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Northern Ireland26136 Posts
On September 03 2020 04:40 RandomPlayer416 wrote:Show nested quote +On September 03 2020 04:18 Acrofales wrote:
No, I'm calling you a hyperbolic balance whiner because you're complaining that terran cannot ever win, which is very obviously false.
If Clem winning is too much for you, you can look at Arctur beating Drogo, although I am not sure where to find the VODs of that.
I'm not even trying to argue that terran are in a good spot vs toss, just that your hyperbole is ridiculous. Blink DTs are just really really really really dumb.
As for Taeja, losing to a proxy void ray he scouted is 90% on him. He clearly hasn't played against it enough and reacted badly. The 10% is for Creator reacting well to Taeja scouting it and trying to take down the pylon before it could get off the ground. Creator dropping a shield battery and a second pylon was a great response, and broke Taeja's counter. Taeja didn't adapt and his base was entirely open. If he had reacted with a factory and a cyclone, he would have been fine.
I wouldn't take getting trashed by Dark as a signal of anything other than that Dark is very good. So creator goes from being described as one of the weakest players to make the RO24 by artosis and tasteless then proceeds to literally steam roll Taeja no problem at all by doing no-risk proxy builds. All you've proven is your ability to nit-pick at the wording I have used. Would it make you feel better if I said "The off chance the Terran player is on another level compared to his or her opponent is the only real chance Terran has at winning vs a protoss player barring some drastic, unforseen error on account of the protoss player." Doesn't really matter I guess. At the end of the day the game is in blizzards hands and I don't have a great deal of faith in them to figure things out or get changes right.
TaeJa’s all-time Code S TvP was 17-41 (29.3%) even before today’s matches and including times where he was clearly a stronger player than he is nowadays.
Clem winning doesn’t count because he’s an outlier in skill, TaeJa losing in a matchup he’s historically bad at at Code S level is indicative of imbalance?
As was said before TaeJa didn’t respond well either which didn’t help. Although for the record I was against buffing voids partly for this reason.
Creator probably was one of the weaker players sure, still a good player. him and TaeJa’s shape is probably quite close these days, if TaeJa maybe shades it. Whatever gap there is between those two is certainly narrower than the gap between Trap and Spear, and of the 3 Terrans eliminated so far Special didn’t even have to play a Protoss.
Yes you play random, but maybe you just suck at TvP, probably not helped by you leaving if you roll that matchup. Doesn’t make you unbiased by any stretch, everyone has their biases.
Not meant to be insulting, it’s hard to be good at so many different matchups with different demands. For the record as a Protoss/Terran player my best matchups have always been PvT and TvP. My best race is Protoss and my best matchup since WoL has always been PvT (55-70%), worst matchup by a distance has also always been PvZ (30-40%), although I was decent at TvZ.
Now I do think PvZ is kind of horrible too, but me sucking at it is entirely down to not having the killer instinct to hit good timings.
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On September 03 2020 07:34 Wombat_NornIron wrote:
TaeJa’s all-time Code S TvP was 17-41 (29.3%) even before today’s matches and including times where he was clearly a stronger player than he is nowadays.
Clem winning doesn’t count because he’s an outlier in skill, TaeJa losing in a matchup he’s historically bad at at Code S level is indicative of imbalance?
As was said before TaeJa didn’t respond well either which didn’t help. Although for the record I was against buffing voids partly for this reason.
Creator probably was one of the weaker players sure, still a good player. him and TaeJa’s shape is probably quite close these days, if TaeJa maybe shades it. Whatever gap there is between those two is certainly narrower than the gap between Trap and Spear, and of the 3 Terrans eliminated so far Special didn’t even have to play a Protoss.
Yes you play random, but maybe you just suck at TvP, probably not helped by you leaving if you roll that matchup. Doesn’t make you unbiased by any stretch, everyone has their biases.
Not meant to be insulting, it’s hard to be good at so many different matchups with different demands. For the record as a Protoss/Terran player my best matchups have always been PvT and TvP. My best race is Protoss and my best matchup since WoL has always been PvT (55-70%), worst matchup by a distance has also always been PvZ (30-40%), although I was decent at TvZ.
Now I do think PvZ is kind of horrible too, but me sucking at it is entirely down to not having the killer instinct to hit good timings.
Being bad at a matchup doesn't mean my points are invalid. I've yet to see anyone suggest a way Terran can get ahead, just the classic "youre bad at the game" trolling.
All I'm saying is youre constantly playing from behind, of course you can outplay your opponent but given the way ladder works, what are the chances of that happening?
I figured out a way to deal with TvP, just insta-quit and report my opponent for cheating so it wont match us again. Since no one will listen and only care about the friggin aligulac or whatever, just gonna do my part in bringing the win % down.
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On September 03 2020 08:19 RandomPlayer416 wrote:
I figured out a way to deal with TvP, just insta-quit and report my opponent for cheating so it wont match us again. Since no one will listen and only care about the friggin aligulac or whatever, just gonna do my part in bringing the win % down.
"It's strange how people think actual statistics are more important than my personal experiences" is not an argument, and "I suffer so much I have to falsely report my opponents" is worse. As for actual balance in TvP, I don't think someone massively outmatched (Spear) and someone particularly terrible at the matchup (Taeja) have a lot to tell us. Not saying it's perfectly balanced or anything, but it looks a lot more winnable than PvZ.
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On September 03 2020 08:19 RandomPlayer416 wrote:
I figured out a way to deal with TvP, just insta-quit and report my opponent for cheating so it wont match us again. Since no one will listen and only care about the friggin aligulac or whatever, just gonna do my part in bringing the win % down.
If you actually you do that, it's a really shitty thing to do. Abusing the system and making people possibly have to investigate the players for cheating is extremely selfish just because you don't like the matchup. I hope you're joking.
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On September 03 2020 08:19 RandomPlayer416 wrote:Show nested quote +On September 03 2020 07:34 Wombat_NornIron wrote:
TaeJa’s all-time Code S TvP was 17-41 (29.3%) even before today’s matches and including times where he was clearly a stronger player than he is nowadays.
Clem winning doesn’t count because he’s an outlier in skill, TaeJa losing in a matchup he’s historically bad at at Code S level is indicative of imbalance?
As was said before TaeJa didn’t respond well either which didn’t help. Although for the record I was against buffing voids partly for this reason.
Creator probably was one of the weaker players sure, still a good player. him and TaeJa’s shape is probably quite close these days, if TaeJa maybe shades it. Whatever gap there is between those two is certainly narrower than the gap between Trap and Spear, and of the 3 Terrans eliminated so far Special didn’t even have to play a Protoss.
Yes you play random, but maybe you just suck at TvP, probably not helped by you leaving if you roll that matchup. Doesn’t make you unbiased by any stretch, everyone has their biases.
Not meant to be insulting, it’s hard to be good at so many different matchups with different demands. For the record as a Protoss/Terran player my best matchups have always been PvT and TvP. My best race is Protoss and my best matchup since WoL has always been PvT (55-70%), worst matchup by a distance has also always been PvZ (30-40%), although I was decent at TvZ.
Now I do think PvZ is kind of horrible too, but me sucking at it is entirely down to not having the killer instinct to hit good timings.
Being bad at a matchup doesn't mean my points are invalid. I've yet to see anyone suggest a way Terran can get ahead, just the classic "youre bad at the game" trolling. All I'm saying is youre constantly playing from behind, of course you can outplay your opponent but given the way ladder works, what are the chances of that happening? I figured out a way to deal with TvP, just insta-quit and report my opponent for cheating so it wont match us again. Since no one will listen and only care about the friggin aligulac or whatever, just gonna do my part in bringing the win % down.
dude you are bad at TvP
and you are a cunt
just git gud
check like every other TvP and see the 4 hellion drop getting 10+ probe kills
you can proxy the starport
and even if that is scouted/killed, you can build the medivacs at home
and follow it up with a 2 mine drop into the other side of their base
at >your< level tosses can't use disruptors
but you can land the whole screen wide EMP on them easily
then you just stim and a-move
terran easy race
stop rewatching A*ilo vods
User was warned for this post
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On September 03 2020 12:48 bela.mervado wrote:
dude you are bad at TvP
and you are a cunt
just git gud
check like every other TvP and see the 4 hellion drop getting 10+ probe kills
you can proxy the starport
and even if that is scouted/killed, you can build the medivacs at home
and follow it up with a 2 mine drop into the other side of their base
at >your< level tosses can't use disruptors
but you can land the whole screen wide EMP on them easily
then you just stim and a-move
terran easy race
stop rewatching A*ilo vods
LOL this is what you get every single time. I bet this guy is in gold league.
"whole screen emp" "just stim and a-move" "cunt" "git gud"
Even if a hellion drop is fortunate enough to get "10+ probes" which they never do *at my level*, the protoss player is STILL ahead on probes and your drop is basically a trade. Did you ever think that if EVERY player does a 4 hellion drop that by now even the most brain dead protoss player knows the timing and when to expect it and how to handle it??
There is literally nothing to be said to people like you, you're incapable of having a discussion and just throw out insults when someone says something you dont like.
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oops!
i value my TL account much more than that 
<3 much love
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On September 02 2020 23:25 deacon.frost wrote:Somebody send this to the 3 Terrans who just got knocked out of the Code S  Edit> And not to mention the ESL Open where Neeb won over 2 T(semi & finals).
I hope you are not serious!
Neeb won the games where he was the favorite, like he should have. Nothing to do with balance here
GSL Terrans lost the games where they were underdogs, like they should have. Nothing to do with balance here
I really can't tell since you clown face every single one of your posts
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I was checking out the SC2 Blizzard Forums.... Never again
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Czech Republic12129 Posts
On September 03 2020 16:32 Harris1st wrote:Show nested quote +On September 02 2020 23:25 deacon.frost wrote:Terran beats Protoss all the time Somebody send this to the 3 Terrans who just got knocked out of the Code S Edit> And not to mention the ESL Open where Neeb won over 2 T(semi & finals). I hope you are not serious! Neeb won the games where he was the favorite, like he should have. Nothing to do with balance here GSL Terrans lost the games where they were underdogs, like they should have. Nothing to do with balance here I really can't tell since you clown face every single one of your posts
Taeja v Creator - Taeja was the underdog? AGAINST CREATOR? Special v Neeb - Special was the underdog? Seriously? Are we both talking about THE Special?
Hey, Terrans are destroying Protoss players everywhere and if they're not that's because it doesn't fit our purpose they're underdogs so much even the OPness of Terran didn't help!
Edit> Creator was supposed to be the weakest player of the RO24 and he outplayed Taeja in a MU which was supposed to be against Protoss. Seriously.
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On September 03 2020 18:51 deacon.frost wrote:Show nested quote +On September 03 2020 16:32 Harris1st wrote:On September 02 2020 23:25 deacon.frost wrote:Terran beats Protoss all the time Somebody send this to the 3 Terrans who just got knocked out of the Code S Edit> And not to mention the ESL Open where Neeb won over 2 T(semi & finals). I hope you are not serious! Neeb won the games where he was the favorite, like he should have. Nothing to do with balance here GSL Terrans lost the games where they were underdogs, like they should have. Nothing to do with balance here I really can't tell since you clown face every single one of your posts Taeja v Creator - Taeja was the underdog? AGAINST CREATOR? Special v Neeb - Special was the underdog? Seriously? Are we both talking about THE Special? Hey, Terrans are destroying Protoss players everywhere and if they're not that's because it doesn't fit our purpose they're underdogs so much even the OPness of Terran didn't help! Edit> Creator was supposed to be the weakest player of the RO24 and he outplayed Taeja in a MU which was supposed to be against Protoss. Seriously.
I can't tell what you are trying to argue. Are you saying TvP is okay or TvP is protoss-favoured? I don't see anyone arguing that protoss is struggling in PvT so I presume you arguing TvP is difficult for terran. Regardless, you're cherry-picking statistics. Neeb beat Special in the ESL Open, but it was played on the Americas server with Special still in Korea. Moreover, the other semi-final saw Future beat Parting.
You mentioned the most recent ESL Open for the Americas server but not for the European server which had a TvT final and TvP finished 6-2 in matches.
DH Fall has Europe TvP at 13-8 but America TvP at 5-11.
And while 3 terrans have been knocked out of Code S, one of them (Special) never played against a protoss. Special was beaten by Solar and Spear. Spear was beaten 2-0 by Trap twice but I don't consider that too surprising.
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Czech Republic12129 Posts
On September 03 2020 19:14 Melliflue wrote:Show nested quote +On September 03 2020 18:51 deacon.frost wrote:On September 03 2020 16:32 Harris1st wrote:On September 02 2020 23:25 deacon.frost wrote:Terran beats Protoss all the time
Somebody send this to the 3 Terrans who just got knocked out of the Code S
Edit> And not to mention the ESL Open where Neeb won over 2 T(semi & finals). I hope you are not serious! Neeb won the games where he was the favorite, like he should have. Nothing to do with balance here GSL Terrans lost the games where they were underdogs, like they should have. Nothing to do with balance here I really can't tell since you clown face every single one of your posts Taeja v Creator - Taeja was the underdog? AGAINST CREATOR? Special v Neeb - Special was the underdog? Seriously? Are we both talking about THE Special? Hey, Terrans are destroying Protoss players everywhere and if they're not that's because it doesn't fit our purpose they're underdogs so much even the OPness of Terran didn't help! Edit> Creator was supposed to be the weakest player of the RO24 and he outplayed Taeja in a MU which was supposed to be against Protoss. Seriously. I can't tell what you are trying to argue. Are you saying TvP is okay or TvP is protoss-favoured? I don't see anyone arguing that protoss is struggling in PvT so I presume you arguing TvP is difficult for terran. Regardless, you're cherry-picking statistics. Neeb beat Special in the ESL Open, but it was played on the Americas server with Special still in Korea. Moreover, the other semi-final saw Future beat Parting. You mentioned the most recent ESL Open for the Americas server but not for the European server which had a TvT final and TvP finished 6-2 in matches. DH Fall has Europe TvP at 13-8 but America TvP at 5-11. And while 3 terrans have been knocked out of Code S, one of them (Special) never played against a protoss. Special was beaten by Solar and Spear. Spear was beaten 2-0 by Trap twice but I don't consider that too surprising.
I'm arguing that Terran is OP and that Protoss doesn't stand a chance in PvT? Look at the beginning of the thread? Check the greenish quote(at least I hope it will be green)
Edit> I mean the quote thread, begins with "Terran beats Protoss all the time"
Edit 2> Sure, result-wise Trap beating Spear isn't surprising. But people in this thread are saying that Terran is so OP that Terran beats Protoss all the time. Which is not true. Even with Terran being so OP Trap demolished Spear. Shouldn't the OPness of Terran give Spear at least a chance to beat Trap? And it didn't look so, so either Terran isn't this strong, or Spear didn't get the memo.
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On September 03 2020 18:51 deacon.frost wrote:Show nested quote +On September 03 2020 16:32 Harris1st wrote:On September 02 2020 23:25 deacon.frost wrote:Terran beats Protoss all the time Somebody send this to the 3 Terrans who just got knocked out of the Code S Edit> And not to mention the ESL Open where Neeb won over 2 T(semi & finals). I hope you are not serious! Neeb won the games where he was the favorite, like he should have. Nothing to do with balance here GSL Terrans lost the games where they were underdogs, like they should have. Nothing to do with balance here I really can't tell since you clown face every single one of your posts Taeja v Creator - Taeja was the underdog? AGAINST CREATOR? Special v Neeb - Special was the underdog? Seriously? Are we both talking about THE Special? Hey, Terrans are destroying Protoss players everywhere and if they're not that's because it doesn't fit our purpose they're underdogs so much even the OPness of Terran didn't help! Edit> Creator was supposed to be the weakest player of the RO24 and he outplayed Taeja in a MU which was supposed to be against Protoss. Seriously.
I'd consider Neeb the favorite vs Special. Yes Neeb was slumping, but so is Special IMO ( recent source: Dreamhack LATAM, where he barely, won coming from the LB. In GSL he was pretty bad, too)
Neither Taeja nor Creator was supposed to advance in that group. Taeja played horrible vs Creator
None of these indicate any kind of imbalance IMHO
Now if Nightmare, Hurricane, Zoun and to some degree Patience advance, we may have something to talk about
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Czech Republic12129 Posts
On September 03 2020 19:19 Harris1st wrote:Show nested quote +On September 03 2020 18:51 deacon.frost wrote:On September 03 2020 16:32 Harris1st wrote:On September 02 2020 23:25 deacon.frost wrote:Terran beats Protoss all the time Somebody send this to the 3 Terrans who just got knocked out of the Code S Edit> And not to mention the ESL Open where Neeb won over 2 T(semi & finals). I hope you are not serious! Neeb won the games where he was the favorite, like he should have. Nothing to do with balance here GSL Terrans lost the games where they were underdogs, like they should have. Nothing to do with balance here I really can't tell since you clown face every single one of your posts Taeja v Creator - Taeja was the underdog? AGAINST CREATOR? Special v Neeb - Special was the underdog? Seriously? Are we both talking about THE Special? Hey, Terrans are destroying Protoss players everywhere and if they're not that's because it doesn't fit our purpose they're underdogs so much even the OPness of Terran didn't help! Edit> Creator was supposed to be the weakest player of the RO24 and he outplayed Taeja in a MU which was supposed to be against Protoss. Seriously. I'd consider Neeb the favorite vs Special. Yes Neeb was slumping, but so is Special IMO ( recent source: Dreamhack LATAM, where he barely, won coming from the LB. In GSL he was pretty bad, too) Neither Taeja nor Creator was supposed to advance in that group. Taeja played horrible vs Creator None of these indicate any kind of imbalance IMHO Now if Nightmare, Hurricane, Zoun and to some degree Patience advance, we may have something to talk about
look up at the edit #2. If Terran is so stronk it should give the players at least some advantage. Not saying winning advantage but at least some. Didn't happen to Spear nor Taeja nor Special. That are 3 Terrans already.
aaand another edit>
Innovation lost to Stats 1-3. Is Inno slumping as well? C'mon. Also lost to Parting 2-5. Terran beats Protoss all the time. Except when you're Innovation and you play Stats or Parting (didn't saw the games, just checked Inno's page on the aligulac)
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Northern Ireland26136 Posts
On September 03 2020 13:30 RandomPlayer416 wrote:Show nested quote +On September 03 2020 12:48 bela.mervado wrote:
dude you are bad at TvP
and you are a cunt
just git gud
check like every other TvP and see the 4 hellion drop getting 10+ probe kills
you can proxy the starport
and even if that is scouted/killed, you can build the medivacs at home
and follow it up with a 2 mine drop into the other side of their base
at >your< level tosses can't use disruptors
but you can land the whole screen wide EMP on them easily
then you just stim and a-move
terran easy race
stop rewatching A*ilo vods
LOL this is what you get every single time. I bet this guy is in gold league. "whole screen emp" "just stim and a-move" "cunt" "git gud" Even if a hellion drop is fortunate enough to get "10+ probes" which they never do *at my level*, the protoss player is STILL ahead on probes and your drop is basically a trade. Did you ever think that if EVERY player does a 4 hellion drop that by now even the most brain dead protoss player knows the timing and when to expect it and how to handle it?? There is literally nothing to be said to people like you, you're incapable of having a discussion and just throw out insults when someone says something you dont like.
What exactly do you expect to get if you say a matchup is unwinnable against evidence to the contrary and that you leave every TvP match and report your opponents?
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On September 03 2020 19:21 deacon.frost wrote:Show nested quote +On September 03 2020 19:19 Harris1st wrote:On September 03 2020 18:51 deacon.frost wrote:On September 03 2020 16:32 Harris1st wrote:On September 02 2020 23:25 deacon.frost wrote:Terran beats Protoss all the time Somebody send this to the 3 Terrans who just got knocked out of the Code S Edit> And not to mention the ESL Open where Neeb won over 2 T(semi & finals). I hope you are not serious! Neeb won the games where he was the favorite, like he should have. Nothing to do with balance here GSL Terrans lost the games where they were underdogs, like they should have. Nothing to do with balance here I really can't tell since you clown face every single one of your posts Taeja v Creator - Taeja was the underdog? AGAINST CREATOR? Special v Neeb - Special was the underdog? Seriously? Are we both talking about THE Special? Hey, Terrans are destroying Protoss players everywhere and if they're not that's because it doesn't fit our purpose they're underdogs so much even the OPness of Terran didn't help! Edit> Creator was supposed to be the weakest player of the RO24 and he outplayed Taeja in a MU which was supposed to be against Protoss. Seriously. I'd consider Neeb the favorite vs Special. Yes Neeb was slumping, but so is Special IMO ( recent source: Dreamhack LATAM, where he barely, won coming from the LB. In GSL he was pretty bad, too) Neither Taeja nor Creator was supposed to advance in that group. Taeja played horrible vs Creator None of these indicate any kind of imbalance IMHO Now if Nightmare, Hurricane, Zoun and to some degree Patience advance, we may have something to talk about look up at the edit #2. If Terran is so stronk it should give the players at least some advantage. Not saying winning advantage but at least some. Didn't happen to Spear nor Taeja nor Special. That are 3 Terrans already. aaand another edit> Innovation lost to Stats 1-3. Is Inno slumping as well? C'mon. Also lost to Parting 2-5. Terran beats Protoss all the time. Except when you're Innovation and you play Stats or Parting (didn't saw the games, just checked Inno's page on the aligulac)
At this point I'm pretty sure TvP is balanced.
We have multiple Terrans whining here that Toss OP and we have multiple Protoss whining Terran OP. That leaves me with the only conclussion: Nerf Zerg
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As a Zerg player it's kind of unenjoyable to see Terran in such a weak state at the moment, this isn't too unexpected considering Protoss has been receiving quite a few minor buffs while Zerg is suffering from a few minor nerfs, but for Zerg to be nerfed and TvZ to still be so in Zerg's favor is really a testament to the problem.
Probably time to lay on the buffs for Terran, I wouldn't mind the balance team revisiting things like merging vehicle/aerial weapons and armor again to maybe open up some more synergy between the compositions. Something kind of on the small side wouldn't hurt, and if that doesn't push the win rates up, something small again.
Balance is close but now we are bearing the full brunt of the games economy and macro mechanics coming back to haunt us. Things like MULE, Inject and Warp Gate have fundamentally made balance a serious challenge, and with the faster economy start has only exasperated the issue.
Personally I wouldn't mind a more global change like reverting the starting worker count to 10. It's been made clearly obvious that Zerg benefits the most heavily, since that change is huge and probably won't happen, lets focus on some cost/numbers/upgrade buffs for Terran, lets focus on things that can be done.
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NERF EVERYTHING!!! Clearly the game is in a horrible state right now. Completely unplayable as we can see here http://aligulac.com/misc/balance/ and in tournament distribution....lol.
If anything blizz should try to buff underused units and upgrades on all races to make the game have more viable strats and unit comps. Balancewise its fine, its just that every race has too few backbone unit comps.
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I think the following changes would be good for the game.
1. Increase cannon build time by 5 seconds. Cannon rushing is not OP but it is an awful experience to play against for normal players. This will improve the life of ladder players without having much impact on pro level.
2. Maybe decree tank build time by 5 seconds? It would make Terran slightly better in the midgame which means Zerg and Protoss can not rush into the late game.
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On September 03 2020 23:50 Decendos wrote:NERF EVERYTHING!!! Clearly the game is in a horrible state right now. Completely unplayable as we can see here http://aligulac.com/misc/balance/ and in tournament distribution....lol. If anything blizz should try to buff underused units and upgrades on all races to make the game have more viable strats and unit comps. Balancewise its fine, its just that every race has too few backbone unit comps.
Your link to balance says that the game is more balanced now compared to the average throughout SC2 history. It kind of negates your narrative.
Add to that your comment of buffing underused units. That is something that the balance team has been doing continuously. Most recent was the void ray. We've had tweaks to reapers, ultralisk, carriers, battlecruisers, hydralisks. + Show Spoiler +Notice how every race has had changes to underused units?
More unit comps are viable now than almost all of SC2. More different units are used than ever before, incorporated in games with different "standard" compositions.
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EPT
