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On September 08 2021 06:41 91matt wrote:Show nested quote +On September 08 2021 06:23 freelifeffs wrote:
this is gonna be an unpopular opinion but zerg suffers. zerg is just getting rekt unless its serral, reynor, dark or rogue. pick any random spot in gm or even master if you want and chances are very high that this guy has by far the best winrate against zerg. just humor yourself and try it. it took me 11 random profile openings until i found someone for whom it wasnt the case. doesnt matter if terran or protoss btw. last time i checked rankedftw (why is it down btw?) zerg percentage in gm and master was around 20%. dont think any race has ever been this low. pretty much every tournament zerg gets rekt before the ro8. so yes i believe we need a balance patch. not only because of balance because sure, the top zergs are still winning stuff sometimes, but more because of fun. playing sc2 is not fun atm when you are zerg. its a miserable experience. legit miserable. i was consistently at 5400k mmr for the past 3 years. since that patch some seasons ago i struggle to reach 4900. its painful.
now go ahead and flame me. i probably deserve it lol zvt is really hard on this map pool/patch, overall its a good matchup but very hard. zvp protoss players are basically playing single player at this point, they don't have to scout/worry about much except queen walks, and if you're not a top player its very hard to not just get rolled over by air units. It honestly looks pathetic when someone tries an early game all in on a protoss, how easy it is to hold it. playing zerg is absolute misery you're 100% right, there won't be many z players left if they don't patch something
Zerg being too weak is an.. interesting take. I will say that of all the races, Zerg is the one that most needs a fundamental redesign. Too bad it will never get one.
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The game is basically fine for 99.99% of us. For maybe 10 people in the world it needs a balance patch.
I'd be happy with just more regular maps.
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On September 08 2021 07:44 Vintage98XX wrote:
The game is basically fine for 99.99% of us. For maybe 10 people in the world it needs a balance patch.
I'd be happy with just more regular maps.
it is exactly the other way round. game is fine for 10 people, for 99% its cancer.
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On September 08 2021 07:27 QOGQOG wrote:Show nested quote +On September 08 2021 06:41 91matt wrote:On September 08 2021 06:23 freelifeffs wrote:
this is gonna be an unpopular opinion but zerg suffers. zerg is just getting rekt unless its serral, reynor, dark or rogue. pick any random spot in gm or even master if you want and chances are very high that this guy has by far the best winrate against zerg. just humor yourself and try it. it took me 11 random profile openings until i found someone for whom it wasnt the case. doesnt matter if terran or protoss btw. last time i checked rankedftw (why is it down btw?) zerg percentage in gm and master was around 20%. dont think any race has ever been this low. pretty much every tournament zerg gets rekt before the ro8. so yes i believe we need a balance patch. not only because of balance because sure, the top zergs are still winning stuff sometimes, but more because of fun. playing sc2 is not fun atm when you are zerg. its a miserable experience. legit miserable. i was consistently at 5400k mmr for the past 3 years. since that patch some seasons ago i struggle to reach 4900. its painful.
now go ahead and flame me. i probably deserve it lol zvt is really hard on this map pool/patch, overall its a good matchup but very hard. zvp protoss players are basically playing single player at this point, they don't have to scout/worry about much except queen walks, and if you're not a top player its very hard to not just get rolled over by air units. It honestly looks pathetic when someone tries an early game all in on a protoss, how easy it is to hold it. playing zerg is absolute misery you're 100% right, there won't be many z players left if they don't patch something Zerg being too weak is an.. interesting take. I will say that of all the races, Zerg is the one that most needs a fundamental redesign. Too bad it will never get one.
Protoss is an eldritch concoction of whole army teleports, battery overcharges, a-move deathballs and 1-hit game ending disruptors. Zerg has major over-reliance on the queen and poor AA otherwise, but other than that their design in this phase of LotV is pretty solid IMO. And Terran has always been at least decent design wise.
Protoss is a mess.
And currently, it's a mess that's just way too effective compared to T and Z for much of the playerbase, including a fair bit of the pro scene.
So we get the unenviable position of watching mostly games with the race that wins through proxy voidrays and teleporting carrier armies.
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A new patch is essential for the game to continue on. Something has to be done about void ray/battery, mass queen-oriented builds (queen walks, etc.), lurkers, and protoss air. All of these things are being heavily exploited on the ladder and in pro games, and it's sucking all of the fun out of the game.
PvZ in general just needs a massive amount of help. It's the worst it's been in a long time.
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Uh yes, very much so in fact, ZvP is going through a very big metagame drought where Lurkers are so strong that they make Protoss ground armies obsolete, with the Viper exasperating the situation big time. This is making Protoss play very defensively and turtle to a big air army, which then becomes so strong that it requires extremely precise playing on the Zergs end to counter an army that essentially uses 100 apm to control and the Zerg can die even if completely prepared for it.
It's bad, there needs to be a patch, or at least community feedback on the issue.
But for there to be community feedback there needs to be a balance team who cares/has a vision for the game, and honestly I doubt there is anyone even in charge of SC2 balance anymore, it's considered a classic and there will almost certainly be zero changes unless it is like an absolutely game breaking problem.
Blizzards current stance on Lurkers in ZvP is probably along the lines of, "Well Carriers are really cool units, why is everyone complaining that they are the go to?" Or some other Blizzard logic.
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On September 08 2021 11:54 Beelzebub1 wrote:
Uh yes, very much so in fact, ZvP is going through a very big metagame drought where Lurkers are so strong that they make Protoss ground armies obsolete, with the Viper exasperating the situation big time. This is making Protoss play very defensively and turtle to a big air army, which then becomes so strong that it requires extremely precise playing on the Zergs end to counter an army that essentially uses 100 apm to control and the Zerg can die even if completely prepared for it.
It's bad, there needs to be a patch, or at least community feedback on the issue.
But for there to be community feedback there needs to be a balance team who cares/has a vision for the game, and honestly I doubt there is anyone even in charge of SC2 balance anymore, it's considered a classic and there will almost certainly be zero changes unless it is like an absolutely game breaking problem.
Blizzards current stance on Lurkers in ZvP is probably along the lines of, "Well Carriers are really cool units, why is everyone complaining that they are the go to?" Or some other Blizzard logic.
There is no Blizzard, at least not for StarCraft. Absolutely noone left at blizzard can even come close to know anything about the meta game or balance of starcraft2. Our only chance is ESL talking to pros and personalities and coming in with a list of changes for blizzard, then they will assign some random dev that knows nothing about this game the task of implementing the changes and releasing it to prod.
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On September 08 2021 08:12 Ciaus_Dronu wrote:Show nested quote +On September 08 2021 07:27 QOGQOG wrote:On September 08 2021 06:41 91matt wrote:On September 08 2021 06:23 freelifeffs wrote:
this is gonna be an unpopular opinion but zerg suffers. zerg is just getting rekt unless its serral, reynor, dark or rogue. pick any random spot in gm or even master if you want and chances are very high that this guy has by far the best winrate against zerg. just humor yourself and try it. it took me 11 random profile openings until i found someone for whom it wasnt the case. doesnt matter if terran or protoss btw. last time i checked rankedftw (why is it down btw?) zerg percentage in gm and master was around 20%. dont think any race has ever been this low. pretty much every tournament zerg gets rekt before the ro8. so yes i believe we need a balance patch. not only because of balance because sure, the top zergs are still winning stuff sometimes, but more because of fun. playing sc2 is not fun atm when you are zerg. its a miserable experience. legit miserable. i was consistently at 5400k mmr for the past 3 years. since that patch some seasons ago i struggle to reach 4900. its painful.
now go ahead and flame me. i probably deserve it lol zvt is really hard on this map pool/patch, overall its a good matchup but very hard. zvp protoss players are basically playing single player at this point, they don't have to scout/worry about much except queen walks, and if you're not a top player its very hard to not just get rolled over by air units. It honestly looks pathetic when someone tries an early game all in on a protoss, how easy it is to hold it. playing zerg is absolute misery you're 100% right, there won't be many z players left if they don't patch something Zerg being too weak is an.. interesting take. I will say that of all the races, Zerg is the one that most needs a fundamental redesign. Too bad it will never get one. Protoss is an eldritch concoction of whole army teleports, battery overcharges, a-move deathballs and 1-hit game ending disruptors. Zerg has major over-reliance on the queen and poor AA otherwise, but other than that their design in this phase of LotV is pretty solid IMO. And Terran has always been at least decent design wise. Protoss is a mess. And currently, it's a mess that's just way too effective compared to T and Z for much of the playerbase, including a fair bit of the pro scene. So we get the unenviable position of watching mostly games with the race that wins through proxy voidrays and teleporting carrier armies.
I'd love Protoss to get a redesign as well, I just don't think it needs one as much. Just something to nerf proxied batteries would fix most legitimate complaints. Moving warp gate later in the tech tree and giving Protoss an actual tier 3 spellcaster would be nice, and would admittedly require big changes, but I don't think those are as necessary.
What you're posting is a combination of balance whine (Zerg has rapid repositioning with creep speed and nydus, Terran with stim and medivac boost, so I'm not sure why recall is so unspeakably horrible) and fundamental design issues not specific to Protoss (the 'horrible horrible damage" of disruptors is not fun, but widow mines and banes end the game in faster and even less interesting ways).
Whereas Zerg can't readily be fixed. Getting rid of or redesigning the queen requires changing not just multiple units but a lot of basic mechanics. And even doing that wouldn't address the fundamental weirdness of a race that seems to be about out expanding your opponent and therefore being able to wear them down through inefficient trades then switching over the mid to lategame into having the most cost efficient units in the game. I mean, I get that they need something to break turtled positions, but the best spellcasters in the game + ways of generating infinite free units + lurkers? Feels like at least one of those should be trimmed.
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PvsT is horribly balanced now, in favor of Protoss. We are seeing voidray + shield battery rush over and over again in PvsT because the matchup favors Protoss and cheaper voidrays. And EU GM is overrun by Protoss. SMH.
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I think the current state of balance is the best it has ever been so I think it was a good time to stop patching the game.
Balancing should be done via maps
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Increase the cost of shield batteries to 150 minerals and I think the game is in a decent spot.
And we need to have map rotation again, playing on the same maps gets stale.
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If the game isn't balanced for pro-level play then pro-level play becomes a farce, so any suggestion that we should make balance changes based on statistics outside of pro-level play isn't one that I would support. Pro-level statistics don't currently suggest that there is a balance problem, so I don't think any changes need to be made for balance purposes alone.
That doesn't mean the game couldn't do with some changes to shake up the meta. For example, it is becoming pretty tiresome seeing Zerg players try to use Queen walks to end ZvP games before the Protoss can get to Skytoss, whilst also knowing that the Protoss has no option but to go Skytoss because of how badly Protoss ground armies compete with Lurker/Viper. This would require a dedicated team to properly assess the changes and their impact, however, and I don't believe Blizzard is willing to dedicate those kinds of resources to a legacy game.
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the game is in the best state it has ever been in terms of diversity of strategies. as a protoss player however, more uses for the Tempests would be welcome.
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On September 08 2021 19:50 her0craft wrote:
the game is in the best state it has ever been in terms of diversity of strategies.
Hahahahahaha.
It's funny when you can recognize that someone's only ever played Lotv ever so clearly from one post alone.
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Under 6500 Protoss have it far easier than the other races. They have extremely abusive, easy to execute all ins that are very difficult to defend. You also can't punish them because of the defensive power of batteries in general let alone the addition of the super battery. If they don't all in the power of the batteries allow them to turtle extremely easy. They get up to a maxxed out army and they essentially A move and throw out some storms. The army T and Z need to use to counter this A move is complex and extremely difficult to control. For this reason Protoss players have flooded the ladder between 4000-6500 MMR and the ladder in NA is essentially cancer.
This being said at the very upper echelon of pro play this is irrelevant. The T and Z players can hold off the all ins with relative ease normally. Also they can control the late game armies well enough to pick the protoss apart. Or their multi tasking is so god like they can pull the Toss apart before he gets to that level. The game is broken on a fundamental level that can't be fixed. Under the upper echelon of pro players Protoss is simply easier to play and that is a fact. At the pro level Protoss can't quite compete with Terran and Zerg without a high level of trickery involved. This is a fundamental game design flaw and at this point can't be fixed.
Blizzard has abandoned the game so no balance patch is coming. For RTS fans we now sit and wait for Frost Giant to hopefully finish their game and it be awesome. For Starcraft fans I am sorry.
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^ What he said, we'll just have to wait until a real development team to design a better RTS and have a better relationship with the community.
By the way, I don't think a game having a legacy title necessarily means thats the reason for no balance patch. HOTS is a legacy game and get's monthly or bi monthly patches, the last one of which really shook up the meta game and was great for overall balance.
SC2 needs the same treatment, people still play and watch this game.
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Northern Ireland26243 Posts
Actually getting a new balance patch, right now I’m not sure.
The ability to get new balance patches, as an option to tweak something broken, or merely to freshen things up is absolutely critical.
Especially as the mechanism to balance around maps doesn’t quite work the same as it does in BW
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Looking at second match Special against Bunny in DH, we could get an awesome balance if vikings wouldn t get a +8 bonus againt mechanical, adressed especially to fight Gold armada. This is the kind of adjustement (Patch 3.8.0 [2] - Assault mode auto-attack now deals bonus (+8 vs mechanical) damage.) that have an unexcepected issue, and if not patched, could reveal another part of strategy in TvT.
Special tried to counter a classic push from a Terran (bio/tanks/vikings/1 or 2 ravens) with banshee turning around Bunny's army, it was really interesting and Special do really well in this game even if at the end, he loses it.
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New patches are important moreso for fresh gameplay than balance itself most of the time. Even if the balance was 'perfect', the game would get stale the longer the meta gets developed. New maps help, but sc2 has so much mobility that it's not as viable to truly create new experiences as it would be otherwise (though what we get as new maps is also incredibly conservative so there is that).
Look at any other popular game and new patches will regularly shake things up to give players new tools to play with. That's just how game development works these days, bring in variety through new content.
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well IDK if it's important or not what I'm sure though is that blizzard pretty much-abandoned anything and everything related to SC2 and SCR and RTS in general for that matter.
Even if we could discuss interesting points about balance they wouldn't change anything.
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EPT
