EPTBalance Update - August 13, 2020 - Page 8
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Athenau
569 Posts
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UncleClimax
18 Posts
User was temp banned for this post. | ||
Teoita
Italy12246 Posts
Having sentries walk on creep would just result in Zerg surrounding your ground army and murdering it because it's not 2011 anymore and Zergs have finally learnt that they can make units before they have 70 drones without being horribly behind. You could throw a Warp Prism in there, but then an observer is cheaper for the same job, the only difference is it takes a bit longer to build two robo units (and sending the obs is waaaaay less risky). On top of that, the first 2-3 sentries a Protoss makes are *incredibly* valuable, nobody sane would ever risk losing them. You would need the old mothership core recall for sentry pokes to be a thing again. If the goal is to contain creep, a better change might be either a) new creep tumors only become invisible after x amount of time and/or b) if the Zerg cancels a new tumor, the original one can no longer spread creep. Neither of those solves the fundamental issue of zerglings forcing most armies to stay at home though. | ||
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WombaT
Northern Ireland23754 Posts
On August 22 2020 22:52 Teoita wrote: I don't think Sentries clearing creep is the answer. Once ling speed completes, the only way to safely be anywhere near creep is if you are either a flying unit (bansheers, warp prisms et al), or have similar mobility to speedlings and the ability to trade well against them (upgraded adepts, hellions). Having sentries walk on creep would just result in Zerg surrounding your ground army and murdering it because it's not 2011 anymore and Zergs have finally learnt that they can make units before they have 70 drones without being horribly behind. You could throw a Warp Prism in there, but then an observer is cheaper for the same job, the only difference is it takes a bit longer to build two robo units (and sending the obs is waaaaay less risky). On top of that, the first 2-3 sentries a Protoss makes are *incredibly* valuable, nobody sane would ever risk losing them. You would need the old mothership core recall for sentry pokes to be a thing again. If the goal is to contain creep, a better change might be either a) new creep tumors only become invisible after x amount of time and/or b) if the Zerg cancels a new tumor, the original one can no longer spread creep. Neither of those solves the fundamental issue of zerglings forcing most armies to stay at home though. This much is true, although I still like my idea :p As much as struggling to roll back the Zerg economic juggernaut is the cause of much Protoss woes, the root cause of why Protoss struggle to do that is a general lack of mobility. | ||
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bela.mervado
Hungary367 Posts
let's lower the creep tumor health to 40 and add 1 armor, remove light tag from the building tumor so no easy snipe of the spreading tumor. (and I'd like to be able to cancel undamaged creep tumors) so P can use a warp prism + 2 adepts + 1 obs to clear creep. vs bio T: players would build the 4-6 hellions to pressure Z, then try to roast some drones, fucking up in the process, throwing away the hellions. or preserving them to use in the 2 base push. they generally seem to use 1-2x medivacs with some marines and scan to clear creep. the +1 armor and 40 health would allow 8 marines to one shot tumors. 4 hellions already one shot tumors, this would not change. it takes a lot of attention to spread the creep, I'd prefer the opponent to spend similar amount to clear it. the sentry idea is nice and unique, but would make it a bit too easy to clear the creep. | ||
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BonitiilloO
Dominican Republic610 Posts
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Teoita
Italy12246 Posts
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washikie
United States752 Posts
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Snakestyle11
191 Posts
On August 23 2020 01:25 Teoita wrote: Yeah a queen nerf would be welcome (although it may make zvt messy, dunno). What you get for the cost is pretty crazy. Lol what would zerg do against 2 battle cruisers? Or a bunch of cloak banshee? Or speed void rays. Queens need to be this strong... | ||
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RandomPlayer416
84 Posts
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pvsnp
7676 Posts
On August 23 2020 09:59 Snakestyle11 wrote: Lol what would zerg do against 2 battle cruisers? Or a bunch of cloak banshee? Or speed void rays. Queens need to be this strong... That's exactly what Zergs said about Queens going down to 7 range. That it would totally break the matchups, and 20 drones would die to air harass every game, and it would be totally imba. Pity the poor Zergs. Surprise surprise, nothing changed. And after that, the balance team decided more nerfs to Zerg were in order. | ||
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Cyro
United Kingdom20275 Posts
On August 23 2020 13:12 RandomPlayer416 wrote: seems like the community feels towards some kind of sentry buff. . . funny how we all had a similar conclusion while blizzard thinks the most worthless units are the answer. You can probably have both. No reason not to improve the void ray which had been relatively nerfed into being unusable. | ||
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Yoshi Kirishima
United States10292 Posts
But how about nerfing Creep Tumors' ability to spawn new Creep Tumors themselves? It takes 11 seconds for them to be able to spawn a new tumor. What if that was increased to like 15 seconds? It would significantly reduce creep's ability to exponentially spread, without making early game creep spread to connect your first 3 bases too weak. If you wanted to spread creep faster, you would have to use the Queen's Spawn Creep Tumor itself, so spreading creep fast is more of an investment and effectively takes more energy from the Queen. As for connecting creep between early bases, it will be a little slower unless you use the Queen's Spawn Creep Tumor a couple more times, which may be desirable so they do not have as much energy banked up for Transfuse early game, thus allowing more opportunities for harass or make attempts at killing Queens more viable. (Alternatively, maybe you could reduce the rate a Tumor spreads creep, to further promote things like having Overlords drop creep further ahead so the Tumor can spawn a new tumor ASAP at max distance. But nerfing the rate a Tumor spreads creep could make connecting early bases too weak vs cheese, since often for example 1 Tumor will be enough to almost connect your main and natural. But I think 1 of these 2 ideas should be considered even if it might slightly strengthen early cheeses). | ||
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deacon.frost
Czech Republic12128 Posts
On August 23 2020 19:34 Yoshi Kirishima wrote: I think everyone agrees design wise, the Queen is too strong and covers too many things. But there doesn't seem to be any good ways to nerf it without breaking the balance somewhere or making opponent cheeses/rushes too strong. But how about nerfing Creep Tumors' ability to spawn new Creep Tumors themselves? It takes 11 seconds for them to be able to spawn a new tumor. What if that was increased to like 15 seconds? It would significantly reduce creep's ability to exponentially spread, without making early game creep spread to connect your first 3 bases too weak. If you wanted to spread creep faster, you would have to use the Queen's Spawn Creep Tumor itself, so spreading creep fast is more of an investment and effectively takes more energy from the Queen. As for connecting creep between early bases, it will be a little slower unless you use the Queen's Spawn Creep Tumor a couple more times, which may be desirable so they do not have as much energy banked up for Transfuse early game, thus allowing more opportunities for harass or make attempts at killing Queens more viable. (Alternatively, maybe you could reduce the rate a Tumor spreads creep, to further promote things like having Overlords drop creep further ahead so the Tumor can spawn a new tumor ASAP at max distance. But nerfing the rate a Tumor spreads creep could make connecting early bases too weak vs cheese, since often for example 1 Tumor will be enough to almost connect your main and natural. But I think 1 of these 2 ideas should be considered even if it might slightly strengthen early cheeses). we can always nerf queens the weird way. e.g. you have battle queens or macro queens and their switch takes a while(think about it as siege tanks/thors). Macro queens are heavily nerfed in attacking capabilities but can inject, spawn tumors and transfuse. Battle queens can do the fighting. Switch requires 25 energy. Although creating/buffing a unit would be more reasonable then making these shenanigans. | ||
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Freeborn
Germany421 Posts
Or increase it's supply. | ||
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WombaT
Northern Ireland23754 Posts
On August 23 2020 19:34 Yoshi Kirishima wrote: I think everyone agrees design wise, the Queen is too strong and covers too many things. But there doesn't seem to be any good ways to nerf it without breaking the balance somewhere or making opponent cheeses/rushes too strong. But how about nerfing Creep Tumors' ability to spawn new Creep Tumors themselves? It takes 11 seconds for them to be able to spawn a new tumor. What if that was increased to like 15 seconds? It would significantly reduce creep's ability to exponentially spread, without making early game creep spread to connect your first 3 bases too weak. If you wanted to spread creep faster, you would have to use the Queen's Spawn Creep Tumor itself, so spreading creep fast is more of an investment and effectively takes more energy from the Queen. As for connecting creep between early bases, it will be a little slower unless you use the Queen's Spawn Creep Tumor a couple more times, which may be desirable so they do not have as much energy banked up for Transfuse early game, thus allowing more opportunities for harass or make attempts at killing Queens more viable. (Alternatively, maybe you could reduce the rate a Tumor spreads creep, to further promote things like having Overlords drop creep further ahead so the Tumor can spawn a new tumor ASAP at max distance. But nerfing the rate a Tumor spreads creep could make connecting early bases too weak vs cheese, since often for example 1 Tumor will be enough to almost connect your main and natural. But I think 1 of these 2 ideas should be considered even if it might slightly strengthen early cheeses). The game should be one of as many tactical and strategic choices as possible without making it overly complex and coinflippy. It gives a variety of styles and approaches more room to breathe and the best players more ways to show their skills. As per your suggestions, very much fit in that. Specifics aside, just as a general concept. Think numbers aren’t as big a deal if one isn’t defining a change’s desirability. Currently a Zerg has macro boost, a strong and versatile defensive unit and great creep spread out of the box. If you nerf tumours spawning further tumours then you’re creating options that Zergs have to pick between. Zergs might decide prioritising creep is less important than pumping eco, some might build an extra Queen or two to really maximise spread, and the really elite Zergs might be able to achieve similar results to now with slight improvements in Queen movement and the likes. If we were to tweak the Queen I’d definitely look here first over combat capacity because that really does have huge knock on effects to so many builds and interactions. | ||
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BonitiilloO
Dominican Republic610 Posts
Queen should cost 1 more supply and spawn 1 less larva zergs don't do macro hatcheries anymore and they get 80 drones while other races are still in 60 or less. | ||
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ThunderJunk
United States648 Posts
Design-wise, it covers too many bases. It's a flying unit available immediately with good hp that can attack both air and ground and is difficult to micro against (because of the leash). There's a good reason there are no T2 air units in either broodwar or sc2 that are good against both air and ground. The only unit that comes close is the mutalisk, and those are only good if you have 8 or more of them - and they have a short attack range that doesn't leash. If we're gonna have a unit like that, fine - we can keep it in the game as long as it's mostly useless to build - which it was! Making the void ray good makes the game worse. | ||
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Calliope
297 Posts
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AirbladeOrange
United States2571 Posts
On August 24 2020 03:37 Calliope wrote: Speaking of creep, why does it actually provide vision? None of the races need to play with maphack. Zergs do most of the scouting with overlords and the map presence of the fast units anyway. Maybe the game would be more balanced if zerg did not have so much vision enabling them to set up accurate multipronged flanking in advance. I've always wondered this too but I think it's too late to change because of how major of a change it would be to remove it. I wish creep were different. Something like zerg units would get a sizeable health regen buff when on it but very slowly lose health when off of it. | ||
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