EPTHow important is it for StarCraft II to get a new balance…
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Vinekh
131 Posts
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Vision_
870 Posts
But as the game is so much faster, there s no reason to commit in the mid game, hiding an hatchery inside his own basis. I m pretty sure as the economy goes on, Zerg player hasn t the option to make more units with this kind of strategy (and paying a queen per basis) like in hots era, probably because of the un-necessary risk to run in bankrupt (in doing that) I think it s a consequence of reducing half of mineral field to 900 | ||
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jpg06051992
United States580 Posts
On October 30 2021 22:53 Vinekh wrote: Have you seen what the Blizzard 'quality' is lately ? I'd prefer if they give SC2 the BW treatment and leave it as it is. Sigh, more or less this. I wish there was a passionate and qualified group of people on a balance team, but we know there is neither anymore. It's not like balance is bad or anything, I actually really like the expanded map pool. With such a big pool there is more room for experimental maps that promote new strategies and you can't simply veto them all out. A good direction for the community I think. | ||
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Ivymeilna
6 Posts
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deacon.frost
Czech Republic12129 Posts
On October 30 2021 22:08 Snakestyle11 wrote: Responding to above post, the *overuse of queens at pro level* as you call it has nothing to do with medivac or one unit in particular. Even less to do with the heal per second of medivac...? Honestly thats kinda confusing you would think that. Queens are massed because they are the only accessible anti air unit zerg has for a long time,and the only anti air unit that isnt super fragile. Without mass queens, here are many things that will give you nightmare : - 2-3 oracle build with good control. - Mass void ray builds - if you play too light on queen, one engagement will cost you the game right away. - Battlecruiser opening. 5:30 one BC can be in your base. 6:20 or so, 2 BCs can be in your base. Fast hydra doesnt work, fast spire is too late, spores get maneuvred around. Mass queen is only answer. Again, like vs void ray, you need alot to be safe. -Medivac dropping up and down near ledges. Without good number of queens, you have no way to push the medivac out, and marines can get insane efficiency vs zerglings using walls and ledges. Again, cannot have hydras or mutas in time for first 16marine 2 medivacs. Also, unlike any other zerg unit, queen can only be made one at a time per hatchery, and cannot be made if youre researching lair, burrow, or overlord speed. This means you have to produce them PROACTIVELY, instead of reactively. You cant wait to get the scout off and be like oh i need more queens now. You have to continually produce them all game to be safe. Its alot safer to overproduce queens than to underproduce them. So I would say the reason pros always mass queen in all matchups is because zerg ground to air is very weak other than queens, and that you cant produce queens quickly. Also air to ground from other race is too strong early game for how mobile it is. Hydras are failing at their job hard. I would be surprised if hatchery tech hydra would even be overpowered. It would get figured out pretty fast. If you nerf queen any more than now, zerg will be a dead race. You wont get past the early mid game on even terms ever. PRos build queens simply because they're crazy strong. Also they don't cost larvae which is a scarce resource at the start of the game. And they cost just minerals. They are the bandaid holding Zerg toghether and they need nerf as they have all them roles. Healer, macro booster, vision booster, movement booster, defender and sometimes even attacker. Also plenty units attack them instead of lings/banes(e.g. tanks), so they're great at tanking. (and duh, when nerfing queens you would have to solve the issue you're addressing) | ||
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InfCereal
Canada1759 Posts
What is this, 2010? Jesus christ | ||
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Ciaus_Dronu
South Africa1848 Posts
On November 01 2021 18:55 deacon.frost wrote: PRos build queens simply because they're crazy strong. Also they don't cost larvae which is a scarce resource at the start of the game. And they cost just minerals. They are the bandaid holding Zerg toghether and they need nerf as they have all them roles. Healer, macro booster, vision booster, movement booster, defender and sometimes even attacker. Also plenty units attack them instead of lings/banes(e.g. tanks), so they're great at tanking. (and duh, when nerfing queens you would have to solve the issue you're addressing) If you nerfed queens, you'd probably need to buff literally every single other aspect of pre-hive-tech Zerg. Especially with the state of stargate play, you'd basically just remove Zerg (even more, given it's already disappearing at some levels of play) from the game. | ||
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jpg06051992
United States580 Posts
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nimbim
Germany985 Posts
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RogerChillingworth
Chad3063 Posts
But unfortunately the core design of the alien races is poopy relative to their predecessors. I love SC2 and think its great in its own right, especially as a spectator, but not a fraction of what it could be imo. | ||
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Vision_
870 Posts
I heard here that Ladder is also in a very bad shape in ZvZ, i.e if you get Lurkers first, you will win the game very probably. In fact it s not only about PvZ... And it s also ugly to see at pro level | ||
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Deleted User 132135
702 Posts
On September 09 2021 10:16 RogerChillingworth wrote: I consistently think that widow mines, banelings and disruptors just make for exceptionally frustrating games where shit swings in a millisecond because of a unit that isn't even difficult to control in the first place. I think that's the biggest issue in SC2--personally, humbly. That and just Protoss in general being pretty poorly designed compared to its predecessor. But these are no root issues, hence you cannot fix them alone. The question is why those units exist in that way, which ultimately leads back to Terran bio firepower density + stim packs + healing + pickup by medivacs. This combination combines ultimative movement speed, ultimate firepower, the units can basically even fly with medivacs, it includes the free unit mechanic already in the early to midgame, with medivac healing which keeps units in the game that usually would be taken off (hence this is an inverted free unit mechanic). If you design a race like Terran that overpowered in mechanics of basic units, not spell-casters or slow moving lategame composition but most basic army that you start building from minute one -> then you have not much choice but giving the other races something to cover that and start the vicious circle that those things must be covered too. The only way to ever fix starcraft 2 is to get over MMMM mechanics and remove its overpowered counters, what even mutalisks take part in (as well as baneling), which became in itself problematically balanced units. Anyway the core issue is visible if you watch an automated AI fight of a stalker based Protoss army vs an MMM based Terran army. The terran army loses basically 0-3 units (due to inversed free unit mechanic) while protoss loses 25 stalkers. This is how you can make the core issue, which are root, visible. But Team Liquid Terran fanatics in users and staff deny the root issue of starcraft since release of LOTV, when they were finalized and manifested to stay forever. The game is lost since and was not worth to continue to stick with much tbh. | ||
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Deleted User 132135
702 Posts
This way zerg cannot have anti-air other than queen, which together with drop defence and general terran MMMM overpoweredness in early and midgames caused the queens current position, another offset which is not root, hence noone needs to complain about the queen without addressing it's roots too. The correct design & balance position of the hydralisk is the position it had in Broodwar. A tier one unit that is slightly ahead of the marine. Here again the terran MMM(+M) design likely prevented the hydralisk to stay at its original position. Bio would overrule tier one hydras in speed, dps, effective hitpoints (with medivacs) and the ability to become flying units with medivacs to overcome cliffs and walled ramps and what not. The hydralisk simply cant be balanced around currently existing MMMM overpoweredness in tier 1. Fixing those two things. 1. break Apart terran MMMM overpoweredness and its counters, then 2. then put the hydralisk to its correct position in the game, would be able to fix Starcraft 2. And there is no single other option to fix this game other than doing those 2 things. | ||
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Vision_
870 Posts
In slowing the game to fast (instead of very fast), community could test hard the balance deepest. Even if i m Terran biasis i can admit Medivacs sustain is too strong while hydralisks are too fragile, plus they haven t a real advantage over Marines+Medivacs. To me, Fix Bio ball consist probably to decrease the Medivacs effectiveness. The discussion of Mines is something else because I consider, as banelings that there s a problem in term of supply cost (still in head of slowing the game). Tweaks with slower game / small modification of the overall unit range scale by +10% (not for all units ofc example: marines) AOE issues(***) Banelings : supply cost 0.5 to 1, bigger box size, armor = 1, hp balance. (***) Mines : supply cost 1 to 1.5 BIO-BALL and linked Medivacs : 12 hp/s decreasing to 8 hp/s Marines Stimpack : Effectiveness reduce from 50% to 35%(***), +5 hp for marines (maybe???) Hydralisks (still fresh idea) : Range increase from 6 to 7 (dps balanced against marines+medivacs, who is better idk) Adrenals glands : a little bit decreasing Lurkers : 20+10 against armored to 15+15 against armored (Range Unchanged - try to find his place) Infestators : Return of Infested Terrans Less Air units, somes tweaks, mainly support and swiss-knife units except for mutalisks, phoenixes and oracle (merge voyd ray with oracle) No rapid fire When tumors are killed, they can respawn from the last one. Mana adjustement. Goes on. | ||
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Deleted User 132135
702 Posts
Problem is stubborn terrans in this forum believe Z/P are the problematic races for this game, while actually terran is. Also the changes necessary would probably ask for an SC3 more than changing the fundamentals that much. So I support those who say let this game die in peace. On the other hand, is that actually true? Do some changes to bio and roach/hydras and so on require SC3? I am not sure about that. It would be possible, but the will is lacking I guess. Terran lays the foundation that forces the other races to be problematic with MMM that is not only little but to such an extent overpowered, compared to the scarcity of requirements (time, resources) it needs, that this breaks the balance of the game. The bioball is simply being fixed by removing the marauder from the equation, means from the tier 1 early game. The marauder should get into the position that the Zerg Hydralisk is in now, a later addition to make bio viable longer: Marine Tier 1, Marauder Tier 2, Ghost Tier 3. The Hellbat could be moved to tier one instead probably, which then as well allows smoother transitions into mech with a bio start. Of course we cant fix that equation now, cause it depends on new position of roach and hydralisk. In current position of zerg units, the marauder is problematic. The removal of the marauder from tier one could allow harsh nerfs of banelings, queen, adepts, and so on. An overpowered combination of units like MMM(+M) would have to be gas restricted, in Starcraft 2 standards, which it is not. A mineral restricted MMM is bad game design, as minerals are by map design less scarce than gas, and in addition to that the mule mechanic in combination with that creates volatility, where you do not want it, so that advantages and disadvantages do scale more than they should and comebacks are less likely, so we see one sided, frustrating matches, which is the reason why people turned their back to SC2 already in WOL. And there is much more to this. The whole structure of the game evolves around terran bio and its overpoweredness. | ||
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BonitiilloO
Dominican Republic626 Posts
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Got2Be
3 Posts
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angry_maia
327 Posts
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Beelzebub1
1004 Posts
On February 01 2022 04:38 angry_maia wrote: what's wrong with letting roaches shoot up in exchange for a queen range nerf. There was a time when Roaches were considered a useless unit in every match up. Then they got +1 range, and became a staple unit in every match up. SC2 balance is best done in very small increments, radical redesigns will require multiple patches to balance out at the minimum. Oh and Queen range was already nerfed in the last patch and isn't even close to the issue with the unit. The issue is how tanky they are and how strong transfuse is. If the Queen get's nerfed again, a better nerf would be to make it either armored or light, so that units like the Void Ray/Stalkers can fight them straight up or so Hellions/Adepts can bully them a bit easer. | ||
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nesmah
France26 Posts
- rework of the lurker (remove fast burrow ?) - rework of the void ray (speed ? cost ?) - rework of the battery shield (build only in a range of a nexus ?) - rework of the thor (useless unit for its cost) what else ? | ||
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