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Northern Ireland26252 Posts
On August 17 2020 07:27 Yoshi Kirishima wrote:Show nested quote +On August 17 2020 06:36 BronzeKnee wrote:
I guess I need to write another article...
The elephant in the room here is the Viper. It's always been the Viper (it has negative consequences game design wise in TvZ too). Anything that takes Protoss along time to build (mostly units that don't come out of the Warp Gate) simply gets Abducted and killed and the rest of the Protoss army can't stand up to a Roach/Hydra/Lurker ball.
It has been this way forever. The more expensive unit you make that gets Abducted, the more it puts you behind, so why tech? Why go into late game? There is a reason we see timing attacks against Zerg. More counter play must be introduced to this mechanic for Protoss to have a chance in late game.
This has to be solved.
Buffing Void Rays is not the solution. It will only make other match ups and team games worse. I agree, I've been feeling that Viper Abduct is pretty problematic. It's not interesting, watching it happen in pro games feels REALLY lame and honestly unfair. It gives me a bad feeling while watching a game when I should be excited and enjoying it. It's anticlimactic because it can decide whether a battle or game is won or lost, without the two armies actually engaging or poking in meaningful ways. You could use Feedback I suppose, but it doesn't seem to be too common, probably because it's usually too hard to have both Colossus and HT tech at a time when Zerg can have Vipers. The cost of Abduct needs to be adjusted to account for them wanting to just abduct the most expensive units, or it needs to be changed so you can't abduct massive units. Then you can't abduct Colossus, Thors, BCs, Carriers, or Tempest anymore. It would also help Tempests be used to poke at Spores without worry of being abducted, and we wouldn't need the +Structure damage upgrade. I'm honestly surprised you can Abduct the Mothership too, what is with that? Or what if Abduct only pulls Massive units half the range as normal? Other ideas is that Abduct shouldn't be so instant, it should slowly drag the unit towards them, allowing you time to react and possibly snipe the Viper or poke back while the Viper is pulling.
The instant nature of it is a bit, oof.
The game’s engagements are fast enough as it is, a lot of spells are not dodgeable in any meaningful way.
What if it was a short channelling spell with a slightly lengthened pull time? Nothing too long, they still need to be useful.
That would give you a short time to snipe the viper, or alternatively if you’re Terran or Protoss you’d have a short period to EMP/feedback to cancel the channel.
Unless you are insanely fast the yoinked unit will still be pulled at least some distance so the Zerg still have the option of poking forward and sniping it too, would just add at least another layer of play and counter-play.
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On August 17 2020 20:19 Wombat_NI wrote:Show nested quote +On August 17 2020 07:27 Yoshi Kirishima wrote:On August 17 2020 06:36 BronzeKnee wrote:
I guess I need to write another article...
The elephant in the room here is the Viper. It's always been the Viper (it has negative consequences game design wise in TvZ too). Anything that takes Protoss along time to build (mostly units that don't come out of the Warp Gate) simply gets Abducted and killed and the rest of the Protoss army can't stand up to a Roach/Hydra/Lurker ball.
It has been this way forever. The more expensive unit you make that gets Abducted, the more it puts you behind, so why tech? Why go into late game? There is a reason we see timing attacks against Zerg. More counter play must be introduced to this mechanic for Protoss to have a chance in late game.
This has to be solved.
Buffing Void Rays is not the solution. It will only make other match ups and team games worse. I agree, I've been feeling that Viper Abduct is pretty problematic. It's not interesting, watching it happen in pro games feels REALLY lame and honestly unfair. It gives me a bad feeling while watching a game when I should be excited and enjoying it. It's anticlimactic because it can decide whether a battle or game is won or lost, without the two armies actually engaging or poking in meaningful ways. You could use Feedback I suppose, but it doesn't seem to be too common, probably because it's usually too hard to have both Colossus and HT tech at a time when Zerg can have Vipers. The cost of Abduct needs to be adjusted to account for them wanting to just abduct the most expensive units, or it needs to be changed so you can't abduct massive units. Then you can't abduct Colossus, Thors, BCs, Carriers, or Tempest anymore. It would also help Tempests be used to poke at Spores without worry of being abducted, and we wouldn't need the +Structure damage upgrade. I'm honestly surprised you can Abduct the Mothership too, what is with that? Or what if Abduct only pulls Massive units half the range as normal? Other ideas is that Abduct shouldn't be so instant, it should slowly drag the unit towards them, allowing you time to react and possibly snipe the Viper or poke back while the Viper is pulling. The instant nature of it is a bit, oof. The game’s engagements are fast enough as it is, a lot of spells are not dodgeable in any meaningful way. What if it was a short channelling spell with a slightly lengthened pull time? Nothing too long, they still need to be useful. That would give you a short time to snipe the viper, or alternatively if you’re Terran or Protoss you’d have a short period to EMP/feedback to cancel the channel. Unless you are insanely fast the yoinked unit will still be pulled at least some distance so the Zerg still have the option of poking forward and sniping it too, would just add at least another layer of play and counter-play.
To be frank I've always felt that the ability is just wrong, like it doesn't belong to starcraft at all.
I'd much more prefer if viper just had something similar to "spawn broodling" from broodwar.
Cast on unit
Only vs ground (Viper already has this insane parasitic bomb vs Air you know?)
After 2-5sec deals instant 150-200 dmg and spawns 1-2 broodlings no top of the unit
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Northern Ireland26252 Posts
On August 17 2020 23:30 egrimm wrote:Show nested quote +On August 17 2020 20:19 Wombat_NI wrote:On August 17 2020 07:27 Yoshi Kirishima wrote:On August 17 2020 06:36 BronzeKnee wrote:
I guess I need to write another article...
The elephant in the room here is the Viper. It's always been the Viper (it has negative consequences game design wise in TvZ too). Anything that takes Protoss along time to build (mostly units that don't come out of the Warp Gate) simply gets Abducted and killed and the rest of the Protoss army can't stand up to a Roach/Hydra/Lurker ball.
It has been this way forever. The more expensive unit you make that gets Abducted, the more it puts you behind, so why tech? Why go into late game? There is a reason we see timing attacks against Zerg. More counter play must be introduced to this mechanic for Protoss to have a chance in late game.
This has to be solved.
Buffing Void Rays is not the solution. It will only make other match ups and team games worse. I agree, I've been feeling that Viper Abduct is pretty problematic. It's not interesting, watching it happen in pro games feels REALLY lame and honestly unfair. It gives me a bad feeling while watching a game when I should be excited and enjoying it. It's anticlimactic because it can decide whether a battle or game is won or lost, without the two armies actually engaging or poking in meaningful ways. You could use Feedback I suppose, but it doesn't seem to be too common, probably because it's usually too hard to have both Colossus and HT tech at a time when Zerg can have Vipers. The cost of Abduct needs to be adjusted to account for them wanting to just abduct the most expensive units, or it needs to be changed so you can't abduct massive units. Then you can't abduct Colossus, Thors, BCs, Carriers, or Tempest anymore. It would also help Tempests be used to poke at Spores without worry of being abducted, and we wouldn't need the +Structure damage upgrade. I'm honestly surprised you can Abduct the Mothership too, what is with that? Or what if Abduct only pulls Massive units half the range as normal? Other ideas is that Abduct shouldn't be so instant, it should slowly drag the unit towards them, allowing you time to react and possibly snipe the Viper or poke back while the Viper is pulling. The instant nature of it is a bit, oof. The game’s engagements are fast enough as it is, a lot of spells are not dodgeable in any meaningful way. What if it was a short channelling spell with a slightly lengthened pull time? Nothing too long, they still need to be useful. That would give you a short time to snipe the viper, or alternatively if you’re Terran or Protoss you’d have a short period to EMP/feedback to cancel the channel. Unless you are insanely fast the yoinked unit will still be pulled at least some distance so the Zerg still have the option of poking forward and sniping it too, would just add at least another layer of play and counter-play. To be frank I've always felt that the ability is just wrong, like it doesn't belong to starcraft at all. I'd much more prefer if viper just had something similar to "spawn broodling" from broodwar. Cast on unit Only vs ground (Viper already has this insane parasitic bomb vs Air you know?) After 2-5sec deals instant 150-200 dmg and spawns 1-2 broodlings no top of the unit
I’m not a massive fan to say the least, but I couch most of my theorycraft balancing in tweaking what’s there over something more radical.
10 (well I suppose 9) years of wanting Warpgate retooled or removed and Protoss getting more potent gate units being largely why haha.
I can’t see yoinks going anywhere, and assuming that how would I introduce at least some counter play to it. Would still have some potency but a bit of space for P/T to try to protect important assets.
It has a pretty important function in ZvZ too. Between disables from the raven, splitting bio and flanking, dropping on top of them etc, pushing an air advantage TvT has a lot of play/counterplay they can do against tanklines, Zerg have a smaller toolset against lurkers that they can frequently deploy anyway.
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It's also strange that the Viper has abduct when the Infestor has neural. Why does zerg need two spells that do almost the same, i.e. take out the opponents big, expensive units?
I think it would be much better to find another spell to replace abduct.
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On August 17 2020 23:38 Wombat_NI wrote:Show nested quote +On August 17 2020 23:30 egrimm wrote:On August 17 2020 20:19 Wombat_NI wrote:On August 17 2020 07:27 Yoshi Kirishima wrote:On August 17 2020 06:36 BronzeKnee wrote:
I guess I need to write another article...
The elephant in the room here is the Viper. It's always been the Viper (it has negative consequences game design wise in TvZ too). Anything that takes Protoss along time to build (mostly units that don't come out of the Warp Gate) simply gets Abducted and killed and the rest of the Protoss army can't stand up to a Roach/Hydra/Lurker ball.
It has been this way forever. The more expensive unit you make that gets Abducted, the more it puts you behind, so why tech? Why go into late game? There is a reason we see timing attacks against Zerg. More counter play must be introduced to this mechanic for Protoss to have a chance in late game.
This has to be solved.
Buffing Void Rays is not the solution. It will only make other match ups and team games worse. I agree, I've been feeling that Viper Abduct is pretty problematic. It's not interesting, watching it happen in pro games feels REALLY lame and honestly unfair. It gives me a bad feeling while watching a game when I should be excited and enjoying it. It's anticlimactic because it can decide whether a battle or game is won or lost, without the two armies actually engaging or poking in meaningful ways. You could use Feedback I suppose, but it doesn't seem to be too common, probably because it's usually too hard to have both Colossus and HT tech at a time when Zerg can have Vipers. The cost of Abduct needs to be adjusted to account for them wanting to just abduct the most expensive units, or it needs to be changed so you can't abduct massive units. Then you can't abduct Colossus, Thors, BCs, Carriers, or Tempest anymore. It would also help Tempests be used to poke at Spores without worry of being abducted, and we wouldn't need the +Structure damage upgrade. I'm honestly surprised you can Abduct the Mothership too, what is with that? Or what if Abduct only pulls Massive units half the range as normal? Other ideas is that Abduct shouldn't be so instant, it should slowly drag the unit towards them, allowing you time to react and possibly snipe the Viper or poke back while the Viper is pulling. The instant nature of it is a bit, oof. The game’s engagements are fast enough as it is, a lot of spells are not dodgeable in any meaningful way. What if it was a short channelling spell with a slightly lengthened pull time? Nothing too long, they still need to be useful. That would give you a short time to snipe the viper, or alternatively if you’re Terran or Protoss you’d have a short period to EMP/feedback to cancel the channel. Unless you are insanely fast the yoinked unit will still be pulled at least some distance so the Zerg still have the option of poking forward and sniping it too, would just add at least another layer of play and counter-play. To be frank I've always felt that the ability is just wrong, like it doesn't belong to starcraft at all. I'd much more prefer if viper just had something similar to "spawn broodling" from broodwar. Cast on unit Only vs ground (Viper already has this insane parasitic bomb vs Air you know?) After 2-5sec deals instant 150-200 dmg and spawns 1-2 broodlings no top of the unit I’m not a massive fan to say the least, but I couch most of my theorycraft balancing in tweaking what’s there over something more radical. 10 (well I suppose 9) years of wanting Warpgate retooled or removed and Protoss getting more potent gate units being largely why haha. I can’t see yoinks going anywhere, and assuming that how would I introduce at least some counter play to it. Would still have some potency but a bit of space for P/T to try to protect important assets. It has a pretty important function in ZvZ too. Between disables from the raven, splitting bio and flanking, dropping on top of them etc, pushing an air advantage TvT has a lot of play/counterplay they can do against tanklines, Zerg have a smaller toolset against lurkers that they can frequently deploy anyway.
I agree that it is somehow radical and probably something much more mild would be more probable to be implemented.
However Viper with abduct was implemented only in LotV so it is not as long in the game as the warpgate you mentioned so there is still hope 
My proposal would give same (needed) functionality against fortified positions as before - you could cast 'spawn broodlings' onto sieged tanks/lurkers and depending on the dmg 1 or 2 shot the unit.
Also I'd gladly see more lurker play in ZvZ even if it'd would be potentially imba
Also as sneakyfox mentioned abduct heavily overlaps with neural - why do we have 2 similar in function and idea spells additionally for the same race and at the similar tech tree position?
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Zerg has the strongest spells in the game by far, it really isnt even close compared to the other races. Would love to see an abduct nerf or blinding cloud nerf even both. Parasitic bomb is a good spell but its not that difficult to deal with compared to the other ones which you just can't deal with.
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Patch going live this week?
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Give us the dragoon!
Lore-wise it would even fit. Goon tech was lost fleeing from Aiur, but in LotV , Aiur was retaken. So let s say they rediscovered how to make goons. It might not immediately help pvz (though may be beefier vs roaches and ravager and survive a wee bit more vs hydras) but it would help vs terran harass quite effectively while not requiring any gimmicky spell or research. Blink is nice and provided great spectator value in the right hand, but i feel stalkers cannot be the backbone of a protoss army, they need to be repurposed (AA?)
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On August 17 2020 07:27 Yoshi Kirishima wrote:Show nested quote +On August 17 2020 06:36 BronzeKnee wrote:
I guess I need to write another article...
The elephant in the room here is the Viper. It's always been the Viper (it has negative consequences game design wise in TvZ too). Anything that takes Protoss along time to build (mostly units that don't come out of the Warp Gate) simply gets Abducted and killed and the rest of the Protoss army can't stand up to a Roach/Hydra/Lurker ball.
It has been this way forever. The more expensive unit you make that gets Abducted, the more it puts you behind, so why tech? Why go into late game? There is a reason we see timing attacks against Zerg. More counter play must be introduced to this mechanic for Protoss to have a chance in late game.
This has to be solved.
Buffing Void Rays is not the solution. It will only make other match ups and team games worse. I agree, I've been feeling that Viper Abduct is pretty problematic. It's not interesting, watching it happen in pro games feels REALLY lame and honestly unfair. It gives me a bad feeling while watching a game when I should be excited and enjoying it. It's anticlimactic because it can decide whether a battle or game is won or lost, without the two armies actually engaging or poking in meaningful ways. You could use Feedback I suppose, but it doesn't seem to be too common, probably because it's usually too hard to have both Colossus and HT tech at a time when Zerg can have Vipers. The cost of Abduct needs to be adjusted to account for them wanting to just abduct the most expensive units, or it needs to be changed so you can't abduct massive units. Then you can't abduct Colossus, Thors, BCs, Carriers, or Tempest anymore. It would also help Tempests be used to poke at Spores without worry of being abducted, and we wouldn't need the +Structure damage upgrade. I'm honestly surprised you can Abduct the Mothership too, what is with that? Or what if Abduct only pulls Massive units half the range as normal? Other ideas is that Abduct shouldn't be so instant, it should slowly drag the unit towards them, allowing you time to react and possibly snipe the Viper or poke back while the Viper is pulling.
Abduct is to good on 3pop unit, it also only cost 75mana, like what? its on the same level as BC yamato tbh, should be rebalanced or extremely nerfed
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The big problem is 1 shotting probes PvZ. Just changing the probe armor tag would be a much better change.
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On August 18 2020 02:47 skdsk wrote:Show nested quote +On August 17 2020 07:27 Yoshi Kirishima wrote:On August 17 2020 06:36 BronzeKnee wrote:
I guess I need to write another article...
The elephant in the room here is the Viper. It's always been the Viper (it has negative consequences game design wise in TvZ too). Anything that takes Protoss along time to build (mostly units that don't come out of the Warp Gate) simply gets Abducted and killed and the rest of the Protoss army can't stand up to a Roach/Hydra/Lurker ball.
It has been this way forever. The more expensive unit you make that gets Abducted, the more it puts you behind, so why tech? Why go into late game? There is a reason we see timing attacks against Zerg. More counter play must be introduced to this mechanic for Protoss to have a chance in late game.
This has to be solved.
Buffing Void Rays is not the solution. It will only make other match ups and team games worse. I agree, I've been feeling that Viper Abduct is pretty problematic. It's not interesting, watching it happen in pro games feels REALLY lame and honestly unfair. It gives me a bad feeling while watching a game when I should be excited and enjoying it. It's anticlimactic because it can decide whether a battle or game is won or lost, without the two armies actually engaging or poking in meaningful ways. You could use Feedback I suppose, but it doesn't seem to be too common, probably because it's usually too hard to have both Colossus and HT tech at a time when Zerg can have Vipers. The cost of Abduct needs to be adjusted to account for them wanting to just abduct the most expensive units, or it needs to be changed so you can't abduct massive units. Then you can't abduct Colossus, Thors, BCs, Carriers, or Tempest anymore. It would also help Tempests be used to poke at Spores without worry of being abducted, and we wouldn't need the +Structure damage upgrade. I'm honestly surprised you can Abduct the Mothership too, what is with that? Or what if Abduct only pulls Massive units half the range as normal? Other ideas is that Abduct shouldn't be so instant, it should slowly drag the unit towards them, allowing you time to react and possibly snipe the Viper or poke back while the Viper is pulling. Abduct is to good on 3pop unit, it also only cost 75mana, like what? its on the same level as BC yamato tbh, should be rebalanced or extremely nerfed
Don't forget unlike every other caster, vipers can just go home and get full energy off throw away buildings 
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Could the Viper abduct spell not be retooled a bit? I was thinking that instead of the abductee being flung toward the Viper, the Viper could simply establish its tether and then maybe the Viper could "tug" the abductee in its direction, the exact mechanics would be up to debate/experimentation. Like it could be "reeled" back a la a fishing line, or maybe the tether distance stays the same but the Viper has to walk away (speed based on the unit size/weight/armor class) in order to drag the unit backward.
This would hopefully give the Protoss (ie Colossus) a small moment to counterplay as the unit moves into the Zerg army more slowly?
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On August 18 2020 03:01 kyarisan wrote:
Could the Viper abduct spell not be retooled a bit? I was thinking that instead of the abductee being flung toward the Viper, the Viper could simply establish its tether and then maybe the Viper could "tug" the abductee in its direction, the exact mechanics would be up to debate/experimentation. Like it could be "reeled" back a la a fishing line, or maybe the tether distance stays the same but the Viper has to walk away (speed based on the unit size/weight/armor class) in order to drag the unit backward.
This would hopefully give the Protoss (ie Colossus) a small moment to counterplay as the unit moves into the Zerg army more slowly?
I think something like this would work, the easiest example would be like Batrider in Dota.
I'm a Terran player so abduct isn't quite as terrible against us but watching a Toss army lose its potency due to key units being abducted with really no counter play doesn't feel right.
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HT just got a buff Vs viper... Without viper what is there in late game for zerg? Useless infestor? Ultras lol?
Seriously lots of pros and blizz said ZvP might even be protoss favored late game it's just that z gets ahead in midgame.
With the huge (!!!) tempest buff the carrier tempest HT archon comp will be laughably op if protoss gets in late game on even footing. If they nerf spore walls (which is a good thing) they will have to buff zerg anti air
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On August 18 2020 03:00 Moonerz wrote:Show nested quote +On August 18 2020 02:47 skdsk wrote:On August 17 2020 07:27 Yoshi Kirishima wrote:On August 17 2020 06:36 BronzeKnee wrote:
I guess I need to write another article...
The elephant in the room here is the Viper. It's always been the Viper (it has negative consequences game design wise in TvZ too). Anything that takes Protoss along time to build (mostly units that don't come out of the Warp Gate) simply gets Abducted and killed and the rest of the Protoss army can't stand up to a Roach/Hydra/Lurker ball.
It has been this way forever. The more expensive unit you make that gets Abducted, the more it puts you behind, so why tech? Why go into late game? There is a reason we see timing attacks against Zerg. More counter play must be introduced to this mechanic for Protoss to have a chance in late game.
This has to be solved.
Buffing Void Rays is not the solution. It will only make other match ups and team games worse. I agree, I've been feeling that Viper Abduct is pretty problematic. It's not interesting, watching it happen in pro games feels REALLY lame and honestly unfair. It gives me a bad feeling while watching a game when I should be excited and enjoying it. It's anticlimactic because it can decide whether a battle or game is won or lost, without the two armies actually engaging or poking in meaningful ways. You could use Feedback I suppose, but it doesn't seem to be too common, probably because it's usually too hard to have both Colossus and HT tech at a time when Zerg can have Vipers. The cost of Abduct needs to be adjusted to account for them wanting to just abduct the most expensive units, or it needs to be changed so you can't abduct massive units. Then you can't abduct Colossus, Thors, BCs, Carriers, or Tempest anymore. It would also help Tempests be used to poke at Spores without worry of being abducted, and we wouldn't need the +Structure damage upgrade. I'm honestly surprised you can Abduct the Mothership too, what is with that? Or what if Abduct only pulls Massive units half the range as normal? Other ideas is that Abduct shouldn't be so instant, it should slowly drag the unit towards them, allowing you time to react and possibly snipe the Viper or poke back while the Viper is pulling. Abduct is to good on 3pop unit, it also only cost 75mana, like what? its on the same level as BC yamato tbh, should be rebalanced or extremely nerfed Don't forget unlike every other caster, vipers can just go home and get full energy off throw away buildings
the main thing is terran does have some counter play, but protoss basically doesnt, i feel like abduct, should charge up like Yamato or requirer aim-time like ghost, also the actual pull range should be reduced (castable from 9 range but pulls only 4.5 or something)
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On August 18 2020 04:24 Decendos wrote:
HT just got a buff Vs viper... Without viper what is there in late game for zerg? Useless infestor? Ultras lol?
Seriously lots of pros and blizz said ZvP might even be protoss favored late game it's just that z gets ahead in midgame.
With the huge (!!!) tempest buff the carrier tempest HT archon comp will be laughably op if protoss gets in late game on even footing. If they nerf spore walls (which is a good thing) they will have to buff zerg anti air
The goal of these balance comments is to make sure Zerg stops winning entirely. No one making suggestions is aiming for a 50% win rate.
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Maybe feedback needs another buff. It used to be 1 damage/1 energy. Now it's 0.5 dmg/energy. Maybe it should be 0.75 dmg/energy?
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Dominican Republic627 Posts
On August 18 2020 03:52 Moonerz wrote:Show nested quote +On August 18 2020 03:01 kyarisan wrote:
Could the Viper abduct spell not be retooled a bit? I was thinking that instead of the abductee being flung toward the Viper, the Viper could simply establish its tether and then maybe the Viper could "tug" the abductee in its direction, the exact mechanics would be up to debate/experimentation. Like it could be "reeled" back a la a fishing line, or maybe the tether distance stays the same but the Viper has to walk away (speed based on the unit size/weight/armor class) in order to drag the unit backward.
This would hopefully give the Protoss (ie Colossus) a small moment to counterplay as the unit moves into the Zerg army more slowly? I think something like this would work, the easiest example would be like Batrider in Dota. I'm a Terran player so abduct isn't quite as terrible against us but watching a Toss army lose its potency due to key units being abducted with really no counter play doesn't feel right.
i said this months ago and everybody call me crazy, but is true the abduct thing doesn't have a counter or nothing.
a nerf or removal is needed
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Northern Ireland26252 Posts
On August 18 2020 04:32 InfCereal wrote:Show nested quote +On August 18 2020 04:24 Decendos wrote:
HT just got a buff Vs viper... Without viper what is there in late game for zerg? Useless infestor? Ultras lol?
Seriously lots of pros and blizz said ZvP might even be protoss favored late game it's just that z gets ahead in midgame.
With the huge (!!!) tempest buff the carrier tempest HT archon comp will be laughably op if protoss gets in late game on even footing. If they nerf spore walls (which is a good thing) they will have to buff zerg anti air The goal of these balance comments is to make sure Zerg stops winning entirely. No one making suggestions is aiming for a 50% win rate.
What?
The fabled Protoss lategame that we never see?
Almost every PvZ suggestion in here (outside of Blizzard’s) is for tweaks or buffs to the midgame, a whole bunch are actively against buffing late game air toss, myself amongst them.
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On August 18 2020 03:00 Moonerz wrote:Show nested quote +On August 18 2020 02:47 skdsk wrote:On August 17 2020 07:27 Yoshi Kirishima wrote:On August 17 2020 06:36 BronzeKnee wrote:
I guess I need to write another article...
The elephant in the room here is the Viper. It's always been the Viper (it has negative consequences game design wise in TvZ too). Anything that takes Protoss along time to build (mostly units that don't come out of the Warp Gate) simply gets Abducted and killed and the rest of the Protoss army can't stand up to a Roach/Hydra/Lurker ball.
It has been this way forever. The more expensive unit you make that gets Abducted, the more it puts you behind, so why tech? Why go into late game? There is a reason we see timing attacks against Zerg. More counter play must be introduced to this mechanic for Protoss to have a chance in late game.
This has to be solved.
Buffing Void Rays is not the solution. It will only make other match ups and team games worse. I agree, I've been feeling that Viper Abduct is pretty problematic. It's not interesting, watching it happen in pro games feels REALLY lame and honestly unfair. It gives me a bad feeling while watching a game when I should be excited and enjoying it. It's anticlimactic because it can decide whether a battle or game is won or lost, without the two armies actually engaging or poking in meaningful ways. You could use Feedback I suppose, but it doesn't seem to be too common, probably because it's usually too hard to have both Colossus and HT tech at a time when Zerg can have Vipers. The cost of Abduct needs to be adjusted to account for them wanting to just abduct the most expensive units, or it needs to be changed so you can't abduct massive units. Then you can't abduct Colossus, Thors, BCs, Carriers, or Tempest anymore. It would also help Tempests be used to poke at Spores without worry of being abducted, and we wouldn't need the +Structure damage upgrade. I'm honestly surprised you can Abduct the Mothership too, what is with that? Or what if Abduct only pulls Massive units half the range as normal? Other ideas is that Abduct shouldn't be so instant, it should slowly drag the unit towards them, allowing you time to react and possibly snipe the Viper or poke back while the Viper is pulling. Abduct is to good on 3pop unit, it also only cost 75mana, like what? its on the same level as BC yamato tbh, should be rebalanced or extremely nerfed Don't forget unlike every other caster, vipers can just go home and get full energy off throw away buildings
Vipers are too cost-effective for several reasons, Consume being the most important. With it, their spells do not even cost mana, just HP from a nearby hatchery or extract. And they gain full energy a few seconds after spawning. Consume needs to be removed. Or reworked, it may give HP insted of energy.
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EPT
