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InfCereal
Canada1759 Posts
On August 21 2020 00:01 Mizenhauer wrote: When you start with 12 workers and a shit ton of money early on, you sorta end up on 2/3 bases pretty naturally... Plus the main starts mining out at like 7 minutes, so you kind of don't have an option | ||
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InfCereal
Canada1759 Posts
On August 21 2020 02:54 Decendos wrote: + Show Spoiler + GSL 9 P 10 T 5 Z advance from qualifiers...finally we can talk about useless Z things to buff like midgame infestor, burrow movement, SHs and hydras :-) Worth noting that's almost all of the korean zergs. | ||
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Freeborn
Germany421 Posts
I know that it's dangerous for the early game, BUT that's why we need to limit the offensive capabilities and it's not that hard. Some ideas: - No fast warpin, that will be such a huge change already and gimp most early offenses - remove forcefield - stalker -1 range, this will mean that stalkers no longer outrange marines and are outranged by marauders, will probably need to offer that +1 range baack as an upgrade - adept shade cooldown nerfed until upgrade researched, adepts are not very strong early game without permanent shades, they are pretty slow If you respond to my proposal please read the whole thing and think about it a bit. | ||
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SC-Shield
Bulgaria878 Posts
On August 21 2020 06:20 Freeborn wrote: AGAIN: gateway units need a DPS buff. Play random for a bit and compare the races base armies and you will see what I mean. I know that it's dangerous for the early game, BUT that's why we need to limit the offensive capabilities and it's not that hard. Some ideas: - No fast warpin, that will be such a huge change already and gimp most early offenses - remove forcefield - stalker -1 range, this will mean that stalkers no longer outrange marines and are outranged by marauders, will probably need to offer that +1 range baack as an upgrade - adept shade cooldown nerfed until upgrade researched, adepts are not very strong early game without permanent shades, they are pretty slow If you respond to my proposal please read the whole thing and think about it a bit. You can't remove warp-in or slow it down. A lot of stuff is balanced around it like boosted medivacs and zerg's macro. You need to change that too and that's asking for trouble until the game is stabilised. | ||
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Aesto
44 Posts
On August 21 2020 06:20 Freeborn wrote: AGAIN: gateway units need a DPS buff. Play random for a bit and compare the races base armies and you will see what I mean. I know that it's dangerous for the early game, BUT that's why we need to limit the offensive capabilities and it's not that hard. Some ideas: - No fast warpin, that will be such a huge change already and gimp most early offenses - remove forcefield - stalker -1 range, this will mean that stalkers no longer outrange marines and are outranged by marauders, will probably need to offer that +1 range baack as an upgrade - adept shade cooldown nerfed until upgrade researched, adepts are not very strong early game without permanent shades, they are pretty slow If you respond to my proposal please read the whole thing and think about it a bit. - Sentry would need some kind of other ability to compensate, nobody would invest 100 gas just for Guardian Shield and Hallucination - Stalkers are already the best all-round unit Protoss has, if they had more damage Protoss would just go back to the pure Blink Stalkers style we had in HotS. - The gateway-heavy style Zest played in early LotV would also become too strong - Protoss would never get any tech and just pressure their opponent until one of them dies - Adepts are just not as good as chargelots long-term, so they wouldn't get made much - Basically, Protoss would mass Stalkers and just enough Zealots to buffer in front. | ||
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washikie
United States752 Posts
On August 21 2020 07:40 Aesto wrote: - Sentry would need some kind of other ability to compensate, nobody would invest 100 gas just for Guardian Shield and Hallucination - Stalkers are already the best all-round unit Protoss has, if they had more damage Protoss would just go back to the pure Blink Stalkers style we had in HotS. - The gateway-heavy style Zest played in early LotV would also become too strong - Protoss would never get any tech and just pressure their opponent until one of them dies - Adepts are just not as good as chargelots long-term, so they wouldn't get made much - Basically, Protoss would mass Stalkers and just enough Zealots to buffer in front. Theirs also the added problem of the Protoss death all becoming overwhelming powerfull in pvt. Image the Protoss death all but with all the stalkers contributing more dos and no nerfs to splash. | ||
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washikie
United States752 Posts
On August 21 2020 06:20 Freeborn wrote: AGAIN: gateway units need a DPS buff. Play random for a bit and compare the races base armies and you will see what I mean. I know that it's dangerous for the early game, BUT that's why we need to limit the offensive capabilities and it's not that hard. Some ideas: - No fast warpin, that will be such a huge change already and gimp most early offenses - remove forcefield - stalker -1 range, this will mean that stalkers no longer outrange marines and are outranged by marauders, will probably need to offer that +1 range baack as an upgrade - adept shade cooldown nerfed until upgrade researched, adepts are not very strong early game without permanent shades, they are pretty slow If you respond to my proposal please read the whole thing and think about it a bit. I primarily play random. I’m not going to argue that protoss is in a rough spot right now especially vs Zerg. But toss is really hard to balance correctly because chrono boost and having strong unit interactions in early game make it really hard to tune effectively. Also forcefeild is so core to toss’s identity at this point, you can’t remove it. | ||
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Yoshi Kirishima
United States10382 Posts
On August 20 2020 21:59 Drfilip wrote: The larvae amount is already reduced by 1 with the 12 worker economy. That change has already been implemented. Source Oh!! That's awesome lol, thanks. I missed out on early LotV stuff, I had no idea. On August 20 2020 22:14 Wombat_NI wrote: I like the cut of your jib sir. On August 21 2020 01:33 Vision_ wrote: Love your messages guys, Wombat and Yoshi, ... I enjoy reading your guys' messages as well :> In regards to Gateway army needing more strength, and because Adept use really falls off after early-midgame, why not revisit the idea of having a 2nd upgrade for Adepts that would further power them up for mid and lategame? Adepts could gain more damage, have more Shields, or something. Something that wouldn't make Protoss too strong in PvT (alternative unit choices are fine, but raw strength no), but would help in PvZ. If the cost and/or research time is high enough, or if it is gated behind Glaives, then it won't ruin anything early on. Maybe it could even be researched at the Templar Archives instead. Also, if we make it so that Battery only gives you the full charging power when in a Pylon field connected to a WG, WP, or Nexus (just like Warp-ins), we could buff Tempest's overall damage/range (and Void Rays) without making Proxy Tempest (or Proxy Voids) too strong in TvP. A buffed Tempest could allow the Tempest to be that anti-Spore forest tool that Blizz wants and perhaps find usage in other MUs (and potentially allow more Skytoss strategies), without a contrived and uninteresting upgrade. If we just increase its damage, we may need to slightly rework or nerf Viper/Abduct/Consume, but if we increase the AtG Range the Tempest then Abducting it as soon as it tries to shoot won't be so free. | ||
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Cyro
United Kingdom20344 Posts
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bela.mervado
Hungary415 Posts
On August 21 2020 10:11 Cyro wrote: Any news on the patch? It's been more than a week now and we're through the usual patch day. its live on EU | ||
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Cyro
United Kingdom20344 Posts
Oh damn :D No confirmation announcement yet. I see people are confused on reddit too lol | ||
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kyarisan
United States347 Posts
On August 21 2020 08:24 Yoshi Kirishima wrote: In regards to Gateway army needing more strength, and because Adept use really falls off after early-midgame, why not revisit the idea of having a 2nd upgrade for Adepts that would further power them up for mid and lategame? Adepts could gain more damage, have more Shields, or something. Something that wouldn't make Protoss too strong in PvT (alternative unit choices are fine, but raw strength no), but would help in PvZ. If the cost and/or research time is high enough, or if it is gated behind Glaives, then it won't ruin anything early on. Maybe it could even be researched at the Templar Archives instead. Maybe a movement speed upgrade? (Requires Templar Archives or something?) | ||
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washikie
United States752 Posts
On August 21 2020 08:24 Yoshi Kirishima wrote: Oh!! That's awesome lol, thanks. I missed out on early LotV stuff, I had no idea. I enjoy reading your guys' messages as well :> In regards to Gateway army needing more strength, and because Adept use really falls off after early-midgame, why not revisit the idea of having a 2nd upgrade for Adepts that would further power them up for mid and lategame? Adepts could gain more damage, have more Shields, or something. Something that wouldn't make Protoss too strong in PvT (alternative unit choices are fine, but raw strength no), but would help in PvZ. If the cost and/or research time is high enough, or if it is gated behind Glaives, then it won't ruin anything early on. Maybe it could even be researched at the Templar Archives instead. Also, if we make it so that Battery only gives you the full charging power when in a Pylon field connected to a WG, WP, or Nexus (just like Warp-ins), we could buff Tempest's overall damage/range (and Void Rays) without making Proxy Tempest (or Proxy Voids) too strong in TvP. A buffed Tempest could allow the Tempest to be that anti-Spore forest tool that Blizz wants and perhaps find usage in other MUs (and potentially allow more Skytoss strategies), without a contrived and uninteresting upgrade. If we just increase its damage, we may need to slightly rework or nerf Viper/Abduct/Consume, but if we increase the AtG Range the Tempest then Abducting it as soon as it tries to shoot won't be so free. I like these ideas. | ||
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Harris1st
Germany7402 Posts
Pretty much every upgrade I can think of (Movespeed, Damage, Health, Shield) will make them better Zealots and Zealots in turn pretty useless | ||
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Vision_
877 Posts
On August 21 2020 15:51 Harris1st wrote: I think it's fine that Adepts falls off. So do roaches. Pretty much every upgrade I can think of (Movespeed, Damage, Health, Shield) will make them better Zealots and Zealots in turn pretty useless Yes it s hard to touch caracteristic itself.... You can make an upgrade to increase temporarily their shield before shading if you want to escape from the fight or make a counter attack faster. Then the attack speed can be speed up when they appear after shade in, as Blizzard wants it (or simplier a single bonus damage on their first shot) | ||
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egrimm
Poland1201 Posts
On August 21 2020 15:51 Harris1st wrote: I think it's fine that Adepts falls off. So do roaches. Pretty much every upgrade I can think of (Movespeed, Damage, Health, Shield) will make them better Zealots and Zealots in turn pretty useless This is the problem since the introduction of the adept. Adept and Zealot share many similarities and kind off "overlap" that's way it is so hard to design them correctly. Right now both of them are in okeyish spot imho. Adept for early game scout/harass with possibility to perform midgame pressure/all-in Zealot useless in early game (mainly because of lack of charge at this point of the game) with possibility to perform midgame all-in and really useful in mid/late game (outperforming the adept in that regard) | ||
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egrimm
Poland1201 Posts
On August 21 2020 06:20 Freeborn wrote: AGAIN: gateway units need a DPS buff. Play random for a bit and compare the races base armies and you will see what I mean. I know that it's dangerous for the early game, BUT that's why we need to limit the offensive capabilities and it's not that hard. Some ideas: - No fast warpin, that will be such a huge change already and gimp most early offenses - remove forcefield - stalker -1 range, this will mean that stalkers no longer outrange marines and are outranged by marauders, will probably need to offer that +1 range baack as an upgrade - adept shade cooldown nerfed until upgrade researched, adepts are not very strong early game without permanent shades, they are pretty slow If you respond to my proposal please read the whole thing and think about it a bit. In order to buff Gateway units we would have to overhaul Protoss a lot to keep the game balanced. If I were trying to achieve this I would implement some combination of the following: 1. Move Warpgate upgrade to Twilight council (maybe decrease research time slightly) - make WG timings weaker and also a choice between Charge/Blink/Glaive/WG 2. Move Chrono a bit later in the tech (maybe introduce to Nexus a upgrade similar to Orbital command after the cybernetics core) so P cannot that easily mass units of the 1 gate and obliterate any FE Terran 3. Unify the build time of gateway units between Gateway and Warpgate (currently it is a mess - check that  Warp Gate (Legacy of the Void) ) so it is not necessary to get WG in order to produce faster4. Warped unit warp without shields (instead of getting 200% dmg while warping). That would make instant reinforcements weaker and giving some defenders advantage at least while keeping fast harass option available for Protoss. 5. Unify Slow (11.4) and Fast(3.6) warp-ins into 1 speed as it was before but a bit longer like ~6s 6. Gateway->Warpgate transformation takes more time exact to avg build time of gateway units - this would further weaker timing attacks | ||
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Vision_
877 Posts
I think many of us are unsatisfied of the economy LotV, i read recently a comment from Phantom explaining how the PvZ is impacted by this change (...tl.net...) I hadn t enought time to read all comments and to figure out everything cause it s not my native langage but if the TEST MOD isn t in use by Blizzard by now, why couldn t ask to Blizzard if some kind of community changes could be tested (mainly concerning the economy) ? There s enought representative people inside TL and retired pro gamers who can help, like Demuslim (or others..) and have time to study the real impact of an in-between economic model. There s nothing to lose for Blizzard, the patch can be a failure, it can work, but in definitive, it will gather together and maybe take a thorn out of SC2. | ||
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plainsane
Germany98 Posts
Asking for buffs to GW units while GW timings are about the strongest in the game, maybe next to 2 Base tank pushes. Let's be mindful and embrace smaller changes rather than radical ones, all matchups are pretty good right now except for PvZ late game, so let's hope for small tweaks to that. | ||
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Legan
Finland595 Posts
On another note, it feels like Protoss could use something like Hellions, that give some presence on map and can do some runbys. Because we don't want to have them warped into opponents base, they should be produced from robo but have short build time like 30 or less. Also, the cargo size of 2 could make them good for drops too. Is there a reason why Warp Prism could not just have a longer time transforming to phasing mode than currently? This would make setting up during a fight riskier, because of snipes being easier, and give some additional time for the defender to react before main has 10 zealots in it. | ||
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