EPTThere's a weird amount of disproportionately combative replies to OP simply voicing his thoughts.
Everything wrong with SC2 (and how to fix it) - Page 3
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Concentration
Australia18 Posts
There's a weird amount of disproportionately combative replies to OP simply voicing his thoughts. | ||
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aringadingding
480 Posts
On October 08 2020 17:54 Concentration wrote: I thought OP has some interesting takes. I don't agree with it all but there is certainly some things I've thought about myself. My biggest complaint about Starcraft 2 at the moment is that it feels more like OSU + competitive fps in terms of precision of clicks required rather than a RTS. This is the biggest reason I get a lot more enjoyment out of Wc3/AoE over Sc2. I do love all the games though. There's a weird amount of disproportionately combative replies to OP simply voicing his thoughts. I disagree. Its not a weird amount i would say. Had his writing been a blog wherein he at the beginning indicated what he was about to write was something he was experiencing sc2 and how his suggested changes would make it fun for him - then the replies would have been very different in tone, most likely. But this is not the case. He present stuff, which are personal and subjective, as they are some general consensus. And that kind of thing can trigger people to respond. For example, if i were to post something like "what is wrong in country X and how to fix it" and then start to list what i think is good for a country, what i like to have in a society and then write 100 pages about it, mostly filled with cherry picking stuff and makes some quasi-reasoning to support my thoughts and take stuff out of context and being in general obviously subjective. Then people would either get triggered and comment all what is wrong with my reasoning or discard it completely. And the reason for that would be the ambition of the text. Had I instead started with the article saying "this is what i think" and then be very clear in the text what is actual, real, facts and what are my opinion and feelings etc. So, because of his ambition and tone, it is not surprising people respond the way they do. However, even though the replies are negative i think most are having a rather polite tone, or at least not hating. The text is like reading something from a person who thought that a lot of text makes it analytical and well thought out, and this is ofc not the case. But the text was for sure a nice mixed bag about what he likes and dislikes. The "analytical" parts or when he arguments about his ideas.... thats when it breaks down. It lacks too much. So it becomes "impossible", or too time-consuming, to give a serious or good reply regarding that. | ||
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Concentration
Australia18 Posts
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tigon_ridge
482 Posts
On October 08 2020 17:54 Concentration wrote: I thought OP has some interesting takes. I don't agree with it all but there is certainly some things I've thought about myself. My biggest complaint about Starcraft 2 at the moment is that it feels more like OSU + competitive fps in terms of precision of clicks required rather than a RTS. This is the biggest reason I get a lot more enjoyment out of Wc3/AoE over Sc2. I do love all the games though. SC2 gives the most complete package of competitive gaming. There is no game whose skill set cannot be transferred over to SC, whereas the converse is not true. SC requires competence in every aspect of gaming: fast and accurate mouse/keyboard control, timing accuracy, strategic thinking, rhythmic action, reaction to sound and subtle visual cues, multi-tasking, world building, and psychological warfare. There's probably more that I'm leaving out. There's a reason why it's considered the hardest game, and why most people prefer less mentally taxing games. I never got into brood war, though, despite being about 12yo when it was launched, because everything about it looks so damn awkward. When TY said that playing brood war made his hand hurt, I understood immediately why. RTS means real-time strategy, but brood war made it look like it was much less about strategy and more just furious hand movements. OP's ideal game probably already exists as one of the arcade games; he probably would enjoy Nexus Wars or Direct Strike. | ||
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Husyelt
United States837 Posts
On October 08 2020 18:47 Concentration wrote: The hostility just seems unnecessary considering this is a place to discuss Starcraft. A video game. His post wasn't rude or offensive. So why is it met with such animosity? StarCraft is not just another video game to the people on this forum though. The author here presumes to hold some form of objective truth and can "fix" "everything wrong with" this game. | ||
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Charoisaur
Germany16062 Posts
On October 08 2020 19:56 Husyelt wrote: StarCraft is not just another video game to the people on this forum though. The author here presumes to hold some form of objective truth and can "fix" "everything wrong with" this game. Basically this and most people here have seen at least 50 different texts from people who all had a different "objective truth" on how to "fix" the gane. which is why I initially thought it would be a parody post when I saw the title. | ||
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JimmyJRaynor
Canada17411 Posts
On October 08 2020 22:34 Charoisaur wrote: Basically this and most people here have seen at least 50 different texts from people who all had a different "objective truth" on how to "fix" the gane. which is why I initially thought it would be a parody post when I saw the title. You bring up an interesting point. It is indeed a sign of our modern times that the line between parody critique and real criticism can be indetectible. | ||
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vyzion
308 Posts
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404AlphaSquad
839 Posts
On October 08 2020 18:47 Concentration wrote: The hostility just seems unnecessary considering this is a place to discuss Starcraft. A video game. His post wasn't rude or offensive. So why is it met with such animosity? I dont see any hostility. Most people seem to acknowledge that he put effort into his post, yet disagree with most if not all of what he said. Nobody said that he should not have posted it and only some point out that maybe starcraft is not the game he is looking for which is fair game imo. In fact i am quite pleased about the positivity of all the responses. In other TL forums he probably would have been ripped to shreds much harder for a post like this and the thread would be locked very quickly. | ||
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Monochromatic
United States998 Posts
You definitely have a zerg point of view from some of the things you asked for (like being unable to wall against lings). Have you considered playing random? It will give you some perspective on what it takes to utilize other races and provide greater respect for your opponents. | ||
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starkiller123
United States4030 Posts
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RandomPlayer416
84 Posts
1. Worker starting count is too high. 2. Warpgate mechanic is flawed 3. Economy is not balanced between races. 4. Map balance is horrendous. No variety, only 2 player starting locations constantly = cheese 24/7 on the ladder. These issues have been constantly raised by players since LotV came out. Nothing has ever been addressed. | ||
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InfCereal
Canada1759 Posts
On October 09 2020 15:12 RandomPlayer416 wrote: There is so much wrong with this game that doesn't require a 5000+ character post. 1. Worker starting count is too high. 2. Warpgate mechanic is flawed 3. Economy is not balanced between races. 4. Map balance is horrendous. No variety, only 2 player starting locations constantly = cheese 24/7 on the ladder. These issues have been constantly raised by players since LotV came out. Nothing has ever been addressed. Are we just making random statements, or do you have some sort of reasoning behind that list? Wait, let me try! 1. Worker starting count is too low. 2. Wargate mechanic isn't strong enough 3. Economy between the 3 races is too identical. There's no diversity. 4. Map balance is too good. They should be designed to favor 1 race. | ||
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Tyrhanius
France947 Posts
With P/T it's different they have multiple options, and they choose a playstyle they like without being forced to master them all The onl way to have fun as Zerg is to offrace sometimes, else you get so bored. | ||
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112StaminaX
37 Posts
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dUTtrOACh
Canada2339 Posts
On October 10 2020 02:19 Tyrhanius wrote: The biggest problem is about Zerg they nerfed so much stuff you don't have any options (and you never had a lot before), you are forced into few strategies, it's all about knowing how to scout what the other is doing, knowing how to react, and excecute it as perfectly as possible. With P/T it's different they have multiple options, and they choose a playstyle they like without being forced to master them all The onl way to have fun as Zerg is to offrace sometimes, else you get so bored. I'm not convinced about your assertion that Zerg lacks options, or that they have been nerfed into uselessness. Zerg actually have many options, and the ability to produce those options on a huge scale. They have a good variety of answers to single problems, too. The ground army can basically teleport between locations (nydus) at lair tech; that's pretty fucking sick. In BW, you not only needed a hive, but needed to construct the exit at a location that already had creep, and you were limited to one exit per nydus. Nydus was still good in BW; in SC2 it's outrageously better. I'm pretty sure that Zerg are the only race with some units that fall into the category of "neither armored, nor light". These units (Ravagers, Queens, Banelings) are staples of a robust composition, because there really isn't a hard counter to them other than archons, disruptors, ghosts and flying units for those that can't hit air (archons are pretty terrible against ravagers and not spectacular against queens due to their AoE's restricted radius). Note the tier of these units. I would bet that the main reason many Zerg players struggle is their own inability to create and control an appropriately complex unit composition to battle their opponent's diverse composition, because the temptation to spam one unit is far too great. EDIT: Overseers and overlords are also neither armored nor light, but are not really combat units. Frankly, overseers always seemed to me like a stupid change from BW; Zerg already had detection in all their overlords. I'm not the biggest fan of the droplord change, but I'm sure there were reasons. | ||
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deacon.frost
Czech Republic12129 Posts
On October 10 2020 02:19 Tyrhanius wrote: The biggest problem is about Zerg they nerfed so much stuff you don't have any options (and you never had a lot before), you are forced into few strategies, it's all about knowing how to scout what the other is doing, knowing how to react, and excecute it as perfectly as possible. With P/T it's different they have multiple options, and they choose a playstyle they like without being forced to master them all The onl way to have fun as Zerg is to offrace sometimes, else you get so bored. I don't agree with that assesment. How is it possible you have like 3 playstyles of Zergs on the pro level with such nerfes and the majority of players can play anything as they're limited mostly by their mechanics more than the game balance  | ||
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WombaT
Northern Ireland26505 Posts
I love the mechanical side of the game and it adds a lot of depth in terms of strategy as well. Doors can be opened or closed in terms of viable strategy and tactics based on one’s ability to micro their army well or badly. In a sense you are both a general dictating a strategical plan, a field commander dealing with the logistics of executing the plan and you can control troops down to the individual level. The good Starcraft player is good at all of these things. Which, on a purely personal level is something I enjoy. While I can imagine it being frustrating to have a better strategy and lose to a brainless mechanical machine of a player, I don’t mind that so much. Just another layer to factor in. Throughout military history there are great plans that lead to disaster through terrible execution, or information black spots, as well as terrible plans that have been salvaged by elite troops on the ground. I tend to think of SC in these kind of terms anyway, of course not everyone else will! As to whether those elements are weighted correctly is another thing to ponder according to personal tastes. Cheers for the OP think it stirred some decent discussion anyway. | ||
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Tyrhanius
France947 Posts
On October 10 2020 03:01 dUTtrOACh wrote: I'm not convinced about your assertion that Zerg lacks options, or that they have been nerfed into uselessness. Zerg actually have many options, and the ability to produce those options on a huge scale. They have a good variety of answers to single problems, too. The ground army can basically teleport between locations (nydus) at lair tech; that's pretty fucking sick. In BW, you not only needed a hive, but needed to construct the exit at a location that already had creep, and you were limited to one exit per nydus. Nydus was still good in BW; in SC2 it's outrageously better. I'm pretty sure that Zerg are the only race with some units that fall into the category of "neither armored, nor light". These units (Ravagers, Queens, Banelings) are staples of a robust composition, because there really isn't a hard counter to them other than archons, disruptors, ghosts and flying units for those that can't hit air (archons are pretty terrible against ravagers and not spectacular against queens due to their AoE's restricted radius). Note the tier of these units. I would bet that the main reason many Zerg players struggle is their own inability to create and control an appropriately complex unit composition to battle their opponent's diverse composition, because the temptation to spam one unit is far too great. EDIT: Overseers and overlords are also neither armored nor light, but are not really combat units. Frankly, overseers always seemed to me like a stupid change from BW; Zerg already had detection in all their overlords. I'm not the biggest fan of the droplord change, but I'm sure there were reasons. You decide to defend until 3 bases saturation or what ? random cheeses ? You have the choice between quens/lings or ? Nyndus ?! Or it's the dirtiest all-in or you can't plan to make it before 10min. With T with a single 1/1/1 you want 5+ different combinaisons, you have so much different playstyle/BO that are viable With P you can go robot, stargate, oracl pheonix, skytoss, DT, blink. With Z, you're like "Well burrow seems cool what about doing some fast burrow thing ? Ah no, i can't, it's 100% trolling. Oh yeah they even nerfed burrow movement for roach, like it was an issue..." No just drone, wait until 9min to be allowed to start to do something that is different than the last game. | ||
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IIEclipseII
Germany157 Posts
![[image loading]](https://i.imgur.com/l0Gc5zg.gif) Range= Weapon Range Period= Weapon Period Speed= Unit movement speed | ||
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