EPTHow important is it for StarCraft II to get a new balance…
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SpecKROELLchen
Germany151 Posts
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Harris1st
Germany6900 Posts
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AssyrianKing
Australia2111 Posts
Edit: Mind I don't necessarily mean 6. | ||
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Captain Peabody
United States3099 Posts
On October 20 2021 17:56 Charoisaur wrote: PvZ is in one of the worst states it has ever been imo. For the other matchups I agree but PvZ really is shit right now I mean PvZ has always been the "problem" matchup since the beginning of SC2 and at every stage thereafter (and before that in BW). IMO it's now as balanced and stable as it's ever been, the problem, such as it is, being that it has been trending towards a relatively predictable set of relatively static strategies. We haven't seen that many games on the new maps, though, so maybe they'll shake things up a bit. But I mean, we should really all be thankful that we are no longer in an archon toilet or swarm host or blink all-in or infestors > everything meta anymore. Both players have a good shot at most stages of the game, even if void ray openings queen walks mass lurkers and carrier balls do recur a bit often for maximum enjoyment. | ||
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WombaT
Northern Ireland25076 Posts
On October 25 2021 23:35 Captain Peabody wrote: I mean PvZ has always been the "problem" matchup since the beginning of SC2 and at every stage thereafter (and before that in BW). IMO it's now as balanced and stable as it's ever been, the problem, such as it is, being that it has been trending towards a relatively predictable set of relatively static strategies. We haven't seen that many games on the new maps, though, so maybe they'll shake things up a bit. But I mean, we should really all be thankful that we are no longer in an archon toilet or swarm host or blink all-in or infestors > everything meta anymore. Both players have a good shot at most stages of the game, even if void ray openings queen walks mass lurkers and carrier balls do recur a bit often for maximum enjoyment. Has anything in SC2 had such a decline from ‘holy shit that was fucking cool’ the first time we saw it to ‘god this so so silly’ as the humble archon toilet? | ||
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FabledIntegral
United States9232 Posts
On October 25 2021 23:35 Captain Peabody wrote: I mean PvZ has always been the "problem" matchup since the beginning of SC2 and at every stage thereafter (and before that in BW). IMO it's now as balanced and stable as it's ever been, the problem, such as it is, being that it has been trending towards a relatively predictable set of relatively static strategies. We haven't seen that many games on the new maps, though, so maybe they'll shake things up a bit. But I mean, we should really all be thankful that we are no longer in an archon toilet or swarm host or blink all-in or infestors > everything meta anymore. Both players have a good shot at most stages of the game, even if void ray openings queen walks mass lurkers and carrier balls do recur a bit often for maximum enjoyment. I'd much rather play blink all-in, infestors, or soul train than skytoss vs lurker. It's arguably my least favorite iteration of the game AFTER swarm hosts. Slightly worse than brood lord infestor than me. Nothing will be as bad as swarm host though. Swarmhost was worse because it could be used potentially in all 3 MUs. | ||
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Snakestyle11
191 Posts
On October 20 2021 22:23 jpg06051992 wrote: Yea it used to be one of my favorite match ups to watch, now half the games are 28 + minute long posture contests. I wonder though what could actually be done to alleviate this, PvZ on Aligulac has Protoss at a 54 % win rate vs Zergs so nerfing the Lurker would be kind of unjustified (even though I do feel like they're too strong) without touching some aspects of Protoss, who is at a 49% win rate vs. Terran atm. So it would be pretty difficult to balance Protoss to be less dominant against Zerg while not gutting them against Terrans. No it wouldnt. Nerfing void rays would have almost 0 impact on PvT. | ||
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MarianoSC2
Slovakia1855 Posts
I actually thing balance is the best its been right now, would see it as something like P>Z=T=P and the PvZ is only slightly imbalanced on lower levels at PRO play it seems more or less even. The biggest problem is that the game is becoming stale and thus boring, at least for me. Balance patch might disrupt some of the very solid balance that was established but it might make the game a lot more interesting. I would trade perfect balance for more action and fun any time. | ||
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Harris1st
Germany6900 Posts
On October 26 2021 11:38 Snakestyle11 wrote: No it wouldnt. Nerfing void rays would have almost 0 impact on PvT. Prismatic allignment from +6 vs armored to + 3 vs armored (and the air weapon upgrades accordingly) would help Zerg a lot. The other option would be to make Hydras (+Shroud?) more viable | ||
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Fran_
United States1024 Posts
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Freeborn
Germany421 Posts
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Charoisaur
Germany15920 Posts
On October 26 2021 23:25 Freeborn wrote: The biggest Problem is that protoss is still not winning anyhting at all. blame Zest for throwing the last GSL finals | ||
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xelnaga_empire
627 Posts
The problem is PvsT, where Protoss continues to abuse blink DTs and voidray + shield battery rushes. Something needs to be done to give Terran a better chance to defend against blink DTs (as HeroMarine demonstrated on his stream, a PF and multiple WMs around the PF cannot stop about 6 blink DTs from killing the PF). And voidray + shield battery rush is terrible, because of the last buff to voidrays. | ||
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darklycid
3460 Posts
On October 27 2021 02:36 xelnaga_empire wrote: TvsZ is balanced and has been the most balanced non-mirror matchup in the last 2 years. I wouldn't touch that. The problem is PvsT, where Protoss continues to abuse blink DTs and voidray + shield battery rushes. Something needs to be done to give Terran a better chance to defend against blink DTs (as HeroMarine demonstrated on his stream, a PF and multiple WMs around the PF cannot stop about 6 blink DTs from killing the PF). And voidray + shield battery rush is terrible, because of the last buff to voidrays. While I agree that blink dt is too good in the late game and I didn't see Gabe's clip, a lib and 3-4wm actually do a pretty good job vs dts from what I've seen. Obviously a pf will still die when like 8-12 dts blink on it but the dts most of the time die too and 8-12 dts is quite the investment. | ||
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InfCereal
Canada1759 Posts
On October 26 2021 23:25 Freeborn wrote: The biggest Problem is that protoss is still not winning anyhting at all. Protoss has won 7 of 17 premier tournaments this year. They also have 7 second places. If we want to talk about winning tournaments, terran has only won 3. | ||
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darklycid
3460 Posts
On October 27 2021 04:30 InfCereal wrote: Protoss has won 7 of 17 premier tournaments this year. They also have 7 second places. If we want to talk about winning tournaments, terran has only won 3. I was told only one player winning doesn't count (and i don't count NA let's be real)  | ||
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meadbert
United States681 Posts
Winning percentages in early rounds do not mean much if races are not equally represented in the early rounds. As an extreme example, imagine you invited Serral and the 31 best Protoss players to a tournament. If Serral has the 1 seed and defeats the 32 seed in the first round and 16 seed in the second round before falling to the 8 seed then this would not prove that Zerg is overpowered vs Protoss. If anything it is evidence in the other direction. There are a lot of tournaments where Zergs are underrepresented and then go on to have winning records because Serral/Reynor do well. This does not prove that Zerg is overpowered. A lot of Protosses like to look at Aliguac's rankings at the top and say it proves that "at the top" Protoss is under powered. There is only 1 Protoss in the top 8 so that shows that Protoss is under powered right? This gets tricky. If you look at the PvT matchup you will see that there are 4 Terran and 4 Protoss with a rating over 3k. If you look at PvZ you will see 3 Protoss and 3 Zerg over 3k. So if PvT and PvZ are even at the top how is Protoss underpowered overall at the top? The answer is PvP. There are no Protoss players whose PvP is over 3k because that matchup rewards skill less than the other matchups. The result of this that top Protoss players like Zest, Trap, Parting, Zoun and Showtime actually do pretty well against Terran and Zerg, but on average they most struggle against other Protoss players. This isn't because Protoss is over powered. It is because the PvP is not rewarding their skill as much as the other matchups. Really, blizzard has done a very good job of balance at the top. None of this applies to lower leagues and just because a meta is balanced does not mean it is fun. I am already on record as hating proxy cannon anything and proxy battery anything, but we should give them credit for what they have done which is balance 3 very different races very equally. | ||
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deacon.frost
Czech Republic12129 Posts
On October 28 2021 00:00 meadbert wrote: Balance is actually good right now. Aligulac is a great source of information, but some of it is misinterpreted. Winning percentages in early rounds do not mean much if races are not equally represented in the early rounds. As an extreme example, imagine you invited Serral and the 31 best Protoss players to a tournament. If Serral has the 1 seed and defeats the 32 seed in the first round and 16 seed in the second round before falling to the 8 seed then this would not prove that Zerg is overpowered vs Protoss. If anything it is evidence in the other direction. There are a lot of tournaments where Zergs are underrepresented and then go on to have winning records because Serral/Reynor do well. This does not prove that Zerg is overpowered. A lot of Protosses like to look at Aliguac's rankings at the top and say it proves that "at the top" Protoss is under powered. There is only 1 Protoss in the top 8 so that shows that Protoss is under powered right? This gets tricky. If you look at the PvT matchup you will see that there are 4 Terran and 4 Protoss with a rating over 3k. If you look at PvZ you will see 3 Protoss and 3 Zerg over 3k. So if PvT and PvZ are even at the top how is Protoss underpowered overall at the top? The answer is PvP. There are no Protoss players whose PvP is over 3k because that matchup rewards skill less than the other matchups. The result of this that top Protoss players like Zest, Trap, Parting, Zoun and Showtime actually do pretty well against Terran and Zerg, but on average they most struggle against other Protoss players. This isn't because Protoss is over powered. It is because the PvP is not rewarding their skill as much as the other matchups. Really, blizzard has done a very good job of balance at the top. None of this applies to lower leagues and just because a meta is balanced does not mean it is fun. I am already on record as hating proxy cannon anything and proxy battery anything, but we should give them credit for what they have done which is balance 3 very different races very equally. If the game is balanced then the representation of victors and runner ups should be balanced too over the time. It's not. We can discuss the representation of the top players over the region locked areas, but when region locked areas clashes it still doesn't looked balanced. And t o be fair, most fans don't care about balance, they want to see their race to win some big stuff. The last 7 World Champions were Zergs. Terrans have at least the Code S. Protoss players have what, NA? Edit> Out of those 7 WC titles for Zergs we had soO, Dark, Rogue(2 IEMs, 1 Blizzcon), Serral and Reynor. So you cannot even blame it on a dominance of 1 player when 5 different Zergs dominate the most prestigious title of them all where all the excuses fade away. | ||
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meadbert
United States681 Posts
On October 28 2021 00:50 deacon.frost wrote: If the game is balanced then the representation of victors and runner ups should be balanced too over the time. It's not. We can discuss the representation of the top players over the region locked areas, but when region locked areas clashes it still doesn't looked balanced. And t o be fair, most fans don't care about balance, they want to see their race to win some big stuff. The last 7 World Champions were Zergs. Terrans have at least the Code S. Protoss players have what, NA? Edit> Out of those 7 WC titles for Zergs we had soO, Dark, Rogue(2 IEMs, 1 Blizzcon), Serral and Reynor. So you cannot even blame it on a dominance of 1 player when 5 different Zergs dominate the most prestigious title of them all where all the excuses fade away. So you are giving the standard Protoss explanation and there is a lot of truth to what you are saying. It is harder for Protoss to win major tournaments, but the reason is neither PvT nor PvZ. The reason Protoss players struggle to win major tournaments in PvP. The problem is the best Protoss players can be eliminated early by worse players in an unfortunate PvP. It is crazy that a regular GSL has not gone to a Protoss player since today's freshmen in college were in middle school, but it may not be because PvZ or PvT are imbalanced. If you look at TvX you will see the matchup with the least dominance is TvP. Marus has 3239 in TvT Clem has 3327 in TvZ Clem only has 3156 in TvP Again, this is not because Protoss is OP vs Terran. Zest is only 3132 in PvT so Clem is still favored vs Zest. The issue is that Protoss introduces a bit of luck into the matchup which means making a long run in a tournament is harder for a good Protoss player. | ||
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FabledIntegral
United States9232 Posts
On October 26 2021 11:38 Snakestyle11 wrote: No it wouldnt. Nerfing void rays would have almost 0 impact on PvT. It wouldn't definitely impact the ability to proxy void. The mere threat of a build, even if it's not performed, will have an impact on the game. Think of TvP in BW, where T has to prepare for fast DT regardless of whether or not the opponent actually goes fast DT. On October 27 2021 02:36 xelnaga_empire wrote: TvsZ is balanced and has been the most balanced non-mirror matchup in the last 2 years. I wouldn't touch that. The problem is PvsT, where Protoss continues to abuse blink DTs and voidray + shield battery rushes. Something needs to be done to give Terran a better chance to defend against blink DTs (as HeroMarine demonstrated on his stream, a PF and multiple WMs around the PF cannot stop about 6 blink DTs from killing the PF). And voidray + shield battery rush is terrible, because of the last buff to voidrays. While this is extremely surprising to me unless the blink was used to actually dodge the widow mine shots, I don't think it's a terrible thing for Terran to have to be more prepared against blink DTs late game. Don't get me wrong, super frustrating to play against myself when I played as Terran vs Protoss lategame, but I wouldn't put blink DTs on par with anything like lurker defense or some substantially bigger issues with the game right now. | ||
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