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On August 31 2020 06:00 BisuDagger wrote:
Artosis talked about how Terran can raise buildings to seal walls versus zerg, but protoss can't. I often find that walling from ling runbys in the midgame has been a tough problem to deal with. But in WoL and HoTs protoss could always wall of with a sentry if needed. Ravagers have been a major nerf to the sentry forcefield. So if we are talking about changes in response to what he said, I'd love to see forcefields readdressed in a future patch. Like others said previously in this thread, forcefield HP might be the best solution.
Talking about more radical changes I'd like to see something which increases the vision around the base for P and T. The creep spread of Z gives so much vision that there is ample time to reach and the player is never really surprised by anything coming in via the front door. Something similar for P and T would decrease the risk of something like a ling runby prematurely ending a whole match (or a finals, as it were).
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On August 30 2020 21:33 Vision_ wrote:Poll: Do you think warp-gate should :be removed (5) 45% increase cost regarding teleport distance ? (4) 36% revert, i.e increase cooldown regarding teleport distance ? (1) 9% be less effective (1) 9% 11 total votes Your vote: Do you think warp-gate should : (Vote): revert, i.e increase cooldown regarding teleport distance ?
(Vote): increase cost regarding teleport distance ?
(Vote): be less effective
(Vote): be removed
I've always thought warp gate should function similar to the nydus network. You would transform a gateway into a warp gate, load already made units into it, then warp then out onto the map via pylon or prism. Maybe you could transport probes and immortals this way?
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On August 30 2020 07:20 Snakestyle11 wrote:
I have an idea to fix this game:
- Hire a balance team that plays this game at high GM level for years, preferably also played broodwar before too, so they can understand what makes a good RTS meta game. (StarCraft2 has no unit balance anymore, its all about early/mid game economic damage. Units are all about avoiding arrmy and killing workers, sure gives us 50% win ratio, but feels broken).
Army vs Army at even economy is super imbalanced right now.
- Undo the last 3 years of changes. Fix the game from there.
No offense meant, I just feel like patch after patch, more gimmicks are added that break the game.
Blizzard doesnt want to invest that kind of budget into this game. They'd have to pay said pro-players much more than they would earn streaming. Given the large gaps between balance patches they'd all have to be free-lancers. Kinda like people who do paid surveys.
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On August 31 2020 06:00 BisuDagger wrote:
Artosis talked about how Terran can raise buildings to seal walls versus zerg, but protoss can't. I often find that walling from ling runbys in the midgame has been a tough problem to deal with. But in WoL and HoTs protoss could always wall of with a sentry if needed. Ravagers have been a major nerf to the sentry forcefield. So if we are talking about changes in response to what he said, I'd love to see forcefields readdressed in a future patch. Like others said previously in this thread, forcefield HP might be the best solution.
I think i suggested this weeks ago. But of course it goes un-noticed and then someone with credibility mentions it and it becomes a topic of discussion.
Maybe some people need to be more accepting of ideas regardless of where they're coming from.
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Northern Ireland27477 Posts
On August 31 2020 09:38 RandomPlayer416 wrote:Show nested quote +On August 31 2020 06:00 BisuDagger wrote:
Artosis talked about how Terran can raise buildings to seal walls versus zerg, but protoss can't. I often find that walling from ling runbys in the midgame has been a tough problem to deal with. But in WoL and HoTs protoss could always wall of with a sentry if needed. Ravagers have been a major nerf to the sentry forcefield. So if we are talking about changes in response to what he said, I'd love to see forcefields readdressed in a future patch. Like others said previously in this thread, forcefield HP might be the best solution. I think i suggested this weeks ago. But of course it goes un-noticed and then someone with credibility mentions it and it becomes a topic of discussion. Maybe some people need to be more accepting of ideas regardless of where they're coming from.
Agree, alas this is the way of the world. It’s been quite a popular idea and I’m not sure who first came up with it, but I’ve definitely repeated it and it’s got some positive feedback.
My own ideas less so haha
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Bisutopia19399 Posts
On August 31 2020 09:38 RandomPlayer416 wrote:Show nested quote +On August 31 2020 06:00 BisuDagger wrote:
Artosis talked about how Terran can raise buildings to seal walls versus zerg, but protoss can't. I often find that walling from ling runbys in the midgame has been a tough problem to deal with. But in WoL and HoTs protoss could always wall of with a sentry if needed. Ravagers have been a major nerf to the sentry forcefield. So if we are talking about changes in response to what he said, I'd love to see forcefields readdressed in a future patch. Like others said previously in this thread, forcefield HP might be the best solution. I think i suggested this weeks ago. But of course it goes un-noticed and then someone with credibility mentions it and it becomes a topic of discussion. Maybe some people need to be more accepting of ideas regardless of where they're coming from.
I have brought this idea up several times over the past few years. Your post didn't get recognition probably because it's been heard before. All I did was find a way to make the suggestion relevant and I even gave you/anyone else with the idea in this thread credit. I'm sure many others thought about or even liked the suggestion, problem is it has been said enough times and doesn't create any good dialogue for debate.
TLDR, keep posting your ideas. Even if they don't create discussions in the thread, they are still appreciated. 
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On August 31 2020 20:40 BisuDagger wrote:Show nested quote +On August 31 2020 09:38 RandomPlayer416 wrote:On August 31 2020 06:00 BisuDagger wrote:
Artosis talked about how Terran can raise buildings to seal walls versus zerg, but protoss can't. I often find that walling from ling runbys in the midgame has been a tough problem to deal with. But in WoL and HoTs protoss could always wall of with a sentry if needed. Ravagers have been a major nerf to the sentry forcefield. So if we are talking about changes in response to what he said, I'd love to see forcefields readdressed in a future patch. Like others said previously in this thread, forcefield HP might be the best solution. I think i suggested this weeks ago. But of course it goes un-noticed and then someone with credibility mentions it and it becomes a topic of discussion. Maybe some people need to be more accepting of ideas regardless of where they're coming from. I have brought this idea up several times over the past few years. Your post didn't get recognition probably because it's been heard before. All I did was find a way to make the suggestion relevant and I even gave you/anyone else with the idea in this thread credit. I'm sure many others thought about or even liked the suggestion, problem is it has been said enough times and doesn't create any good dialogue for debate. TLDR, keep posting your ideas. Even if they don't create discussions in the thread, they are still appreciated.
I dunno. I think the difficulty for Toss to wall off is a legitimate concern. In that sense I prefer the idea of a shield battery being in or out of phase or so. If it's in phase it is solid and can heal. If it's out of phase it can be walked through but won't heal. Switching between the two is instant with no cooldown. Maybe being out of phase it is immune to damage or so too, to maybe create some interesting mechanics such as trying to phase out exactly when biles land but before lings can flood in to take advantage (and obviously if it's overcharged and then phases out, overcharge ends).
However, biles were designed specifically to deal with early walls. While it takes more than one bile to destroy a depot, ravagers are effective against early Terran walls as well. Reverting biles popping force fields seems like a change in the wrong direction too. Zerg need something before Ultra tech to get rid of forcefields, and bile is a good solution.
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Wow, people are literally whining about ling runby now.
I guess I have to wait a bit for the very deep theorycrafting which will come to the brillant conclusion that speed's speedling is inherently op since 2010 (or 1998?)
Anyway Cougar's suggestion looked cool.
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Even though there are balance problems to address, I still think the biggest problems in SC2 are the gimmicky design features. By the end of the season, when we know they're not making any balance patches anyway because it is too close to the World Championship, I would love to see them have the PTR showcase a version of Sc2 without:
- Offensive Protoss warp-ins (or at least only have slow ones)
- BC teleport
- Free Zerg units, SH in particular
- Nydus host (or at least replaced with something that's only on creep)
(and probably a few more that I forget)
It seems to me that these gimmicks, which negate the core principles of RTS gaming (the economy-unit relationship; army positioning; defender's advantage), are what's making the game less entertaining to watch as well as play. They are also gimmicks which make balancing extremely difficult in general. Because the fact that units can be put into completely different situations because of these gimmicks (like suddenly appearing in the opponents main) tilt their balance so much.
Let's try it blizzard!
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On August 31 2020 21:57 stilt wrote:
Wow, people are literally whining about ling runby now.
I guess I have to wait a bit for the very deep theorycrafting which will come to the brillant conclusion that speed's speedling is inherently op since 2010 (or 1998?)
Anyway Cougar's suggestion looked cool.
I don't see anybody moaning about ling runbys. A ling runby can be stopped by an attentive protoss player and a single sentry. Just like in 2010. Clearly walling off is still fine against runbys. But a solution to wall-off against roach-ravager threats without needing to full wall and later kill your own buildings would be interesting.
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On August 31 2020 21:57 stilt wrote:
Wow, people are literally whining about ling runby now.
I guess I have to wait a bit for the very deep theorycrafting which will come to the brillant conclusion that speed's speedling is inherently op since 2010 (or 1998?)
Anyway Cougar's suggestion looked cool.
It's not the ling runby that protoss players are frustrated about currently. It's the inability to early scout and be at least kinda safe. The walk-around ling rush strategy Stats and Trap lost to is incredibly difficult to scout correctly since it's identical to standard openers and there are multiple paths the lings can go down (in Trap's case he even scouted for this strategy with his adept but just barely missed the lings) and protoss has to rely on one relatively slow unit to scout it. At the same time, the protoss can't just leave their adept at home and not scout since there are a bunch of different potential builds off this same opener that require vastly different responses. There's this build, there's the ~3:30 speedling flood (several protoss died to this one last GSL), there's ravager busts, baneling busts, or the zerg could just play macro, all off the same looking opener.
The mothership core used to be the solution to this problem. It allowed protoss to scout and play at least somewhat safe at the same time. When they removed it this entire ability to scout and be safe went with it. They added batteries to compensate defensively but they never resolved anything for the other issues the mothership core compensated for. Now not only does protoss not have nearly as good scouting ability but now their entire survival for the first four minutes of the game comes down to keeping the one or two units they get pre-warpgate alive.
I never liked the mothership core but I honestly feel like they need to bring it back or provide some other solution to this issue.
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some reasonable things i would like to see:
-buff the pylon to at least some of its former SC1 glory
-take 50 max energy off queen
fanboy dreams:
-give mothership observer status
-4 baneling in an overlord = AA balloon bomb
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Are we even allowed to share opinions on the void ray changes?
Anytime I comment accurately on the state of TvP I get banned for it.
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Mexico2170 Posts
I think talking about a big re-design for warpgate is wasting our time.. At this point they are not going to change it. And it isn't that terrible honestly. I think it's a cool feature that makes protoss macro more distinct. The game can work with warpgate.
That being said... there are quite a few interesting ideas here. I really like the Warpgate as a nydus idea you can transform into warpgate and then units can come from there and be teleported to a pylon field, I think that would be an excellent change, for starcraft 3 that is.
Through out sc2 the warpgate suffered the following changes:
-Slow warp-in in pylons far from Nexus and gateways.
-No longer you can warp-in on the high ground.
-They reduced the pylon radius to make it harder to warp in on the highground.
- Increased research time.
-Nerfs to chronobust also changed when warpgate comes out.
These changes, while balanced at the time, I think broke Protoss a little bit. Reducing the pylon radius is utterly innecesary now that you can't warp in on the highground. Reverting this change would, imo, improve protoss walls and general base layout. Not that big of a deal though. Removing warpins on the highground was a good change.
However as another poster pointed out, slow warp in completely destroyed a lot of pushes for the protoss. Want to do a gateway push? You can't, you need to wait for prism. Want to do a little push with VR and army? you can't, you need to go robo tech! Want to do some pressure with adepts or blink (no-alllin necessary, just pressure? You cant cause you need to wait for robo. And not only way, but spend on it too.
Slow warp ins are SO BAD comparatively, that no one uses them. This basically removes most protoss agression until prism comes out, giving zerg a lot of piece of mind. What if you could upgrade pylons? You can click on a pylon and transform it into a "higher pylon" that has the fast warpgate tech? The cost and time of research could balance it out a little, while still coming faster than a prism withouth forcing you to go robo?
I think the mothership core also wasnt as terrible as people made it out to be.
Finally I really think they need to revert some warpgate nerfs or nerfs to protoss units in generals. In WoL and HotS Zergs had bad creep spread, overlord speed came way later too. Maps didn't give free vision to the zerg outside every natural base and behind the main. Zergs can scout very well now. I think a lot of the balance in the early days was because if the zerg knew what was coming, they could stop it pretty well (except things like the soul train), but a lot of the time they didn't know, or had incomplete informations.
Now, Protoss early agression is completely gone, and they can know when and what you will atack them 3 minutes before you do. That, alongside zerg being able to take half the map now as Zergs figured out better ways to defend, makes protoss early game and midgame non-existant. Protoss could fight on the lategame, but it is too far economically to do it.
Also the mothership should be a better unit. There no reason why it shouldn't. And there is no reason why it should be able to be pulled by the Viper.
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On September 01 2020 01:36 Ben... wrote:Show nested quote +On August 31 2020 21:57 stilt wrote:
Wow, people are literally whining about ling runby now.
I guess I have to wait a bit for the very deep theorycrafting which will come to the brillant conclusion that speed's speedling is inherently op since 2010 (or 1998?)
Anyway Cougar's suggestion looked cool. It's not the ling runby that protoss players are frustrated about currently. It's the inability to early scout and be at least kinda safe. The walk-around ling rush strategy Stats and Trap lost to is incredibly difficult to scout correctly since it's identical to standard openers and there are multiple paths the lings can go down (in Trap's case he even scouted for this strategy with his adept but just barely missed the lings) and protoss has to rely on one relatively slow unit to scout it. At the same time, the protoss can't just leave their adept at home and not scout since there are a bunch of different potential builds off this same opener that require vastly different responses. There's this build, there's the ~3:30 speedling flood (several protoss died to this one last GSL), there's ravager busts, baneling busts, or the zerg could just play macro, all off the same looking opener. The mothership core used to be the solution to this problem. It allowed protoss to scout and play at least somewhat safe at the same time. When they removed it this entire ability to scout and be safe went with it. They added batteries to compensate defensively but they never resolved anything for the other issues the mothership core compensated for. Now not only does protoss not have nearly as good scouting ability but now their entire survival for the first four minutes of the game comes down to keeping the one or two units they get pre-warpgate alive. I never liked the mothership core but I honestly feel like they need to bring it back or provide some other solution to this issue.
Terrans have same problem with removal of cliffs, you cant really scout zerg now, while zerg have like 5 differnt allins you can die to. Tho with terran you can sacrifice 1 scan if you suspect anything.
While with protoss and terran, once you see expand, you know you are safe, but thats not the case with zerg. I feel like something needs to be done about these allins, maybe nerf bane/corrise byle damage against buildings (add an upgrade similar to how cyclone gets double damage)
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Northern Ireland27477 Posts
On September 01 2020 05:12 [Phantom] wrote:
I think talking about a big re-design for warpgate is wasting our time.. At this point they are not going to change it. And it isn't that terrible honestly. I think it's a cool feature that makes protoss macro more distinct. The game can work with warpgate.
That being said... there are quite a few interesting ideas here. I really like the Warpgate as a nydus idea you can transform into warpgate and then units can come from there and be teleported to a pylon field, I think that would be an excellent change, for starcraft 3 that is.
Through out sc2 the warpgate suffered the following changes:
-Slow warp-in in pylons far from Nexus and gateways.
-No longer you can warp-in on the high ground.
-They reduced the pylon radius to make it harder to warp in on the highground.
- Increased research time.
-Nerfs to chronobust also changed when warpgate comes out.
These changes, while balanced at the time, I think broke Protoss a little bit. Reducing the pylon radius is utterly innecesary now that you can't warp in on the highground. Reverting this change would, imo, improve protoss walls and general base layout. Not that big of a deal though. Removing warpins on the highground was a good change.
However as another poster pointed out, slow warp in completely destroyed a lot of pushes for the protoss. Want to do a gateway push? You can't, you need to wait for prism. Want to do a little push with VR and army? you can't, you need to go robo tech! Want to do some pressure with adepts or blink (no-alllin necessary, just pressure? You cant cause you need to wait for robo. And not only way, but spend on it too.
Slow warp ins are SO BAD comparatively, that no one uses them. This basically removes most protoss agression until prism comes out, giving zerg a lot of piece of mind. What if you could upgrade pylons? You can click on a pylon and transform it into a "higher pylon" that has the fast warpgate tech? The cost and time of research could balance it out a little, while still coming faster than a prism withouth forcing you to go robo?
I think the mothership core also wasnt as terrible as people made it out to be.
Finally I really think they need to revert some warpgate nerfs or nerfs to protoss units in generals. In WoL and HotS Zergs had bad creep spread, overlord speed came way later too. Maps didn't give free vision to the zerg outside every natural base and behind the main. Zergs can scout very well now. I think a lot of the balance in the early days was because if the zerg knew what was coming, they could stop it pretty well (except things like the soul train), but a lot of the time they didn't know, or had incomplete informations.
Now, Protoss early agression is completely gone, and they can know when and what you will atack them 3 minutes before you do. That, alongside zerg being able to take half the map now as Zergs figured out better ways to defend, makes protoss early game and midgame non-existant. Protoss could fight on the lategame, but it is too far economically to do it.
Also the mothership should be a better unit. There no reason why it shouldn't. And there is no reason why it should be able to be pulled by the Viper.
I like your augmented pylon idea and some of your general thoughts. Sadly I think this would give more of an advantage to Protoss against Terrans where they’re already fine, than being a way to reliably be more aggressive against Zerg in a variety of ways, where it is more needed.
My issue with Warpgate aside from not hugely liking the mechanic due to it making balancing very difficult, is the lack of a tradeoff. Something like gateways producing faster vs warpgates doing slower but with the advantage of fast reinforcement, there’s a decision to be made there.
I mean you said yourself, chronos and warp gate times and high ground warps and all sorts of other things keep getting tweaked because they have to work around WG.
I think it is a pretty cool thing and fits Protoss racial lore and aesthetic. Just having it off the bat and as the core macro mechanic is a nightmare to balance around.
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Northern Ireland27477 Posts
On September 01 2020 05:12 RandomPlayer416 wrote:
Are we even allowed to share opinions on the void ray changes?
Anytime I comment accurately on the state of TvP I get banned for it.
What are your thoughts?
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All this started because I compared BW units with SC2 units hahaha.
I personally think warpgate as it is now is fine
I remember someone once posted and idea that normal gateways production speed should be similar/same to BW
But I really like my idea of the Carrier buff, just make it like the BW carrier exactly, cost, build time and stats. Then it can be a proper vialable late game Protoss unit
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On September 01 2020 07:22 Wombat_NornIron wrote:Show nested quote +On September 01 2020 05:12 RandomPlayer416 wrote:
Are we even allowed to share opinions on the void ray changes?
Anytime I comment accurately on the state of TvP I get banned for it. What are your thoughts?
Well the match up is just not winnable unless your opponent is 200-300 MMR below you and even then its still in protoss' favour. There is no real time that Terran has a chance to inflict any serious damage that a shield battery and stalkers cant defend against. With the cheap void rays its just another all in that you have to be ready for, another proxy you need to scout for and its all low risk for protoss. Its impossible to scout everything and it often results in playing safe on 2 bases, while protoss gets ahead.
Its just so unfair because as a Terran your strategy is telegraphed well in advance, but as a protoss with warp in, if you see the warp prism in your base or anywhere near it and you're even slightly out of position 95 times out of a 100 the game ends, 4 times they'll get greedy and lose the prism and you might be able to counter attack and the 1 time it wont work is when they don't attempt to warp prism harass you in which case they're bad and dont deserve to win.
I play all race's so hopefully I don't get banned for stating my opinion from my experiences playing both races. Its a real shame that I have resorted to insta-quitting every single TvP game that I get.
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Northern Ireland27477 Posts
On September 01 2020 08:26 AssyrianKing wrote:
All this started because I compared BW units with SC2 units hahaha.
I personally think warpgate as it is now is fine
I remember someone once posted and idea that normal gateways production speed should be similar/same to BW
But I really like my idea of the Carrier buff, just make it like the BW carrier exactly, cost, build time and stats. Then it can be a proper vialable late game Protoss unit
Carriers suck though in SC2, always have :p I tend to think they always will just given how SC2 works, although I wish they didn’t.
BW they’re cool and scary because they’re not coming out in a game where you can max out in sub 10 minutes, without restrictions on control groups etc. They’re very microable too. There’s a Carrier/Goliath dance made possible with using the leash range micro and cliffs vs trying to abuse the terrain and vision.
SC2 there’s some cool games involving them but they’re usually scrappy affairs with low unit counts. As things scale up there’s not much to do with Carriers apart from A-moving a big air blob, which isn’t terrible fun to do nor observe. There’s a lot more interesting unit engagement stuff when the ground terrain is actually a factor.
I’d like capital ships to be cooler, where one or two controlled well can impact a battle but it tends towards air blobs given how fast SC2’s economy explodes.
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EPT
