balanced and generally skill-based as it's ever been, with a good dance of Carriers/Tempests/Oracles/HTs/Archons vs Vipers/Infestors/Corruptors/Queens/Broodlords/etc.
Zerg and Terrans seem to always complain more loudly about things they find annoying about Protoss, but imo the ability for Protoss to get to a strong lategame army is a key feature of the matchup, is not negotiable, and removing it would make the matchup much worse.
There does seem to be a perfectly reasonable consensus on the current problems with the matchup, though, which boils down to (1) Void Ray & skytoss openings being massively stronger and more reliable than all other Protoss alternatives, & (2) the Lurker being too all-around strong against midgame Protoss ground armies, both of which have the effect of funnelling Protoss into rushing to build up lategame skytoss armies as soon as possible rather than going for ground-based or mid-game strats. Which does indeed get annoying for both sides.
The issue, then, is not with lategame PvZ itself, it's that too many PvZ games end up going to lategame. The solution is to encourage strategic diversity in both Protoss and Zerg in the earlier phases of the game, something that could theoretically be achieved by some combination of nerfing Void Rays and/or Lurkers and/or buffing alternatives on both sides. Obviously everything balance-related is very theoretical at this point though, and it might make more sense to think about map features that would help.
|
Amazes me that there hasn't been one whiff of balance changes on the side of Blizzard, not even a Reddit mention of what they see going on in pro matches and their opinions on the current meta.
Unless they have and I just couldn't find it of course but still, crazy that HOTS gets patches and has a very tiny pro scene (I almost never see Khaldor with over 1.5K) where the last Dreamhack finals between Clem and Serral had like 13K or something.
|
Hello Community,
I was asking if the over-use of Queens at pro level could be a consequence of the strenght of medivacs which are able to sustaining the bio-ball at 12 hp by seconds.
At pro level, It seems Zerg aren t able to catch and circle bio-ball with banes and glings and i think it s an issue as the TvZ is snow-balling so fast.
What s your opinions here ? Would you agree if Medivacs healing spell would be decrease in favor of a little bit bonus "regarding Marines base hit points" ?
Maybe Queens are necessary because they are used to wait hydralisks which are T2 unit ? (and because hydralisks aren t slow outside creep with the good upgrade)
|
Responding to above post, the *overuse of queens at pro level* as you call it has nothing to do with medivac or one unit in particular. Even less to do with the heal per second of medivac...? Honestly thats kinda confusing you would think that.
Queens are massed because they are the only accessible anti air unit zerg has for a long time,and the only anti air unit that isnt super fragile.
Without mass queens, here are many things that will give you nightmare :
- 2-3 oracle build with good control.
- Mass void ray builds - if you play too light on queen, one engagement will cost you the game right away.
- Battlecruiser opening. 5:30 one BC can be in your base. 6:20 or so, 2 BCs can be in your base. Fast hydra doesnt work, fast spire is too late, spores get maneuvred around. Mass queen is only answer. Again, like vs void ray, you need alot to be safe.
-Medivac dropping up and down near ledges. Without good number of queens, you have no way to push the medivac out, and marines can get insane efficiency vs zerglings using walls and ledges. Again, cannot have hydras or mutas in time for first 16marine 2 medivacs.
Also, unlike any other zerg unit, queen can only be made one at a time per hatchery, and cannot be made if youre researching lair, burrow, or overlord speed.
This means you have to produce them PROACTIVELY, instead of reactively. You cant wait to get the scout off and be like oh i need more queens now. You have to continually produce them all game to be safe.
Its alot safer to overproduce queens than to underproduce them.
So I would say the reason pros always mass queen in all matchups is because zerg ground to air is very weak other than queens, and that you cant produce queens quickly. Also air to ground from other race is too strong early game for how mobile it is.
Hydras are failing at their job hard. I would be surprised if hatchery tech hydra would even be overpowered. It would get figured out pretty fast.
If you nerf queen any more than now, zerg will be a dead race. You wont get past the early mid game on even terms ever.
|
On October 29 2021 15:51 AssyrianKing wrote:
I wonder how 2 supply siege tanks would work :D
This tank could have been controlled by infested Terrans :D
|
On October 30 2021 22:08 Snakestyle11 wrote:
Responding to above post, the *overuse of queens at pro level* as you call it has nothing to do with medivac or one unit in particular. Even less to do with the heal per second of medivac...? Honestly thats kinda confusing you would think that.
Queens are massed because they are the only accessible anti air unit zerg has for a long time,and the only anti air unit that isnt super fragile.
Without mass queens, here are many things that will give you nightmare :
- 2-3 oracle build with good control.
- Mass void ray builds - if you play too light on queen, one engagement will cost you the game right away.
- Battlecruiser opening. 5:30 one BC can be in your base. 6:20 or so, 2 BCs can be in your base. Fast hydra doesnt work, fast spire is too late, spores get maneuvred around. Mass queen is only answer. Again, like vs void ray, you need alot to be safe.
-Medivac dropping up and down near ledges. Without good number of queens, you have no way to push the medivac out, and marines can get insane efficiency vs zerglings using walls and ledges. Again, cannot have hydras or mutas in time for first 16marine 2 medivacs.
Also, unlike any other zerg unit, queen can only be made one at a time per hatchery, and cannot be made if youre researching lair, burrow, or overlord speed.
This means you have to produce them PROACTIVELY, instead of reactively. You cant wait to get the scout off and be like oh i need more queens now. You have to continually produce them all game to be safe.
Its alot safer to overproduce queens than to underproduce them.
So I would say the reason pros always mass queen in all matchups is because zerg ground to air is very weak other than queens, and that you cant produce queens quickly. Also air to ground from other race is too strong early game for how mobile it is.
Hydras are failing at their job hard. I would be surprised if hatchery tech hydra would even be overpowered. It would get figured out pretty fast.
If you nerf queen any more than now, zerg will be a dead race. You wont get past the early mid game on even terms ever.
I didn t say medivacs are the only reason of why Zerg could mass a single unit. I said as you are according in the end of your post, that Queens are enought beefy do deal with every other kind of air units (everyone know that) but also against bio-ball (thankfull to their healing spell). And you also admit that Queens are mandatory to push back medivacs during drops. as your explanations are long, I wonder if you don't take people for idiots
And i never talked about nerf Queens in this post. But of course since Zerg play-style depends of creep expand, Z is really struggling against air harrasement, that s why Queens seems so legit at your eyes
I talked about Queens in a scenarii in particulary, when Terran is pushing at the end of the mid game.
|
|
|
|
|
|
EPT
